Author Topic: How are icons different than the golden calf?  (Read 19653 times)

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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #405 on: August 07, 2014, 03:28:11 PM »
This thread is still going on?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #406 on: August 07, 2014, 04:20:16 PM »
This always happens.   Read my words more carefully and don't fill my thoughts.

I wish you offer us the same courtesy, but you won't, not even in this post.  For instance:

Quote
See there's this thing...

Walk up to an icon of Christ.
Cross yourself.
Bow before it.
Cross yourself again.
Bow again.
Venerate the wood with an "image" of Christ on it.
Back off walking backwards.
Cross yourself.
Bow again.

You just helped your faith and to do the will of God.  It makes you so much more embellished in his word and teachings.

I'm sorry I see stuff like the above example as ridiculous and heretical as all get up.

None of us venerates wood.  We venerate the image.  The wood is just the vehicle for the image.  There are icons on wood, on paper, on fabric, on glass, but no one venerates the material on which the icon appears as a thing in itself, they venerate the image.  If I took your Bible and threw it in a pile of manure, you would be shocked, because you would not think of it as me throwing a pile of papers stitched together into a pile of manure, you would see the disrespect as focused on the word of God.  The same principle is involved here.  No matter how much this is explained to you, you refuse to get it, because you are "filling our thoughts" to convince yourself of the badness of something you already decided you don't like.  Stop the foolishness.  

Also, you criticise "walking backwards".  Personally, I don't do this because I just don't, but I don't criticise people for reverence.  Only the irreverent would ridicule piety and the fear of God.


This is where we differ.  You are comparing venerating an image in opposite context to a bible going into manure and the shock of it.

Of course, it would be shocking for a bible to go into a pile of manure.  Not because I venerate or worship the bible, it is because somebody would be trying to disrespect me as a person for throwing out a book that I value so much into the manure.   It would also be my property you are doing that to.  God's word stands however, no matter how much manure people throw it into.

In the case of icons, adoration or superfluous spiritual connotations are put upon the icon, emphasized with the icon, and hypersensitive "holy" attributes are conjoined with the image.   The image itself is lifeless, which God's own words detest.  While the Eucharist is the spoken and written ultimate focus of the Eastern Orthodox Church, unfortunately, experience and being within the church itself for decades dictates differently.  I've witnessed an incredible focus towards icons - even perhaps - above Eucharist (never would be admitted).  Bowing, venerating, blessing, censing, and visual focal, is directed much more towards the icons in the church, than the Eucharist.

I am not throwing down what the EO thinks of Eucharist here, as any EO knows, it is absolutely held to importance.  Any person in the church would say it is ultimately the most important thing in the church.  This is fine.  But the actions prove otherwise.   (consider how many times the icons are censed in the church vs. Eucharist).

So to go towards my OP, the image of YHWH in the Golden calf, was worshipped in proxy of YHWH.  This is exactly like icons, except for icons have depictions of people on them.  (Traditional looks, probably not actual).   There is even an image of YHWH in icons depicting the trinity.



Well, the congregation one by one should be censed, each according to his/her name.  This was an ancient Coptic practice.  Everything that is consecrated for the celebration of the Eucharist is censed, the altar, the priests, the deacons, the minor orders of the Church, the laity (each one), the icons, the vessels, the books, the crosses, etc.  All are censed.  And it is done for the Eucharist, not instead of the Eucharist.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #407 on: August 07, 2014, 04:24:19 PM »
This thread is still going on?

I'm not sure why anyone bothers trying to explain things to him anymore. He is committed to his rhetoric.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #408 on: August 07, 2014, 04:32:51 PM »
This thread is still going on?

I'm not sure why anyone bothers trying to explain things to him anymore. He is committed to his rhetoric.
I don't know, I think Yesh really wants to be Orthodox. That's why he keeps coming back and making these threads. He didn't use to seem so hardened to the thought, I think it's a defense mechanism.
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Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #409 on: August 08, 2014, 05:44:49 AM »
This always happens.   Read my words more carefully and don't fill my thoughts.

I wish you offer us the same courtesy, but you won't, not even in this post.  For instance:

Quote
See there's this thing...

Walk up to an icon of Christ.
Cross yourself.
Bow before it.
Cross yourself again.
Bow again.
Venerate the wood with an "image" of Christ on it.
Back off walking backwards.
Cross yourself.
Bow again.

You just helped your faith and to do the will of God.  It makes you so much more embellished in his word and teachings.

I'm sorry I see stuff like the above example as ridiculous and heretical as all get up.

None of us venerates wood.  We venerate the image.  The wood is just the vehicle for the image.  There are icons on wood, on paper, on fabric, on glass, but no one venerates the material on which the icon appears as a thing in itself, they venerate the image.  If I took your Bible and threw it in a pile of manure, you would be shocked, because you would not think of it as me throwing a pile of papers stitched together into a pile of manure, you would see the disrespect as focused on the word of God.  The same principle is involved here.  No matter how much this is explained to you, you refuse to get it, because you are "filling our thoughts" to convince yourself of the badness of something you already decided you don't like.  Stop the foolishness.  

Also, you criticise "walking backwards".  Personally, I don't do this because I just don't, but I don't criticise people for reverence.  Only the irreverent would ridicule piety and the fear of God.


This is where we differ.  You are comparing venerating an image in opposite context to a bible going into manure and the shock of it.

Of course, it would be shocking for a bible to go into a pile of manure.  Not because I venerate or worship the bible, it is because somebody would be trying to disrespect me as a person for throwing out a book that I value so much into the manure.   It would also be my property you are doing that to.  God's word stands however, no matter how much manure people throw it into.

In the case of icons, adoration or superfluous spiritual connotations are put upon the icon, emphasized with the icon, and hypersensitive "holy" attributes are conjoined with the image.   The image itself is lifeless, which God's own words detest.  While the Eucharist is the spoken and written ultimate focus of the Eastern Orthodox Church, unfortunately, experience and being within the church itself for decades dictates differently.  I've witnessed an incredible focus towards icons - even perhaps - above Eucharist (never would be admitted).  Bowing, venerating, blessing, censing, and visual focal, is directed much more towards the icons in the church, than the Eucharist.

I am not throwing down what the EO thinks of Eucharist here, as any EO knows, it is absolutely held to importance.  Any person in the church would say it is ultimately the most important thing in the church.  This is fine.  But the actions prove otherwise.   (consider how many times the icons are censed in the church vs. Eucharist).

So to go towards my OP, the image of YHWH in the Golden calf, was worshipped in proxy of YHWH.  This is exactly like icons, except for icons have depictions of people on them.  (Traditional looks, probably not actual).   There is even an image of YHWH in icons depicting the trinity.



Well, the congregation one by one should be censed, each according to his/her name.  This was an ancient Coptic practice.  Everything that is consecrated for the celebration of the Eucharist is censed, the altar, the priests, the deacons, the minor orders of the Church, the laity (each one), the icons, the vessels, the books, the crosses, etc.  All are censed.  And it is done for the Eucharist, not instead of the Eucharist.

This is also EO practice.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #410 on: August 08, 2014, 05:44:49 AM »
This thread is still going on?

I'm not sure why anyone bothers trying to explain things to him anymore. He is committed to his rhetoric.

I wish you were wrong, Kally, but you aren't.  :-\
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #411 on: August 08, 2014, 10:20:01 PM »
This thread is still going on?

I'm not sure why anyone bothers trying to explain things to him anymore. He is committed to his rhetoric.
I don't know, I think Yesh really wants to be Orthodox. That's why he keeps coming back and making these threads. He didn't use to seem so hardened to the thought, I think it's a defense mechanism.

He's as hardened as he ever was, I'm afraid. He keeps repeating the same old shibboleths, in the face of anything anyone has said.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?