Author Topic: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )  (Read 1468 times)

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Raylight

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Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« on: July 11, 2014, 09:31:42 AM »
English is not my native language ( nor Latin ) so my apologies for any misspellings.

While I'm reading the book about the early Church and early Christians history, I come across something called " Codex Theodosianis ", and I'm sure most of you know what that is, it is what supposed to be "law" where Christianity somehow became the religion of the empire...etc. In the quote translated in my native language book, which I have to mention the writer is not Catholic.

The quote is written in my native language, so I'm going to try to translate to English her so you may able to understand it.

" We the emperors want all our parishes to cling to the religion that has been taught to the Romans by St Peter, which the Tradition kept it for us faithfully, and which the Pontiff Damasus Bishop of Rome confess. And Peter Bishop of Alexandria. And the man of Apostolic holiness..."

From ( Codex Theodosianis XXI: 1,2. )

I tried to find the full text of the codex in English but it seems to be very complicated and couldn't really find the exact quote above, and I tried to search for it in Latin but I know nothing about Latin, so it was extra hard for me to find the quote, so I make sure that it says what it says above.

Is there any good translation of the codex that I can find ?

Also, what do you think of the Codex calling Bishop of Rome " Pontiff " which in Latin I think it means " Pontifex ". means  " The High Priest ".

 

Raylight

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 04:26:03 PM »
Up  :)

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 08:57:00 PM »
I found the original of the Codex Theodosianus at

http://ancientrome.ru/ius/library/codex/theod/liber16.htm#1

Here is the passage (16.1.2) in Latin

Quote
Cunctos populos, quos clementiae nostrae regit temperamentum, in tali volumus religione versari, quam divinum petrum apostolum tradidisse Romanis religio usque ad nunc ab ipso insinuata declarat quamque pontificem Damasum sequi claret et Petrum Alexandriae episcopum virum apostolicae sanctitatis, hoc est, ut secundum apostolicam disciplinam evangelicamque doctrinam patris et filii et spiritus sancti unam deitatem sub parili maiestate et sub pia trinitate credamus. (380 febr. 27).

Which I interpret as
Quote
We will that all peoples whom the balm of our clemency rules to be turned toward such religion as that which the godly apostle Peter handed to the Romans (as the religion that has been taught among us from his time declares) and which (it makes evident) the pontiff Damasus followed, as well as Peter bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness: That is, that according to the apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine we should believe that there is one deity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, under equal majesty and in blessed Trinity.

Or if you don't care for my translation, you can try the one here:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/codex-theod1.asp

where the passage is interpreted as follows:

Quote
We desire that all the people under the rule of our clemency should live by that religion which divine Peter the apostle is said to have given to the Romans, and which it is evident that Pope Damasus and Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, followed; that is that we should believe in the one deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with equal majesty and in the Holy Trinity according to the apostolic teaching and the authority of the gospel.

The pontifices were one of the priestly societies of pagan Rome.  They had a number of functions, including regulation of the Roman calendar.  It was using his authority as Pontifex maximus that Julius Caesar reformed the Roman calendar.  As the Roman empire became Christian, pontifex came to be a word for a bishop, and the old title of Pontifex maximus was assumed by Rome's bishops.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 09:32:17 PM »
The Emperors, since Augustus, had assumed the monopoly of the title Pontifex Maximus. The Emperor Gratian, ascending in 375 (a few years before this edict) amidst the height of the Arians, refused to take any of the pagan titles of the Emperors, and gave this one to the bishop of Rome, his local bishop.
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Raylight

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2014, 10:31:21 PM »
Now I get it, hopefully:D

One more question, could what was written above in the statement be used as an evidence for the Bishop of Rome supremacy ? Because when I read it in my native language, it was translated as the "High Priest", which does sound to give the Bishop of Rome some superiority.


Raylight

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2014, 10:32:43 PM »
I found the original of the Codex Theodosianus at

http://ancientrome.ru/ius/library/codex/theod/liber16.htm#1

Here is the passage (16.1.2) in Latin

Quote
Cunctos populos, quos clementiae nostrae regit temperamentum, in tali volumus religione versari, quam divinum petrum apostolum tradidisse Romanis religio usque ad nunc ab ipso insinuata declarat quamque pontificem Damasum sequi claret et Petrum Alexandriae episcopum virum apostolicae sanctitatis, hoc est, ut secundum apostolicam disciplinam evangelicamque doctrinam patris et filii et spiritus sancti unam deitatem sub parili maiestate et sub pia trinitate credamus. (380 febr. 27).

Which I interpret as
Quote
We will that all peoples whom the balm of our clemency rules to be turned toward such religion as that which the godly apostle Peter handed to the Romans (as the religion that has been taught among us from his time declares) and which (it makes evident) the pontiff Damasus followed, as well as Peter bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness: That is, that according to the apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine we should believe that there is one deity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, under equal majesty and in blessed Trinity.

Or if you don't care for my translation, you can try the one here:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/codex-theod1.asp

where the passage is interpreted as follows:

Quote
We desire that all the people under the rule of our clemency should live by that religion which divine Peter the apostle is said to have given to the Romans, and which it is evident that Pope Damasus and Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, followed; that is that we should believe in the one deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with equal majesty and in the Holy Trinity according to the apostolic teaching and the authority of the gospel.

The pontifices were one of the priestly societies of pagan Rome.  They had a number of functions, including regulation of the Roman calendar.  It was using his authority as Pontifex maximus that Julius Caesar reformed the Roman calendar.  As the Roman empire became Christian, pontifex came to be a word for a bishop, and the old title of Pontifex maximus was assumed by Rome's bishops.


Thank you so much for your help and finding the original text with a source for translation :)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 10:56:41 PM »
Now I get it, hopefully:D

One more question, could what was written above in the statement be used as an evidence for the Bishop of Rome supremacy ? Because when I read it in my native language, it was translated as the "High Priest", which does sound to give the Bishop of Rome some superiority.


Btw, there is a whole series of edicts which are similar, listing bishops one has to be communion with.  This one alone does not comport in Pastor Aeternus, because it requires communion with Pope (the title used, then and now, for the Archbishop of Alexandria) Peter, here specified as "a man of Apostolic holiness"-no such connection being made to the Archbishop of Rome (not known as Pope for a few more centuries)-in addition to the Archbishop/Pontifex Maximus Damasus.

Btw, the same pontiff is the one who made Rome into the Latin Church, sweeping the last usage of Greek there (Latin was not even introduced until 190).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Wandile

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2014, 04:48:48 PM »
Now I get it, hopefully.  :D

One more question, could what was written above in the statement be used as an evidence for the Bishop of Rome supremacy ? Because when I read it in my native language, it was translated as the "High Priest", which does sound to give the Bishop of Rome some superiority.



It would be weak evidence in my opinion
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 04:50:18 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Sam G

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Re: Codex Theodosianis and the Pope ( Pontifex )
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2014, 11:17:22 PM »
Now I get it, hopefully:D

One more question, could what was written above in the statement be used as an evidence for the Bishop of Rome supremacy ? Because when I read it in my native language, it was translated as the "High Priest", which does sound to give the Bishop of Rome some superiority.


I don't think so.  All the text you presented states is that the See of Rome received it's faith from St. Peter, and that the current Bishop of that See still holds to the same faith.
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Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl