Author Topic: Women  (Read 26013 times)

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Offline Punch

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Re: Women
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2014, 01:49:31 PM »
Why are you nit-picking this when the picture drives validity of the point?

The picture proves nothing other than a woman can be trained to drive a rivit.  I can use a shoe to drive a nail.  That does not mean that a shoe is the same thing as a hammer (or any more or less important).
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2014, 02:05:29 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

Now peeling potatoes can be unpleasant, especially for one's fingers. But then again, I'm a bit clumsy. But there's nothing inhumane about peeling potatoes.

It's hardly a surprise, given the ageless prevalence of your views, that there is feminism, and that so many feminists are so angry. You deserve their ire;

If feminists get upset because of what people like JamesR and vamrat have to say about women they're even more irrelevant to the real world than I thought.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:22:59 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2014, 02:08:35 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

What is your experience with intensive non-automated farming?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2014, 02:12:53 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

What is your experience with intensive non-automated farming?

Hanging upside down, scraping milk out of a big tanker and moving litres of it in buckets across a farm.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:14:36 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2014, 02:17:35 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

What is your experience with intensive non-automated farming?

Hanging upside down, scraping milk out of a big tanker and moving litres of it in buckets across a farm.

Come back after you've dug up a few acres of field by hand (as it was done in Sayers' time), rather than sitting on a tractor (as it is done now), and we'll talk.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Alpo

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Re: Women
« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2014, 02:21:41 PM »
Quote from: Cyrillic
It's hardly a surprise, given the ageless prevalence of your views, that there is feminism, and that so many feminists are so angry. You deserve their ire;

If feminists get upset because of what people like JamesR and vamrat say they're even more irrelevant to the real world than I thought.

That sounds pretty much like Jesus and Christianity in general. More irrelevant to the real World than I thought. People basically couldn't care less.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:22:00 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2014, 02:22:06 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

What is your experience with intensive non-automated farming?

Hanging upside down, scraping milk out of a big tanker and moving litres of it in buckets across a farm.

Come back after you've dug up a few acres of field by hand (as it was done in Sayers' time), rather than sitting on a tractor (as it is done now), and we'll talk.

Even then, men had to do the same work. Often men were worse off than the women and had to do even harder work, which includes being drafted in the army and serving as cannon fodder in wars about a few patches of land. Only a very, very small portion of the men enjoyed positions of power or jobs that were even remotely enjoyable. It isn't like life was pleasant only for the men, who conspired to keep women down.

Besides, there have been queens, empresses, duchesses and countesses ruling nations full of poor men.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:24:26 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2014, 02:27:56 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

What is your experience with intensive non-automated farming?

Hanging upside down, scraping milk out of a big tanker and moving litres of it in buckets across a farm.

Come back after you've dug up a few acres of field by hand (as it was done in Sayers' time), rather than sitting on a tractor (as it is done now), and we'll talk.

Even then, men had to do the same work. Often men were worse off than the women and had to do even harder work, which includes being drafted in the army and serving as cannon fodder. Only a very, very small portion of the men enjoyed positions of power or jobs that were enjoyable. It isn't like life was pleasant only for the men, who conspired to keep women down.

Besides, there have been queens and empresses ruling nations full of poor men.

And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

As for war, many, many women would rather go into the fight and risk being killed swiftly, rather than deal with starvation and rape behind the lines.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2014, 02:30:10 PM »
And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

So, what about Heloise, the famous pupil of Abelard, or Arete, the daughter of Aristippus, or all those other women who did enjoy an education?

As for war, many, many women would rather go into the fight and risk being killed swiftly, rather than deal with starvation and rape behind the lines.

Rape as a weapon of war was rather uncommon in those days.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:31:12 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2014, 02:34:00 PM »
And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

So, what about Heloise, the famous pupil of Abelard, or Arete, the daughter of Aristippus, or all those other women who did enjoy an education?

We can never know how many women who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped because their menfolk objected. I know my mother was - she was the brains of the family, but they could afford to send only one child to high school, and picked her good-for-nothing brother instead.

As for war, many, many women would rather go into the fight and risk being killed swiftly, rather than deal with starvation and rape behind the lines.

Rape as a weapon of war was rather uncommon in those days.

'Those days' being...?
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2014, 02:37:13 PM »
And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

So, what about Heloise, the famous pupil of Abelard, or Arete, the daughter of Aristippus, or all those other women who did enjoy an education?

We can never know how many women who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped because their menfolk objected.

We can never know how many men who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped by their parents because they had to do hard labour instead. Life sucked for almost everyone, not only (or even especially) for women.

I know my mother was - she was the brains of the family, but they could afford to send only one child to high school, and picked her good-for-nothing brother instead.

Who can blame them for that? Especially since men were supposed to get the bread on the table.

'Those days' being...?

Pre-1800s in Europe.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:38:17 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Women
« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2014, 02:38:55 PM »
After much meditation and pondering on the topic of women, I have come to the conclusion that they should exist. Stay tuned for any further insights I might have on the topic.
God bless!

Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2014, 02:45:04 PM »
And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

So, what about Heloise, the famous pupil of Abelard, or Arete, the daughter of Aristippus, or all those other women who did enjoy an education?

We can never know how many women who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped because their menfolk objected.

We can never know how many men who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped by their parents because they had to do hard labour instead.

Next to none, if the family had the means. If they didn't, it was a moot point anyway.

I know my mother was - she was the brains of the family, but they could afford to send only one child to high school, and picked her good-for-nothing brother instead.

Who can blame them for that? Especially since men were supposed to get the bread on the table.

My other grandparents, when my father started to gad about rather than concentrate on school, pulled him out and put him to work. When he got to his senses and realised he needed to finish school, he had to do it through evening classes. That's the way to deal with layabouts, not let them sponge off already scant resources for years. (Especially as guess who ended up doing the bread on the table thing?)

'Those days' being...?

Pre-1800s in Europe.

A good chunk of Europe pre-1800s, even post-1800s, was part of the Ottoman Empire, which was fond of dealing with revolt (which is war) by slaughtering the men responsible and selling their women and children as slaves. Which is so much better, as fates go. ::)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:45:31 PM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2014, 02:52:24 PM »
And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

So, what about Heloise, the famous pupil of Abelard, or Arete, the daughter of Aristippus, or all those other women who did enjoy an education?

We can never know how many women who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped because their menfolk objected.

We can never know how many men who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped by their parents because they had to do hard labour instead.

Next to none, if the family had the means. If they didn't, it was a moot point anyway.

How many families had the means for a good education? Very few. The families that did have the means did often educate their daughters (see Heloise, for example).

A good chunk of Europe pre-1800s, even post-1800s, was part of the Ottoman Empire, which was fond of dealing with revolt (which is war) by slaughtering the men responsible and selling their women and children as slaves. Which is so much better, as fates go. ::)

The Ottomans were barbarians from Asia. Even then, they cut off the balls of men and had them look after the harem; or drafted them in the Janissary Corps, forcefully converted them to Islam and ordered them to pillage the village where their parents live and butcher everyone in it. That wasn't really nice either.

This "who was the biggest victim" match is silly.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:57:08 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Keble

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Re: Women
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2014, 03:15:57 PM »
"Are Women Human?": "There has never been any question by that the women of the poor should toil alongside their men.  No angry, and no compassionate, voice has been raised to say that women should not break their backs with harvest work, or soil their hands with blacking grates and peeling potatoes.  The objection is only to work that is pleasant, exciting or profitable—the work that any human being might think it worth while to do."

There's nothing unpleasant, boring or unprofitable about farm work. This Dorothy lady and her acolytes should get out of their cubicles - a.k.a. "the work that any human being might think it worthwhile to do" - and see a bit of real life. It might help her get over their anti-agrarian prejudice.

Now peeling potatoes can be unpleasant, especially for one's fingers. But then again, I'm a bit clumsy. But there's nothing inhumane about peeling potatoes.

Who are you ad hominem removedto say this? Maybe it doesn't bore you (who I suspect doesn't live on a farm and hasn't done it for forty years), but it has bored enough farmboys over the years to populate a lot of cities, and never mind their wives.   Sentence containing at least two ad hominem arguments removed.

And since you cannot be bothered , I gather, to do any reading on your own: Sayers was one of the very first women in England to gain a degree. Not because she couldn't do the work, or even because she hadn't done the work, but simply because of the arbitrary and surely from your perspective well-thought-out rule that women couldn't earn degrees.



You have been a member of the forum for many years, and you are surely aware that ad hominem arguments are not permitted.  Because you have employed at lease 3 such attacks in this post, your warning will last 30 days.

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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:05:51 PM by Pravoslavbob »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2014, 03:31:03 PM »
Who are you ad hominem removed to say this? Maybe it doesn't bore you (who I suspect doesn't live on a farm and hasn't done it for forty years), but it has bored enough farmboys over the years to populate a lot of cities, and never mind their wives. Personal attack removed.

What did I do wrong? Blaspheme this ridiculous stuck-up third-rate writer of cheap detectives that you seem to worship so much? I'd rather hear what real farmers have to say about their work, which they do love, than what an overrated upper-middle-class novelist from the Edwardian era has to say.

but simply because of the arbitrary and surely from your perspective well-thought-out rule that women couldn't earn degrees.

Thanks for making those false and ignorant assumptions, "all-knowing grand wizard of debunking". What I'm concerned women can earn all the degrees they want.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 05:04:19 PM by Pravoslavbob »

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Women
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2014, 03:54:10 PM »
It's interesting reading Sayers the feminist, since I generally associate her with Christian apologetics.

If I understand Cyrillic's objection correctly, the problem with her argument is the way Sayers lets her class-based bigotry color her arguments against sex-based bigotry. It's true enough that among the working class of her day, it was normal for both men and women to work. Since they were working class, of course, their work was defined as not "worth while to do", which already alerts us to Sayers' class prejudices. Among Sayers' own class, it was normal for only men to work, but then the kind of work her class of men did was not the same kind of work that working class men and women did.

What's interesting is the way working class men appear to be completely invisible to Sayers. If the kind of work lower class women did was demeaning, why is no similar cry raised on behalf of lower class men? Alternatively, if her real concern is how upper class women are condemned to lives of leisure and that no one expects them to lift a finger to earn their own keep, why bring up lower class women at all?

Basically it's hard to take this kind of feminism seriously since it appears to concern itself with relatively minor social problems. If I had a mind for conspiracy theory, I might say that feminism, anti-racism, LGBT activism and the rest are elitist ploys to distract the public from the real social problems, which are almost always to do with socio-economic class.

I get such vibes when reading about current elitist obsessions within feminism, like the lack of women in the upper echelons of business. Why exactly should anyone else care that female CEOs earn only six figures while their male counterparts earn seven figures? Surely what's more socially relevant is why they are all earning an increasingly disproportionate share of the national wealth?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:55:53 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2014, 03:59:35 PM »
If I understand Cyrillic's objection correctly, the problem with her argument is the way Sayers lets her class-based bigotry color her arguments against sex-based bigotry.

Partly. The more objectionable part is how she thinks farming only fit for slaves and idiots. Farming is a very honourable occupation.

It's true enough that among the working class of her day, it was normal for both men and women to work. Since they were working class, of course, their work was defined as not "worth while to do", which already alerts us to Sayers' class prejudices. Among Sayers' own class, it was normal for only men to work, but then the kind of work her class of men did was not the same kind of work that working class men and women did.

What's interesting is the way working class men appear to be completely invisible to Sayers. If the kind of work lower class women did was demeaning, why is no similar cry raised on behalf of lower class men? Alternatively, if her real concern is how upper class women are condemned to lives of leisure and that no one expects them to lift a finger to earn their own keep, why bring up lower class women at all?

Hear, hear.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:05:44 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Women
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2014, 04:08:55 PM »
I was up on my in-law's dairy farm this weekend. I helped a very small amount and required 3 naps.  I am far too lazy for such work.
God bless!

Offline Dan-Romania

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Re: Women
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2014, 04:15:24 PM »
as ying is equal to yang ..

and I agree; I think women should become priests also.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Women
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2014, 04:15:37 PM »
If I understand Cyrillic's objection correctly, the problem with her argument is the way Sayers lets her class-based bigotry color her arguments against sex-based bigotry.

Partly. The more objectionable part is how she thinks farming only fit for slaves and idiots. Farming is a very honourable occupation.

Well that might be true in some cases. I would tend to agree with the others that, for most people in agricultural societies, farm labor was a matter of economic necessity rather than choice, and peasants lived very hard lives that they readily escaped once the opportunity afforded itself.

That being said, it's actually striking that Sayers used farm labor as her archetype of lower class labor. I would have thought most working class people in England in her day were already employed in factories, not on the farm. Does anyone have relevant statistics on this?

Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2014, 04:32:32 PM »
And that's what Sayers is saying: that women doing back-breaking work in the fields has always been considered a-ok, but if they wanted an education or some less menial employment, they were suddenly 'the lesser vessel'.

So, what about Heloise, the famous pupil of Abelard, or Arete, the daughter of Aristippus, or all those other women who did enjoy an education?

We can never know how many women who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped because their menfolk objected.

We can never know how many men who had the intelligence to get an education were stopped by their parents because they had to do hard labour instead.

Next to none, if the family had the means. If they didn't, it was a moot point anyway.

How many families had the means for a good education? Very few. The families that did have the means did often educate their daughters (see Heloise, for example).

If they did that often, history would have recorded many more women's achievements before modern times. We can't really take our cue from a few cases of families combining both forward thinking and immense privilege - Heloise was no peasant girl. The fact is that, up to the 17th century at least (as an optimistic estimate), the only places for girls to acquire some literacy were convents, and if they wanted more than the rudiments, they generally had to stay there, because educated women were considered unmarriageable.

A good chunk of Europe pre-1800s, even post-1800s, was part of the Ottoman Empire, which was fond of dealing with revolt (which is war) by slaughtering the men responsible and selling their women and children as slaves. Which is so much better, as fates go. ::)

The Ottomans were barbarians from Asia. Even then, they cut off the balls of men and had them look after the harem; or drafted them in the Janissary Corps, forcefully converted them to Islam and ordered them to pillage the village where their parents live and butcher everyone in it. That wasn't really nice either.

This "who was the biggest victim" match is silly.

The Romans were civilised (for certain values of the word) Europeans, and they were as much into slavery, if they could be bothered not to just crucify everyone.

The Janissary corps recruited boys, young enough to forget their previous life and their parents, and considered it a big advancement in life. I suppose, not knowing any better, it was.

There's no 'match'; we all know that those who are left behind unable to defend themselves are always the biggest victims, no matter the time, location, or clashing sides.
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Women
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2014, 04:33:41 PM »
What a thread for encompassing the range from sublimity to viciousness. The contrast of ups and downs shocks.

And, Branthony, your marriage of three weeks has left you with much to learn. Lord, have mercy.
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Women
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2014, 04:42:42 PM »
That being said, it's actually striking that Sayers used farm labor as her archetype of lower class labor. I would have thought most working class people in England in her day were already employed in factories, not on the farm. Does anyone have relevant statistics on this?

The quoted section is part of an address delivered in 1938. By that time, urban workers had already got to the 8-hour work day, and children under 12 didn't work at all. Agricultural work didn't have such luxuries. Farming was not yet mechanised, and with rural population dwindling, there was just more workload falling to each one's share.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2014, 04:47:48 PM »
The Romans were civilised (for certain values of the word) Europeans, and they were as much into slavery, if they could be bothered not to just crucify everyone.

Slaves weren't exclusively women. Female slaves, unlike their male counterparts, were spared the mines and the galleys, which were the worst forms of slavery.

There's no 'match'; we all know that those who are left behind unable to defend themselves are always the biggest victims, no matter the time, location, or clashing sides.

You underestimate the suffering of the average man back in the days and exaggerate those of the women.


Well that might be true in some cases. I would tend to agree with the others that, for most people in agricultural societies, farm labor was a matter of economic necessity rather than choice, and peasants lived very hard lives that they readily escaped once the opportunity afforded itself.

That being said, it's actually striking that Sayers used farm labor as her archetype of lower class labor. I would have thought most working class people in England in her day were already employed in factories, not on the farm. Does anyone have relevant statistics on this?

For the Roman proles, moving to the city worsened their situation immensely. Same thing for many workers during the industrial revolution or even those Chinese kids moving to the city to work in some sweatshop. Owning land meant that you had some freedom and independence.

To get somewhat back on topic, Mary Wollstonecraft, another literate woman from pre-modern times, agreed with me on this one.

Heloise was no peasant girl.

Peasant boys didn't get a proper education either.

The fact is that, up to the 17th century at least (as an optimistic estimate), the only places for girls to acquire some literacy were convents

Apparently not in the case of Heloise and those countless others of whom we don't know the names.

and if they wanted more than the rudiments, they generally had to stay there, because educated women were considered unmarriageable.

Nah, richer men liked women who knew a thing or two. They didn't like them too smart, but still...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:00:06 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Women
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2014, 04:49:39 PM »
What a thread for encompassing the range from sublimity to viciousness. The contrast of ups and downs shocks.

And, Branthony, your marriage of three weeks has left you with much to learn. Lord, have mercy.

+1 to both.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Women
« Reply #116 on: July 07, 2014, 04:59:30 PM »
I guess the question is, if moving to the cities made their lives worse, why did Roman farmers do it?

Offline Keble

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Re: Women
« Reply #117 on: July 07, 2014, 05:02:31 PM »
Who are you, you pompous ass, to say this? Maybe it doesn't bore you (who I suspect doesn't live on a farm and hasn't done it for forty years), but it has bored enough farmboys over the years to populate a lot of cities, and never mind their wives. Your bone-headed reading demonstrates you to be either too callow or too thick to get her drift.

What did I do wrong? Blaspheme this ridiculous stuck-up third-rate writer of cheap detectives that you seem to worship so much? I'd rather hear what real farmers have to say about their work, which they do love, than what an overrated upper-middle-class novelist from the Edwardian era has to say.

Dorothy Sayers isn't on trial; you are. She is an Oxford graduate whose theological work is still widely read; you are a teenage boy with delusions of grandeur. It's obvious that you don't understand the passage, and it appears you are only capable of picking at it in hopes of finding another flimsy support for your shaky intellectual edifice--and I'm being charitable in calling it "intellectual".

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Re: Women
« Reply #118 on: July 07, 2014, 05:05:08 PM »
The Romans were civilised (for certain values of the word) Europeans, and they were as much into slavery, if they could be bothered not to just crucify everyone.

Slaves weren't exclusively women. Female slaves, unlike their male counterparts, were spared the mines and the galleys, which were the worst forms of slavery.

I happen to believe prostitution is the worst form of slavery, but we're not going to see this from the same angle, no matter what.

There's no 'match'; we all know that those who are left behind unable to defend themselves are always the biggest victims, no matter the time, location, or clashing sides.

You underestimate the suffering of the average man back in the days and exaggerate those of the women.

I don't think so. Just pointing out that in times of war, there are worse fates than getting killed.

Heloise was no peasant girl.

Peasant boys didn't get a proper education either.

Noble boys generally did, though, and noble girls generally didn't.

The fact is that, up to the 17th century at least (as an optimistic estimate), the only places for girls to acquire some literacy were convents

Apparently not in the case of Heloise and those countless others of whom we don't know the names.

See above, the 'forward thinking and immense privilege' bit. And I put down money that Heloise's father, when he heard of the shenanigans, wished she had never learned to write her name.

and if they wanted more than the rudiments, they generally had to stay there, because educated women were considered unmarriageable.

Nah, richer men liked women who knew a thing or two. They didn't like them too smart, but still...

Smart enough not to be robbed blind by the servants, but not smart enough to have opinions. :P
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Women
« Reply #119 on: July 07, 2014, 05:08:51 PM »
That being said, it's actually striking that Sayers used farm labor as her archetype of lower class labor. I would have thought most working class people in England in her day were already employed in factories, not on the farm. Does anyone have relevant statistics on this?

The quoted section is part of an address delivered in 1938. By that time, urban workers had already got to the 8-hour work day, and children under 12 didn't work at all. Agricultural work didn't have such luxuries. Farming was not yet mechanised, and with rural population dwindling, there was just more workload falling to each one's share.

OK, so basically rural laborers were not representative at all of lower class life, so it's hard to see what kind of point Sayers was trying to make by pointing to a small minority of women as somehow representative of the female lot.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:12:33 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Women
« Reply #120 on: July 07, 2014, 05:14:06 PM »
Noble boys generally did, though, and noble girls generally didn't.

Hard to know. Even many noblemen were uneducated. What percentage of the population consisted of nobles? The amount of nobles was probably very small. So perhaps 99,99% of the men were illiterate while 99,999% of women were. This hardly justifies feminists blaming men in general for keeping women illiterate.

I don't think so. Just pointing out that in times of war, there are worse fates than getting killed.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But then again, most of the time there was no rape involved in warfare. Men were cannon fodder in all wars. I don't deny that women suffered and do suffer in war, but saying that women suffer most in wars just goes too far.

Smart enough not to be robbed blind by the servants, but not smart enough to have opinions. :P

 :laugh:

Dorothy Sayers isn't on trial; you are. She is an Oxford graduate whose theological work is still widely read; you are a teenage boy with delusions of grandeur. It's obvious that you don't understand the passage, and it appears you are only capable of picking at it in hopes of finding another flimsy support for your shaky intellectual edifice--and I'm being charitable in calling it "intellectual".

For a grand wizard of debunking you need a lot of ad hominems. Tell me, old man, have you ever debunked something, is it just your delusions of grandeur or is it senility kicking in? I find it hard to believe that you ever debunked something. If you ever did, you didn't demonstrate it on this forum.

I just disliked the author's unnecessary harshness towards farmers and her petulant upper-middle-class whining about oppression. Read in it whatever else you want, but that's all.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:28:52 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Women
« Reply #121 on: July 07, 2014, 08:09:52 PM »
Quote
  What are the "roles" of men in your opinion that women should not do as opposed to what cannot be done such as being a father or husband?
I believe traditional roles such as Punch posted. Women should be good supporters of their men and men should always provide for their women and the two should serve EACH OTHER in the way God naturally intended them to.

I'm not sure what "specifics" you're looking for . You want examples of what women shouldn't be invovlved in? Or men for that matter?

I don't know, I guess women shouldn't be invovled in combat, like in the infantry in the military, there's one example. I don't care what their saying these days, women are not built to endure the rigors of the training and exposure that men are capable of in certain situations, and I'm not just talking out my backside, I served in the infantry for four years in the USMC, the training and conditions are brutal at times, not meant for the female body or mindest and if their ever captured by the enemy, especially fanatical Moslems, you know what's going to happen to them and I don't care how tough or badass they believe or been tricked into thinking they are, they're going to be denziens of the rape rooms until Mohamed's had enough of them until he  dispatches of them at his convenience. This is the reality of the world and the reality why women/females have no business in playing a man's "role" in some places.


I could give you more examples, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Women
« Reply #122 on: July 07, 2014, 08:19:13 PM »
Oooh, rape. You're feeling big and bad now.

Charles, did you know men rape men, too?
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Women
« Reply #123 on: July 07, 2014, 08:20:46 PM »
Quote
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

Equal in dignity perhaps.

But functionally different.

In what ways besides the biology of reproduction, please?
Are you saying this is the only difference?

It's a question asking you what you think are "functional differences". 
I mean that men are not supposed to take on the functions of women....and vise-versa.

Men have their roles, women have theirs.

This is pretty cool Martel! I have never run into a Proto-Roman Catholic before. So if your wife died during childbirth, you would get yourself a she-wolf rather than use a baby bottle.
Gee, I don't know, what should I do?

Ah, get the she-wolf, what the hey.

Besides, didn't a she-wolf nurse the two founders of the Roman Empire? ;D

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Women
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2014, 08:21:16 PM »
Oooh, rape. You're feeling big and bad now.

Charles, did you know men rape men, too?
Stop fanatisizing son.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Women
« Reply #125 on: July 07, 2014, 08:26:47 PM »
Better point, then, is, Charles, that women are much more capable of physical and psychological endurance than men are. If you haven't learned this scientific fact from your own observation yet, then either you know few women or you are blind to those you know -- and in either case, you're sadly deprived.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Women
« Reply #126 on: July 07, 2014, 08:31:10 PM »
It's easy, you know roles like mother, wife , nurturer and all that.

Is this hard to understand? Or is it your intention to undermine what God and nature has pre-determined in the differences of the sexes?

Rosie sneers at you.


Seriously: does your wife work? Did your wife work? Have you ever married? It's depressingly familiar how many of the man-children here who have no track record of getting all the way to home plate in the marital game and have no progeny to their names are somehow full of wisdom on this.

Yes, my wife works now. But she didn't for many years because she believed in being at home and raising her children instead of playing PART TIME MOTHER or cathy career-chick somewhere so she could be more "fulfilled" then just being a dreary stay at home mom.

I've been in the marriage and raising children for many years, so spare me your preaching on the single and childless pontificating to those out there actually slugging it out day after day in the real world.

speaking of the real world, that "rosie the riveter" pic  is pure propaganda, I actually do physical work like that and I have yet to see a women keep up with me or any other normal man on the job. Why do you think the state "mandates" that employers HAVE to hire them, you don't think it's because of their production do you? Nope, more liberal drivel nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 08:32:15 PM by Charles Martel »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Women
« Reply #127 on: July 07, 2014, 08:33:02 PM »
Oooh, rape. You're feeling big and bad now.

Charles, did you know men rape men, too?

And men right here at home put women in rape rooms too.....no combat required first. 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Women
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2014, 08:36:02 PM »
It's easy, you know roles like mother, wife , nurturer and all that.

Is this hard to understand? Or is it your intention to undermine what God and nature has pre-determined in the differences of the sexes?

Rosie sneers at you.


Seriously: does your wife work? Did your wife work? Have you ever married? It's depressingly familiar how many of the man-children here who have no track record of getting all the way to home plate in the marital game and have no progeny to their names are somehow full of wisdom on this.

Yes, my wife works now. But she didn't for many years because she believed in being at home and raising her children instead of playing PART TIME MOTHER or cathy career-chick somewhere so she could be more "fulfilled" then just being a dreary stay at home mom.

I've been in the marriage and raising children for many years, so spare me your preaching on the single and childless pontificating to those out there actually slugging it out day after day in the real world.

speaking of the real world, that "rosie the riveter" pic  is pure propaganda, I actually do physical work like that and I have yet to see a women keep up with me or any other normal man on the job. Why do you think the state "mandates" that employers HAVE to hire them, you don't think it's because of their production do you? Nope, more liberal drivel nonsense.

Dear sir,

I call BS on your available knowledge.

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-c1-rosie-riveter-20130918-dto-htmlstory.html

Come back when you are 93 and still doing blue collar labor.  I might be inclined to listen to you then.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Women
« Reply #129 on: July 07, 2014, 08:41:21 PM »
Better point, then, is, Charles, that women are much more capable of physical and psychological endurance than men are. If you haven't learned this scientific fact from your own observation yet, then either you know few women or you are blind to those you know -- and in either case, you're sadly deprived.
Your insane  or full of it or delusional at best.

Either way you're wrong. Dead wrong.

I've been invovled with more than my share of women trying to do a man's job and ther overwhelmingly fail big time.

There's too much difference in the physical, mental, emotional stature between the sexes, regardless what your affrimative action masters lie to you about. And then there's that little once a month thing that comes along and totally sacks their abilities.

See, it's all in biology, maybe you ought to go back to science class  there yourself there porter. ;)
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Women
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2014, 08:44:51 PM »
I happen to believe prostitution is the worst form of slavery, but we're not going to see this from the same angle, no matter what.

Many men were also forced into prostitution and sexual slavery throughout history. Sander's aforementioned Ottoman Empire is one example.

The only difference is that since homosexuality has been more historically frowned upon, it was kept more of a secret.

Men also rape men and believe it or not, but women can rape men too via sodomizing them with an object.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Women
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2014, 08:45:55 PM »
I've been invovled with more than my share of women trying to do a man's job and ther overwhelmingly fail big time.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd have to agree with Charles. However, I'd also add that most men I've seen trying to do a woman's job have also failed miserably.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Women
« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2014, 08:49:36 PM »
Oooh, rape. You're feeling big and bad now.

Charles, did you know men rape men, too?

And men right here at home put women in rape rooms too.....no combat required first.  
That's when they're not out right whoring themselves out to them first.

Speaking of combat, don't think that little kickboxing/hot-yoga class is going to help you stop the 260 pound savage who's been pounding weights in the joint for the last three years when he meets you in that dark alley or unlit parking lot.


Again,there's the diffrerence in the biology of the sexes as opposed to the fantisizing of the Left with their "science" of women are tougher than men or the rosie the riveter fanclub. The truth is, they're are just some facts that you can't deny in this world.

Realty's a ****...eh, you know what i mean.



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« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 11:18:41 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Women
« Reply #133 on: July 07, 2014, 08:49:52 PM »
There's too much difference in the physical, mental, emotional stature between the sexes ...

Well, I'm with you there.

Where were you when your wife was giving birth? When your mother was putting up with you? Where were you when the your elementary school history class covered pioneer women? Where were you when the overwhelming number of scientific reports emerged, since away back in the '70s, not to mention in just the last few years, showing women's bodies endure more, process pain better, and are more efficient mechanically and chemically? Where were you when girls outdid boys in school on every metric? And, lastly, where were you when the priest and faithful praised the Theotokos every year and every week and every day in the most certain terms?

And what do you get out of this braggart posture toward coworkers, wife, daughters, passersby? What is the rush it gives you that is more valuable than honest relations and sincere synergy and life-giving humility before God and Mother of God? (What could be more valuable than that?)
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Women
« Reply #134 on: July 07, 2014, 08:54:11 PM »
That's when they're not out right whoring themselves out to them first.

Speaking of combat, don't think that little kickboxing/hot-yoga class is going to help you stop the 260 pound savage who's been pounding weights in the joint for the last three years when he meets you in that dark alley or unlit parking lot.

Again,there's the diffrerence in the biology of the sexes as opposed to the fantisizing of the Left with their "science" of women are tougher than men or the rosie the riveter fanclub. The truth is, they're are just some facts that you can't deny in this world.

Realty's a bi.....eh, you know what i mean.

Well now I know you're (determined to pose as) a hateful son of a skunk-cabbage with no ability to absorb anything besides your own toxins. Thank you for making plain on whom I should not be wasting time typing.

Porter ODoran, this is a borderline personal attack against another poster.  Feel free to attack the arguments of someone all you want in the Free-for-All section, but attacks against the person are off limits.  Please refrain from doing this in future.  
Thank you.
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« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 02:13:02 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy