Author Topic: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?  (Read 13092 times)

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Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2014, 04:40:15 PM »
Not necessarily. 
it would, however, have to be some serious extenuating circumstances.
Could confessing that infidelity do more harm than good?

What does it matter if it's going to come to light someday anyway? Might as well do it fast like a band-aid instead of letting it build up and get worse. I imagine most spouses would feel more angry and betrayed if they found out years later that their spouse was unfaithful to them than if that party confessed right away.

Of course, maybe they'll never find out. But you never know. I'd rather confess it than to risk it coming out years later and having to be paranoid forever about that partner finding out the truth.

Plus, it seems very dishonest and jerk-ish to keep such a secret from someone. Treat others as you'd like. I certainly wouldn't want infidelity kept a secret from me; that being said, I'd feel morally pressured into confessing it.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2014, 04:40:37 PM »
There isn't much more to be said here that mina has not already said.  At some point, you young fellas will come to realize that very little is black and white in the world. Absolutes are easy to pronounce but destructive to live by. I think in the VAST overwhelming situations that arise, the spouse should be made aware and a counseling priest would urge in that direction. Counseling isn't math though. This isn't 2+2=4.  If a counselor or priest gives everyone the same exact advice for the same situations, you wouldn't need a counselor, you need a computer.

Input problem.
Problem = infidelity

Please wait while we process this problem...

Response = divorce him and sue him for all he's got.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2014, 04:41:37 PM »
Guilt isn't a natural feeling.

Aren't you the one toting around the idea that "everything that happens in nature is natural"?  Or is that only when talking about masturbation, fornication, drugs, tobacco, guns, etc.?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2014, 04:42:55 PM »
For myself, if my wife ever did cheat on me, I would prefer she never tell me.  If any of you become her confessor when she eventually converts to Orthodoxy, please keep that in mind.  ;)
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2014, 04:43:34 PM »
... Guilt isn't a natural feeling.

True guilt is a natural psychological pain analogous to physical pain -- it serves an important purpose. Another important natural pain people nowadays seem to try to deny is shame. If a guilty person had been receptive to shame, he would often have avoided guilt. The Apostles and Church offer teachings on these subjects.

Of course there are artificial counterfeits of both these, and they can even be commoner than the true, but this does not prove guilt and shame are "unnatural."
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2014, 04:45:13 PM »
There isn't much more to be said here that mina has not already said.  At some point, you young fellas will come to realize that very little is black and white in the world. Absolutes are easy to pronounce but destructive to live by.

Except when it comes to being anti-LGBT marriage and anti-abortion, right?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2014, 04:45:36 PM »
For myself, if my wife ever did cheat on me, I would prefer she never tell me.  If any of you become her confessor when she eventually converts to Orthodoxy, please keep that in mind.  ;)

Are you saying this in the Spirit or as an idea that struck you?
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2014, 04:46:48 PM »
Guilt isn't a natural feeling.

Aren't you the one toting around the idea that "everything that happens in nature is natural"?  Or is that only when talking about masturbation, fornication, drugs, tobacco, guns, etc.?

Perhaps I worded myself wrong.

I think that a person has to choose to feel guilty. When I do something deemed "wrong," I usually don't feel any guilt or remorse about it until I dwell on this religious stuff and in a way, have to "make myself" feel guilty. That being said, I don't think we necessarily have to feel guilty because the feeling of guilt is something we choose more often than we think.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2014, 04:49:29 PM »
For myself, if my wife ever did cheat on me, I would prefer she never tell me.  If any of you become her confessor when she eventually converts to Orthodoxy, please keep that in mind.  ;)

Well I'd certainly want to know. And truth be told, I'd probably divorce her.

Like William, I have extraordinarily high personal standards and I don't think I could be with someone who didn't share the same standards. I'd never stay with an adulteress and similarly I'd never commit adultery on my partner. Again, ask for nothing you yourself aren't willing to give.

If she kept this a secret from me...well, that's even worse than the act itself. It's dishonesty, which I really despise. You become the fool out of the entire thing.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2014, 04:52:10 PM »
For myself, if my wife ever did cheat on me, I would prefer she never tell me.  If any of you become her confessor when she eventually converts to Orthodoxy, please keep that in mind.  ;)

Are you saying this in the Spirit or as an idea that struck you?
What does that mean?
God bless!

Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #100 on: July 11, 2014, 04:53:32 PM »
2.  Not that I don't believe such exists, but you'll need something other than the words of Christ to establish a "right to know".  The situation he addressed was one that was or became "public knowledge".

You don't think the Golden Rule would apply here? As well as St. Paul's bit about your body not being your own but your spouse's?

In light of those passages, I'm not sure how many folks there are out there who wouldn't want to know if their spouse cheated on them. I'm not saying them don't exist, but they certainly seem rarer. And if you wouldn't want it to be kept a secret from you, wouldn't it become your responsibility to make sure that you don't keep it a secret from your partner? Especially when your body which you defiled is not your property but that of your spouse?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #101 on: July 11, 2014, 04:54:06 PM »
It looks like we've gotten to the point of the thread where we go from attempting to help the doubter to picking out his personality flaws so to assure ourselves that nothing in his struggle is genuine or could ever affect us. Here is my posting history if you'd like to look for some ammunition: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4091;sa=showPosts

That's fine. I've admitted that I can't change my beliefs here, and God knows I've done that myself plenty here on OC.net with others who have struggled. I'd prefer if we could just agree to disagree, but you can do what you need to do.

If you only wrote on this thread alone, then by all means, no one needs to see your past to see what's wrong with your thinking.  It's okay to have some flaws. Who doesn't have flaws?  The point is to be humble about it.  Sometimes, not everything in this world fits so perfectly in your imagination.

Forget about Christianity or religion for a moment.  Just common sense with some wisdom-based experience can help you achieve a lot of understanding.  Having a saint or a priest tell you some advice does not mean you cannot disagree or cannot change your mind.  A priest telling you advice is a matter of trying to help you elucidate the world better for you, to deal with things in a way you never thought about (in fact, most priests today I understand do take counseling lessons, not just mere patristic wisdom).  Same thing with any therapist or physician.  It is not a matter of infallibility.  It's a matter of practicality to help resolve a problem within a society.

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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #102 on: July 11, 2014, 04:54:41 PM »
There isn't much more to be said here that mina has not already said.  At some point, you young fellas will come to realize that very little is black and white in the world. Absolutes are easy to pronounce but destructive to live by.

Except when it comes to being anti-LGBT marriage and anti-abortion, right?
I think there are grey areas to both of those as well.

I think civil unions should be permitted. I think there are situations where abortion is unfortunately a necessity, particularly when the mother's life is at risk. I am not going to go out of my way to trumpet them as wonderful things, but rather accept them as things that are the result of fallen mankind.
God bless!

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2014, 04:57:43 PM »
For myself, if my wife ever did cheat on me, I would prefer she never tell me.  If any of you become her confessor when she eventually converts to Orthodoxy, please keep that in mind.  ;)

Well I'd certainly want to know. And truth be told, I'd probably divorce her.

Like William, I have extraordinarily high personal standards and I don't think I could be with someone who didn't share the same standards. I'd never stay with an adulteress and similarly I'd never commit adultery on my partner. Again, ask for nothing you yourself aren't willing to give.

If she kept this a secret from me...well, that's even worse than the act itself. It's dishonesty, which I really despise. You become the fool out of the entire thing.
I already told my wife if she cheats on me that I don't want to know about it.  Of course, I'm not too concerned that it would ever happen, but if it does, I would prefer to be oblivious to the fact.  Further, I think if she did tell me, I would prefer it be years later.  If she came to me now and said that she cheated on me a year after we got married, but she cut it off and it never happened again, I would be pretty tore up about it, but I would not divorce her.  We have built up too much since then to throw it all away.
God bless!

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2014, 04:58:18 PM »
...

Perhaps I worded myself wrong.

I think that a person has to choose to feel guilty. When I do something deemed "wrong," I usually don't feel any guilt or remorse about it until I dwell on this religious stuff and in a way, have to "make myself" feel guilty. That being said, I don't think we necessarily have to feel guilty because the feeling of guilt is something we choose more often than we think.

You're not a natural case. For that matter, none of us Westerns is. We are continually conditioned to ignore most impulses that are not materialistic and satisfy a certain set of narrow purposes.
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2014, 05:00:17 PM »
2.  Not that I don't believe such exists, but you'll need something other than the words of Christ to establish a "right to know".  The situation he addressed was one that was or became "public knowledge".

You don't think the Golden Rule would apply here? As well as St. Paul's bit about your body not being your own but your spouse's?

You are the one who referred to Christ's allowance of divorce in the case of adultery.  All I said was that it wasn't enough to defend your thesis.  If you are beginning to read more of Scripture than the occasional proof-text, great.  

Quote
In light of those passages, I'm not sure how many folks there are out there who wouldn't want to know if their spouse cheated on them. I'm not saying them don't exist, but they certainly seem rarer. And if you wouldn't want it to be kept a secret from you, wouldn't it become your responsibility to make sure that you don't keep it a secret from your partner? Especially when your body which you defiled is not your property but that of your spouse?

Keep reading.  "Property" is not the right lens through which to look at these issues.  If you think otherwise, you need a lot more help than anyone can provide in this thread.  
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2014, 05:00:53 PM »
Even if it brings pain the spouse needs to know.

What if it brings pain to more than the spouse?  What if it causes a divorce when there are children?

Still, isn't it kind of unfair and exploitive to screw over an entirely innocent party by keeping it a secret just so that the family doesn't fall apart even though you're the one responsible for it? It seems like a form of outsourcing responsibility to another party like my family had no problem doing with me. I'm all for preserving the family, but if it means lying to an innocent party and thus screwing him/her over, I'm not so sure if it's worth it. Do ends justify means?

Offline Anna.T

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2014, 05:37:22 PM »
So many "gray areas". So many reasons. So many circumstances that might affect opinions, even years from now.

If it is a requirement to tell the spouse of infidelity, with the expectation that it will probably lead to divorce, what about lust?

Christ said that to look at a woman to lust after her is the same as adultery.

Must every instance be confessed? Must it lead to divorce? Even if there are children? Even if it happened years ago and not since?

And as for saying "I would never ... "  There's a reason the saying goes "never say never". It's easy to look forward with eyes that only see a certain color, but then as you pass through life, things get more and more complicated, and you see that it is not as simple as you first expected.

That's not meant to be an insult. It's the human condition.

Again, it's another reason I'm thankful for pastoral wisdom.

What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery? The Law said she should be stoned. Did He mete out the proper punishment? Did He tell her she had to go confess to her husband?

No, He told her "Go and sin no more." Anyone who believes they know the moral thing to do, who would disagree with the heart of Christ, well ....

Let God be true and every man a liar. He IS truth, and none of our ideals or ideas are truth if they don't agree with Him.

I'm not sure of the point of the thread in general anymore though.

But the wise thing to consider is the eternal effect on everyone affected by the situation, and make recommendations based on that, whatever they turn out to be.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 05:39:48 PM by Anna.T »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2014, 05:40:27 PM »
There isn't much more to be said here that mina has not already said.  At some point, you young fellas will come to realize that very little is black and white in the world. Absolutes are easy to pronounce but destructive to live by. I think in the VAST overwhelming situations that arise, the spouse should be made aware and a counseling priest would urge in that direction. Counseling isn't math though. This isn't 2+2=4.  If a counselor or priest gives everyone the same exact advice for the same situations, you wouldn't need a counselor, you need a computer.

Input problem.
Problem = infidelity

Please wait while we process this problem...

Response = divorce him and sue him for all he's got.
quite a moral problem when he isn't the one committing the infidelity.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2014, 05:47:05 PM »
It looks like we've gotten to the point of the thread where we go from attempting to help the doubter to picking out his personality flaws so to assure ourselves that nothing in his struggle is genuine or could ever affect us. Here is my posting history if you'd like to look for some ammunition: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4091;sa=showPosts

That's fine. I've admitted that I can't change my beliefs here, and God knows I've done that myself plenty here on OC.net with others who have struggled. I'd prefer if we could just agree to disagree, but you can do what you need to do.
Since I speak with the voice of experience on this matter, I point out that drawing attention to making dogmatic statements on theoretical situations and justifying it with feelings isn't picking out personality flaws.  It is just pointing out the perils of building on a foundation of sand.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2014, 05:54:48 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2014, 05:56:22 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2014, 05:58:07 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

So is all of Orthodoxy to the biblical literalist (by which I'm not granting your assertion, by the way).
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2014, 05:58:54 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 

Almost no scholar apart from the odd American Baptist fundamentalists consider it authentic and I'm unaware of any patristic commentary on it from the Ante Nicene Fathers and Nicene Fathers. Most commentaries on it come much later. Even St. John Chrysostom, whose homilies I've personally studied very much, says nothing about this story.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2014, 06:02:53 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 

Almost no scholar apart from the odd American Baptist fundamentalists consider it authentic and I'm unaware of any patristic commentary on it from the Ante Nicene Fathers and Nicene Fathers. Most commentaries on it come much later. Even St. John Chrysostom, whose homilies I've personally studied very much, says nothing about this story.

That's not the point.  The prodigal son is not true, but it professes truth.  Really James, really?
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2014, 06:05:58 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 

Almost no scholar apart from the odd American Baptist fundamentalists consider it authentic and I'm unaware of any patristic commentary on it from the Ante Nicene Fathers and Nicene Fathers. Most commentaries on it come much later. Even St. John Chrysostom, whose homilies I've personally studied very much, says nothing about this story.

You will excuse me if I require a bit more substantiation for your claim of considerable scholarly research.  

Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?  
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2014, 06:09:44 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 

Almost no scholar apart from the odd American Baptist fundamentalists consider it authentic and I'm unaware of any patristic commentary on it from the Ante Nicene Fathers and Nicene Fathers. Most commentaries on it come much later. Even St. John Chrysostom, whose homilies I've personally studied very much, says nothing about this story.

That's not the point.  The prodigal son is not true, but it professes truth.  Really James, really?

Who said that the story of the woman adulteress professes truth? It seems fishy all the way if you ask me. Not only is it not really a part of the original narrative, but we don't even know when it was added and who added it. Whoever added it may not have been the Church but could have simply been some weirdo or anti-Semite trying to make a point. I don't see proof or evidence that the story is authentic or true and I don't see proof or evidence that the story professes truth and was truly added by the Church and not just some weirdo or translator.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2014, 06:10:45 PM »
Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?

Yes, IIRC, however, it has the "earlier manuscripts do not include this" disclaimer.

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2014, 06:15:00 PM »
At this point I'm convinced that James is just an internet performance artist.
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2014, 06:15:51 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 

Almost no scholar apart from the odd American Baptist fundamentalists consider it authentic and I'm unaware of any patristic commentary on it from the Ante Nicene Fathers and Nicene Fathers. Most commentaries on it come much later. Even St. John Chrysostom, whose homilies I've personally studied very much, says nothing about this story.

You will excuse me if I require a bit more substantiation for your claim of considerable scholarly research.  

Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?  

That was going to be my question - is it canonical?

It is my understanding that the Protoevangelion of James was read in Churches (and was implicitly accepted) until it started being used by heretics to support errors, so it was no longer read, and not made part of the canon. But anything that DID make it into the canon (including additions) were necessarily regarded by the Church as being illustrative of Truth.

If we start undercutting Scripture, and thus the Tradition and Church that supports it - what do we have left to trust?

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but do you think this story misrepresents the heart of Our Lord?
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2014, 06:16:19 PM »
James, there's no question of its being Scriptural. You're confusing higher criticism's attempt to unveil original authorship, and so forth, with what makes a writing canonical.

(However, even from the critical perspective of whether "X" wrote the story, your position is hardly inarguable. But why change the whole topic of the thread?)
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2014, 06:17:32 PM »
What did Jesus do when they brought Him the woman who had been caught in adultery?

That story is not true. It's an addition.

LOL.  Just stop. 

Almost no scholar apart from the odd American Baptist fundamentalists consider it authentic and I'm unaware of any patristic commentary on it from the Ante Nicene Fathers and Nicene Fathers. Most commentaries on it come much later. Even St. John Chrysostom, whose homilies I've personally studied very much, says nothing about this story.

That's not the point.  The prodigal son is not true, but it professes truth.  Really James, really?

Who said that the story of the woman adulteress professes truth? It seems fishy all the way if you ask me. Not only is it not really a part of the original narrative, but we don't even know when it was added and who added it. Whoever added it may not have been the Church but could have simply been some weirdo or anti-Semite trying to make a point. I don't see proof or evidence that the story is authentic or true and I don't see proof or evidence that the story professes truth and was truly added by the Church and not just some weirdo or translator.

NM, too many posts behind. It seems you don't think the Church is able to protect the Canon of Scripture then.

As I said, we have nothing, in that case. You trust the "scholars" more?
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2014, 06:21:56 PM »
So the point of the story is not about forgiveness, but about anti-Semitism...gotcha.
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2014, 06:23:01 PM »
(In other words, when you can provide me with liturgies to compare, one with a reading about the adulteress, and another commemorating SS. Lachmann and Tischendorf, then I'll at least agree to be confused.)
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2014, 06:34:29 PM »
Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?

Yes, IIRC, however, it has the "earlier manuscripts do not include this" disclaimer.

Fixed it for you.  There's no such disclaimer in Greek or Syriac, so unless you've recently become some sort of Protestant, the Bible of the Church accepts this passage as canonical Scripture.   

Next time, don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit to score cheap points in a discussion of something you know little about.
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2014, 06:35:29 PM »
NM, too many posts behind. It seems you don't think the Church is able to protect the Canon of Scripture then.

The Church has no Canon of Scriptures and still isn't.

Several of the Fathers had different opinions on what was Canon and what wasn't. Even to this day, there is some variance in different jurisdictions. The Ethiopians for example include the book of Enoch into their Canon whereas others don't.

The notion of a Canon isn't very Orthodox.

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2014, 06:36:13 PM »
Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?

Yes, IIRC, however, it has the "earlier manuscripts do not include this" disclaimer.

Fixed it for you.  There's no such disclaimer in Greek or Syriac, so unless you've recently become some sort of Protestant, the Bible of the Church accepts this passage as canonical Scripture.   

Next time, don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit to score cheap points in a discussion of something you know little about.

My Church uses the NKJV which includes the disclaimer.

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2014, 06:37:25 PM »
James, stop being obtuse, please.  Look at the forest of Anna's message.
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2014, 06:38:37 PM »
Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?

Yes, IIRC, however, it has the "earlier manuscripts do not include this" disclaimer.

Fixed it for you.  There's no such disclaimer in Greek or Syriac, so unless you've recently become some sort of Protestant, the Bible of the Church accepts this passage as canonical Scripture.   

Next time, don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit to score cheap points in a discussion of something you know little about.

My Church uses the NKJV which includes the disclaimer.

When I said "Church", I meant "Eastern Orthodox", not "JamesR's OCA parish in Sometown, CA".
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2014, 06:39:14 PM »
NM, too many posts behind. It seems you don't think the Church is able to protect the Canon of Scripture then.

The Church has no Canon of Scriptures and still isn't.

Several of the Fathers had different opinions on what was Canon and what wasn't. Even to this day, there is some variance in different jurisdictions. The Ethiopians for example include the book of Enoch into their Canon whereas others don't.

The notion of a Canon isn't very Orthodox.

Keep digging, you're halfway to China.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2014, 06:39:24 PM »
NM, too many posts behind. It seems you don't think the Church is able to protect the Canon of Scripture then.

The Church has no Canon of Scriptures and still isn't.

Several of the Fathers had different opinions on what was Canon and what wasn't. Even to this day, there is some variance in different jurisdictions. The Ethiopians for example include the book of Enoch into their Canon whereas others don't.

The notion of a Canon isn't very Orthodox.

Surely if it's appointed to be read, it's canonical in the Orthodox sense. What the Scriptures do not exclude is well-known; all they include may be a different subject.
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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2014, 06:39:54 PM »
James, stop being obtuse, please.  Look at the forest of Anna's message.

What?

I'm just pointing out that the story in question is absent from the Church for a very long time until I'm not so sure when. And even then, I see no proof or evidence to suggest that it professes truth or was really added by the Church. To be honest, I don't know where that story came from. So isn't it better to be skeptical of it than to accept it when our Church has been silent on it and logical reason tells us it's fishy?

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2014, 06:41:22 PM »


Maybe an image can get some attention.
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2014, 06:42:36 PM »
Is this story contained in the official text of the Bible in your Church?

Yes, IIRC, however, it has the "earlier manuscripts do not include this" disclaimer.

Fixed it for you.  There's no such disclaimer in Greek or Syriac, so unless you've recently become some sort of Protestant, the Bible of the Church accepts this passage as canonical Scripture.   

Next time, don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit to score cheap points in a discussion of something you know little about.

My Church uses the NKJV which includes the disclaimer.

When I said "Church", I meant "Eastern Orthodox", not "JamesR's OCA parish in Sometown, CA".

Oh.

Well in that case, I'm unsure. But I can tell you that historically this story was absent from the Church for a long time.

Here's a good question: are there any days of the year where that story is officially read, in either the Western or Byzantine rite? And if so, when/where did it become included? In my OCA parish, I do not recall ever hearing that story read in either the Gospel reading at Liturgy or in any of the other services.

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Re: Does infidelity need to be confessed to the innocent spouse?
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2014, 06:42:59 PM »
James, stop being obtuse, please.  Look at the forest of Anna's message.

What?

I'm just pointing out that the story in question is absent from the Church for a very long time until I'm not so sure when. And even then, I see no proof or evidence to suggest that it professes truth or was really added by the Church. To be honest, I don't know where that story came from. So isn't it better to be skeptical of it than to accept it when our Church has been silent on it and logical reason tells us it's fishy?

My ecclesiastical Gospel book from Greece says your logical reason is fishy.
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