OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 10:40:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: threats of hell  (Read 1839 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
HeYunyi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« on: April 24, 2005, 04:14:11 AM »

Hi people,

I've been researching Orthodoxy, seriously considering converting, but I found something that really disturbs me here: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx It's a long article, but the part that disturbs me is that it tells the story of two teenage boys, who the author claims are real people, who committed masturbation and then later died, and were threatened with hell because they masturbated, but luckily they came back to life and was able to confess their sin in time.

So basically, the message to me is that if you masturbate then you are going to burn in hell. And the issue really isn't masturbation, its this tactic of trying to get people to do something or not to do something by threatening them with hell. Is that what Orthodoxy is about??? I mean, if I do end up converting and I have kids one day that I raise in the Church, are they going to always be living in fear of going to hell because they touched themselves or committed some other sin? It's just that I lived that way as a young child, and there is no way I'd ever want to put my children through that.

So if someone could put this in perspective for me, I would very much appreciate it!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 04:17:06 AM by HeYunyi » Logged

NULL
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,816



« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2005, 05:07:11 AM »

I believe the real message is that unrepented sin can cause us to miss the mark and may fail to allow us to achieve Theosis. Whether that sin is one of masterbation, lying, or other transgressions.  The moral was that the boys were brought back to life and have an ability to repent prior to death, a second chance as it were.

In Christ,
Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
lpap
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228

I stopped participating in this forum.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2005, 06:31:06 AM »

Hi people,

I've been researching Orthodoxy, seriously considering converting, but I found something that really disturbs me here: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx It's a long article, but the part that disturbs me is that it tells the story of two teenage boys, who the author claims are real people, who committed masturbation and then later died, and were threatened with hell because they masturbated, but luckily they came back to life and was able to confess their sin in time.

So basically, the message to me is that if you masturbate then you are going to burn in hell. And the issue really isn't masturbation, its this tactic of trying to get people to do something or not to do something by threatening them with hell. Is that what Orthodoxy is about??? I mean, if I do end up converting and I have kids one day that I raise in the Church, are they going to always be living in fear of going to hell because they touched themselves or committed some other sin? It's just that I lived that way as a young child, and there is no way I'd ever want to put my children through t

So if someone could put this in perspective for me, I would very much appreciate it!

Dear HeYunyi,

You talked the truth while not being yet an Orthodox. You may be more Orthodox in that respect than many "self proclaimed Teachers of faith".

The site http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ is NOT an absolute authority on Orthodox Christianity. It has many marginal viewpoints on many issues.

You may consult the following site regarding real orthodox viewpoint of hell and paradise: PARADISE AND HELL in which
 you will find that fear has nothing to do with Orthodox Christian faith (as you already are feeling deep in your heart).

I am very impressed that you foresee the real healthy relation with God, while not yet being baptized as an Orthodox.

My friend, keep testing the "truth" that many are ready to serve to us as "Devine". If the truth is giving joy and freedom to your heart then It is an Orthodox truth, if it provides fear and despair then it is devil's truth. Your heart will tell the difference.

Let me also tell you what may be the Orthodox viewpoint on masturbation issue. Children are masturbated from being angry and furies and lonely deep inside their hearts. Can you imagine a young boy that has a loving relationship with a girl to be with her and feel the need to masturbate? A young boy having a loving relationship with a young girl is living in a sanctified state. The absent of personal relationship drives young children to use their imagination to provide virtual relationships. These void non loving non-existed relationships are substitutes of authentic relations with real persons that young person’s souls are looking for. But living in a state of parental denial and social isolation the young one becomes so lonely that he confronts the lonesomeness in a personal way that drives him to fantasize about not-loneliness. If we could just remember ourselves as young boys we would find out that the time we engaged ourselves in a loving relationship with a girl and the moment we experienced “being” with her, the need to masturbate seized, the furiousness went away.

So the “big” picture in Orthodox Church is not about making sins or living a faithful live according to our fear, but about being in relation with others or being exclusively in relation to ourselves (living a non-existed way of life). The "big" picture in Orthodoxy is not what you do, but who you are. Being yourself as a person that relates with loving, honest, pesonal relations with real other persons is being a member of Church.

Church is provided testimony that our life can be lived in honest, personal, loving relationships with everyone else as a reality that can be shared by everyone through the faith. The faith that “others” are good and honest and they are not asking for anything else but just to live our lives - without eliminate us as persons in the process - draws fear away because “others” are no longer threatening us, they respect us inasmuch we must be as persons in order for them to live our lives.

You may already know all this in your heart, because the law of God is written in human hearts as Apostle Paul said.

Welcome to Orthodoxy, my friend.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 06:41:32 AM by lpap » Logged

Life is to live the life of others.
HeYunyi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2005, 01:34:52 PM »

Lpap- thank you for your explanation, the website, and your kind words to me!  I certainly feel a lot better now!
Logged

NULL
icxn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 251


« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2005, 02:06:39 PM »

You might want to read the following from the same site also; it will put the first article that you've read in context:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/intro.aspx

St. Synkletike's words are very wise in this respect too:

The blessed Synkletike said: We should laud remiss and indolent souls who are easily exhausted in the struggle for good, as well as those souls who are easily discouraged and fall to despair. Indeed if such souls should display even the smallest good deed, we must praise it and marvel at it, giving them encouragement in their struggle for the good. Contrarily, the most serious and greatest of their faults we must characterize, in front of them, as the least and unworthy of note. For the Devil, who wishes to destroy all things, or rather to succeed at our spiritual destruction, resorts to the following ruse. On the one hand, with accomplished and ascetic monks, he tries to cover their sins and to make them forget them, so as to create pride in these men. On the other hand, he constantly exposes the sins of neophytes whose souls have not yet been strengthened in the ascetic life, before them and exaggerates these sins, so as to drive such neophytes to despair, until they abandon their ascetic efforts.

For this reason, then, these still irresolute souls we must care for with tenderness and remind them continually of the boundless compassion and kindness of God. Among other things, we must emphasize that our Lord is merciful and long-enduring and that he annuls his righteous judgments against wrong-doers, as long as they surely repent.

To render this teaching of ours convincing, we will bring forth examples from Holy Scripture, which will reveal to the souls of our listeners the endless compassion of the Lord towards those who have sinned and repented. For example, let us recall that Raab was a prostitute, but was saved through her faith; St. Paul was a persecutor, but through repentance became a chosen vessel; and the thief who was crucified together with Christ on Golgotha, who had stolen and murdered, first opened the door of Paradise with one word of repentance: "Remember me, Lord, when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom." Moreover, let us cite the instance of St. Matthew, who was appointed to the Apostolic ranks by the Lord and who, even though a former tax collector, relates the parable of the tax collector as well as that of the Prodigal Son. So in general, let us bring to mind all of the stories in this regard which emphasize the worth of repentance and which extol the compassion of God towards the repentant man.

On the other hand, we must correct those souls who are ruled by pride by providing them with greater examples, just as we give the weaker souls encouragement, so as not to be ruled by despair. Let us take an example from the work of the best gardeners, who, when they see that a plant is of small stature and sickly, water it profusely and care for it greatly, so that it will grow and be strong; while, when they see in a plant the premature development of sprouts, they immediately trim the useless sprouts, so that the plant does not quickly wither. Likewise, physicians give rich nourishment to some patients, prescribing that they walk, while to others they give a strict diet and require them to remain at rest.

* * *

icxn
Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2005, 07:14:20 PM »

Quote
The site http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ is NOT an absolute authority on Orthodox Christianity. It has many marginal viewpoints on many issues.
Actually orthodoxinfo.com IS the best internet resource on Orthodox Christianity. The story mentioned is true and in fact such stories are common throughout Orthodox History. If you ever happen to read Book IV of the Dialogues by St.Gregory the Dialogist you will notice one of the stories mentions a young boy who grew up cursing constantly, was very naughty and went to hades.

Quote
if it provides fear and despair then it is devil's truth
This is not necessarily true. Many people find themselves in great despair when they come to Orthodoxy after having lived a sinful and indulgent life. It takes very long to get over that despair over past deeds and often the despair seizes you when you are very worried about the future and vulnerable. If you are currently living an indulgent life and get a flash of the truth then you will certainly feel fear and become very worried but that is what God does to bring people out of the filth of this world.

Simply put: Fear of God is the beginning of all Wisdom. Now you can try and turn that into some half statement in which God will never punish us for our evil or you can face the truth that our Lord did indeed flood the entire world at one time, and did indeed consume two of Aaron's sons in fire when they entered the Holy of Holies unworthily. God is Love, He is the Righteous Judge whose justice is True. If you are not concerned about your sins and will not admit that you are the worst of all sinners than you are condemning yourself.
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
HeYunyi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2005, 08:09:41 PM »


Actually orthodoxinfo.com IS the best internet resource on Orthodox Christianity.

I'm curious what authority you say this on?  Your info says that you are a catechumen, but you are able to tell someone who is actually a baptised Orthodox that they are wrong about what is a good source of info?  How does that work?

I hope my question doesn't come off as sounding rude...I really don't mean it that way! Maybe you were told it was the best source by a priest or someone?  I just want to know if your statement is only your opinion or if it is based on more than that.
Logged

NULL
CyberSponge
A cybernetic sponge
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 58

OC.net


« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2005, 08:37:32 PM »


Actually orthodoxinfo.com IS the best internet resource on Orthodox Christianity.

not really. It's obsessed with things we shouldn't be obsessed with. It also eagerly teaches beliefs that are not commonly believed and are of questionable origin (e.g. visions).

The ones who made the site seem misguided. But because they do have some useful comments, some people assume that the whole site is legit. If you're looking for a general catechism which has info on all major important aspects of the faith, I'd recommend starting with the clear and very readable "Rainbow Series" by Fr. Thomas Hopko (found here online for free: http://oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2). If you read through that entire series, it will help you get a strong grounding in Orthodox doctrine.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 08:40:57 PM by CyberSponge » Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2005, 10:09:14 PM »

Actually orthodoxinfo.com IS the best internet resource on Orthodox Christianity.

I would not even consider it a moderately good resource, but one that does far more harm than good. If one wants a fair mainstream overview of Orthodox Faith, History, Morals, and Practice the 'Our Faith' section of the GOA's website http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/ would be a far better resource.

This is not necessarily true. Many people find themselves in great despair when they come to Orthodoxy after having lived a sinful and indulgent life. It takes very long to get over that despair over past deeds and often the despair seizes you when you are very worried about the future and vulnerable. If you are currently living an indulgent life and get a flash of the truth then you will certainly feel fear and become very worried but that is what God does to bring people out of the filth of this world.

I would say that this gernally comes from a lack of understanding of Orthodoxy, and the elevating of some tendencies in certain fathers over the dogmas of the Church (which, incidentally, is also, generally speaking, the source of heresy).

Simply put: Fear of God is the beginning of all Wisdom. Now you can try and turn that into some half statement in which God will never punish us for our evil or you can face the truth that our Lord did indeed flood the entire world at one time, and did indeed consume two of Aaron's sons in fire when they entered the Holy of Holies unworthily. God is Love, He is the Righteous Judge whose justice is True. If you are not concerned about your sins and will not admit that you are the worst of all sinners than you are condemning yourself.

First of all, you can not equate earthly punishment with eternal punishment, secondly you cannot argue that God acts contrary to His Nature, His Nature is Mercy, Love, and Compassion. Divine Justice cannever be opposed to Divine Mercy. Thus I submit that as it is in His Nature, God will always show Mercy, always show Love, always show Compassion, and always give forgiveness...Condemnation is contrary to the Love of God, this is not to say that I follow Origen in his universalism (though I accept the premise that all things must return to the One from which the eminate, or rather, they never left the One), there is a hell, but it is our own Creating, not of God's...it is our continued rejection of the Love, Mercy, Compassion, and Forgiveness of God, it is a voluntary state, a voluntary separation from God.

In conclusion, as St. Isaac the Syrian wrote, 'Never say that God is just. If he were just you would be in hell. Rely only on His injustice which is mercy, love and forgiveness.'
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 10:12:05 PM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2005, 10:38:26 AM »

For what it's worth, masturbation/self-abuse is a sin, and unrepented sin is not a good thing, obviously.  People do lose their souls, for committing sins, so what you read at orthodoxinfo.com is not really that odd.  While the "higher motive" for doing things is love of God, for those who have not purified themselves (which is most of us; and sadly, myself included) there can often be more servile motives for doing things - either the hope of some reward, or the fear of some punishment.  Those actually are not invalid motives; since there is a Paradise, there is a Hades, and there is the Final Judgement; all dreadful things for those who are attached to sin.  They're just not the best ones, and hopefully are something we'll grow beyond, since such is a servile/mercenary approach, and itself betrays a sickness of the heart.

I think it's good that there is a big emphasis now upon the Church Fathers, and in particular St.Gregory Palamas and his doctrinal formulation against the falsehood of Latin heterodoxy.  However, I do have some concerns that there are a lot of people running around now using "catch phrases of the Fathers", because they're exotic, and pooh-poohing some harder sayings of the Gospel under the guise of being "patristic".  For example, the way some people talk, you'd think God does not punish people.  Well, He does.  Now His motives are not fallen ones ("passions", which are the powers of the soul perverted by original sin), but He does have a will, so He is making some choices in His governance of all things, including me and you.  And if we're not listening, that can include slapping us on the bottom, so to speak.  And if we're really thick headed, hard.  And for those who just will never listen, sadly there is a place for them in eternity which is quite unpleasant.

I'm not bringing all of this up because I get great joy in emphasizing the unpleasant things - rather I'm underlning it, because it gets too easily forgotten in some discussions now days.  The result is people have this really casual approach to our Lord, even if their lips may say otherwise.  But perhaps I'm just babbling, and only manifesting my own difficulties (actually, this is true, now that I reflect upon it.)  However, I don't think that means I'm incorrect either.  Being a child of these times, I suspect I'm not the only one who has been raised without a horror of sin, and a calloused conscience.

Logged
lpap
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228

I stopped participating in this forum.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2005, 11:52:05 AM »

Since the question of God's punishment is came up again, by good will, I suggest the article The River of Fire of orthodox Alexander Kalomiros.

Now I think all members of the forum that posted a reply are talking for the same issue: Love of God. It seems that one is talking about a God that "of course, He does punish people - certainly He punish the sinners" and another one says "of course, He does not punish people at all", so they may be talking about two different Gods.

In an excerpt from the above essay we can read: " Do not deceive yourself,? says Saint Symeon the New Theologian, ?God is fire and when He came into the world, and became man, He sent fire on the earth, as He Himself says; this fire turns about searching to find material - that is a disposition and an intention that is good - to fall into and to kindle; and for those in whom this fire will ignite, it becomes a great flame, which reaches Heaven.... this flame at first purifies us from the pollution of passions and then it becomes in us food and drink and light and joy, and renders us light ourselves because we participate in His light ? (Discourse 78)."

So in this context everybody is talking about the Love of God, but for one person this Love is a fire that consumes his passions, for another is a fire of Light that lights his darkness and for another, this same Love is a personal meeting with God - to become His child by Grace.

The Fathers of the Church agree that there is only one path in salvation that has three steps : cleaning of passions, illumination, Theosis(becoming God’s child by Grace)

Christians and non-Christians, sinners and righteous, all are blessed by the uncreated Grace of God which illuminates the righteous but burns the sinners.

St. Gregory of Nyssa talks about the double effect of light on the Hebrews and the Egyptians, he says that: while the Sun of righteousness illuminated them in the same way with its rays, yet "the Hebrews delighted in its light, but the Egyptians were insensitive to its gift". The Egyptians too received the grace of God, but since they were insensitive, they perceived it as darkness.

The same thing happens with other men as well. The same grace, the same light, sends its rays to all men, but some wander in darkness because of evil deeds and the darkness of evil, and others shine, living in the light of virtue.

The Egyptians were “punished” because their choice worked in that way, when they themselves called forth God's punishment. "The Egyptians' free will caused all these things according to the above principle, and the impartial justice of God followed their free choices and brought upon them what they deserved".

It is true that every man during his whole life tastes all three stages. There is not a clear cut separation between them either in time nor in quality nor in quantity.

So we are talking about the Uncreated grace of God which we interpret by our point of view. This is not about “Who God is”, but about “who we are in respect to the personal relationship we have with Him”.

I personally do not find a person that says "God punish people" to be less Christian from another one that says "God does not punish people". The only fatal mistake that we can make is in believing that we know God as He really is. Either of them that have different views on whether God punishes or not, they must admit that they are in the first steps of the way to becoming God's children by Grace and coheirs of Christ. Then the truth is in each point of view.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 11:56:32 AM by lpap » Logged

Life is to live the life of others.
icxn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 251


« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2005, 01:40:39 PM »

26:25  Sometimes what serves as medicine for one is poison for another; and sometimes something given to one and the same person at a suitable time serves as a medicine, but at the wrong time it is a poison. (St. John Climacus)

Understand then that God's severe judgments are a suitable medicine to those heart-hardened souls who drink sin like water. The same medicine is a poison to those in despair.

The problem is that we take those writings out of context and use them to reason mathematical proofs for dogma... perhaps they should not be online altogether, not that they are not useful or Orthodox... but surgical instruments at the hands of patients can be very fatal.

icxn
Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2005, 03:09:05 PM »

Ipap,

Quote
Since the question of God's punishment is came up again, by good will, I suggest the article The River of Fire of orthodox Alexander Kalomiros.

I think it needs to be known there are a lot of Orthodox Christians who take exception to the use of Alexandre Kalamiros as an "authority" on the subject, and feel his views in fact are skewed towards a kind of "stavroclasm" (denial of the justice of God and the "legal" aspects of our redemption, which are not a Latin imposition, but rather have a place in Orthodox soteriology.)  Also, his history of ecclessiastical allegiances up to the time of his repose (including being involved in a schism amongst the Old Calendarists themselves over the use of Icons with symbolic portrayals of God the Father as an "old man" or "Ancient of Days") doesn't really set him up as an authority either - not that this is definitive, or that it prevented him from having good things to say, but it should at least raise the possibility in our minds that some of his views may have represented the periphery of what people would call "Orthodox."

Unfortunately, because what he says sounds so different and exotic, and because it certainly does have a lot of truth to it, River of Fire has an undeservedly (imho) high repute.

Though I'm not a fan of this person's allegiences either, the following author (Dr.Vladimir Moss) offers a very compelling (if only because it's well referenced) treatment of the subject of "God's justice", and serves as a needed corrective to views like those of Kalamiros, which are really the child of the opinions/speculations of Metropolitan Anthony (Khrapovitsky), views which were regarded by his contemporaries as having been heavily influenced by theological modernism...

The Dogma of Redemption - by Dr.Vladimir Moss (you'll need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view this file).

Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2005, 06:40:55 PM »

Briefly looking through, 'The River of Fire' it seems to make fairly good points (perhaps I'll have more time to read through it in detail later); though it seems to just scratch the surface, and lack real philosophical depth. On whether or not Kalomiros was personally influenced by theological modernism, I cannot speak; however, the premise of his paper is certainly not modernist in its origin. It seems to borrow heavily from the eschatology of St. Isaac the Syrian who can be said to have reconciled the schools of Alexandria (which tended towards neo-Platonic Universalism) and Antioch (which tended towards Jewish Legalism). This approach of St. Isaac the Syrian, while avoiding Universalism, allows for the Axlexandrian solutions to the problems of ontology and the existance of evil, the immutability of the Nature of God (before and after the Eschaton), and the pre-eminence of Love in the Energies of God and the notion of hell, as well as the salvation of infants who die before baptism and the fate of infidels who live in ignorance (these latter two can only be answered by either insisting on their condemnation (as the Latins did) or by providing a system in which salvation is still possible after death (as St. Clement of Alexandria did)).

But in any case, whether or not one accepts the Soteriology and Eschatology of the Alexandrian School (and St. Gregory of Nyssa) as manifested through St. Isaac the Syrian or not, it is hardly a modern theological development; in fact, Universalism was the tendency of the Early Church, the most Juridical forms of Soteriology (such as that of Anselm) were not really seen until the era of the Scholastics in the West.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
jayson
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 19


« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 04:56:55 PM »

Forgive me, this is just my personal understanding of God's Justice. When I asked for spiritual guidance on the topic of Hell (was going through an adolescent stage - needed some reassurance about eikonomia), I was shown the original icon of Heaven and Hell. God is enthroned at the top of the Icon, surrounded by the angels. A river of fire (God's love) descends from his heel down through the heavens and into hell. The righteous bask in the radiance of the light, the lost are burned by it as fire. (reference the Communion prayers of the Church - "Behold, I approach the Divine Communion. O Creator, let me not be burnt by communicating, For thou art Fire, consuming the unworthy.")

I think the point is this - we choose to sin. Sin separates us from God; sin separates us from love. It makes us incapable of love - but not only incapable of giving love, but also incapable of receiving it. And God's love, which consumes the Cosmos, is too much for the human to bear. In His Mercy, he allows us to experience Him slowly, one small sip at a time. But, IF we choose not to accept it, there is nothing God can do. His hands are tied - He gave us free-will, and he will not renege on his greatest gift to mankind. (For, if we did not have the free-will to choose to love God, we would not be sons. If we were forced to love God, we would be slaves. God seeks for us to be free).

If, at the end of our lives, through lack of repentance, we find ourselves still unwilling and incapable of receiving God's love; then all the fires and torments of hell would pale in comparison to the true torment that would be Heaven. For we would receive God's love, and not only be unable to return, but would be unable to receive it. This is true Pain.

So God, in His Mercy, creates a place where He is not present. The Awesome and Fearful Compassion that is shown by this. There is nowhere that God is not present, and yet, He is not present in Hell. He spares the unrepentant true torment by separating them from His Love. God may judge us, but we condemn ourselves. The torment of Hell is separation from the Creator, separation from His Love. The 'torments' that we normally ascribe to hell come not from the Father - they come from the Devil and his angels. They will torment us (the unrepentant), and we will torment ourselves, because we will be unable to Love. The everlasting fire. May God grant us repentance before the end, for we do not understand our peril.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.092 seconds with 41 queries.