Author Topic: How are icons different than the golden calf?  (Read 12752 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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How are icons different than the golden calf?
« on: July 14, 2014, 09:11:44 PM »
We see in exodus 32, that the people made a golden calf in representation of YHWH.

KJV - BEGIN QUOTE:
32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.   ****NOTE "Lord"  used here is לַיהוָ֖ה which means YHWH

6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
END QUOTE

So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

How is this different than icons? There are candles and incense (burt offerings) to them.  They are revered, bowed to and venerated.

Is the Orthodox church building altars in front of images (in proxy) of God, like Aaron did?
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Offline biro

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 09:13:32 PM »
  ::)

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 09:18:39 PM »
Jesus Christ became man so we may make an image of His incarnate form.  We do not worship the wood and paint but he who is represented by the image.  Before Christ took on human nature, it was not possible to represent any of the Trinity by any image, much less that of an animal.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 09:20:09 PM »
Welcome Back Again Yesh.

What in real life made you so grouchy you decided to come back and try (for the billionth time) again with the same thought topic?

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 09:24:23 PM »
Again?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 09:53:52 PM »
So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

If they knew that "YHWH whom they could not see" brought them out of Egypt, where did they get the idea to depict him as a calf?
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Offline homedad76

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 10:19:09 PM »
Also if you note Aaron talks about gods.  Many of the Hebrews of that time believed the Lord to be a tribal god and not the singular deity He actually is.  And as others have said they were worshipping the actual idol just like the pagans did with their idols.  Icons are NOT idols just as statues in Catholic belief are not, they do not contain any essence or part of the person or being they represent.  They are simply a visual reference since the human mind is prone to wandering and can always use a focal point.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 10:37:05 PM »
How was the ark of the covenant different than the golden calf?

We see in Exodus 25 that the people made a mercy seat with representations of cherubims on it.

Then you shall make a mercy-seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its width. You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy-seat. Make one cherub at one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy-seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy-seat with their wings. They shall face each other; the faces of the cherubim shall be turned towards the mercy-seat. You shall put the mercy-seat on the top of the ark; and in the ark you shall put the covenant* that I shall give you. There I will meet you, and from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the covenant, I will deliver to you all my commands for the Israelites.

...

and in Chapter 30

Once a year Aaron shall perform the rite of atonement on its horns. Throughout your generations he shall perform the atonement for it once a year with the blood of the atoning sin-offering. It is most holy to the Lord.

So here we have PRIESTS who perform RITES in front of IDOLS. They placed the blood of atoning sin-offerings in front of the idols, they burnt incense in front of the idols.  How is this any different than the golden calf? Not only that, but there were images of cherubims ALL OVER the tabernacle. They had incense burned in front of them and sacrifices done before them.  Is it possible that the Tabernacle and Temple worship were the REAL reason God judged Israel?

Hmmm, the plot thickens...
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 10:42:10 PM »
The OP surely knows of the refutations against iconoclasm of St Theodore the Studite and the declarations and anathemas of the Church regarding the false teachings of the iconoclasts. I understand that he doesn't agree with them but his argument is neither novel nor is it in any way remotely persuasive. His arguments and similar ones of others have been rebutted for centuries.

A fairly good presentation about St Theodore's "Refutations" can be found here: "St. Theodore the Studite against the Iconoclasts" http://onbehalfofall.org/st-theodore-the-studite-against-the-iconoclasts/   The author observes that "...associating icons with pagan idols not only disrespects our fathers in the faith, but also the Church—the very Body of Christ and pillar and foundation of the truth. This is unacceptable for both Theodore and the orthodox party. "If anyone should say that, when he venerates the icon of Christ, he is venerating Christ’s divinity present naturally in the icon, rather than only insofar as the icon is the shadow of the flesh which is united to the divinity (since the Godhead is everywhere), he is a heretic." This is an important distinction, often absent from our present discussions. Icons are holy because of the holy persons or events depicted, but the wood, gold, and paint are not imbued with a special sort of divinity greater than the rest of creation—for God is everywhere present, filling all things. "

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 11:01:08 PM »
Ugh. You start this thread after Bingo was won? I'm taking it personally.  ;)
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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 11:33:04 PM »
We see in exodus 32, that the people made a golden calf in representation of YHWH.

KJV - BEGIN QUOTE:
32 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.   ****NOTE "Lord"  used here is לַיהוָ֖ה which means YHWH

6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
END QUOTE

So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

How is this different than icons? There are candles and incense (burt offerings) to them.  They are revered, bowed to and venerated.

Is the Orthodox church building altars in front of images (in proxy) of God, like Aaron did?

If you notice in the text you quoted above (verse 4 in particular which I have highlighted all of), the Israelites seemed to have associated the golden calf directly with the Lord (it's also interested that in nearly all the translations I've seen of this verse gods is rendered in the plural). Orthodox Christians never claim that icons never share the same essence of their prototype, which may be the case of the Isrealites and the golden calf.

You also should take into account that this is before the incarnation. Christ, as St. Paul tells us, is the "image (literally ikon in Greek) of the living God". The invisible God has taken on flesh and become visible. The Law of the OT which prohibited the making of images of the invisible God has become fulfilled in Christ who is the true image of the invisible God.

Finally, you'd have the make a case that what Orthodox Christians offer to icons constitutes worship rather than veneration.  As St. John Chrysostom once said: "We pray in front of the image of Him whom we worship."
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Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 12:19:55 AM »
From St John of Damascus, who really does have an answer for everything:

Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of the God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 12:22:15 AM »
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship. That said, I don't think your argument is very strong. However, I do sometimes fear and wonder--as Protestant as this sounds--if many uneducated people in the Orthodox Church are actually worshipping the Theotokos opposed to merely venerating her. This comes from my anecdotal experience of people seemingly being more reverent toward her and her Icon than they are toward Christ's.

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 12:27:38 AM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 12:34:42 AM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2014, 01:06:59 AM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?) 

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2014, 01:08:32 AM »
How did I know that Jesusisiam started this thread without even looking? :police:

For one, God approves of Icons.
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Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 01:11:03 AM »
Yesh, I posted earlier a paragraph from St John of Damascus. After you've read it and understood it, please post your thoughts.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 01:11:17 AM »
How was the ark of the covenant different than the golden calf?

We see in Exodus 25 that the people made a mercy seat with representations of cherubims on it.

Then you shall make a mercy-seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its width. You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy-seat. Make one cherub at one end, and one cherub at the other; of one piece with the mercy-seat you shall make the cherubim at its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy-seat with their wings. They shall face each other; the faces of the cherubim shall be turned towards the mercy-seat. You shall put the mercy-seat on the top of the ark; and in the ark you shall put the covenant* that I shall give you. There I will meet you, and from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the covenant, I will deliver to you all my commands for the Israelites.

...

and in Chapter 30

Once a year Aaron shall perform the rite of atonement on its horns. Throughout your generations he shall perform the atonement for it once a year with the blood of the atoning sin-offering. It is most holy to the Lord.

So here we have PRIESTS who perform RITES in front of IDOLS. They placed the blood of atoning sin-offerings in front of the idols, they burnt incense in front of the idols.  How is this any different than the golden calf? Not only that, but there were images of cherubims ALL OVER the tabernacle. They had incense burned in front of them and sacrifices done before them.  Is it possible that the Tabernacle and Temple worship were the REAL reason God judged Israel?

Hmmm, the plot thickens...

So you are questioning the very Hebrew roots of the Christian church then?

It is interesting how God specifically told them how to make the ark.  I mean you are questioning God himself vs. his commandments.

In my world if God tells me to do something I do it even if I don't understand it.

Also which judgment of Israel do you refer to.
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Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 01:12:52 AM »
For one, God approves of Icons.

Indeed He does. His Son is His Icon, and the Son, who is also God, also made the very first icon by pressing a cloth to His face, leaving behind an image of it.

Not that this hasn't been said to Yesh before.  :P
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 01:14:42 AM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
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« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:15:08 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 01:15:57 AM »
For one, God approves of Icons.

Indeed He does. His Son is His Icon, and the Son, who is also God, also made the very first icon by pressing a cloth to His face, leaving behind an image of it.

Not that this hasn't been said to Yesh before.  :P

This has all been said to Yesh before, and yet...
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 01:18:23 AM »
In my world if God tells me to do something I do it even if I don't understand it.
So you are admitting you don't know what you are doing when you are doing it.

It shows.

Seems you have no problem questioning what God has told us on the Holy Icons.
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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 01:19:24 AM »
The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?) 

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?

When the Isrealites bowed in the direction of the Mercy Seat in the Temple (which was overshadowed with graven images of cherubim), were they committing idolatry? Your logic would seem to indicate so.
"Vanity of vanities, said Ecclesiastes vanity of vanities, and all is vanity."

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 01:19:33 AM »
From St John of Damascus, who really does have an answer for everything:

Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of the God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.


He lived in the 700's and directly made an excuse why to violate the commandment of God.  I know as an EO Christian you'd take his words on authority, but seriously, I do not.

It's ironic that a saint would not adhere to the commandment of God.  

From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

His excuse "Oh because God came down and we think we know exactly what he looks like in the year 700+, it's okay to make images now and bow to them because it's not the image but that represented on the likeness of something in heaven".

History repeats itself brother, just as the Israelites made the image of the calf to represent YHWH.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2014, 01:20:48 AM »
In my world if God tells me to do something I do it even if I don't understand it.
So you are admitting you don't know what you are doing when you are doing it.

It shows.

Seems you have no problem questioning what God has told us on the Holy Icons.

And what has God told you on the "holy" icons?
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Offline Sam G

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 01:21:16 AM »
From St John of Damascus, who really does have an answer for everything:

Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of the God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.


He lived in the 700's and directly made an excuse why to violate the commandment of God.  I know as an EO Christian you'd take his words on authority, but seriously, I do not.

It's ironic that a saint would not adhere to the commandment of God.  

From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

His excuse "Oh because God came down and we think we know exactly what he looks like in the year 700+, it's okay to make images now and bow to them because it's not the image but that represented on the likeness of something in heaven".

History repeats itself brother, just as the Israelites made the image of the calf to represent YHWH.

Yes, and you live in the 2000's and are offering your own interpretation of the second commandment.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 01:22:08 AM »
So here we have the Israelites making an image of YHWH, our God.   They made the image and bowed down to it in proxy of God.   They of course knew this image didn't bring them out of Israel, but YHWH whom they could not see.

If they knew that "YHWH whom they could not see" brought them out of Egypt, where did they get the idea to depict him as a calf?
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 01:22:18 AM »
Why do you care so much if we are idolaters? You post the same crap over and over ad infinitum.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 01:23:00 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2014, 01:24:23 AM »
Quote
There was no Incarnation yet and there was no distinction between veneration and worship.

Not so. There are many instances of veneration of people and of objects in the OT, as a sign of great respect and honor.

I meant in the case of the calf. The Israelites were worshipping it opposed to venerating it.

The problem with this is that they believed the calf to be in representation of YHWH, much like the Egyptians used idols to represent their "God's" in proxy.

The golden calf, was a representation of YHWH.  Moses destroyed it. (first iconoclast?)  

Think of the timeline -

YHWH brought out the Israelites from Egypt
(no golden calf existed)

Later they made a golden calf which was proclaimed the gods (elohim in Hebrew) which brought them out of Egypt.    (presenting them with the golden calf which did not exist at the time of their exit)

Later they were going to have a feast unto YHWH (Lord).

This should clarify exodus 20:4
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Likeness = proxy = or a representation of something.

A likeness of something in heaven is exactly what an icon is.  His commandment is not to bow down to them which is exactly what EO Christians do.

EO Christians also burn candles in front of the likeness of things in heaven.

The Israelites made a golden calf to YHWH (lord), in a likeness (because the calf did not exist during he exit obviously).  They bowed down to it in proxy, burned offerings to it.

So my question is super simple:

Is an icon of Jesus Christ an image in the likeness of something in heaven?
(Acts 2:33)

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians make this image of Jesus and believe he is in heaven?

Do Eastern Orthodox Christians bow down in front of this likeness of something in heaven?

If YHWH commanded (in his 10 commandments) to not make any likeness of anything in heaven or bow down to it - and the Eastern Orthodox are making something in the likeness of something in heaven and bowing down to it - does this violate God's commandment?

Are you afraid of violating God's commandment?
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2014, 01:25:13 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2014, 01:26:16 AM »
Yesh, the Greek word eikona means image. What language was the NT originally written, again?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2014, 01:26:25 AM »
From St John of Damascus, who really does have an answer for everything:

Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of the God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.


He lived in the 700's and directly made an excuse why to violate the commandment of God.  I know as an EO Christian you'd take his words on authority, but seriously, I do not.
You live in the 21st century and directly make excuse why to violate the commandment of God to obey the Church.  I know as a Protestant you expect us to take your words on authority, but seriously, we do not.

It's ironic that a saint would not adhere to the commandment of God.
 
It's not a surprise that an apostate would not adhere to the commandments of God.

From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."
From His Own words "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."

His excuse "Oh because God came down and we think we know exactly what he looks like in the year 700+, it's okay to make images now and bow to them because it's not the image but that represented on the likeness of something in heaven".
Your excuse that the Church which preserved the Bible did not understand it until you came along.

History repeats itself brother, just as the Israelites made the image of the calf to represent YHWH.
Indeed. But we're not bowing to the image you are setting up, nor kissing its foot.
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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2014, 01:26:30 AM »
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Can you read Greek?  At least three of us know enough Greek to know that this is total nonsense.    
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2014, 01:27:19 AM »
Yesh, the Greek word eikona means image. What language was the NT originally written, again?
It wasn't Jacobean English with a Texan drawl?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2014, 01:27:39 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2014, 01:28:16 AM »
In my world if God tells me to do something I do it even if I don't understand it.

Is 'God' telling you to post the same old stuff repeatedly on this forum?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2014, 01:28:45 AM »
His Beloved Son Who is the Icon of the invisible God Col. 1:14-15.

Twisted logic beyond reason.
He did not say icon.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, unlike man makes images of icons.

Can you read Greek?  At least three of us know enough Greek to know that this is total nonsense.    
I would post
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
but I don't think Jesusisiam is one of the three.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2014, 01:29:59 AM »
Yesh, the Greek word eikona means image. What language was the NT originally written, again?

Pennsylvania Deutsch
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2014, 01:30:29 AM »
Why do you care so much if we are idolaters? You post the same crap over and over ad infinitum.

Kelly you don't make any good contributions to any of my threads.  Others at least try to attempt to discuss and prove the theology.

I think you are here merely to argue and sling mud.  If you don't like debate, there are many other sections of this forum of non-controversial topics.

And to answer, I'd care if anybody was an idolater.   There is history in the church where icons were called idols.   Then there is history in the church where the iconodules murdered those calling icons idols.  (love your enemies).  It's actually pretty scary.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2014, 01:31:50 AM »
Quote
From his own words "I make and image of the God who can be seen..."
From YHWH's words "Do not make any image in the likeness of anything in heaven, or on the Earth..."

Was Christ invisible when He lived among men? Is Christ God, or not? Did God become incarnate? Or not?

Of course he is God.  God came in his own image.   Man did not make this image, as it was God himself.

Yet God Himself, Jesus Christ, made an image of Himself on a cloth, to be sent to heal a dying man. Was Christ disobeying His Father when He did that?

The shroud is a legend with a sketchy history. 
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Offline Theophania

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2014, 01:32:19 AM »
There is no use contributing anything to your threads because you don't listen to anyone. You post the same things over and over, get the same answers, shut up for a while, and then come back posting the same things again.

You're not going to convert anybody here.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2014, 01:32:40 AM »
In my world if God tells me to do something I do it even if I don't understand it.
So you are admitting you don't know what you are doing when you are doing it.

It shows.

Seems you have no problem questioning what God has told us on the Holy Icons.

And what has God told you on the "holy" icons?
The One Whose Fullness was pleased to dwell in Christ, "For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

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Re: How are icons different than the golden calf?
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2014, 01:32:47 AM »
Quote
Others at least try to attempt to discuss and prove the theology.

Which you consistently and stubbornly refuse to accept its truth.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?