Author Topic: Women  (Read 8396 times)

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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Women
« on: July 04, 2014, 05:51:24 PM »

I couldn't help but notice all the various threads on the Forum currently expressly demeaning to the fairer sex.

I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

That the Theotokos, through whom, and without whom the incarnate Lord would not have entered this world as a man, and would not have led to your possible salvation, was a woman, greatly loved by Him.

That there are countless saints of the female variety.

That your mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters are females.

That when you make a blanket statement about women "in general", an off-color joke about females, express the sluttiness, the smell, the undercarriage, the cleavage, the this, the that....that you insult every single woman ever born.

Just think about it. 
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Maria

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Re: Women
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 06:05:40 PM »

I couldn't help but notice all the various threads on the Forum currently expressly demeaning to the fairer sex.

I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

That the Theotokos, through whom, and without whom the incarnate Lord would not have entered this world as a man, and would not have led to your possible salvation, was a woman, greatly loved by Him.

That there are countless saints of the female variety.

That your mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters are females.

That when you make a blanket statement about women "in general", an off-color joke about females, express the sluttiness, the smell, the undercarriage, the cleavage, the this, the that....that you insult every single woman ever born.

Just think about it.  


Thanks for this post, Liza.

It is interesting how a woman "smells" but a hard working man just has a lot of testosterone.

In my school day years, I have been on a bus with a lot of hard working males, and the horrific odor can make a woman pass out.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 06:06:21 PM by Maria »
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Offline biro

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Re: Women
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 06:12:30 PM »
"Male and female he made them."

 :-*

It's important that we love one another, as tough as it can be.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Women
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 06:19:15 PM »
Question: How did some of the angels fall?
Answer: Pride.

Question: But were they not wonderful?
Answer: Yes, but still capable of falling, not in spite of their wondrous nature, but because of it.

Question: Are human women not angelic and wondrous?
Answer: Many are, yes.

Question: Do you want these women to fall from grace?
Answer: God forbid!

Question: What can lowly, fallible, mortal males do about this?
Answer: Very much!

Question: What is an example?
Answer: Making sure the wonder never progresses to the point that there is a prideful downfall.

Question: How is this accomplished?
Answer: Boob talk.

Online Justin Kissel

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Re: Women
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 06:21:32 PM »
(I never mean anything I say about women in general to be demeaning. Usually I'm just joking around, though sometimes more crudely than I should. If it is too much, by all means say something.  :angel: )

Offline The Fool

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Re: Women
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 06:23:22 PM »
Yes, mother.  :(

 ;)
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Women
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2014, 10:58:25 PM »

I couldn't help but notice all the various threads on the Forum currently expressly demeaning to the fairer sex.

I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

That the Theotokos, through whom, and without whom the incarnate Lord would not have entered this world as a man, and would not have led to your possible salvation, was a woman, greatly loved by Him.

That there are countless saints of the female variety.

That your mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters are females.

That when you make a blanket statement about women "in general", an off-color joke about females, express the sluttiness, the smell, the undercarriage, the cleavage, the this, the that....that you insult every single woman ever born.

Just think about it. 


WHich threads in particular? 

BTW, I'm free to make jokes about particular women correct as long as I'm not classing them altogether, right?  Because I've got a lot of jokes about my wife. 
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline JamesR

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Re: Women
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 06:36:07 AM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.

Quote
That when you make a blanket statement about women "in general", an off-color joke about females, express the sluttiness, the smell, the undercarriage, the cleavage, the this, the that....that you insult every single woman ever born.

For what it is worth, I have never made a cleavage joke :angel: blonde hair and French tipped nails matter more from a physical standpoint anyway.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:37:02 AM by JamesR »
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline The Fool

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Re: Women
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 06:44:19 AM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.

Equal in dignity and worth? Certainly. Identical, with the same rights and duties? Certainly not. If you don't agree with "traditional Christianity", why are you Orthodox? The whole point is to be an authentic "traditional Christian".
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Women
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 06:51:45 AM »
I am sure that the dignity and worth part is what Liza means here.

But per the usual, rather than thinking on it and perhaps deciding this isn't the place to post threads with numerous quips about women, instead people will argue the definition.  So that they can maneuver a way to claim 'but I don't do that,'

Sadly, the stats say this forum is a boys club, so a woman pointing a concern out is seen as nagging and fun spoiling, like a mom. Rather than as a voice of worth.

Offline biro

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Re: Women
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 07:03:11 AM »
I am sure that the dignity and worth part is what Liza means here.

But per the usual, rather than thinking on it and perhaps deciding this isn't the place to post threads with numerous quips about women, instead people will argue the definition.  So that they can maneuver a way to claim 'but I don't do that,'

Sadly, the stats say this forum is a boys club, so a woman pointing a concern out is seen as nagging and fun spoiling, like a mom. Rather than as a voice of worth.

Of course.

Offline kelly

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Re: Women
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 07:17:31 AM »
I am sure that the dignity and worth part is what Liza means here.

But per the usual, rather than thinking on it and perhaps deciding this isn't the place to post threads with numerous quips about women, instead people will argue the definition.  So that they can maneuver a way to claim 'but I don't do that,'

Sadly, the stats say this forum is a boys club, so a woman pointing a concern out is seen as nagging and fun spoiling, like a mom. Rather than as a voice of worth.

I'm sorry, did someone say something?
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

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Offline Joha

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Re: Women
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 09:48:01 AM »
I am sure that the dignity and worth part is what Liza means here.

But per the usual, rather than thinking on it and perhaps deciding this isn't the place to post threads with numerous quips about women, instead people will argue the definition.  So that they can maneuver a way to claim 'but I don't do that,'

Sadly, the stats say this forum is a boys club, so a woman pointing a concern out is seen as nagging and fun spoiling, like a mom. Rather than as a voice of worth.

I'm sorry, did someone say something?

I sure hope so, otherwise I'm seeing thing that aren't there  :P
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
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Offline kelly

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Re: Women
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 09:50:41 AM »
I am sure that the dignity and worth part is what Liza means here.

But per the usual, rather than thinking on it and perhaps deciding this isn't the place to post threads with numerous quips about women, instead people will argue the definition.  So that they can maneuver a way to claim 'but I don't do that,'

Sadly, the stats say this forum is a boys club, so a woman pointing a concern out is seen as nagging and fun spoiling, like a mom. Rather than as a voice of worth.

I'm sorry, did someone say something?

I sure hope so, otherwise I'm seeing thing that aren't there  :P

It was a joke. :p
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:51:00 AM by kelly »
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

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Offline Joha

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Re: Women
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 09:52:26 AM »
I am sure that the dignity and worth part is what Liza means here.

But per the usual, rather than thinking on it and perhaps deciding this isn't the place to post threads with numerous quips about women, instead people will argue the definition.  So that they can maneuver a way to claim 'but I don't do that,'

Sadly, the stats say this forum is a boys club, so a woman pointing a concern out is seen as nagging and fun spoiling, like a mom. Rather than as a voice of worth.

I'm sorry, did someone say something?

I sure hope so, otherwise I'm seeing thing that aren't there  :P

It was a joke. :p


Oh really? :P
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Psalm 57:2 I will cry out to God Most High, To God who performs all things for me.
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Offline sakura95

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Re: Women
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2014, 11:09:35 AM »
In all honesty, while I view males as equivalent to females, when I apply this to myself, I could only feel inferior given how bad my social skills are when it comes to talking to girls face to face or having a casual conversation. Also given that I know close to nothing about them, girls are simply mysterious to me. These sound absurd but it is true...in my case.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 11:12:36 AM by sakura95 »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Women
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2014, 11:36:46 AM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.


Wrong.  I have read all of them. 

Traditional Orthodoxy does not condone men belittling women.  That is Islam.

If you think otherwise, please post a quote from Scripture or Tradition that tells men they are to ridicule, belittle, and humiliate women every chance they get. 

I'm always open to theological education.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline kelly

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Re: Women
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2014, 11:38:55 AM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.


Wrong.  I have read all of them. 

Traditional Orthodoxy does not condone men belittling women.  That is Islam.

If you think otherwise, please post a quote from Scripture or Tradition that tells men they are to ridicule, belittle, and humiliate women every chance they get. 

I'm always open to theological education.



Thank you for speaking out about this Liza. This board has been even more misogynistic than usual lately.
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

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Offline biro

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Re: Women
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2014, 11:40:40 AM »
St. Paul did say a woman should submit to her husband, but he also told a man to love his wife as Christ loved the Church.

He said a woman should not have teaching authority over a man, but he also allowed there to be deaconesses.

God and the Church give each of the sexes a lot of responsibility- but so each can use their different talents for the good.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Women
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2014, 11:45:12 AM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.

Equal in dignity and worth? Certainly. Identical, with the same rights and duties? Certainly not. If you don't agree with "traditional Christianity", why are you Orthodox? The whole point is to be an authentic "traditional Christian".

Why do you immediately bring my faith in to question?

I didn't say that women should become priests.  I didn't say we should be allowed to enter the Altar.

All I said was that God created both man and woman, and He loves them both.  

Christ never belittled a woman.  He may have belittled her sin, just as He did the sins of men....but, he never put her down merely for being a female.



Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LBK

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Re: Women
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2014, 11:52:28 AM »
Quote
He said a woman should not have teaching authority over a man, but he also allowed there to be deaconesses.

Here are relevant selections from the services for several female saints, of varying stations in life and place of origin, which have something to say about women teaching:

Protomartyr Thekla of Iconium (1st century):

You shone out with the beauty of virginity, you were adorned with a crown of martyrdom, you were entrusted with the work of an apostle, glorious Virgin; and you changed the fire’s flame to dew, while by prayer you tamed the raging of the bull as victorious first Champion.

St Mary Magdalene (1st century):

First to see the divine Resurrection of the First Cause of blessings, who in his compassion made our nature divine you were revealed as also the first herald of the Gospel, Mary Magdalen, as you cried to the Apostles, ‘Put away despair, regain good cheer, and come, look now on Christ who has risen again and grants the world his great mercy.’

Mary Magdalen, having as his disciple faithfully served Christ our God, who willingly made himself poor with my poverty in his surpassing compassion, when she saw him stretched on a Cross and shut up in a tomb, weeping cried out, ‘What is this strange sight? How is he who gives life to the dead numbered among the dead? What sweet spices can I bring the one who freed me from the foul stench of the demons? What tears can I shed for the one who stripped my foremother of her tears?’ But the Sovereign of the universe, appearing like the guardian of Paradise, by the dew of his words banished the heat and said to her, ‘Go to my brethren and shout aloud the good tidings of joy: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God, that I may grant the world my great mercy.’

Joyfully you came to the tomb of the Redeemer, being the first, O Maiden, to look on the divine Resurrection. Therefore you were declared herald of the Gospel and cried out: Christ has been raised. Clap your hands.

After the divine Passion, after the dread Resurrection of the Saviour you hurried to and fro, proclaiming the holy word, and as a Disciple of the Word catching many who had been deceived by ignorance, glorious Saint.

Christ the light of the world, seeing you the vigilant eye of faith and the inseparable charm of love, honoured Saint, on rising from the grave showed himself to you first, who had hastened with sweet spices and drawn near to the unapproachable. He in return granted you the divine force of the Spirit and revealed to you the design of his ascent to the Father who has no beginning. And he sent you to proclaim the divine good tidings of his Rising to the Disciples, petrified with fear. And so, as you have the greatest freedom to address him, you intercede at every moment on behalf of the world.


Venerable Bathildis, Queen of the Franks (7th century):

Sound forth the clarions of piety, O ye faithful; for the righteous Bathildis, the queen of the Franks, hath entered with glory into the mansions on high, escorted by the saints whom she cared for in this life, and welcomed by the hosts of the angels! And with fulsome voices recount ye the multitude of her many virtues: how she was kindhearted, sober, and prudent in all her works; how she kept her tongue from evil and her lips from speaking guile, wishing evil unto none; how she fled worldly honors, seeking instead heavenly reward; how in her solicitude she was a mother to princes, a daughter to priests, a sister to monastics, a tutor to the young in reverence, a wise counselor to elders, and a fountain of alms for the poor. And as she desired to serve Christ in every way, so let us ever strive to imitate her godly conduct, that with her we may worthily glorify the most worshipful Trinity our God.

Zealous for righteousness, the wondrous Bathildis strove mightily to uproot the tares of simony from the Church of God, and with the scythe of the Spirit she mowed down the baneful slaughter of the newborn that was rife among the Franks; wherefore, as an upholder of the goodness of the Almighty, she standeth with boldness at His tribunal on high, in her supplications asking mercy for all who approach her with tears of contrition and compunctionate prayers.

Discerning with spiritual sight the true nature of the Franks, and understanding the inner workings of their hearts, the divinely wise Bathildis said: “O the loving-kindness of the Almighty! O His great care for His creatures! How can I, a lowly handmaid and bondswoman, take part in the high affairs of kingdoms and rulers? How can I hope to do His will, who desire but to save my own sinful soul? But grant me prudence, O Savior, that I may govern Thy people with wisdom, as the righteous Deborah judged Israel of old." Wherefore, with hymns of praise we magnify her, the glory of France and boast of all the Orthodox.

Though wielding regal power and arrayed in royal vesture, O Bathildis, thou didst ever maintain thy modesty, acting mercifully and walking humbly with thy God.


St Hilda of Whitby (7th century):

Wisdom and great prudence adorned thy character, O blessed one, and piety and grace embellished thy soul, so that those of every rank and station - kings and princes, common folk and clergy - resorted to thee for godly counsel.

In those under obedience to thee thou didst instil a love of the Sacred Scriptures, O Hilda, that guided by the divine precepts of Christ, they might be moved to live virtuously and do good unto their neighbour, being thus well pleasing to God.

The sound of thy holiness went forth into all the land, O glorious one, for report of thy gracious life inspired even those who dwelt afar off to turn away from sin, to amend their lives, and to seek salvation of soul from the Almighty.

Thou wast called mother by all who knew thee, O Hilda; for by goodly instruction in the Christian life thou didst nourish those who came to thee, imparting virtue and piety to them as a loving mother feedeth her children at her breast.

Young and old found thee to be a well-spring of wisdom, O venerable one, and like deer panting after fountains of living water, they drew forth refreshment from thee.

Loving God above all, and her neighbour as herself, Hilda never ceased to instruct His reason-endowed flock until her end.
Fed by thee on the verdure of piety, O Hilda, thy flock waxed strong in godliness; and among the sheep and lambs thereof, like mighty rams stood five who became great among the hierarchs of England - Bosa of York and Hedda of Dorchester, John of Beverly and Wilfrid of Hexham, and the blessed Oftfor of the Isle of Wight - who of thee learned well the law of the Lord; and the blessed Cædmon likewise, who fashioned wondrous hymns to God in his native tongue, was encouraged by thee to increase the talent with which God endowed him. Wherefore, rejoicing in thy many benefactions, we give thanks for thee unto God, for gloriously is He glorified in the saints whom thou hadst engendered by the Spirit.


St Geneviève of Paris (5th-6th century):

Unto us, the faithful, hath the Lord given a wondrous sign: the venerable Geneviève, bride of the noetic Bridegroom, guide of virgins, counselor of kings and princes, mighty protectress of her city, who by her supplications doth repel the foe and dispel grievous pestilence.

Come, ye who love the saints of God, and let us praise Geneviève, the instrument of the Spirit, blessing her as a model of piety, a wondrous healer of our souls and bodies. And with wreaths of eloquence let us crown her, our intercessor, the radiant lamp of France, the clear-voiced clarion of divine discourse, the divinely wise seer of visions, the devoted daughter of the all-pure Mother of God; and let us cry out to her thus: Hail, O unblemished ewe-lamb! Hail, O thou who leadest us to the knowledge of God! Hail, boast of the great city of Paris! Hail, adornment of all Gaul and glory of Christendom!

The report of thy sanctity spread the world over, and multitudes journeyed to see and converse with thee, seeking solace and pious counsel, O Geneviève; and, edified, they cried: O God of our fathers, blessed art Thou!

O Paris, thou city of light, rejoice and be glad; for today is celebrated the splendid memory of Geneviève thy protectress, the peer of the holy women of old, the preacher of the Gospel, the beholder of visions divine, the ward of holy hierarchs, thy bold champion and mediatress, the seer who foretold the future, the mother of the poor and guardian of maidens! And honoring her, with us cry aloud: O Christ God, by the supplications of thy holy one establish Thy Church in peace!


St Olga, Great-princess of Kiev (9th-10th century):

Your memory dawns like the sun, holy Olga.
The mother of Russian kings, you pointed the way to Christ.
Teaching the angelic way, you overthrew the idols,
And the devil you countered with strength from the Holy Spirit.
You led the whole land to God from the darkness of ignorance.
Pray to him for those who remember you.


I'm sure that a more thorough examination of any Menaion would bring forth a good many more examples, showing that St Paul's directive against women teaching cannot be regarded as an absolute. It is also worth noting that the Epistle reading appointed for most of these saints is Gal. 3:23-29.
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Offline sakura95

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Re: Women
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2014, 12:05:02 PM »
Quote
He said a woman should not have teaching authority over a man, but he also allowed there to be deaconesses.

Here are relevant selections from the services for several female saints, of varying stations in life and place of origin, which have something to say about women teaching:

Protomartyr Thekla of Iconium (1st century):

You shone out with the beauty of virginity, you were adorned with a crown of martyrdom, you were entrusted with the work of an apostle, glorious Virgin; and you changed the fire’s flame to dew, while by prayer you tamed the raging of the bull as victorious first Champion.

St Mary Magdalene (1st century):

First to see the divine Resurrection of the First Cause of blessings, who in his compassion made our nature divine you were revealed as also the first herald of the Gospel, Mary Magdalen, as you cried to the Apostles, ‘Put away despair, regain good cheer, and come, look now on Christ who has risen again and grants the world his great mercy.’

Mary Magdalen, having as his disciple faithfully served Christ our God, who willingly made himself poor with my poverty in his surpassing compassion, when she saw him stretched on a Cross and shut up in a tomb, weeping cried out, ‘What is this strange sight? How is he who gives life to the dead numbered among the dead? What sweet spices can I bring the one who freed me from the foul stench of the demons? What tears can I shed for the one who stripped my foremother of her tears?’ But the Sovereign of the universe, appearing like the guardian of Paradise, by the dew of his words banished the heat and said to her, ‘Go to my brethren and shout aloud the good tidings of joy: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God, that I may grant the world my great mercy.’

Joyfully you came to the tomb of the Redeemer, being the first, O Maiden, to look on the divine Resurrection. Therefore you were declared herald of the Gospel and cried out: Christ has been raised. Clap your hands.

After the divine Passion, after the dread Resurrection of the Saviour you hurried to and fro, proclaiming the holy word, and as a Disciple of the Word catching many who had been deceived by ignorance, glorious Saint.

Christ the light of the world, seeing you the vigilant eye of faith and the inseparable charm of love, honoured Saint, on rising from the grave showed himself to you first, who had hastened with sweet spices and drawn near to the unapproachable. He in return granted you the divine force of the Spirit and revealed to you the design of his ascent to the Father who has no beginning. And he sent you to proclaim the divine good tidings of his Rising to the Disciples, petrified with fear. And so, as you have the greatest freedom to address him, you intercede at every moment on behalf of the world.


Venerable Bathildis, Queen of the Franks (7th century):

Sound forth the clarions of piety, O ye faithful; for the righteous Bathildis, the queen of the Franks, hath entered with glory into the mansions on high, escorted by the saints whom she cared for in this life, and welcomed by the hosts of the angels! And with fulsome voices recount ye the multitude of her many virtues: how she was kindhearted, sober, and prudent in all her works; how she kept her tongue from evil and her lips from speaking guile, wishing evil unto none; how she fled worldly honors, seeking instead heavenly reward; how in her solicitude she was a mother to princes, a daughter to priests, a sister to monastics, a tutor to the young in reverence, a wise counselor to elders, and a fountain of alms for the poor. And as she desired to serve Christ in every way, so let us ever strive to imitate her godly conduct, that with her we may worthily glorify the most worshipful Trinity our God.

Zealous for righteousness, the wondrous Bathildis strove mightily to uproot the tares of simony from the Church of God, and with the scythe of the Spirit she mowed down the baneful slaughter of the newborn that was rife among the Franks; wherefore, as an upholder of the goodness of the Almighty, she standeth with boldness at His tribunal on high, in her supplications asking mercy for all who approach her with tears of contrition and compunctionate prayers.

Discerning with spiritual sight the true nature of the Franks, and understanding the inner workings of their hearts, the divinely wise Bathildis said: “O the loving-kindness of the Almighty! O His great care for His creatures! How can I, a lowly handmaid and bondswoman, take part in the high affairs of kingdoms and rulers? How can I hope to do His will, who desire but to save my own sinful soul? But grant me prudence, O Savior, that I may govern Thy people with wisdom, as the righteous Deborah judged Israel of old." Wherefore, with hymns of praise we magnify her, the glory of France and boast of all the Orthodox.

Though wielding regal power and arrayed in royal vesture, O Bathildis, thou didst ever maintain thy modesty, acting mercifully and walking humbly with thy God.


St Hilda of Whitby (7th century):

Wisdom and great prudence adorned thy character, O blessed one, and piety and grace embellished thy soul, so that those of every rank and station - kings and princes, common folk and clergy - resorted to thee for godly counsel.

In those under obedience to thee thou didst instil a love of the Sacred Scriptures, O Hilda, that guided by the divine precepts of Christ, they might be moved to live virtuously and do good unto their neighbour, being thus well pleasing to God.

The sound of thy holiness went forth into all the land, O glorious one, for report of thy gracious life inspired even those who dwelt afar off to turn away from sin, to amend their lives, and to seek salvation of soul from the Almighty.

Thou wast called mother by all who knew thee, O Hilda; for by goodly instruction in the Christian life thou didst nourish those who came to thee, imparting virtue and piety to them as a loving mother feedeth her children at her breast.

Young and old found thee to be a well-spring of wisdom, O venerable one, and like deer panting after fountains of living water, they drew forth refreshment from thee.

Loving God above all, and her neighbour as herself, Hilda never ceased to instruct His reason-endowed flock until her end.
Fed by thee on the verdure of piety, O Hilda, thy flock waxed strong in godliness; and among the sheep and lambs thereof, like mighty rams stood five who became great among the hierarchs of England - Bosa of York and Hedda of Dorchester, John of Beverly and Wilfrid of Hexham, and the blessed Oftfor of the Isle of Wight - who of thee learned well the law of the Lord; and the blessed Cædmon likewise, who fashioned wondrous hymns to God in his native tongue, was encouraged by thee to increase the talent with which God endowed him. Wherefore, rejoicing in thy many benefactions, we give thanks for thee unto God, for gloriously is He glorified in the saints whom thou hadst engendered by the Spirit.


St Geneviève of Paris (5th-6th century):

Unto us, the faithful, hath the Lord given a wondrous sign: the venerable Geneviève, bride of the noetic Bridegroom, guide of virgins, counselor of kings and princes, mighty protectress of her city, who by her supplications doth repel the foe and dispel grievous pestilence.

Come, ye who love the saints of God, and let us praise Geneviève, the instrument of the Spirit, blessing her as a model of piety, a wondrous healer of our souls and bodies. And with wreaths of eloquence let us crown her, our intercessor, the radiant lamp of France, the clear-voiced clarion of divine discourse, the divinely wise seer of visions, the devoted daughter of the all-pure Mother of God; and let us cry out to her thus: Hail, O unblemished ewe-lamb! Hail, O thou who leadest us to the knowledge of God! Hail, boast of the great city of Paris! Hail, adornment of all Gaul and glory of Christendom!

The report of thy sanctity spread the world over, and multitudes journeyed to see and converse with thee, seeking solace and pious counsel, O Geneviève; and, edified, they cried: O God of our fathers, blessed art Thou!

O Paris, thou city of light, rejoice and be glad; for today is celebrated the splendid memory of Geneviève thy protectress, the peer of the holy women of old, the preacher of the Gospel, the beholder of visions divine, the ward of holy hierarchs, thy bold champion and mediatress, the seer who foretold the future, the mother of the poor and guardian of maidens! And honoring her, with us cry aloud: O Christ God, by the supplications of thy holy one establish Thy Church in peace!


St Olga, Great-princess of Kiev (9th-10th century):

Your memory dawns like the sun, holy Olga.
The mother of Russian kings, you pointed the way to Christ.
Teaching the angelic way, you overthrew the idols,
And the devil you countered with strength from the Holy Spirit.
You led the whole land to God from the darkness of ignorance.
Pray to him for those who remember you.


I'm sure that a more thorough examination of any Menaion would bring forth a good many more examples, showing that St Paul's directive against women teaching cannot be regarded as an absolute. It is also worth noting that the Epistle reading appointed for most of these saints is Gal. 3:23-29.

Shouldn't the very fact that the Church's greatest Saint is a Woman and the fact that this Woman is the only human being in History to Host the Divine Presence and become the Mother of our Savior Jesus be sufficient to stress out how Orthodoxy is not sexist and in actuality affirm the rights and equality of women. Orthodoxy simply affirms that the roles of the male and the female of the Church be different but these differing roles are equal. Also, St Paul also advised men to love their own wives as their own flesh. That should be a strong statement of St Paul affirming gender equality. I stress again that this does not mean that I support having female bishops and priests.
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Re: Women
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2014, 12:06:29 PM »
I stress again that this does not mean that I support having female bishops and priests.

LOL!

Nor do I.
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Re: Women
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2014, 12:07:25 PM »
I stress again that this does not mean that I support having female bishops and priests.

LOL!

Nor do I.

How about deaconesses?  :P
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Re: Women
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2014, 12:10:03 PM »
I stress again that this does not mean that I support having female bishops and priests.

LOL!

Nor do I.

Neither do I.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Women
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2014, 12:15:46 PM »
And per the usual for here, we are now sidetracked into liturgical matters and scripture.

Detracting from the original message.


Which was.

Stop making hateful, disgusting and disrespectful comments about women.


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Re: Women
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2014, 12:16:00 PM »
I stress again that this does not mean that I support having female bishops and priests.

LOL!

Nor do I.

How about deaconesses?  :P

Now THAT would be cool.  ;)
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Re: Women
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2014, 12:16:48 PM »
I'll just leave this here:

http://frederica.com/writings/womens-ordination.html

It covers a lot more ground than the title suggests.
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Women
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2014, 12:17:24 PM »
I didn't say that women should become priests.  I didn't say we should be allowed to enter the Altar.

All I said was that God created both man and woman, and He loves them both.  

Christ never belittled a woman.  He may have belittled her sin, just as He did the sins of men....but, he never put her down merely for being a female.

Agree!
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Re: Women
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2014, 12:18:13 PM »
I stress again that this does not mean that I support having female bishops and priests.

LOL!

Nor do I.

How about deaconesses?  :P

I thought there's nothing wrong with deaconesses, the Early Church is known to have them and I don't remember the Orthodox Churches forbidding women to serve as deaconesses.
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Offline Branthony

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Re: Women
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2014, 12:43:59 PM »
Ok, I have been Orthodox for only about four years and have been married only three weeks, but I will say that first, this idea of equality that the world puts forth is not Orthodox. The way it works in my home is I am in charge, she submits to me, however this isn't a position of weakness or of lesser status. My wife is the only thing that is important to me there for I do not abuse her. Every decision I make is for her benefit. She sometimes has to do things she doesn't want to do, however she knows that my heart is always in the right place. an example of this is, she wants to be a stay at home mom, I fully support this, however she must go to College. She doesn't want to go to school, and she doesn't see the point since she is going to stay at home with the children (once they come). I however see it differently, we plan to home school our children, so her having an education will help when she is teaching the children. something could happen to me and I not be able to support our home anymore and she would have to go to work, an education will help her find a job if she needs it. and lastly we will want our children to go to college and so we should lead by example and both of us should have a college education. So in the end, does she want to go to college? no, will she? yes, because she is a good wife and has submitted to her husbands authority. Are we equal? no, we are not, but equality would not make our marriage better but instead would harm it. no one can serve two masters, and a body doesn't work with two heads. She must submit but I have the greater responsibility of making sure she is happy, and taken care of. Every decision I make I must think about her first, even before my own wants and needs. Maybe I'm wrong but we believe that this is what a christian marriage is. 
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Re: Women
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2014, 12:50:37 PM »
Forget about equality, just stop talking smack about women all the time.
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Re: Women
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2014, 12:51:22 PM »
Forget about equality, just stop talking smack about women all the time.

This!

I'll settle for that, any day.

Offline The Fool

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Re: Women
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2014, 12:55:17 PM »
Quote
He said a woman should not have teaching authority over a man, but he also allowed there to be deaconesses.

Here are relevant selections from the services for several female saints, of varying stations in life and place of origin, which have something to say about women teaching:
We are, right now, being taught by a woman about women teaching. This is meta.

 ;)
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Women
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2014, 01:00:23 PM »
Forget about equality, just stop talking smack about women all the time.
It's the way that the little boys hiding behind their beards on this forum compensate for the fact they're afraid of women.

It ain't right, it just is.

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Re: Women
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2014, 01:02:06 PM »
Quote
He said a woman should not have teaching authority over a man, but he also allowed there to be deaconesses.

Here are relevant selections from the services for several female saints, of varying stations in life and place of origin, which have something to say about women teaching:
We are, right now, being taught by a woman about women teaching. This is meta.

 ;)

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Re: Women
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2014, 01:04:33 PM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.

Equal in dignity and worth? Certainly. Identical, with the same rights and duties? Certainly not. If you don't agree with "traditional Christianity", why are you Orthodox? The whole point is to be an authentic "traditional Christian".

Why do you immediately bring my faith in to question?

I didn't say that women should become priests.  I didn't say we should be allowed to enter the Altar.

All I said was that God created both man and woman, and He loves them both.  

Christ never belittled a woman.  He may have belittled her sin, just as He did the sins of men....but, he never put her down merely for being a female.





I think The Fool was asking James why he is Orthodox, not you, Liza.
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Re: Women
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2014, 01:11:16 PM »
Ok, I have been Orthodox for only about four years and have been married only three weeks, but I will say that first, this idea of equality that the world puts forth is not Orthodox. The way it works in my home is I am in charge, she submits to me, however this isn't a position of weakness or of lesser status. My wife is the only thing that is important to me there for I do not abuse her. Every decision I make is for her benefit. She sometimes has to do things she doesn't want to do, however she knows that my heart is always in the right place. an example of this is, she wants to be a stay at home mom, I fully support this, however she must go to College. She doesn't want to go to school, and she doesn't see the point since she is going to stay at home with the children (once they come). I however see it differently, we plan to home school our children, so her having an education will help when she is teaching the children. something could happen to me and I not be able to support our home anymore and she would have to go to work, an education will help her find a job if she needs it. and lastly we will want our children to go to college and so we should lead by example and both of us should have a college education. So in the end, does she want to go to college? no, will she? yes, because she is a good wife and has submitted to her husbands authority. Are we equal? no, we are not, but equality would not make our marriage better but instead would harm it. no one can serve two masters, and a body doesn't work with two heads. She must submit but I have the greater responsibility of making sure she is happy, and taken care of. Every decision I make I must think about her first, even before my own wants and needs. Maybe I'm wrong but we believe that this is what a christian marriage is. 

You are definitely NOT wrong.

I have no problem with a woman submitting to her husband in a marriage.  

However, I disagree that you are not equal.  She will have her duties as a mother and wife, and you as a husband and father.  In the end those duties, while different, will weigh the same.  

You are equally yoked, to pull the wagon of a family, together.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

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Re: Women
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2014, 01:12:50 PM »
I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

I hate to play Devil's advocate, but I see someone hasn't read Genesis, St. Paul and the Fathers.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but our opinion certainly isn't that of traditional Christianity.

Equal in dignity and worth? Certainly. Identical, with the same rights and duties? Certainly not. If you don't agree with "traditional Christianity", why are you Orthodox? The whole point is to be an authentic "traditional Christian".

Why do you immediately bring my faith in to question?

I didn't say that women should become priests.  I didn't say we should be allowed to enter the Altar.

All I said was that God created both man and woman, and He loves them both.  

Christ never belittled a woman.  He may have belittled her sin, just as He did the sins of men....but, he never put her down merely for being a female.





I think The Fool was asking James why he is Orthodox, not you, Liza.

Ohhhh..  OK.   :angel:
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Re: Women
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2014, 01:15:43 PM »
Everyone keeps makin this a matter of faith.

It is instead a matter of common decency.

I know dozens of atheists and other people of not any faith and they would die before saying some of the crap men here say about women.

That isn't really a testament to us, now is it?


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Re: Women
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2014, 01:30:32 PM »
Sooner or later, everyone gets what they deserve. :police:

:(

I think The Fool was asking James why he is Orthodox, not you, Liza.

Ohhhh..  OK.   :angel:

Sorry, I missed your post earlier, that's why I didn't reply. Yes, that wasn't directed at you.
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Re: Women
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2014, 01:34:24 PM »
St. Paul
Which of his universal letters did you have in mind?
Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

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Re: Women
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2014, 01:46:24 PM »
St. Paul
Which of his universal letters did you have in mind?

Ephesians I believe it was. Also Corinthians.

The St. John Chrysostom, on Genesis, saying that women were made for men and some other inequality stuff.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Women
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2014, 01:49:23 PM »
Christ never belittled a woman.  He may have belittled her sin, just as He did the sins of men....but, he never put her down merely for being a female.

Well He sorta did with the Gentile woman by only helping her after she compared herself to a dog.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

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Re: Women
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2014, 01:50:33 PM »

I couldn't help but notice all the various threads on the Forum currently expressly demeaning to the fairer sex.

I just wanted to remind all of you, especially the men, that God has created both genders equal.

That the Theotokos, through whom, and without whom the incarnate Lord would not have entered this world as a man, and would not have led to your possible salvation, was a woman, greatly loved by Him.

That there are countless saints of the female variety.

That your mothers, sisters, aunts and daughters are females.

That when you make a blanket statement about women "in general", an off-color joke about females, express the sluttiness, the smell, the undercarriage, the cleavage, the this, the that....that you insult every single woman ever born.

Just think about it.  


Thanks for this post, Liza.

It is interesting how a woman "smells" but a hard working man just has a lot of testosterone.

In my school day years, I have been on a bus with a lot of hard working males, and the horrific odor can make a woman pass out.
No man talks about liking locker room smell.

I recall some study on male smell making men more violent, like at soccer games.  So I'm guessing I'm not the only one not liking it.
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