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Author Topic: How are icons different than the golden calf?  (Read 2925 times) Average Rating: 1
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #135 on: July 15, 2014, 01:57:27 PM »

Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.

Most humans understand that when somebody makes a good point that challenges somebody's beliefs that it is common to attack the source (which I am far from Mormon), rather than proving otherwise.  See this is a testimony, which will remain forever in internet archives (outside of this forum).   Redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to this.

I wish you took your own advice as well for your own sake.

It's obvious the bible you claim to follow, you disobey.  If you view Christ as God, you would obey his teachings.  This is so incredibly obvious.   Being "Eastern Orthodox" has become an idol to people, as they take the church as God - over God.  Otherwise you'd obey him.

You claim your own father was an Orthodox priest.  Did he worship any golden calves?

YES he did, as did I for a time.  I detest it.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #136 on: July 15, 2014, 01:59:47 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.
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« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2014, 02:01:40 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.

You do realize that Christian use of icons goes waaaaaaaay back before Nicea II?
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« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2014, 02:03:30 PM »

You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene

Because it clearly states in the scriptures that Paul was a Nazarene sect leader.  Paul by his own words stated he believed in the entire law.

Citations, please.

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:14 (Paul's words)
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
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« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2014, 02:04:52 PM »

In that case, one can argue that God allowed Israel to worship golden calves as well, ala Exodus 25.

God said not to build any images of animals, particularly those in heaven, on earth, under the sea, etc., but if you bow before the ark of the covenant, that's fine.  Because I am your God, and though I am a jealous God as I said in Exodus 20, I am a hypocritical God Yeshuaisiam implies from Exodus 25.
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« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2014, 02:06:11 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.

You do realize that Christian use of icons goes waaaaaaaay back before Nicea II?

Yes.

I've challenged the forum many times to show icons and/or liturgical use of icons pre 150AD.  Also, show me ANY text that speaks of icons pre 200A.D.   Icons are used very much in the church, ironically there are no icons anybody can find pre-150, and no texts pre 200 (and perhaps later).

200 years ago was 1814.  Think of how long 200ad was from the time of Christ.  Yet the church did not use icons nor write about them for a long time thereafter.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2014, 02:07:29 PM »

In that case, one can argue that God allowed Israel to worship golden calves as well, ala Exodus 25.

God said not to build any images of animals, particularly those in heaven, on earth, under the sea, etc., but if you bow before the ark of the covenant, that's fine.  Because I am your God, and though I am a jealous God as I said in Exodus 20, I am a hypocritical God Yeshuaisiam implies from Exodus 25.

God is infinite and God.

You are not supposed to murder, but the God that we worship had the Israelites attack cities.  God can do what he wants, and isn't to our judgment of hypocrisy.
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« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2014, 02:07:35 PM »

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

Wink

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.

Question: If you chose to excuse yourself from the part of the commandment where is says not to make any likeness of things on Earth, can you excuse us of the part where it says we can't bow down to them?

There is no commas in Hebrew my friend.

Besides, on your point, it is not me that needs to excuse you.

Exodus 20:4-5
Quote
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me...

Let me guess, in the Hebrew this is all one long sentence? That period indicates a complete thought at the end of verse 4. If you hold a consitant view, you are just as guilty of violating verse 4 as you claim we are of violating verse 5.
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« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2014, 02:14:04 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.

You do realize that Christian use of icons goes waaaaaaaay back before Nicea II?

Yes.

I've challenged the forum many times to show icons and/or liturgical use of icons pre 150AD.  Also, show me ANY text that speaks of icons pre 200A.D.   Icons are used very much in the church, ironically there are no icons anybody can find pre-150, and no texts pre 200 (and perhaps later).

200 years ago was 1814.  Think of how long 200ad was from the time of Christ.  Yet the church did not use icons nor write about them for a long time thereafter.

Yet you'll trust Epiphanius's description of the Nazarenes which was written nearly 350 years after the life Jesus?
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« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2014, 02:16:45 PM »

You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene

Because it clearly states in the scriptures that Paul was a Nazarene sect leader.  Paul by his own words stated he believed in the entire law.

Citations, please.

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:14 (Paul's words)
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Paul can believe in the Law in the Prophets. I believe in the Law and Prophets like I believe in the rest of the scriptures. It's what he says about the Law that's important:
Romans 3:20:
Quote
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2014, 02:24:33 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.

that triumphed in the presence of miracles and humility at least most of the times...
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« Reply #146 on: July 15, 2014, 02:26:26 PM »

In that case, one can argue that God allowed Israel to worship golden calves as well, ala Exodus 25.

God said not to build any images of animals, particularly those in heaven, on earth, under the sea, etc., but if you bow before the ark of the covenant, that's fine.  Because I am your God, and though I am a jealous God as I said in Exodus 20, I am a hypocritical God Yeshuaisiam implies from Exodus 25.

God is infinite and God.

You are not supposed to murder, but the God that we worship had the Israelites attack cities.  God can do what he wants, and isn't to our judgment of hypocrisy.

Now I'm confused, are you a Mormon or a Muslim?
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« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2014, 02:26:39 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.

You do realize that Christian use of icons goes waaaaaaaay back before Nicea II?

Yes.

I've challenged the forum many times to show icons and/or liturgical use of icons pre 150AD.  Also, show me ANY text that speaks of icons pre 200A.D.   Icons are used very much in the church, ironically there are no icons anybody can find pre-150, and no texts pre 200 (and perhaps later).

200 years ago was 1814.  Think of how long 200ad was from the time of Christ.  Yet the church did not use icons nor write about them for a long time thereafter.
Show us any New Testament Texts pre 150 AD.  Show us Churches pre 150 AD.  

As someone pegged you correctly-"only the absence of evidence is evidence."

The earliest Churches we have have icons in them, and the earliest New Testaments we have were written by Iconodules.

Think of how long 2014ad is from the time of Christ. Yet you expect us to believe your ideas jumbled in the 21st century on the 1st century.
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« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2014, 02:26:44 PM »

In that case, one can argue that God allowed Israel to worship golden calves as well, ala Exodus 25.

God said not to build any images of animals, particularly those in heaven, on earth, under the sea, etc., but if you bow before the ark of the covenant, that's fine.  Because I am your God, and though I am a jealous God as I said in Exodus 20, I am a hypocritical God Yeshuaisiam implies from Exodus 25.

God is infinite and God.

You are not supposed to murder, but the God that we worship had the Israelites attack cities.  God can do what he wants, and isn't [subject] to our judgment of hypocrisy.

This is a sick little heresy.
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« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2014, 02:29:31 PM »

You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene

Because it clearly states in the scriptures that Paul was a Nazarene sect leader.  Paul by his own words stated he believed in the entire law.

Citations, please.

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Acts 24:14 (Paul's words)
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Read Galatians on circumcision.
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« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2014, 02:32:37 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.
Doing your father's work I see. Matthew 23:15. John 8:44.

Stop lusting after our souls.
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« Reply #151 on: July 15, 2014, 02:33:06 PM »

Leviticus 26:1 You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.


Revelation 9:20-21 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.


Isaiah 44 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing?


Psalm 115 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them.


1 Corinthians 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Deuteronomy 29:17 And you have seen their detestable things, their idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold, which were among them.  (....cause these to stumble)


Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.  
(MY PRAISE to carved idols - this signifies people used idols in proxy to represent YHWH)

2 Kings 17:12 And they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, “You shall not do this.”


It is beautiful to see people interacting with holy departed like this, not cutting themselves off from God's invisible kingdom through unbelief, not cutting themselves to pieces by doubtful interpretations. It is beautiful and right. Thank you for the pictures, Yeshuaisiam.
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« Reply #152 on: July 15, 2014, 02:35:12 PM »

At least the women in those pictures are wearing headcoverings, amirite?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #153 on: July 15, 2014, 02:39:15 PM »

At least the women in those pictures are wearing headcoverings, amirite?  Roll Eyes

At least one isn't.  And I spy ankle flesh. 
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« Reply #154 on: July 15, 2014, 02:43:15 PM »

Leviticus 26:1 You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.


Revelation 9:20-21 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.


Isaiah 44 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing?


Psalm 115 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them.


1 Corinthians 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Deuteronomy 29:17 And you have seen their detestable things, their idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold, which were among them.  (....cause these to stumble)


Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.  
(MY PRAISE to carved idols - this signifies people used idols in proxy to represent YHWH)

2 Kings 17:12 And they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, “You shall not do this.”

"...For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;...For the bishop must be blameless, as God's steward;...holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers.
This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine...." St. Paul the Apostle to his consecrated successor bishop St. Titus, c. 60.
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« Reply #155 on: July 15, 2014, 02:44:03 PM »

Acts 24:5
For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

You realise this is someone else calling the group to which Paul belongs "the sect of the Nazarenes", right?  It's not Paul saying "I'm a Nazarene".  If I accept your logic, I'd have to say that Paul is an infidel because that's what Muslims call us, and Paul is one of our leaders.

And this is not to mention the fact that Nazarenes still exist, they just don't agree with your crackpot views.  I am a Nazarene.    

Quote
Acts 24:14 (Paul's words)
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Read Galatians.  All of it.  And then keep going.  
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« Reply #156 on: July 15, 2014, 02:50:22 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.
But you're not convincing anyone.
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« Reply #157 on: July 15, 2014, 02:52:08 PM »

Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.

Most humans understand that when somebody makes a good point that challenges somebody's beliefs that it is common to attack the source (which I am far from Mormon), rather than proving otherwise.  See this is a testimony, which will remain forever in internet archives (outside of this forum).   Redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to this.
yes, your redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to the Truth of Orthodoxy.

You haven't said what is your source.
First I need to know if you believe in the Torah including the book of Exodus and the 10 commandments.
I believe in the Pentateuch Christ read, the Apostles preached and their successors in His Body, the Church, has preserved.

If you follow the Torah the Sadduccees created, the Pharisees taught and their successors the Masorites preserved, I first need to know that you have the scar proving it.
You don't have to show me your scar.  I'll take your word on that.  But nothing else.
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« Reply #158 on: July 15, 2014, 02:59:12 PM »

The Fathers (do not call any man father)
"For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel."
St. Paul has begotten the Fathers who have begotten us.  As for the begetting of Jesusisamism.
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
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« Reply #159 on: July 15, 2014, 03:21:37 PM »

Honestly.

Why people waste time and energy typing replies to the same thread and arguments over and over is beyond me.

Yesh has rejected Orthodoxy, yet people keep trying to prove things to him. This is futile. He is not confused or lacking in knowledge. He knows. He just refuses to believe or see

It's a waste of time and big fancy Greek words.

Indeed.

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« Reply #160 on: July 15, 2014, 05:22:09 PM »

I wonder when he's going to get in touch with the people who publish dictionaries, in order to demand they take out the words 'father' and 'master.'

I mean, last month I got my Dad a 'Happy Father's Day' card, and I want to know if I should get him something different instead.
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« Reply #161 on: July 15, 2014, 06:00:55 PM »

I wonder when he's going to get in touch with the people who publish dictionaries, in order to demand they take out the words 'father' and 'master.'

I mean, last month I got my Dad a 'Happy Father's Day' card, and I want to know if I should get him something different instead.

"Begetter's Day" just doesn't have the same charm, does it?
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« Reply #162 on: July 15, 2014, 06:06:02 PM »

Yeshuaisiam,

Do you oppose the theology of relics?
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« Reply #163 on: July 15, 2014, 06:57:34 PM »

In that case, one can argue that God allowed Israel to worship golden calves as well, ala Exodus 25.

God said not to build any images of animals, particularly those in heaven, on earth, under the sea, etc., but if you bow before the ark of the covenant, that's fine.  Because I am your God, and though I am a jealous God as I said in Exodus 20, I am a hypocritical God Yeshuaisiam implies from Exodus 25.

God is infinite and God.

You are not supposed to murder, but the God that we worship had the Israelites attack cities.  God can do what he wants, and isn't [subject] to our judgment of hypocrisy.

This is a sick little heresy.

Ok , as usual no one is responding to Yesh, but please name the heresy of believing in Scripture. God kills, destroys, repents, has his followers do much worse.

You do realize the Bible is more than: God is love.

There is always hell, if we needed anything scandalous to mention about the treatment by the omnipotent of the not so omnipotent. But according to many here, the Bible gets hell wrong as well and it is simply, well:

God is love.

And what's with the treatment of Yesh in this thread? Name calling at the least, character assassination at the worst, from those who live in very transparent houses as well.

And a little honesty on the apologetics would be good. I'll help you:

Tradition.

Trying to reverse engineer the permissibility of icons outside of Christ from the OT is ludicrous. But as Yesh says, God wills as he wills and is not bound to even he Decalogue. 
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« Reply #164 on: July 15, 2014, 07:00:46 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.
But you're not convincing anyone.

From debate points, he is winning. Really, you all don't look so well standing your ground, remember you might be frustrated with Yesh, but the person first stumbling on to here just sees complaints, leaps of logic, and meanness from the Odox here.

From Yesh, Biblical and cool headed argument.
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« Reply #165 on: July 15, 2014, 07:06:03 PM »

I'm trying engage. I'm honestly interested in whether or not he accepts the theology of relics.

Both relics and iconography are natural and logical outcomes of our believe in the Incarnation, like light and heat from a lit candle. In other words, they are inevitable. If we truly believe God became man, and ponder deeply what that actually entails, what that tells us about the world we live in, then icons pour out of that. Yesh can't seem to get beyond surface issues and I'm wondering if he has tried to dig deeper than dates and OT references.

In connection with that, and with what you said about the Bible: as Orthodox Christians, we begin with Christ and the Gospels, not with the OT.
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« Reply #166 on: July 15, 2014, 07:21:21 PM »

I'm trying engage. I'm honestly interested in whether or not he accepts the theology of relics.

Both relics and iconography are natural and logical outcomes of our believe in the Incarnation, like light and heat from a lit candle.

They really aren't. Analogies aren't very helpful either.

The use of relics and icons are the outcome of culture, which in turns try to understand the very contradictions from which it springs. But this shouldn't bother Christians. What Christians shouldn't do is pretend these cultural practices which were relatively verboten in the OT somehow were there all the time and the incarnation allows form that latent material to surface and define what came before.

Look at most the ways people explain icons, they have no idea what is going on, whether  they discuss windows to heaven or prototypes. It's ridiculous. Or they relate them to family photos. Etc.

No one who understands icons in any way resembling the above should be defending them, because what they are defending are not icons, but rather religious artifacts.

But it's easier to mock Yesh who at least is relatively coherent on the matter. Wrong but coherent. Cause once you are just defending these religious artifacts then you just might be defending idols after all. And which might be worse:

Arguing against icons improperly?
Or
Arguing for idols convincingly?



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« Reply #167 on: July 15, 2014, 07:28:34 PM »

I'm trying engage. I'm honestly interested in whether or not he accepts the theology of relics.

Both relics and iconography are natural and logical outcomes of our believe in the Incarnation, like light and heat from a lit candle.

They really aren't.

The 7th ecumenical council disagrees.

Quote
Analogies aren't very helpful either.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto..."

Quote
The use of relics and icons are the outcome of culture, which in turns try to understand the very contradictions from which it springs. But this shouldn't bother Christians. What Christians shouldn't do is pretend these cultural practices which were relatively verboten in the OT somehow were there all the time and the incarnation allows form that latent material to surface and define what came before.

I didn't quite follow this, but don't entirely disagree with what I could grasp. I wouldn't say the use of icons and relics are the outcome of culture but are rather the outcome of being human. Humans venerate such things all the time, every day, because it's innate. Theologically, we do so because of the ramifications of the Word made flesh. The how of that is certainly conditioned by culture, but culture is not the source.

Quote
Look at most the ways people explain icons, they have no idea what is going on, whether  they discuss windows to heaven or prototypes. It's ridiculous. Or they relate them to family photos. Etc.

The explanations are found in the Fathers.
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« Reply #168 on: July 15, 2014, 07:37:12 PM »

Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?

You are right.  Sorry I was only concerned for your souls as I believe you have been deceived by an ancient pagan blended quasi Christian church which was the product of Nicea.

You do realize that Christian use of icons goes waaaaaaaay back before Nicea II?

Yes.

I've challenged the forum many times to show icons and/or liturgical use of icons pre 150AD.  Also, show me ANY text that speaks of icons pre 200A.D.   Icons are used very much in the church, ironically there are no icons anybody can find pre-150, and no texts pre 200 (and perhaps later).

200 years ago was 1814.  Think of how long 200ad was from the time of Christ.  Yet the church did not use icons nor write about them for a long time thereafter.
Show us any New Testament Texts pre 150 AD.  Show us Churches pre 150 AD.  

As someone pegged you correctly-"only the absence of evidence is evidence."

The earliest Churches we have have icons in them, and the earliest New Testaments we have were written by Iconodules.

Think of how long 2014ad is from the time of Christ. Yet you expect us to believe your ideas jumbled in the 21st century on the 1st century.

Prove it.

Show me a writing where they said they bowed to frescos, which are dated later anyway.
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« Reply #169 on: July 15, 2014, 07:53:57 PM »

Look, I can't argue with 20 people at once.

I'll just concede okay?

God said "Go ahead and bow down to images of Mary, saints, etc.,  and call your bishops master".   He fully recanted his own words and changed.

It's in the book of.... Well it's somewhere and it must just be because that's it.

He also told you directly to change all of his feasts, and that his only son Jesus Christ practiced his everlasting feasts at the wrong time, as well as his apostles.

It's in the book of.... Well it's somewhere and because Orthodoxy is the one true church and that's it.

You win.  I lose.

Unfortunately, I'm excommunicated already, via the forum, and via church cannon.  It applies to me because I worshiped with heretics before, but it does not apply to your own masters in ecumenism.

I'll go back into the tomb now, and pay my indulgences and homage to my pagan saints who are actually Christians because the church said so.

Hopefully at some time, I'll be re-united in the communion of the church, if my Holy master and bishop lets me.  He'll only do it if I bow down and pay homage to the precious and holy images of saints, gods, and metal castings.  But first I must confess to him and my erroneous ways of reading something called the bible, which I will put away.   After all the church wrote the entire bible, they should know.

If they could allow, I'd love to join them soon for Sunday worship, because the 4th commandment doesn't apply to me anymore, and Jesus, Paul, and others were all in error for preaching on such days as Sabbaths of all things.  Silly them.

Also, I can't wait to join the church once again for Passover (Pascha), which is no longer on everlasting Nisan 14, but the Sunday AFTER Nisan 14th, because Polycarp, the Apostles, Jesus,  and much of the Jewish history of the one true church was actually wrong.  Holy Christian St. Constantine made sure to keep it on the venerable day of the sun, which is correct, because he is Holy.   He had every right to execute his wife and son, and keep pagan Gods on his architecture and coins because he is St. Constantine the Great - and that's saying a lot.  Anybody who is great get's a free pass, and he is Eastern Orthodox, so it's even a greater free pass.

You guys got me, thanks for the education.  You win.
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« Reply #170 on: July 15, 2014, 07:58:00 PM »

Huh? The saints are pagan?

Why isn't he banned already? Alfred Persson is.
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« Reply #171 on: July 15, 2014, 07:58:33 PM »

Bitter much?
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« Reply #172 on: July 15, 2014, 08:11:08 PM »

"Pagan" is not a synonym for "non-Hebrew" (that would traditionally be "gentile"); and even true pagans (i.e., idolators) were never (from the beginning of the world till now) called to come to Moses but to God (although at some points some did come to Moses and were welcome to). Each people-group (tribe, nation, kinsmen, whatever you prefer) has its own history, customs, and relationship with God (e.g., "Have not I brought up Israel from Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor? and the Syrians from Kir?"). Jesus, Iesous, Yeshua, Ishu -- the Christ of God -- is beyond such divisions.
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« Reply #173 on: July 15, 2014, 08:12:37 PM »

Look, I can't argue with 20 people at once.

IMO, it's clear you came to stir the pot, not to actually discuss, debate, etc.  You had an itch.  That's it. 

If not, then you absolutely don't have to argue with twenty people at once.  You can start by answering simple questions, such as:

So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

If they knew that "YHWH whom they could not see" brought them out of Egypt, where did they get the idea to depict him as a calf?
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« Reply #174 on: July 15, 2014, 08:20:12 PM »

Huh? The saints are pagan?

Why isn't he banned already? Alfred Persson is.
Alfred Persson was banned for doing much worse than Yesh has ever done. At least Yesh has, for the most part, refrained from attacking persons, and Yesh does engage those arguments that disagree with his.
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« Reply #175 on: July 15, 2014, 08:25:46 PM »

Well, he's attacked an entire church, by saying the saints are really pagan.

Whether he wants to admit it or not, he's doing exactly what Alfred did:
Proselytizing. His last couple long posts should show you that, not to mention hundreds before it.

Maybe you enjoy hearing the saints called pagan. I don't.

You can do or not do whatever you want, but he's a terrible guest, at best.

By the way, no, he does not always engage other posters. See his refusal to answer Mor Ephrem's last question in this very thread.
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« Reply #176 on: July 15, 2014, 08:29:30 PM »

Well, he's attacked an entire church, by saying the saints are really pagan.

Whether he wants to admit it or not, he's doing exactly what Alfred did:
Proselytizing. His last couple long posts should show you that, not to mention hundreds before it.

Maybe you enjoy hearing the saints called pagan. I don't.

You can do or not do whatever you want, but he's a terrible guest, at best.

By the way, no, he does not always engage other posters. See his refusal to answer Mor Ephrem's last question in this very thread.
I don't always engage other posters, so I fail to see your point. Part of the problem with Alfred was that he NEVER engaged other posters.
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« Reply #177 on: July 15, 2014, 08:32:45 PM »

Not true. Alfred did post a few direct responses and talk a little bit about where he lived and such. I remember kidding him once about how there was an Orthodox church close to where he lived, and he said he'd passed it but would not go there.
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« Reply #178 on: July 15, 2014, 08:34:18 PM »

Not true. Alfred did post a few direct responses and talk a little bit about where he lived and such. I remember kidding him once about how there was an Orthodox church close to where he lived, and he said he'd passed it but would not go there.
Considering that your request that Yesh be banned is essentially a request for admin/moderator action, I ask that if you really want Yesh banned you make your case to the moderator team privately and stop pushing your case for a ban on this thread. Thank you.
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« Reply #179 on: July 15, 2014, 08:35:18 PM »

Well, he's attacked an entire church, by saying the saints are really pagan.

Whether he wants to admit it or not, he's doing exactly what Alfred did:
Proselytizing. His last couple long posts should show you that, not to mention hundreds before it.

Maybe you enjoy hearing the saints called pagan. I don't.

You can do or not do whatever you want, but he's a terrible guest, at best.

By the way, no, he does not always engage other posters. See his refusal to answer Mor Ephrem's last question in this very thread.

I have a feeling the Church can handle Yeshuaisiam's accusations.
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