Author Topic: How are icons different than the golden calf?  (Read 13221 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2014, 02:25:42 AM »
In answer to the OP:

Golden calf: Hebrews rebelling against their new law because God whom they could not trust wasn't good enough to them in the wilderness. Icons: Indo-European Christians embracing their new faith by turning their eyes toward God and the God-bearing fathers full of trust in His goodness.

Better Hebrew similes for the icons would be (and I'm sure someone in the thread has gone over these) Moses' serpent, the cherubim woven into the Tabernacle walls, the ephod of the High Priest, and so on-- The Mosaic rites were rich with imagery and tangible meaning (and were themselves icons of the Fulfillment; but that's a little different).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2014, 02:25:48 AM »

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

I've heard that they laugh at Protestants mostly, for having views about God that are too foreign to the Hebrew scriptures to be taken as their fulfillment.

Protestants are weaker.
Orthodox have a longer and 'wiser' history as do Roman Catholics, but they are still considered ridiculous.

The early Christians converted many Jews & Gentiles.   Why can't Jews still be easily converted?  Something changed.

Easily converted?  That not what the Bible says.  What scripture do you depend on again?

Here we have EO Christians who don't even know the foundation of the Christian faith, or that they (as gentiles) are part of Ephraim, the ones God divorced.... The divorce annulled through what? Death of a spouse. (Yeshua)   We have Paul's writings grossly misunderstood (I understand why Peter called them difficult), and people making excuses to disobey God because to accept their theologian's scriptural heresy.
EO Christians have no need of knowing your fanciful delusions on the meaning of our Bible, as in the main, the delusions will die with you, and the Church will continue on as she has for millenia.

Seriously, kissing images of St. _____.   When God told us not to make them or bow to them....

God told us to pay no heed to false prophets.

Different times.

Oh? Changing your preaching, are you. 

Sure they were torn up, but they converted.  Unlike today, where to get a Jew to convert to EO is much rarer than you can imagine, much less many.
I've met many, and know of many more.  So you are as ignorant of the present as you are of the past.  That doesn't bode well for much of a future for your innovations.

Thanks for calling me a false prophet.  I was merely quoting the scriptures you claim to respect, from the words of God you claim to worship.
II Peter 3:16.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2014, 02:25:56 AM »
You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2014, 02:27:59 AM »
Here we have EO Christians who don't even know the foundation of the Christian faith...

The apostles and the prophets?

Spin me this one.

https://faculty.biu.ac.il/~testsm/Angels_Intermed.html
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2014, 02:29:03 AM »
On top of that, violate Yeshua's words and refer to my bishop as "master".  

Sound's like an awfully bad plan.

Like having a religion with 2 Gods.   :o  Did Jesus say that one can't serve 2 Masters - how do you serve 2 Gods?

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2014, 02:29:58 AM »

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

I've heard that they laugh at Protestants mostly, for having views about God that are too foreign to the Hebrew scriptures to be taken as their fulfillment.

Protestants are weaker.
Orthodox have a longer and 'wiser' history as do Roman Catholics, but they are still considered ridiculous.

The early Christians converted many Jews & Gentiles.   Why can't Jews still be easily converted?  Something changed.

Here we have EO Christians who don't even know the foundation of the Christian faith, or that they (as gentiles) are part of Ephraim, the ones God divorced.... The divorce annulled through what? Death of a spouse. (Yeshua)   We have Paul's writings grossly misunderstood (I understand why Peter called them difficult), and people making excuses to disobey God because to accept their theologian's scriptural heresy.

Seriously, kissing images of St. _____.   When God told us not to make them or bow to them....

Originally, all the Christians were Jews.

I know some Jews who converted in my life, also I know a Christian women who married a Jew and converted to his faith.

James , it has been said never changed his Jewish beliefs or customs of the law, but he accepted his brother Jesus after the resurrection as his Lord and Savior, there were many points that were not in agreement, but they accepted those differences. James thought they should all keep the Jewish customs and Paul wanted to make it easier for Gentiles.

 It really has not changed much except the Jewish Christians ended up dying out for many reasons.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:31:36 AM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2014, 02:33:04 AM »
...

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

Go to a Jewish synagogue (or even a Jewish grocery) and present your claim and see what they say. Most of the Yeshua-spouting homeschoolers I've talked to don't even know what it means to keep kosher. It's a ridiculous fad.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2014, 02:34:25 AM »
...

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

Go to a Jewish synagogue (or even a Jewish grocery) and present your claim and see what they say. Most of the Yeshua-spouting homeschoolers I've talked to don't even know what it means to keep kosher. It's a ridiculous fad.

Jews can't stand Messianic Christians so that'd be pretty funny to witness.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2014, 02:37:47 AM »
Okay.

Felix said Paul was a leader of a Nazarene sect.
Paul said he believes in the law.

Epiphanius said what he said in Panarion 29.

So what you want me to do is put down history, shut up,

no, I want you to shut up since you don't know history, and to try to listen for a change and perhaps learn.
trust the theologians, ignore he everlasting feasts of God, accept pagan influence feasts by pagan "saints", and on top of that, venerate idols, twist the 4th commandment to befit the EO church....
II Peter 3:16.

On top of that, violate Yeshua's words and refer to my bishop as "master".

"For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."
"Amen! Amen! I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives the One who sent Me.”

I'd get into the issue of "Master" in Greek, but your ignorance would get in the way of that as well.

Sound's like an awfully bad plan.
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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2014, 02:41:32 AM »
Okay.

Felix said Paul was a leader of a Nazarene sect.

You're right he did (Acts 24:5):
Quote
For we have found this man a plague, a creator of dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

Paul said he believes in the law.

You're right he did (Romans 3:20):
Quote
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Epiphanius said what he said in Panarion 29.

You're right he did (from Panarion 29):
Quote
And the holy apostle did not disclaim the name, not to profess the Nazoraean sect, but he was glad
to own the name his adversaries' malice had applied to him for Christ's sake.... And no wonder the apostle admitted to being a Nazoraean! In
those days everyone called Christians this because of the city of Nazareth, there was no other usage of the name then
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:43:34 AM by Sam G »
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2014, 02:42:20 AM »
...

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

Go to a Jewish synagogue (or even a Jewish grocery) and present your claim and see what they say. Most of the Yeshua-spouting homeschoolers I've talked to don't even know what it means to keep kosher. It's a ridiculous fad.

Jews can't stand Messianic Christians so that'd be pretty funny to witness.

Even a traditional Messianic synagogue wouldn't know what to make of the fad I'm referring to. A loose group of Dominionist homeschoolers who've gotten bored of acting out Little House on the Prairie and have decided to role-play Judaism in the most uninformed and unpunctilious fashion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2014, 02:47:10 AM »

I'd get into the issue of "Master" in Greek, but your willful ignorance would get in the way of that as well.


Fixed it for you.  ;)
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Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2014, 02:48:42 AM »
I was wondering when Master/Despota would come into play in this thread. It took longer than usual.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2014, 02:49:41 AM »

I'd get into the issue of "Master" in Greek, but your willful ignorance would get in the way of that as well.


Fixed it for you.  ;)
Thanks.  Must be my bed time that I forgot it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2014, 02:50:30 AM »
Okay.

Felix said Paul was a leader of a Nazarene sect.

You're right he did (Acts 24:5):
Quote
For we have found this man a plague, a creator of dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

Paul said he believes in the law.

You're right he did (Romans 3:20):
Quote
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


Epiphanius said what he said in Panarion 29.

You're right he did (from Panarion 29):
Quote
And the holy apostle did not disclaim the name, not to profess the Nazoraean sect, but he was glad
to own the name his adversaries' malice had applied to him for Christ's sake.... And no wonder the apostle admitted to being a Nazoraean! In
those days everyone called Christians this because of the city of Nazareth, there was no other usage of the name then

Bravo.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2014, 03:02:08 AM »

I'd get into the issue of "Master" in Greek, but your willful ignorance would get in the way of that as well.


Fixed it for you.  ;)
Thanks.  Must be my bed time that I forgot it.

 ;D
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2014, 03:43:55 AM »
Once again, boys and girls:

Not all who wander are lost.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2014, 08:32:38 AM »
How was the ark of the covenant different than the golden calf?

We see in Exodus 25 that the people made a mercy seat with representations of cherubims on it.

Then you shall make a mercy-seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its width. You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy-seat. Make one cherub at one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy-seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy-seat with their wings. They shall face each other; the faces of the cherubim shall be turned towards the mercy-seat. You shall put the mercy-seat on the top of the ark; and in the ark you shall put the covenant* that I shall give you. There I will meet you, and from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the covenant, I will deliver to you all my commands for the Israelites.

...

and in Chapter 30

Once a year Aaron shall perform the rite of atonement on its horns. Throughout your generations he shall perform the atonement for it once a year with the blood of the atoning sin-offering. It is most holy to the Lord.

So here we have PRIESTS who perform RITES in front of IDOLS. They placed the blood of atoning sin-offerings in front of the idols, they burnt incense in front of the idols.  How is this any different than the golden calf? Not only that, but there were images of cherubims ALL OVER the tabernacle. They had incense burned in front of them and sacrifices done before them.  Is it possible that the Tabernacle and Temple worship were the REAL reason God judged Israel?

Hmmm, the plot thickens...

So you are questioning the very Hebrew roots of the Christian church then?

It is interesting how God specifically told them how to make the ark.  I mean you are questioning God himself vs. his commandments.

In my world if God tells me to do something I do it even if I don't understand it.

Also which judgment of Israel do you refer to.
God specifically told His Church to use icons at the Seventh Ecumenical Council. Are you questioning God Himself?
God bless!

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2014, 09:45:24 AM »
God specifically told His Church to use icons at the Seventh Ecumenical Council. Are you questioning God Himself?

But TT, the Seventh Ecumenical Council wasn't held before the second century. Yesh ain't interested in anything the Church has said after that, especially after the Edict of Toleration was issued by St Constantine.  ;) :P ::)
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2014, 11:02:48 AM »
If kissing icons is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2014, 11:07:57 AM »
Yesh, the Greek word eikona means image. What language was the NT originally written, again?

Pennsylvania Deutsch

Another mean post by Kelly.

Image is not a problem.  
Was Jesus God?  Yes.
Was Jesus God's image?  Yes.

Was Jesus a piece of wood painted by man (do not MAKE)?  NO.

No, but Jesus consecrated this "piece of wood"(the cross) when he assumed it in his death who became the icon of Salvation (the cross/ the crucified Christ). As some elder(father?) said Christ is one with the Cross.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2014, 11:11:29 AM »
Welcome Back Again Yesh.

What in real life made you so grouchy you decided to come back and try (for the billionth time) again with the same thought topic?



He is struggling. It is like this: He has an Orthodox magnet in him but he does not want it for whatever reason that he has. So, he comes back and tries (for the trillionth time) to fight the pull of the Orthodox magnet.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2014, 11:17:21 AM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2014, 11:23:19 AM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.
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Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2014, 11:26:39 AM »
We see in exodus 32, that the people made a golden calf in representation of YHWH.

KJV - BEGIN QUOTE:
32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.   ****NOTE "Lord"  used here is לַיהוָ֖ה which means YHWH

6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
END QUOTE

So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

How is this different than icons? There are candles and incense (burt offerings) to them.  They are revered, bowed to and venerated.

Is the Orthodox church building altars in front of images (in proxy) of God, like Aaron did?

A distorted image of God.. God is not a bull/calf... God became a man Jesus, so representing God as Jesus is a right representation if you believe Christianity. The bull cult was common on that time in the middle east in many cultures and some say the Israelits were trying to revive the old cult of Apis Bull, or the Egyptian religion. If u ask me the "golden calf" is a complex issue that needs more investigation is also mention on the time of the Israelite kings. The point is the bull represents a distorted image of God, while Jesus doesn't if you believe Christianity.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2014, 12:04:21 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2014, 12:59:31 PM »
You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene

Because it clearly states in the scriptures that Paul was a Nazarene sect leader.  Paul by his own words stated he believed in the entire law.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2014, 01:00:24 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2014, 01:02:18 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.
I don't see anything in Scripture commenting on veneration. He says don't make any likeness for yourself.  Using a camera is making a likeness for yourself.

If you are going to be an iconoclast, at least do it right.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:02:49 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2014, 01:05:01 PM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.

Most humans understand that when somebody makes a good point that challenges somebody's beliefs that it is common to attack the source (which I am far from Mormon), rather than proving otherwise.  See this is a testimony, which will remain forever in internet archives (outside of this forum).   Redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to this.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:07:28 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #120 on: July 15, 2014, 01:08:34 PM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.

Most humans understand that when somebody makes a good point that challenges somebody's beliefs that it is common to attack the source (which I am far from Mormon), rather than proving otherwise.  See this is a testimony, which will remain forever in internet archives (outside of this forum).   Redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to this.

I wish you took your own advice as well for your own sake.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #121 on: July 15, 2014, 01:11:14 PM »
Kinda hard kicking against the goads, ain't it, Yesh?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #122 on: July 15, 2014, 01:19:59 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.
I don't see anything in Scripture commenting on veneration. He says don't make any likeness for yourself.  Using a camera is making a likeness for yourself.

If you are going to be an iconoclast, at least do it right.  ;)

It's funny the logic people use to justify sin.  If I am sinning by using an avatar (non idol nor for veneration) then I would stand guilty.  If you believe your accusation to me, there exists hypocrisy.   But of course this is sarcasm, which ridiculously compares a non-revered image not set before altars NOT in representation of anything to do with worship with:


The Fathers (do not call any man father)
Made an image of things in the likeness of things in heaven and bowed down to them. (against commandment)

They offered burnt offerings to them (as to the Golden calf).

To compare a digital forum avatar to obvious reverence to images in church is absolutely ridiculous.... Unless of course you guys have started to venerate screen icons....  I'm sure that will be next.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #123 on: July 15, 2014, 01:22:18 PM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.

Most humans understand that when somebody makes a good point that challenges somebody's beliefs that it is common to attack the source (which I am far from Mormon), rather than proving otherwise.  See this is a testimony, which will remain forever in internet archives (outside of this forum).   Redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to this.

I wish you took your own advice as well for your own sake.

It's obvious the bible you claim to follow, you disobey.  If you view Christ as God, you would obey his teachings.  This is so incredibly obvious.   Being "Eastern Orthodox" has become an idol to people, as they take the church as God - over God.  Otherwise you'd obey him.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #124 on: July 15, 2014, 01:23:23 PM »
Kinda hard kicking against the goads, ain't it, Yesh?

Following scripture is supposed to be hard.   Unless taking up a cross and following him is easy.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2014, 01:24:26 PM »
You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene

Because it clearly states in the scriptures that Paul was a Nazarene sect leader.  Paul by his own words stated he believed in the entire law.

Citations, please.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2014, 01:24:31 PM »
Thank Yahweh that you're here to show us the godly path.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2014, 01:26:14 PM »
Yesh, it should be obvious after many years of your futile attempts to convince us that you are just NOT going to persuade us to embrace your iconoclasm. So why do you keep coming back to hit us yet again with the same old hackneyed arguments? Didn't Jesus also say that if one town won't receive you, that you are to leave the town, shaking the dust off your feet as you depart? Why do you not obey that commandment of our Lord?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2014, 01:28:48 PM »
To whomever keeps using the thread tag function to post silly off-topic phrases or ad hominems, that's not what the tag function is for. If you won't or can't say what you want in this thread, don't use the thread tags to say it anonymously.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:30:59 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #129 on: July 15, 2014, 01:38:12 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.
I don't see anything in Scripture commenting on veneration. He says don't make any likeness for yourself.  Using a camera is making a likeness for yourself.

If you are going to be an iconoclast, at least do it right.  ;)

It's funny the logic people use to justify sin.  If I am sinning by using an avatar (non idol nor for veneration) then I would stand guilty.  If you believe your accusation to me, there exists hypocrisy.   But of course this is sarcasm, which ridiculously compares a non-revered image not set before altars NOT in representation of anything to do with worship with:


The Fathers (do not call any man father)
Made an image of things in the likeness of things in heaven and bowed down to them. (against commandment)

They offered burnt offerings to them (as to the Golden calf).

To compare a digital forum avatar to obvious reverence to images in church is absolutely ridiculous.... Unless of course you guys have started to venerate screen icons....  I'm sure that will be next.
The commandment says not to make likenesses, not to worship them and not bow down to them. Three distinct orders.

The clergy there are not worshiping the icons and they are bowed down to God, not to icons, so the only question is about making likenesses.  Explain again how they are making likenesses and you are not?  ???
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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2014, 01:52:22 PM »
You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...

And YiM, try answering this one too.  

Yours truly,

A real Nazarene

Because it clearly states in the scriptures that Paul was a Nazarene sect leader.  Paul by his own words stated he believed in the entire law.

The Scriptures state that Felix (a pagan) believed Paul to be a leader of the Nazarene sect... which was a name for all Christians at the time as they was yet no differentiation between Judaism and Christianity in the eyes of the Romans.

From your beloved Paranion 29:
Quote
And the holy apostle did not disclaim the name, not to profess the Nazoraean sect, but he was glad to own the name his adversaries' malice had applied to him for Christ's sake.... And no wonder the apostle admitted to being a Nazoraean! In those days everyone called Christians this because of the city of Nazareth, there was no other usage of the name then

I hope you realize how inconsistent you are. You abase us for our citing of Tradition in support of icons, yet you yourself use a source of tradition, Panarion 29, to apply an interpenetration to a passage from scripture to justify your own beliefs.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2014, 01:54:43 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.

Question: If you chose to excuse yourself from the part of the commandment where is says not to make any likeness of things on Earth, can you excuse us of the part where it says we can't bow down to them?
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2014, 01:55:41 PM »
Leviticus 26:1 You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God.


Revelation 9:20-21 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.


Isaiah 44 All who fashion idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit. Their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. Who fashions a god or casts an idol that is profitable for nothing?


Psalm 115 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them.


1 Corinthians 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.

1 Corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Deuteronomy 29:17 And you have seen their detestable things, their idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold, which were among them.  (....cause these to stumble)


Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.  
(MY PRAISE to carved idols - this signifies people used idols in proxy to represent YHWH)

2 Kings 17:12 And they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, “You shall not do this.”


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Offline minasoliman

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2014, 01:56:23 PM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Why didn't you say you're a Mormon? We would have treated you much more sympathetically here.

Most humans understand that when somebody makes a good point that challenges somebody's beliefs that it is common to attack the source (which I am far from Mormon), rather than proving otherwise.  See this is a testimony, which will remain forever in internet archives (outside of this forum).   Redundant and ridiculous attacks only testify to this.

I wish you took your own advice as well for your own sake.

It's obvious the bible you claim to follow, you disobey.  If you view Christ as God, you would obey his teachings.  This is so incredibly obvious.   Being "Eastern Orthodox" has become an idol to people, as they take the church as God - over God.  Otherwise you'd obey him.

You claim your own father was an Orthodox priest.  Did he worship any golden calves?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2014, 01:56:46 PM »
"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."



I see some likenesses of things that are on the earth here...

;)

I know, it's wiggle room.  I hope nobody venerates the avatar.

Question: If you chose to excuse yourself from the part of the commandment where is says not to make any likeness of things on Earth, can you excuse us of the part where it says we can't bow down to them?

There is no commas in Hebrew my friend.

Besides, on your point, it is not me that needs to excuse you.
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