Author Topic: How are icons different than the golden calf?  (Read 13205 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #360 on: July 17, 2014, 11:18:31 PM »
I also want to point out that while icons have become heavily part of Orthodox culture, I don't think it is all that required in a church.  It is an encouragement when done right.  That is you are treating it as Jews would treat a relic, with veneration, with honor, but not worship, since that is only due to God.  We kiss an icon just as we kiss the Bible or the Cross. The Jews also kiss the Torah and seek blessings from the Menorah and there are also ancient, pre-Christ synagogues with Menorah symbols as well.  We say "bow down before the Holy Gospel".  Does that mean we worship a bunch of paper and words?

Mina,

This (like the rest of your posts) is an excellent point.  But I suspect YiM would have a problem even in one of the many churches in India where there are no icons at all, but only a cross on the altar and a Gospel/Bible on a lectern.  The problem is not icons.  The problem is Orthodoxy. 

I don't disagree.  But there seems to be a reason why he is always back here.  He says he cares for our souls, when in fact, he is trying to see maybe he is wrong.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:18:44 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #361 on: July 17, 2014, 11:21:22 PM »
And since some have decided to go at the person here. And the mods allow it, I'll be sharing a lot, if I find the time.

Could be fun.
Oh joy. Just what we have all been missing. More Orthonorm.

Don't worry, the mud to be slung at you is pretty minimal. You pretty much out yourself.
Nothing gets me feeling more homosexual than when you talk dirty to me, o-norm.  :-*

I can't wait to read this super secret oc.net dossier he always purports to have. I bet the section on you is hilarious.  ;)

Note the occasion or longer or continual absence of some members. That dossier comes in handy.
O-norm visualizes himself to be the Illuminati.  Everything that happens on oc.net occurs by his guiding hand.  Every thread you start, he caused you to start it. He can shut this place down with just a few well placed PMs. Of course, this post will never make it on to the forum unless he has finally granted permission for me to reveal his ubermensch status.
God bless!

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #362 on: July 17, 2014, 11:22:50 PM »
And since some have decided to go at the person here. And the mods allow it, I'll be sharing a lot, if I find the time.

Could be fun.
Oh joy. Just what we have all been missing. More Orthonorm.

Don't worry, the mud to be slung at you is pretty minimal. You pretty much out yourself.
Nothing gets me feeling more homosexual than when you talk dirty to me, o-norm.  :-*

I can't wait to read this super secret oc.net dossier he always purports to have. I bet the section on you is hilarious.  ;)

Note the occasion or longer or continual absence of some members. That dossier comes in handy.

You can't even post a photo of a guy on this board without getting is yanked. So my threats to anyone who pays attention are pointless.

You can't have posts taken back, if you are someone who suffers from mental illness and ask nicely. But if you insult fat women and a photo is shown of . . . well, that can be taken care of.

This is not to get into the posting of the various romantic overtures to men here by men, to women by men, here etc. Sometimes father and son made the same move. Think that is going to fly?

No.

So yes, I can't say anything.

'sides, if you can't tell when I am joking, you really haven't been here long. James Rottneck is gay, but I think that is public by now and Akimori is . . . well you probably don't know who that is, since you seem to have the general understanding of oc.net that Trisagion does.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #363 on: July 17, 2014, 11:24:19 PM »
I also want to point out that while icons have become heavily part of Orthodox culture, I don't think it is all that required in a church.  It is an encouragement when done right.  That is you are treating it as Jews would treat a relic, with veneration, with honor, but not worship, since that is only due to God.  We kiss an icon just as we kiss the Bible or the Cross. The Jews also kiss the Torah and seek blessings from the Menorah and there are also ancient, pre-Christ synagogues with Menorah symbols as well.  We say "bow down before the Holy Gospel".  Does that mean we worship a bunch of paper and words?

Mina,

This (like the rest of your posts) is an excellent point.  But I suspect YiM would have a problem even in one of the many churches in India where there are no icons at all, but only a cross on the altar and a Gospel/Bible on a lectern.  The problem is not icons.  The problem is Orthodoxy. 

I don't disagree.  But there seems to be a reason why he is always back here.  He says he cares for our souls, when in fact, he is trying to see maybe he is wrong.

It seems like some posters realize that or that more likely it is mixed motives and actually condescend in a good way (like Christ did) while most have turned in him into some whipping boy. Fr. H. for example sees into the heart of men now.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #364 on: July 17, 2014, 11:27:33 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?


Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #365 on: July 17, 2014, 11:33:53 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:34:20 PM by orthonorm »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #366 on: July 17, 2014, 11:38:27 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




Oh I thought this was green . . .

If you were wondering about some possible infractions:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,59630.0/topicseen.html

This entire thread seems to break one rule or another.


Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #367 on: July 17, 2014, 11:42:27 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.


Exactly what do you mean by that?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #368 on: July 17, 2014, 11:43:14 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.


You find that funny?  ...and you think other people are having issues?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #369 on: July 17, 2014, 11:46:35 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.
I can't speak for kelly, but do you actually think I take you seriously?  I haven't done that since my first 3 months here...

You are just someone that I know I can be a bit more abusive toward without you taking offense. I figured if you give it out, you can take it.
God bless!

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #370 on: July 17, 2014, 11:48:10 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.


You find that funny?  ...and you think other people are having issues?

Who said I found it funny? It is rather sad, especially if you knew more about him.

It is a fact. You asked. Check my PM box.

Sometimes you let your emotions or complaints of others get in the way of your reason.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #371 on: July 17, 2014, 11:50:30 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.


You find that funny?  ...and you think other people are having issues?

Who said I found it funny? It is rather sad, especially if you knew more about him.

It is a fact. You asked. Check my PM box.

Sometimes you let your emotions or complaints of others get in the way of your reason.

We don't check PM's...why don't you just tell me what is in there so I don't have to wonder.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline minasoliman

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #372 on: July 17, 2014, 11:54:21 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.


You find that funny?  ...and you think other people are having issues?

Who said I found it funny? It is rather sad, especially if you knew more about him.

It is a fact. You asked. Check my PM box.

Sometimes you let your emotions or complaints of others get in the way of your reason.

It's a fallacy to think we know what goes on in people's pm's.  As Liza said, if people have pm's that trouble them, then they should click on the report to moderator button:

www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,59506.msg1153606.html#msg1153606
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #373 on: July 17, 2014, 11:55:30 PM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.


You find that funny?  ...and you think other people are having issues?

Who said I found it funny? It is rather sad, especially if you knew more about him.

It is a fact. You asked. Check my PM box.

Sometimes you let your emotions or complaints of others get in the way of your reason.

We don't check PM's...why don't you just tell me what is in there so I don't have to wonder.


I did. You bolded it even.

Want me to quote it? That doesn't seem very nice. And I thought it was against the rules here to share PMs publicly.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #374 on: July 17, 2014, 11:57:01 PM »

You can send me a PM, and fill me in on all the details of what's ailing the posters on this Forum, Geh.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline orthonorm

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #375 on: July 17, 2014, 11:59:12 PM »

You can send me a PM, and fill me in on all the details of what's ailing the posters on this Forum, Geh.

Volnutt is dying.

I said it, he PMed me he is dying. He once posted publicly he was leaving the forum due to me. 

He might want to reconsider that deathbed reconciliation after the third time I have had to make this clear.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #376 on: July 18, 2014, 01:14:35 AM »
Jesusisiam seems like a troll. At the least, a strange Judaeophile.

Offline JamesR

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #377 on: July 18, 2014, 02:18:22 AM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.


Exactly what do you mean by that?

Well I'm no Jason (I'm not tall enough) but it appears that Fr. H is attempting to lure Yeshua into violating the rules so that you or one of the other moderators would ban him. It's not too surprising; the voices that make this place interesting like that neo-gnostic guy are generally always put on moderated status or banned simply for disagreeing with us.

Offline hecma925

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #378 on: July 18, 2014, 02:20:07 AM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.


Exactly what do you mean by that?

Well I'm no Jason (I'm not tall enough) but it appears that Fr. H is attempting to lure Yeshua into violating the rules so that you or one of the other moderators would ban him. It's not too surprising; the voices that make this place interesting like that neo-gnostic guy are generally always put on moderated status or banned simply for disagreeing with us.

For sure.  Never for breaking forum rules.  ::)
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #379 on: July 18, 2014, 02:26:50 AM »
Yes, we are all easily typified, but so are OC.net's resident contrarians.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #380 on: July 18, 2014, 02:32:31 AM »
As a moderator, I actually do consider context.  Even if you have any problems in the way we moderate, making public announcements of these problems can be considered an offense.  If you feel something is done unfairly, once again, "report to moderator" or send us a PM.

Let's get back to topic now guys.  Thank you.  If you find anything that bothers you, there is always a "report to moderator" function, whether it's someone's post publicly, or even someone harassing you through private message.  I cannot reiterate this enough.

And everyone should calm down.  Christ is in our midst!

God bless.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #381 on: July 18, 2014, 02:41:20 AM »
Jason, I never said I was leaving because of you. I said that it's hard for me to be around you because I take it personally when you criticize me and it makes me really nervous around you. My temper is such that I don't suffer long a situation in which someone is worrying me or ticking me off and since I value you as a friend I didn't want us to just have us have constant arguments.

But none of that is your fault. It's mine and I always knew that. You've done nothing wrong, in fact you've been more than caring toward me. I'm ultimately just an insecure wimp. I'm sorry if my farewell PM to you did not properly convey that. Again, my fault for writing it in an emotional state and not taking care to clarify myself.

The initial reason that I left the forum entirely was because I didn't want to just block you and have things be all awkward. A few months after that, I started to really lose my faith as well as my taste for apologetics so it seemed kind of pointless to return to a religion board. But I should have kept in touch better. Another failing of mine.

By the way, I may actually doing better health wise, I've lost a bit of weight since the diabetes diagnosis, but I still have frequent heart attack scares.



Profanity replaced with something more appropriate  -PtA

FYI, the word you used is in the list of profanities.  Just an informal suggestion to be careful.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 02:50:31 AM by minasoliman »
Quote
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #382 on: July 18, 2014, 07:50:06 AM »
Did Jesus teach you to bow to icons to worship God?
Did any writings in the old testament teach you to bow to icons to worship God?

Why use them then just because theologians said you could centuries later?
What do you gain from them?

Maybe it would interest you to hear the story of someone making a religious journey in the opposite direction to yourself. While I am ignorant, I am at least able to describe my own experience with icons.

The privilege to see one of the martyrs and know him alive and well in the invisible Kingdom--to relate to him, to speak to him, to develop a bond of reverent love with him, yes--but also to, iconically, approach, handle, and kiss him, was one of the most blessed events of my life. I could not have anticipated its impact on me.

In a similar way, making the sign of the cross during the hymn to the Theotokos (for which we would not really have to have an icon) was an event that brought me to tears. Such things were forbidden to me, you understand -- and not just by the commands of men, but, as I was taught, by a forbidding God himself.

But now I was allowed, iconically, to enter previously-forbidden heaven--and even (if I may speak in my direct, ignorant fashion) to make friends among the heroes there. In this world that for me is too often empty of friends, empty of godly men and women, empty of heroes of stature, an encounter with icons was lifesaving for me, the special gift of God.

Indeed!  To add to this, Semitic culture also honored their parents and elders by bowing to them, and kissing their hands, head, or even with deep reverence, their feet.  It is a sign of honor, but not worship to one's parents.  To simply accuse Orthodox of worshipping icons is cultural insensitivity and lack of understanding.

I understand the EO perspective behind icons, but I think it is a big mess of lies that have deceived the EO Christians.

Kissing and giving honor to a human is different than kissing and giving honor to a piece of wood with paint on it.   You even put holy water on the wood.  I've seen the wood anointed with oil.  Roses and burnt offerings given to the wood.

I know you are smart people, how on Earth could you allow somebody to convince you that venerating icons is like venerating the saint and/or God in heaven (assuming the saint is in heaven)?

If you are kissing an icon, it is like you are kissing God.
If you are kissing the golden calf, it is like you are kissing God.

I've already posted scriptures about God hating images used in his proxy.

So why did he say those words?

I believe you're an intelligent man too.  That is why I'm pleading to you to consider why I keep mentioning Exodus 25.  The Jewish people, being a primitive humanity, had the temptation to worship to idols.  So God brought their attention to worship Him in a particular direction and spot.  In other words, if God was consistent, He wouldn't even allow people to worship towards a building, let alone build cherubim in that same direction, but allowed that to allude to a specific reason and veneration that would aid us to understand the incarnation and its effect on the saints.

Here's another scenario.  You rightly believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  I think one cannot be truly called a Christian if you don't believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  I'm assuming therefore you worship the body and blood of Christ with no hesitation.  But what if the body and blood of Christ is held by a priest?  Forget a priest, any righteous Christian in front of you is holding the body and blood of Christ.  And let's say that he carries them in a chalice and on a paten.  Are you worshipping the righteous Christian, the chalice, and the paten?

In the New Testament, it is no longer just cherub that holds the mercy seat of YHWH.  Now, it is every single Christian baptized and chrismated into Christ.  Replace every cherub you see on that mercy seat with any saint, and that is why we revere and "oil it up" so to speak, just as the Ark was oiled and blessed.  This is not a break in commandment, but a fulfillment of the commandment of Exodus 25.  Now we have become temples, and the icons are the chalice and patens of the actual temples of God we praise towards.

What do you believe in the Real Presence yeshu.. ? What about the law prescription against eating blood how do u reconcile them? :)
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #383 on: July 18, 2014, 07:51:01 PM »
Have you ever seen an Icon that depicted just a Golden calf or gave credence to such a object?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #384 on: July 18, 2014, 11:13:10 PM »
This video was recommended to me by Abba Facebook.  I find the repeated disclaimer about OO not being in communion with the "canonical Orthodox Church" rather funny considering all the other groups, including various EO groups, also not in communion with the EO, but whatever...it makes it rather clear that St Constantine radically corrupted pre- and post-Christian Jewish worship just as he did with Christian worship.  That, or that YiM has some inconvenient facts to deal with.   
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline john_mo

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #385 on: July 19, 2014, 08:38:46 AM »
This video was recommended to me by Abba Facebook.  I find the repeated disclaimer about OO not being in communion with the "canonical Orthodox Church" rather funny considering all the other groups, including various EO groups, also not in communion with the EO, but whatever...it makes it rather clear that St Constantine radically corrupted pre- and post-Christian Jewish worship just as he did with Christian worship.  That, or that YiM has some inconvenient facts to deal with.   

Which EO groups aren't in communion with the EO? 
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #386 on: July 19, 2014, 12:57:05 PM »
This video was recommended to me by Abba Facebook.  I find the repeated disclaimer about OO not being in communion with the "canonical Orthodox Church" rather funny considering all the other groups, including various EO groups, also not in communion with the EO, but whatever...it makes it rather clear that St Constantine radically corrupted pre- and post-Christian Jewish worship just as he did with Christian worship.  That, or that YiM has some inconvenient facts to deal with.   

Which EO groups aren't in communion with the EO? 
The so called Macedonian Orthodox Church, for example

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #387 on: July 19, 2014, 01:13:18 PM »
This video was recommended to me by Abba Facebook.  I find the repeated disclaimer about OO not being in communion with the "canonical Orthodox Church" rather funny considering all the other groups, including various EO groups, also not in communion with the EO, but whatever...it makes it rather clear that St Constantine radically corrupted pre- and post-Christian Jewish worship just as he did with Christian worship.  That, or that YiM has some inconvenient facts to deal with.    

Which EO groups aren't in communion with the EO?  
The so called Macedonian Orthodox Church, for example
Thanks.
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 01:19:53 PM by john_mo »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #388 on: July 19, 2014, 01:16:39 PM »
This video was recommended to me by Abba Facebook.  I find the repeated disclaimer about OO not being in communion with the "canonical Orthodox Church" rather funny considering all the other groups, including various EO groups, also not in communion with the EO, but whatever...it makes it rather clear that St Constantine radically corrupted pre- and post-Christian Jewish worship just as he did with Christian worship.  That, or that YiM has some inconvenient facts to deal with.   

Which EO groups aren't in communion with the EO? 
The so called Macedonian Orthodox Church, for example

I had in mind two clips in particular: one which I thought involved some Georgian jurisdiction not recognised by the Georgian Orthodox Church and the Russian Old Rite clips, which I am pretty sure are not from the MP or ROCOR.  I didn't know there was a Macedonian clip in this video (I don't know enough about that jurisdiction to have an opinion either way).  
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #389 on: July 19, 2014, 01:32:02 PM »
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

That's an odd question.  What does it mean?

Quote
From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.

That could be something, or it could be nothing. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline john_mo

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #390 on: July 19, 2014, 01:36:22 PM »
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

That's an odd question.  What does it mean?

Quote
From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.

That could be something, or it could be nothing. 

Not to ignore your first question, but is it that problematic to have a jurisdiction which is not yet decided?
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #391 on: July 19, 2014, 01:48:11 PM »
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

That's an odd question.  What does it mean?

Quote
From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.

That could be something, or it could be nothing. 

Not to ignore your first question, but is it that problematic to have a jurisdiction which is not yet decided?

In the case of someone like the OCA, who's in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, it's a slight problem but easily workable.

For people like the "MOC", doesnt matter because they're schismatics and not part of the Church

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #392 on: July 19, 2014, 01:52:41 PM »
When it comes to these groups, why can't one take a "whoever is not against us is with us" approach?  Sometimes, it's these canonicity quibbles that leads two non-different groups to cast a bad name of Orthodox for people like Yesh to lash against the Church.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #393 on: July 19, 2014, 02:12:01 PM »
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

That's an odd question.  What does it mean?

Quote
From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.

That could be something, or it could be nothing. 

Not to ignore your first question, but is it that problematic to have a jurisdiction which is not yet decided?

In the case of someone like the OCA, who's in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, it's a slight problem but easily workable.

For people like the "MOC", doesnt matter because they're schismatics and not part of the Church

I don't know the particulars of the Macedonian situation, but in general I think it's a bit more complicated than the "light switch" approach you seem to have described. 

The OCA is in communion with everyone, despite the non-recognition of their autocephaly by some local Churches.  Back in the day, ROCOR was only in communion with one or two local Churches, and opinion as to their "Churchness" was certainly divided to say the least.  There are other examples, including "stand alone" jurisdictions.   

These disputes have happened over and over again in the history of the Church, and when they are healed, all the rhetoric and lack of recognition of sacraments and what not is forgotten and swept under the rug as if it was never there in the first place.  But until then, there is rhetoric and actions.  I'm not sure how much of that really effects a change in status in the "wrong" jurisdiction: barring substantive differences in faith, it may very well be a "legal" issue, something that is so "on paper", something that we have to say and do for the sake of the safety and integrity of our flock, but that doesn't necessarily have the same effect on "the other" in reality.       
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #394 on: July 19, 2014, 03:19:14 PM »
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

That's an odd question.  What does it mean?

Quote
From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.

That could be something, or it could be nothing.  

Not to ignore your first question, but is it that problematic to have a jurisdiction which is not yet decided?

In the case of someone like the OCA, who's in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, it's a slight problem but easily workable.

For people like the "MOC", doesnt matter because they're schismatics and not part of the Church

I don't know the particulars of the Macedonian situation, but in general I think it's a bit more complicated than the "light switch" approach you seem to have described.  

The OCA is in communion with everyone, despite the non-recognition of their autocephaly by some local Churches.  Back in the day, ROCOR was only in communion with one or two local Churches, and opinion as to their "Churchness" was certainly divided to say the least.  There are other examples, including "stand alone" jurisdictions.  

These disputes have happened over and over again in the history of the Church, and when they are healed, all the rhetoric and lack of recognition of sacraments and what not is forgotten and swept under the rug as if it was never there in the first place.  But until then, there is rhetoric and actions.  I'm not sure how much of that really effects a change in status in the "wrong" jurisdiction: barring substantive differences in faith, it may very well be a "legal" issue, something that is so "on paper", something that we have to say and do for the sake of the safety and integrity of our flock, but that doesn't necessarily have the same effect on "the other" in reality.        

Once again, right on.  

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (till 1990), the UOC-USA (till 1995), and ROCOR (till 2007) were in this same boat.  When circumstances permitted their reception by the EP (for the first two) or the MP (as to the latter) there were no repetitions of any sacraments as far as I know.  Simply re establishment of communion.  

Id argue that the UOC-KP, the remnant UAOC, and the MOC are much in the same position today.  I've not as much familiarity with the MOC, but as to the others, one examining their liturgy, teachings, theology, etc. would find unity of faith with Orthodoxy and the genealogy of their bishops demonstrates the apostolic succession in that sense as well.

It is as if they are branches blown off a tree in a bad storm.  But such branches don't die immediately.  If placed in water or with some nutrients they can live for quite a long time.  And maybe even sprout new shoots.  Of course, if not properly tended, they will die.  But if, while they are still alive, they are grafted back into the tree, it is as if they never fell from it.  
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 03:20:12 PM by Yurysprudentsiya »

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #395 on: August 04, 2014, 09:10:30 AM »
I don't know the particulars of the Macedonian situation, but in general I think it's a bit more complicated than the "light switch" approach you seem to have described.
Ouch...  ;D Better dont open can of worms... 
There is problem, one of first episcopal consecrations was performed by single Bishop.

The OCA is in communion with everyone, despite the non-recognition of their autocephaly by some local Churches.  Back in the day, ROCOR was only in communion with one or two local Churches, and opinion as to their "Churchness" was certainly divided to say the least.  There are other examples, including "stand alone" jurisdictions.   
It is bit mor muddy than it seems. For decade or two, what become OCA was part of ROCOR, and ROCOR was pretty much in Communion with everyone till 1943...  except with "Sergians", refering to period between two wars is risky, it was period when EP was in communion with "Living Church" in Russia...


Offline Father H

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #396 on: August 05, 2014, 03:06:26 AM »
According to this, they aren't in communion with any EO Church, so, that checks out.  But are they a part of the EO?

That's an odd question.  What does it mean?

Quote
From the intro:
Quote
Its self-proclaimed autocephaly is not officially recognized by other Orthodox churches, nor is it in communion with any of them.

EDIT: it appears that they are in a no-man's land.

That could be something, or it could be nothing.  

Not to ignore your first question, but is it that problematic to have a jurisdiction which is not yet decided?

In the case of someone like the OCA, who's in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy, it's a slight problem but easily workable.

For people like the "MOC", doesnt matter because they're schismatics and not part of the Church

I don't know the particulars of the Macedonian situation, but in general I think it's a bit more complicated than the "light switch" approach you seem to have described.  

The OCA is in communion with everyone, despite the non-recognition of their autocephaly by some local Churches.  Back in the day, ROCOR was only in communion with one or two local Churches, and opinion as to their "Churchness" was certainly divided to say the least.  There are other examples, including "stand alone" jurisdictions.  

These disputes have happened over and over again in the history of the Church, and when they are healed, all the rhetoric and lack of recognition of sacraments and what not is forgotten and swept under the rug as if it was never there in the first place.  But until then, there is rhetoric and actions.  I'm not sure how much of that really effects a change in status in the "wrong" jurisdiction: barring substantive differences in faith, it may very well be a "legal" issue, something that is so "on paper", something that we have to say and do for the sake of the safety and integrity of our flock, but that doesn't necessarily have the same effect on "the other" in reality.        

Once again, right on.  

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada (till 1990), the UOC-USA (till 1995), and ROCOR (till 2007) were in this same boat.  When circumstances permitted their reception by the EP (for the first two) or the MP (as to the latter) there were no repetitions of any sacraments as far as I know.  Simply re establishment of communion.  

Id argue that the UOC-KP, the remnant UAOC, and the MOC are much in the same position today.  I've not as much familiarity with the MOC, but as to the others, one examining their liturgy, teachings, theology, etc. would find unity of faith with Orthodoxy and the genealogy of their bishops demonstrates the apostolic succession in that sense as well.

It is as if they are branches blown off a tree in a bad storm.  But such branches don't die immediately.  If placed in water or with some nutrients they can live for quite a long time.  And maybe even sprout new shoots.  Of course, if not properly tended, they will die.  But if, while they are still alive, they are grafted back into the tree, it is as if they never fell from it.  

Yes, but I'll only add that I don't think that the branches blown off analogy works.  However, I do think that the "broken branch" analogy works.  For those who are familiar with bonsai trees, for example, if the branch is partially severed, but maintains some connectivity (Majority of essentials of Orthodox faith, Gospels, Liturgy, etc. etc.), one can restore the branch by bandage.  The bandage is love, the thing that still feeds the partially severed branch until that time is water still coming through the tissue (the Holy Spirit).  The woody tissue is there, the vascular tissue needs restored.  Now of course a plant can't "think," but once bandage is applied it does "realize" that it belongs to the tree, and health and wholeness are restored. 

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #397 on: August 07, 2014, 11:58:30 AM »

Orthonorm, what exactly are you saying?

That you have intimidated posters in to leaving the Forum?




I think some have openly claimed that actually. What I am saying is what I said. First, is that Fr. H. is engaged in some odd behavior from where he stands.

Second, pointing out inconsistencies abound here but mainly consistent enough that unless you are Yesh, you cannot bully someone. See Vamrat's recent behavior and how it was handled.

Third, mostly kidding around which Tri and Kelly don't understand.

But yeah, some people have openly said I ran them off from here. Volnutt who is dying or something, made such claims. Some just likely have proper shame.

There were more, but Volnutt recently sent me some deathbed PM. I probably should reply.

There is a difference.  I am not bullying anyone.  If I speak things what would seem against Orthodoxy, I am making an argument against a theology, not an individual.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #398 on: August 07, 2014, 12:09:45 PM »
When it comes to these groups, why can't one take a "whoever is not against us is with us" approach?  Sometimes, it's these canonicity quibbles that leads two non-different groups to cast a bad name of Orthodox for people like Yesh to lash against the Church.

You have a point.

Ecumenism supercedes Orthodox unity.  It's a reality.  Bishops butt heads over ecumenism forming schisms of synods, yet ecumenism remains.

If I dare make an analogy, it's like if you have this family that is united.  Then you have one child that REALLY likes fish sandwiches.  Another child tells them they despise fish sandwiches so much that they are willing to sever ties with them for this reason - and that they need to quit eating fish sandwiches....

Or a spouse that tells you that they despise one of your many hobbies of (i dunno...) stamp collecting.  The spouse despises stamps so bad they are willing to divorce you over it.  (bear with me)

Just like fish sandwiches and stamp collecting, truly ecumenism and being members of the WCC and NCC are not needed.   The issue is about "control", stubborness, and money.  In the case of the church the bishops would rather engage in a completely UN-needed thing than to stay unified, EVEN if by chance they didn't understand their brother bishop's arguments.

It's just a simple reality of ecumenism.

It can be truthfully said I am a bi-product of that reality.  If you can no longer trust bishops of the church you once loved and trusted, it brings into question everything bishops have ever done to the original church. (for me anyway).    Most people "simply leave".  My mind doesn't work like that.  I look for answers of when things went awry.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #399 on: August 07, 2014, 12:15:02 PM »
I don't know the particulars of the Macedonian situation, but in general I think it's a bit more complicated than the "light switch" approach you seem to have described.
Ouch...  ;D Better dont open can of worms... 
There is problem, one of first episcopal consecrations was performed by single Bishop.

The OCA is in communion with everyone, despite the non-recognition of their autocephaly by some local Churches.  Back in the day, ROCOR was only in communion with one or two local Churches, and opinion as to their "Churchness" was certainly divided to say the least.  There are other examples, including "stand alone" jurisdictions.   
It is bit mor muddy than it seems. For decade or two, what become OCA was part of ROCOR, and ROCOR was pretty much in Communion with everyone till 1943...  except with "Sergians", refering to period between two wars is risky, it was period when EP was in communion with "Living Church" in Russia...

This is exactly what I am talking about.  OCA, ROCOR, and all the other bishops, why not cast aside stubborn issues, quit engaging in non-traditional Orthodox events (such as WCC) and re-unify the church?

Consider at one time crossing yourself with two fingers led to schisms.  Today you have Ecumenical Patriarchs handing a chalice to a Lutheran (posted picture many times before).   

Sometimes I wonder if bishops should be younger.   As I deal with more seniors, I realize old men who butt heads with each other are just stubborn curmudgeons who just want their own way (when often their way is pretty close or the same - LOL).   I have no other way to explain it.   Really "dialog" with Lutherans and Catholics OVER unification with another synod.....
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #400 on: August 07, 2014, 12:17:49 PM »
Yeshua if it was your intention to have a reasonable debate it’s best not to call or at least compare your opponents to pagans or their practices to pagans. If you want to make that case then make it. Do we find in paganism the distinction between the one depicted and the actual figure the image is based on being made and obsessed over, like it was in the time of the iconoclast/Iconodule struggles? Do we find in paganism a unique theology like that of John Damascene and his defence of icons? Did pagans really care about such things or simply having a statue to worship and not going beyond that?

Since you are familiar with eastern Orthodoxy you would also be familiar with all the other things we kiss and venerate. We don’t only kiss icons we kiss each other, we kiss the cross, we kiss the bible, we kiss the priest’s hand. Do you think in these actions we are violating the spirit of the command not to worship idols, which you take so seriously? You must know we don’t worship the actual physical item right? That we know that God is utterly beyond this physical world in his divinity right?

Would you be opposed to kissing the bible? Holding the bible in reverence (The gospel is paraded around the church during the liturgy after all and it is held up high, Would you be opposed to kissing and bowing towards Christ Jesus himself if he were in front of you?


Remember this, a person is NOT a dead lifeless image.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #401 on: August 07, 2014, 12:34:45 PM »
This always happens.   Read my words more carefully and don't fill my thoughts.

I wish you offer us the same courtesy, but you won't, not even in this post.  For instance:

Quote
See there's this thing...

Walk up to an icon of Christ.
Cross yourself.
Bow before it.
Cross yourself again.
Bow again.
Venerate the wood with an "image" of Christ on it.
Back off walking backwards.
Cross yourself.
Bow again.

You just helped your faith and to do the will of God.  It makes you so much more embellished in his word and teachings.

I'm sorry I see stuff like the above example as ridiculous and heretical as all get up.

None of us venerates wood.  We venerate the image.  The wood is just the vehicle for the image.  There are icons on wood, on paper, on fabric, on glass, but no one venerates the material on which the icon appears as a thing in itself, they venerate the image.  If I took your Bible and threw it in a pile of manure, you would be shocked, because you would not think of it as me throwing a pile of papers stitched together into a pile of manure, you would see the disrespect as focused on the word of God.  The same principle is involved here.  No matter how much this is explained to you, you refuse to get it, because you are "filling our thoughts" to convince yourself of the badness of something you already decided you don't like.  Stop the foolishness.  

Also, you criticise "walking backwards".  Personally, I don't do this because I just don't, but I don't criticise people for reverence.  Only the irreverent would ridicule piety and the fear of God.


This is where we differ.  You are comparing venerating an image in opposite context to a bible going into manure and the shock of it.

Of course, it would be shocking for a bible to go into a pile of manure.  Not because I venerate or worship the bible, it is because somebody would be trying to disrespect me as a person for throwing out a book that I value so much into the manure.   It would also be my property you are doing that to.  God's word stands however, no matter how much manure people throw it into.

In the case of icons, adoration or superfluous spiritual connotations are put upon the icon, emphasized with the icon, and hypersensitive "holy" attributes are conjoined with the image.   The image itself is lifeless, which God's own words detest.  While the Eucharist is the spoken and written ultimate focus of the Eastern Orthodox Church, unfortunately, experience and being within the church itself for decades dictates differently.  I've witnessed an incredible focus towards icons - even perhaps - above Eucharist (never would be admitted).  Bowing, venerating, blessing, censing, and visual focal, is directed much more towards the icons in the church, than the Eucharist.

I am not throwing down what the EO thinks of Eucharist here, as any EO knows, it is absolutely held to importance.  Any person in the church would say it is ultimately the most important thing in the church.  This is fine.  But the actions prove otherwise.   (consider how many times the icons are censed in the church vs. Eucharist).

So to go towards my OP, the image of YHWH in the Golden calf, was worshipped in proxy of YHWH.  This is exactly like icons, except for icons have depictions of people on them.  (Traditional looks, probably not actual).   There is even an image of YHWH in icons depicting the trinity.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #402 on: August 07, 2014, 12:36:59 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if bishops should be younger.   As I deal with more seniors, I realize old men who butt heads with each other are just stubborn curmudgeons who just want their own way (when often their way is pretty close or the same - LOL).   

If the alternative is ordaining some of the stellar young men of OCNet as bishops, I'd rather deal with stubborn, curmudgeonly old men. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #403 on: August 07, 2014, 12:43:05 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if bishops should be younger.   As I deal with more seniors, I realize old men who butt heads with each other are just stubborn curmudgeons who just want their own way (when often their way is pretty close or the same - LOL).   

If the alternative is ordaining some of the stellar young men of OCNet as bishops, I'd rather deal with stubborn, curmudgeonly old men. 

Well the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Bishop (he went to SVS by the way) in Ohio is only 43, Bishop Gregory in Johnstown is maybe 52 or so.... but I don't think either one posts here or ever did....

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #404 on: August 07, 2014, 12:47:59 PM »



Remember this, a person is NOT a dead lifeless image.
Also remeber you are NOT capable of understanding Holy Scriptures in their original language...
Now what is theological or philosophical definition of person... Looking forward to hear. ;D