Author Topic: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?  (Read 523 times)

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Online Mor Ephrem

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RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« on: July 12, 2014, 05:56:09 PM »
Isa,

You might enjoy this.  ;)

Quote
Is the Pope infallible when he proclaims a new saint?

According to the prevailing doctrine of the Church, when the Pope canonizes a saint his judgment is infallible. As is known, canonization is the decree with which the Pope solemnly proclaims that the heavenly glory shines upon the Blessed and extends the cult of the new saint to the universal Church in a binding and definitive manner. There is no question then that canonization is an act carried out by the Petrine primate. At the same time, however, it should not be considered infallible according to the infallibility criteria set out in the First Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution “Pastor aeternus”.

So, according to you, this means the Pope can make a mistake when he proclaims someone a saint?

That’s not what I said. I am not denying that the decree issued for a canonization cause is definitive, so it would be rash and indeed unholy to state that the Pope can make a mistake. What I am saying, is that the proclamation of a person’s sainthood is not a truth of faith because it is not a dogmatic definition and is not directly or explicitly linked to a truth of faith or a moral truth contained in the revelation, but is only indirectly linked to this. It is no coincidence that neither the Code of Canon Law of 1917 nor the one currently in force, nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church present the Church’s doctrine regarding canonizations.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-canonizations-infallible-or-not.html
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 06:49:41 PM »
The Pope is doubly infallible now? Maybe there are degrees of infallibility.
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Offline Sam G

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2014, 11:11:05 PM »
Isa,

You might enjoy this.  ;)

Quote
Is the Pope infallible when he proclaims a new saint?

According to the prevailing doctrine of the Church, when the Pope canonizes a saint his judgment is infallible. As is known, canonization is the decree with which the Pope solemnly proclaims that the heavenly glory shines upon the Blessed and extends the cult of the new saint to the universal Church in a binding and definitive manner. There is no question then that canonization is an act carried out by the Petrine primate. At the same time, however, it should not be considered infallible according to the infallibility criteria set out in the First Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution “Pastor aeternus”.

So, according to you, this means the Pope can make a mistake when he proclaims someone a saint?

That’s not what I said. I am not denying that the decree issued for a canonization cause is definitive, so it would be rash and indeed unholy to state that the Pope can make a mistake. What I am saying, is that the proclamation of a person’s sainthood is not a truth of faith because it is not a dogmatic definition and is not directly or explicitly linked to a truth of faith or a moral truth contained in the revelation, but is only indirectly linked to this. It is no coincidence that neither the Code of Canon Law of 1917 nor the one currently in force, nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church present the Church’s doctrine regarding canonizations.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-canonizations-infallible-or-not.html

So, the Pope can't make a mistake (meaning the canonization must be true), but the faithful are not required to believe the Pope?

Kinda sounds like how most Catholics view contraception.
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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2014, 11:14:14 PM »
Isa,

You might enjoy this.  ;)

Quote
Is the Pope infallible when he proclaims a new saint?

According to the prevailing doctrine of the Church, when the Pope canonizes a saint his judgment is infallible. As is known, canonization is the decree with which the Pope solemnly proclaims that the heavenly glory shines upon the Blessed and extends the cult of the new saint to the universal Church in a binding and definitive manner. There is no question then that canonization is an act carried out by the Petrine primate. At the same time, however, it should not be considered infallible according to the infallibility criteria set out in the First Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution “Pastor aeternus”.

So, according to you, this means the Pope can make a mistake when he proclaims someone a saint?

That’s not what I said. I am not denying that the decree issued for a canonization cause is definitive, so it would be rash and indeed unholy to state that the Pope can make a mistake. What I am saying, is that the proclamation of a person’s sainthood is not a truth of faith because it is not a dogmatic definition and is not directly or explicitly linked to a truth of faith or a moral truth contained in the revelation, but is only indirectly linked to this. It is no coincidence that neither the Code of Canon Law of 1917 nor the one currently in force, nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church present the Church’s doctrine regarding canonizations.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-canonizations-infallible-or-not.html

So, the Pope can't make a mistake (meaning the canonization must be true), but the faithful are not required to believe the Pope?

Kinda sounds like how most Catholics view contraception.

It's different when it's about sex.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline ialmisry

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 11:23:52 PM »
Isa,

You might enjoy this.  ;)

Quote
Is the Pope infallible when he proclaims a new saint?

According to the prevailing doctrine of the Church, when the Pope canonizes a saint his judgment is infallible. As is known, canonization is the decree with which the Pope solemnly proclaims that the heavenly glory shines upon the Blessed and extends the cult of the new saint to the universal Church in a binding and definitive manner. There is no question then that canonization is an act carried out by the Petrine primate. At the same time, however, it should not be considered infallible according to the infallibility criteria set out in the First Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution “Pastor aeternus”.

So, according to you, this means the Pope can make a mistake when he proclaims someone a saint?

That’s not what I said. I am not denying that the decree issued for a canonization cause is definitive, so it would be rash and indeed unholy to state that the Pope can make a mistake. What I am saying, is that the proclamation of a person’s sainthood is not a truth of faith because it is not a dogmatic definition and is not directly or explicitly linked to a truth of faith or a moral truth contained in the revelation, but is only indirectly linked to this. It is no coincidence that neither the Code of Canon Law of 1917 nor the one currently in force, nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church present the Church’s doctrine regarding canonizations.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-canonizations-infallible-or-not.html
Well, I'm glad they cleared that up as only the Vatican and its most ardent supporters can. :laugh:
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2014, 06:40:28 PM »
Isa,

You might enjoy this.  ;)

Quote
Is the Pope infallible when he proclaims a new saint?

According to the prevailing doctrine of the Church, when the Pope canonizes a saint his judgment is infallible. As is known, canonization is the decree with which the Pope solemnly proclaims that the heavenly glory shines upon the Blessed and extends the cult of the new saint to the universal Church in a binding and definitive manner. There is no question then that canonization is an act carried out by the Petrine primate. At the same time, however, it should not be considered infallible according to the infallibility criteria set out in the First Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution “Pastor aeternus”.

So, according to you, this means the Pope can make a mistake when he proclaims someone a saint?

That’s not what I said. I am not denying that the decree issued for a canonization cause is definitive, so it would be rash and indeed unholy to state that the Pope can make a mistake. What I am saying, is that the proclamation of a person’s sainthood is not a truth of faith because it is not a dogmatic definition and is not directly or explicitly linked to a truth of faith or a moral truth contained in the revelation, but is only indirectly linked to this. It is no coincidence that neither the Code of Canon Law of 1917 nor the one currently in force, nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church present the Church’s doctrine regarding canonizations.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-canonizations-infallible-or-not.html

Oy vey. ::)  And folks wonder why the Catholic Church is such a mess.  Or...(dare I say?) if it is really the Catholic Church. :o
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Offline J Michael

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2014, 06:41:14 PM »
Isa,

You might enjoy this.  ;)

Quote
Is the Pope infallible when he proclaims a new saint?

According to the prevailing doctrine of the Church, when the Pope canonizes a saint his judgment is infallible. As is known, canonization is the decree with which the Pope solemnly proclaims that the heavenly glory shines upon the Blessed and extends the cult of the new saint to the universal Church in a binding and definitive manner. There is no question then that canonization is an act carried out by the Petrine primate. At the same time, however, it should not be considered infallible according to the infallibility criteria set out in the First Vatican Council’s dogmatic constitution “Pastor aeternus”.

So, according to you, this means the Pope can make a mistake when he proclaims someone a saint?

That’s not what I said. I am not denying that the decree issued for a canonization cause is definitive, so it would be rash and indeed unholy to state that the Pope can make a mistake. What I am saying, is that the proclamation of a person’s sainthood is not a truth of faith because it is not a dogmatic definition and is not directly or explicitly linked to a truth of faith or a moral truth contained in the revelation, but is only indirectly linked to this. It is no coincidence that neither the Code of Canon Law of 1917 nor the one currently in force, nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church present the Church’s doctrine regarding canonizations.”

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/07/so-canonizations-infallible-or-not.html

So, the Pope can't make a mistake (meaning the canonization must be true), but the faithful are not required to believe the Pope?

Kinda sounds like how most Catholics view contraception.

It's different when it's about sex.

Most things are different when it's about sex. 
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Online Shlomlokh

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2014, 06:50:41 PM »
The Pope is doubly infallible now? Maybe there are degrees of infallibility.
For Peter J: there is low infallibility, high infallibility and absolutist infallibility.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline gueranger

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 11:19:22 AM »
The Pope is doubly infallible now? Maybe there are degrees of infallibility.
For Peter J: there is low infallibility, high infallibility and absolutist infallibility.

In Christ,
Andrew

LOL.

Offline gueranger

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 11:23:42 AM »
I think this is an example of trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Offline sakura95

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 11:55:01 AM »
The first response rather contradicts itself, it says that the Pope is infallible when Canonizing Saints and then after that, "Not Infallible" which then leads to the disclaim that His Holiness "cannot make a mistake". This practically renders Papal Infallibility as illogical as a Pope cannot be "Infallible" and then "Fallible" at the same time or when "Canonizing Saints". This is simply akin to me saying that I'm "happy" and then at the same time, "not happy". It simply doesn't make sense.

Admittedly, I used to believe and even defended this Doctrine in a discussion about Roman Catholicism with some Protestant lecturers in college before.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 12:06:32 PM »
The first response rather contradicts itself, it says that the Pope is infallible when Canonizing Saints and then after that, "Not Infallible" which then leads to the disclaim that His Holiness "cannot make a mistake". This practically renders Papal Infallibility as illogical as a Pope cannot be "Infallible" and then "Fallible" at the same time or when "Canonizing Saints". This is simply akin to me saying that I'm "happy" and then at the same time, "not happy". It simply doesn't make sense.

Admittedly, I used to believe and even defended this Doctrine in a discussion about Roman Catholicism with some Protestant lecturers in college before.
I wonder, do we have Schrödinger's cathedra?
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 12:10:26 PM »
If you ask me, that blog, being near-schismatic traditionalist, is fishing for loopholes not to venerate St. John Paul II  ;)
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Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 01:08:29 PM »
If you ask me, that blog, being near-schismatic traditionalist, is fishing for loopholes not to venerate St. John Paul II  ;)

The comment above reflects a strain of Roman Catholicism which I find distasteful, whether it is an expression of "legitimate" RCism or of another school within it.  According to this line of thinking, Roman Catholicism is whatever the reigning Pope says and does, and as long as you remain in communion (and not out of it, like the SSPV or those women who go and get ordained on boats), you can get away with almost anything.  "Almost", because it's easier to fall out of favour for going too far to the right than it is in the other direction.   

Put another way, what about all the near-schismatic liberals fishing for loopholes not to recognise the old Roman liturgy, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, etc.? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline sakura95

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Re: RC - So... Canonizations... Infallible or not?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 01:18:47 PM »
The first response rather contradicts itself, it says that the Pope is infallible when Canonizing Saints and then after that, "Not Infallible" which then leads to the disclaim that His Holiness "cannot make a mistake". This practically renders Papal Infallibility as illogical as a Pope cannot be "Infallible" and then "Fallible" at the same time or when "Canonizing Saints". This is simply akin to me saying that I'm "happy" and then at the same time, "not happy". It simply doesn't make sense.

Admittedly, I used to believe and even defended this Doctrine in a discussion about Roman Catholicism with some Protestant lecturers in college before.
I wonder, do we have Schrödinger's cathedra?


Now all we need is just a big box to put the Pope in each time he is going to Canonize new Saints or make a decree, close it and then open it again to see whether the Pope is infallible or not.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy