Author Topic: How are icons different than the golden calf?  (Read 12751 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2014, 01:33:19 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 

I'm not talking about the shroud of Turin.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2014, 01:33:30 AM »
Yesh, the Greek word eikona means image. What language was the NT originally written, again?

Pennsylvania Deutsch

Another mean post by Kelly.

Image is not a problem.  
Was Jesus God?  Yes.
Was Jesus God's image?  Yes.

Was Jesus a piece of wood painted by man (do not MAKE)?  NO.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2014, 01:35:10 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 

I'm not talking about the shroud of Turin.

Does God's authority exist beyond human authority?
If Christ was God, who are you to question what he did?

Did that give you permission to violate the commandment?
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2014, 01:35:52 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 
so are your threads. But while the Medelion is part of Christ's seamless garment with which He has adorned the Church, your posts are just lose threads snagged on the errors of self made 21st century heresy.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2014, 01:36:22 AM »
Why do you care so much if we are idolaters? You post the same crap over and over ad infinitum.

Kelly you don't make any good contributions to any of my threads.  Others at least try to attempt to discuss and prove the theology.

I think you are here merely to argue and sling mud.  If you don't like debate, there are many other sections of this forum of non-controversial topics.

And to answer, I'd care if anybody was an idolater.   There is history in the church where icons were called idols.   Then there is history in the church where the iconodules murdered those calling icons idols.  (love your enemies).  It's actually pretty scary.

Yes, and there was also a point where iconoclasts were murdering iconocludes; the love went both ways.

True, there is history in the church when icons were called idols by some. There's also history in the church when the divinity of the Son was doubted by some, yet you don't seem to be too keen on this position.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:38:30 AM by Sam G »
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2014, 01:37:24 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 

Pollen tests would seem to indicate otherwise.
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2014, 01:38:08 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 

I'm not talking about the shroud of Turin.

Does God's authority exist beyond human authority?
If Christ was God, who are you to question what he did?

Did that give you permission to violate the commandment?
He gave the authority to bind and lose to the Church.  Who gave you permission to spout heresy?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2014, 01:38:23 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2014, 01:38:44 AM »
Honestly.

Why people waste time and energy typing replies to the same thread and arguments over and over is beyond me.

Yesh has rejected Orthodoxy, yet people keep trying to prove things to him. This is futile. He is not confused or lacking in knowledge. He knows. He just refuses to believe or see

It's a waste of time and big fancy Greek words.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2014, 01:40:12 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 
so are your threads. But while the Medelion is part of Christ's seamless garment with which He has adorned the Church, your posts are just lose threads snagged on the errors of self made 21st century heresy.

Following the scriptures is a heresy to you then.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2014, 01:41:08 AM »
Why do you care so much if we are idolaters? You post the same crap over and over ad infinitum.

Kelly you don't make any good contributions to any of my threads.  

You don't make any good contributions to any of your threads.  

Quote
Others at least try to attempt to discuss and prove the theology.

No, the theology has already been proven.  You have not.

Quote
There is history in the church where icons were called idols.   Then there is history in the church where the iconodules murdered those calling icons idols.  (love your enemies).  It's actually pretty scary.

I suppose the iconoclasts were working their fields, milking their goats, and praying quietly with their submissive wives when the iconodules threw together an "Icon Pride Parade" which got out of hand and many iconoclast lives were lost.  The iconoclasts never did anything wrong.  

But murder is OK as long as you like the murderer.  
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2014, 01:41:29 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 
so are your threads. But while the Medelion is part of Christ's seamless garment with which He has adorned the Church, your posts are just lose threads snagged on the errors of self made 21st century heresy.

Following the scriptures is a heresy to you then.

Following your own unique interpretation of them, you mean.
You want your belt to buckle, not your chair.

Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2014, 01:42:34 AM »
If we all admit to being image-worshipers, will he go away?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2014, 01:42:46 AM »
Why do you care so much if we are idolaters? You post the same crap over and over ad infinitum.

Kelly you don't make any good contributions to any of my threads.  Others at least try to attempt to discuss and prove the theology.

I think you are here merely to argue and sling mud.  If you don't like debate, there are many other sections of this forum of non-controversial topics.

And to answer, I'd care if anybody was an idolater.   There is history in the church where icons were called idols.   Then there is history in the church where the iconodules murdered those calling icons idols.  (love your enemies).  It's actually pretty scary.
indeed it is


I hear ISIS is looking for iconoclasts. Maybe you should join the like minded.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline SolEX01

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2014, 01:43:20 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2014, 01:43:53 AM »
Honestly.

Why people waste time and energy typing replies to the same thread and arguments over and over is beyond me.

Yesh has rejected Orthodoxy, yet people keep trying to prove things to him. This is futile. He is not confused or lacking in knowledge. He knows. He just refuses to believe or see

It's a waste of time and big fancy Greek words.

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2014, 01:44:06 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 
so are your threads. But while the Medelion is part of Christ's seamless garment with which He has adorned the Church, your posts are just lose threads snagged on the errors of self made 21st century heresy.

Following the scriptures is a heresy to you then.
Which Scripture?  Us Iconodules have the Bible.  From what angel of light did you get your gospel?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2014, 01:44:22 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

It's hopeless yeshuahisiam. Just hopeless. Never in the history of Christianity before the Protestant Reformation was the Bible accepted as the only source of divine revelation. The scriptures are very very very important, no one doubts that, but as long as you try to judge Orthodox Christianity with such an anachronistic view of divine revelation, nobody will ever be able to prove anything to you.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:44:41 AM by Sam G »
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2014, 01:44:59 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You can follow God's will as you see it, without being here and without persistently arguing with people.
You being here is pointless, since you have already decided that no one will prove anything to you.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2014, 01:47:01 AM »
Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

You have no part in me.
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2014, 01:47:24 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2014, 01:48:34 AM »

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

I've heard that they laugh at Protestants mostly, for having views about God that are too foreign to the Hebrew scriptures to be taken as their fulfillment.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:49:17 AM by Sam G »
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2014, 01:48:59 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2014, 01:53:34 AM »
Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

You have no part in me.

Thanks..... brother...  Ephraim = gentile or alien which was scattered...
nevermind... milk not meat.  
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2014, 01:53:50 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....


Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2014, 01:57:31 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.

Umm, you go to far.  

The church did not own the scriptures they were written long before the church.  Even Paul was a Nazarene sect leader - who later EO St. Epiphanius condemned in Panarion 29.   Sorry it's not as original as you think.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2014, 01:59:40 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....



I worship the God of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  I believe in the entire bible, the torah, the law, and the New Testament (and early texts that the early Christians used).
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline SolEX01

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2014, 02:03:56 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....



I worship the God of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The "God of the Father" - so there are 2 Gods in yeshuaisiamism?  How do you justify the extra God?  You aren't worshiping the Trinity, but some kind of tetraism....

I believe in the entire bible, the torah, the law, and the New Testament (and early texts that the early Christians used).

Just as the scribes rewrote the Septuagint to deny Christ, you are picking and choosing scriptures to support your tetraism with dual Gods....


« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:17:35 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2014, 02:05:00 AM »
Jesus Christ became man so we may make an image of His incarnate form.  We do not worship the wood and paint but he who is represented by the image.  Before Christ took on human nature, it was not possible to represent any of the Trinity by any image, much less that of an animal.
Have you heard of the concept of casting our pearls before swine? Or "Don't feed the trolls!"?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:06:33 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2014, 02:09:01 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.

Umm, you go to far.  

The church did not own the scriptures they were written long before the church.  Even Paul was a Nazarene sect leader - who later EO St. Epiphanius condemned in Panarion 29.   Sorry it's not as original as you think.

You never did explain why you accept St. Epiphanius's description of the Nazarene sect, yet why you do not also accept his testimony that St. Paul was not their leader, and that the sect he's describing originates after the apostolic period. Fruit of the poisoned tree you know...
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2014, 02:11:23 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.

Umm, you go to far.

You don't go far enough-about 19 centuries too late and 6,000 miles too far away to have any claim on the Holy Scriptures.

The church did not own the scriptures they were written long before the church.  Even Paul was a Nazarene sect leader - who later EO St. Epiphanius condemned in Panarion 29.   Sorry it's not as original as you think.
skipping over your self evident ignorance of history, you still are left hanging without any hold of the Scriptures.

Although you are mentioned. II Peter 3:16. Sorry, you're not as original as you think.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2014, 02:12:07 AM »

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

I've heard that they laugh at Protestants mostly, for having views about God that are too foreign to the Hebrew scriptures to be taken as their fulfillment.

Protestants are weaker.
Orthodox have a longer and 'wiser' history as do Roman Catholics, but they are still considered ridiculous.

The early Christians converted many Jews & Gentiles.   Why can't Jews still be easily converted?  Something changed.

Here we have EO Christians who don't even know the foundation of the Christian faith, or that they (as gentiles) are part of Ephraim, the ones God divorced.... The divorce annulled through what? Death of a spouse. (Yeshua)   We have Paul's writings grossly misunderstood (I understand why Peter called them difficult), and people making excuses to disobey God because to accept their theologian's scriptural heresy.

Seriously, kissing images of St. _____.   When God told us not to make them or bow to them....
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2014, 02:13:38 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....



I worship the God of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  I believe in the entire bible, the torah, the law, and the New Testament (and early texts that the early Christians used).

They don't get any earlier than St. Clement and St. Ignatius, but you reject them as well.

So you "believe" in the whole Bible, huh? Would that include Maccabees?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2014, 02:13:50 AM »
The Golden Calf was a false Idol , it says Gods in the scripture you quote, and they also made reference to it leading them, they were reverting to old ways that did not reflect the One and only God, and as Orthodox we do not look to Icons to lead us as "Gods" as the scripture stated in reference to the golden calf.

One must understand that God was angry because they were looking for help from false "Gods".
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2014, 02:13:55 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.

Umm, you go to far.

You don't go far enough-about 19 centuries too late and 6,000 miles too far away to have any claim on the Holy Scriptures.

The church did not own the scriptures they were written long before the church.  Even Paul was a Nazarene sect leader - who later EO St. Epiphanius condemned in Panarion 29.   Sorry it's not as original as you think.
skipping over your self evident ignorance of history, you still are left hanging without any hold of the Scriptures.

Although you are mentioned. II Peter 3:16. Sorry, you're not as original as you think.

Um, what I said is in the scriptures (read Paul's trial by Felix), and the quote of Epiphanius is plain as day.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2014, 02:15:25 AM »
The Golden Calf was a false Idol , it says Gods in the scripture you quote, and they also made reference to it leading them, they were reverting to old ways that did not reflect the One and only God, and as Orthodox we do not look to Icons to lead us as "Gods" as the scripture stated in reference to the golden calf.

One must understand that God was angry because they were looking for help from false "Gods".

The word "Gods" in Hebrew is Elohim
The world "Lord" in Hebrew was YHWH (or Yahweh).

They claimed the calf as Yahweh.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2014, 02:16:53 AM »

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

I've heard that they laugh at Protestants mostly, for having views about God that are too foreign to the Hebrew scriptures to be taken as their fulfillment.

Protestants are weaker.
Orthodox have a longer and 'wiser' history as do Roman Catholics, but they are still considered ridiculous.

The early Christians converted many Jews & Gentiles.   Why can't Jews still be easily converted?  Something changed.

Easily converted?  That not what the Bible says.  What scripture do you depend on again?

Here we have EO Christians who don't even know the foundation of the Christian faith, or that they (as gentiles) are part of Ephraim, the ones God divorced.... The divorce annulled through what? Death of a spouse. (Yeshua)   We have Paul's writings grossly misunderstood (I understand why Peter called them difficult), and people making excuses to disobey God because to accept their theologian's scriptural heresy.
EO Christians have no need of knowing your fanciful delusions on the meaning of our Bible, as in the main, the delusions will die with you, and the Church will continue on as she has for millenia.

Seriously, kissing images of St. _____.   When God told us not to make them or bow to them....

God told us to pay no heed to false prophets.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2014, 02:17:11 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....



I worship the God of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  I believe in the entire bible, the torah, the law, and the New Testament (and early texts that the early Christians used).

They don't get any earlier than St. Clement and St. Ignatius, but you reject them as well.

So you "believe" in the whole Bible, huh? Would that include Maccabees?

We strayed far.

First I need to know if you believe in the Torah including the book of Exodus and the 10 commandments.
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2014, 02:18:33 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.

Umm, you go to far.

You don't go far enough-about 19 centuries too late and 6,000 miles too far away to have any claim on the Holy Scriptures.

The church did not own the scriptures they were written long before the church.  Even Paul was a Nazarene sect leader - who later EO St. Epiphanius condemned in Panarion 29.   Sorry it's not as original as you think.
skipping over your self evident ignorance of history, you still are left hanging without any hold of the Scriptures.

Although you are mentioned. II Peter 3:16. Sorry, you're not as original as you think.

Um, what I said is in the scriptures (read Paul's trial by Felix), and the quote of Epiphanius is plain as day.

Only to those twisting their ignorance of history into a narrative. As for what St. Epiphanius said, his Church understands that quite fine.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2014, 02:19:07 AM »

I work on factual evidence.  There is a reason the church at one time won Jewish converts by the boatload, and why today they laugh at it.

Are we not part of Ephraim after all?

I've heard that they laugh at Protestants mostly, for having views about God that are too foreign to the Hebrew scriptures to be taken as their fulfillment.

Protestants are weaker.
Orthodox have a longer and 'wiser' history as do Roman Catholics, but they are still considered ridiculous.

The early Christians converted many Jews & Gentiles.   Why can't Jews still be easily converted?  Something changed.

Easily converted?  That not what the Bible says.  What scripture do you depend on again?

Here we have EO Christians who don't even know the foundation of the Christian faith, or that they (as gentiles) are part of Ephraim, the ones God divorced.... The divorce annulled through what? Death of a spouse. (Yeshua)   We have Paul's writings grossly misunderstood (I understand why Peter called them difficult), and people making excuses to disobey God because to accept their theologian's scriptural heresy.
EO Christians have no need of knowing your fanciful delusions on the meaning of our Bible, as in the main, the delusions will die with you, and the Church will continue on as she has for millenia.

Seriously, kissing images of St. _____.   When God told us not to make them or bow to them....

God told us to pay no heed to false prophets.

Different times.  Sure they were torn up, but they converted.  Unlike today, where to get a Jew to convert to EO is much rarer than you can imagine, much less many.

Thanks for calling me a false prophet.  I was merely quoting the scriptures you claim to respect, from the words of God you claim to worship.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2014, 02:19:49 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....



I worship the God of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  I believe in the entire bible, the torah, the law, and the New Testament (and early texts that the early Christians used).

They don't get any earlier than St. Clement and St. Ignatius, but you reject them as well.

So you "believe" in the whole Bible, huh? Would that include Maccabees?

We strayed far.

First I need to know if you believe in the Torah including the book of Exodus and the 10 commandments.

Have you added Judaism to your mix of religions?  No wonder you need an extra 'God' to sort things out....

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2014, 02:21:46 AM »
Thanks..... brother...  Ephraim = gentile or alien which was scattered...
nevermind... milk not meat.  


Oh, good.  So you're not ignoring me totally.  Now that you got your quip in, try answering my question:

So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

If they knew that "YHWH whom they could not see" brought them out of Egypt, where did they get the idea to depict him as a calf?
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2014, 02:21:55 AM »
I'm only concerned with following God's will.

Which 'God?'

The Apostle Paul in his Epistle to Titus said to not engage in 'stupid controversies... quarrels over the law for they are unprofitable and futile'

That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.

You want us to challenge your 'God?'

Paul believed in the whole law.

You haven't answered the question: Which 'God' are you following?  Note that I put 'God' in single quotes because I don't think you're following what the actual God has taught.

In revelation of John, 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

St. John talks about God, not your 'God' whatever it may be....



I worship the God of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  I believe in the entire bible, the torah, the law, and the New Testament (and early texts that the early Christians used).

They don't get any earlier than St. Clement and St. Ignatius, but you reject them as well.

So you "believe" in the whole Bible, huh? Would that include Maccabees?

We strayed far.

First I need to know if you believe in the Torah including the book of Exodus and the 10 commandments.
I believe in the Pentateuch Christ read, the Apostles preached and their successors in His Body, the Church, has preserved.

If you follow the Torah the Sadduccees created, the Pharisees taught and their successors the Masorites preserved, I first need to know that you have the scar proving it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2014, 02:22:40 AM »
...the quote of Epiphanius is plain as day.

You're right.

Quote
And the holy apostle did not disclaim the name, not to profess the Nazoraean sect, but he was glad
to own the name his adversaries' malice had applied to him for Christ's sake.... And no wonder the apostle admitted to being a Nazoraean! In
those days everyone called Christians this because of the city of Nazareth, there was no other usage of the name then

"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2014, 02:25:10 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.

Kelly, unfortunately I know you want to box me in to try to admit to proselytizing, which I am not.
Convert people to WHAT?

I'm only concerned with following God's will.  That's it.  If it be the EO church, then prove me wrong.  Unfortunately, I need evidence of where God gave us direct permission to make images of things in heaven and permission to bow to them in proxy.
The Church has nothing to prove to you.  The fact that you attempt to steal the Scriptures from her proves her (and hence our) case. She has all the evidence.  You have sand.

Maybe you can look up Elaine Pagel and hook up with the gnostics.

Umm, you go to far.

You don't go far enough-about 19 centuries too late and 6,000 miles too far away to have any claim on the Holy Scriptures.

The church did not own the scriptures they were written long before the church.  Even Paul was a Nazarene sect leader - who later EO St. Epiphanius condemned in Panarion 29.   Sorry it's not as original as you think.
skipping over your self evident ignorance of history, you still are left hanging without any hold of the Scriptures.

Although you are mentioned. II Peter 3:16. Sorry, you're not as original as you think.

Um, what I said is in the scriptures (read Paul's trial by Felix), and the quote of Epiphanius is plain as day.

Only to those twisting their ignorance of history into a narrative. As for what St. Epiphanius said, his Church understands that quite fine.

Okay.

Felix said Paul was a leader of a Nazarene sect.
Paul said he believes in the law.

Epiphanius said what he said in Panarion 29.

So what you want me to do is put down history, shut up, trust the theologians, ignore he everlasting feasts of God, accept pagan influence feasts by pagan "saints", and on top of that, venerate idols, twist the 4th commandment to befit the EO church....

On top of that, violate Yeshua's words and refer to my bishop as "master".  

Sound's like an awfully bad plan.


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