Author Topic: Things you like about those schismatics  (Read 8289 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #270 on: July 07, 2014, 12:08:44 PM »
I'd rather starve than be forced to attend a short Baptist service to get food. That's begging more than asking for help.
Most Baptist services that I've attended define "short service" as a 45 minute sermon on the evils of alcohol or something similar. I enjoy them because they are a great time to catch up on my sleep.  If only they made their pews more comfortable...  :(
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #271 on: July 07, 2014, 05:28:26 PM »
I think there is precedent in the Bible for requiring the people to attend a service when Jesus fed the multitude. (Matthew 14:13)

They went to hear him speak.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:35:49 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #272 on: July 07, 2014, 05:32:42 PM »
I think there is precedent in the Bible for requiring the people to attend a service when Jesus fed the multitude. (Matthew 14:13)

LOL. 
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #273 on: July 07, 2014, 11:01:58 PM »
I think the homeless shelters in our area which are inter-denominational usually require the homeless that stay there to listen to some generic Christian message at some point during their stay. I don't know if I would refuse food or shelter to someone who didn't want to hear a message, but I think it isn't a bad thing to tell people about Jesus. The poor need hope just as much if not more than anyone else.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #274 on: July 07, 2014, 11:27:27 PM »
I think there is precedent in the Bible for requiring the people to attend a service when Jesus fed the multitude. (Matthew 14:13)

They went to hear him speak.
I hope that was a joke.

I think the homeless shelters in our area which are inter-denominational usually require the homeless that stay there to listen to some generic Christian message at some point during their stay. I don't know if I would refuse food or shelter to someone who didn't want to hear a message, but I think it isn't a bad thing to tell people about Jesus. The poor need hope just as much if not more than anyone else.

There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 11:27:56 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline The Fool

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #275 on: July 08, 2014, 12:23:46 AM »
There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.

Also worth noting that they're likely to resent and ignore the teaching if they have to sit through it to get their food. They're more likely to take the teaching to heart if the food comes first and they can leave right after.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #276 on: July 08, 2014, 12:40:10 AM »
I love Icons, the Jesus Prayer, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (what I have seen of it, I have only seen televised but I want to attend one some day), and faithful devotion to Christ that I see in the Orthodox Christians I have had the pleasure of knowing.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #277 on: July 08, 2014, 02:57:50 PM »
There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.

Also worth noting that they're likely to resent and ignore the teaching if they have to sit through it to get their food. They're more likely to take the teaching to heart if the food comes first and they can leave right after.
exactly!
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #278 on: July 08, 2014, 05:42:50 PM »
There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.

Also worth noting that they're likely to resent and ignore the teaching if they have to sit through it to get their food. They're more likely to take the teaching to heart if the food comes first and they can leave right after.
exactly!

Not much different than when I was young and didnt feel like going and my folks forced me.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #279 on: July 08, 2014, 05:51:54 PM »
There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.

Also worth noting that they're likely to resent and ignore the teaching if they have to sit through it to get their food. They're more likely to take the teaching to heart if the food comes first and they can leave right after.
exactly!

Not much different than when I was young and didnt feel like going and my folks forced me.

Actually, it's quite different unless you personally sired the world's poor.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #280 on: July 08, 2014, 05:57:26 PM »
There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.

Also worth noting that they're likely to resent and ignore the teaching if they have to sit through it to get their food. They're more likely to take the teaching to heart if the food comes first and they can leave right after.
exactly!

Not much different than when I was young and didnt feel like going and my folks forced me.

Actually, it's quite different unless you personally sired the world's poor.

Ouch. That's (unintentionally) a little uncomfortable for my American conscience.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #281 on: July 08, 2014, 06:12:12 PM »
There is a difference between offering them service when you primarily came to teach the word of God, and offering them service by first requiring them to listen to the word of God.  If people come and listen, off the cuff, you can ask someone to quickly surprise the guests with food.  It's all about intentions.  I would say, if you want to do both, give the food and then the teachings.  If they stay, it's up to them.

Also worth noting that they're likely to resent and ignore the teaching if they have to sit through it to get their food. They're more likely to take the teaching to heart if the food comes first and they can leave right after.
exactly!

Not much different than when I was young and didnt feel like going and my folks forced me.

When 10-year olds can vote, hold political office, or become surgeons, then let me know how much similar it was for you.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #282 on: July 10, 2014, 04:42:53 PM »
There are many other grown up examples. Many people are helped by friends who force them to get help for problems . Also AA/NA teaches the Lords prayer to all

There are also interventions that force people to seek help, but they have to face their problem too. They can choose to embrace it or not.

Many laws are now in effect that give counseling for lawbreakers, from speeding to drugs and anger management, these have positive effects, I was helped by some even though I did not like it at first. You decide if you want help, but forcing it can work wonders for those who are needy.

No one is being forced to do anything except sit through a short 30  minute service, many lives have been changed by that too, also they do help those who cannot attend and are in need.

There is only one other place in the city and they are small and have limited hours, the other is the Baptist church and he will help at any time that he is there, and he lives next door to the church so that is pretty much anytime.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #283 on: July 10, 2014, 04:53:18 PM »
I don't think much advantage would be gained by Baptist sermons of the kind I'm familiar with. They tend to be narrowly-focused polemics.

At any rate, the Victorian tradition of demanding the poor pretend their spiritual need is what has made them poor is obsolete and odious. When your heroes start going all St. John Chrysostom on rich diners in the governor's mansion, then you'll have my attention.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #284 on: July 10, 2014, 05:10:38 PM »
I can find fault with any man who ever lived but one named Jesus.

Besides this was supposed to be a thread for what you like, although I foresaw that this is what would happen, I still have hope that some can see through their differences.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #285 on: July 10, 2014, 05:11:57 PM »
In the spirit of love, I suggest we Orthodox post things we like about Roman Catholicism, and those Roman Catholics among us post things they like about Orthodoxy. ...
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #286 on: July 10, 2014, 05:15:42 PM »
In the spirit of love

This is the part where it went all wrong. Nothing on internet is going to happen in the spirit of love.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 05:16:02 PM by Alpo »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #287 on: July 10, 2014, 05:20:05 PM »
In the spirit of love

This is the part where it went all wrong. Nothing on internet is going to happen in the spirit of love.

*hug*
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Offline KostaC

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #288 on: July 10, 2014, 05:21:41 PM »
I can find fault with any man who ever lived but one named Jesus.

Besides this was supposed to be a thread for what you like, although I foresaw that this is what would happen, I still have hope that some can see through their differences.

What exactly are we supposed to see, though? All I see right now are two Churches with irreconcilable differences. Sure, we have similarities, and there's good in everyone who professes a belief in Christ, but what else is there to see?
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #289 on: July 10, 2014, 05:23:46 PM »
We can try to see God. "Irreconcilable differences" is true (I imagine) yet is only one truth and applies only in a particular context.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #290 on: July 10, 2014, 06:16:37 PM »
I love Icons, the Jesus Prayer, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (what I have seen of it, I have only seen televised but I want to attend one some day), and faithful devotion to Christ that I see in the Orthodox Christians I have had the pleasure of knowing.

^This
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #291 on: July 10, 2014, 06:24:56 PM »
irreconcilable differences

You've been served!
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Offline KostaC

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #292 on: July 10, 2014, 06:34:25 PM »

You've been served!

No, I haven't. Me saying "I like your incense" and them saying "I like your icons" isn't going to get us anywhere. If you think this begrudgingly-initiated, feel-good moment is going to get any Church anywhere, then I admire your optimism.

We can try to see God. "Irreconcilable differences" is true (I imagine) yet is only one truth and applies only in a particular context.

That's the number of truths there generally are, sir; if we had more than one truth for any given situation, how is that still truth?
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

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Offline Papist

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #293 on: July 10, 2014, 06:36:11 PM »

You've been served!

No, I haven't. Me saying "I like your incense" and them saying "I like your icons" isn't going to get us anywhere. If you think this begrudgingly-initiated, feel-good moment is going to get any Church anywhere, then I admire your optimism.

We can try to see God. "Irreconcilable differences" is true (I imagine) yet is only one truth and applies only in a particular context.

That's the number of truths there generally are, sir; if we had more than one truth for any given situation, how is that still truth?
I don't think this thread was intended as attempt to fix the schism; rather, it was just an opportunity to take a break from all the back and forth that goes on here. Unfortunately, there are posters that don't think we need that break.
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Offline KostaC

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #294 on: July 10, 2014, 06:54:33 PM »

You've been served!

No, I haven't. Me saying "I like your incense" and them saying "I like your icons" isn't going to get us anywhere. If you think this begrudgingly-initiated, feel-good moment is going to get any Church anywhere, then I admire your optimism.

We can try to see God. "Irreconcilable differences" is true (I imagine) yet is only one truth and applies only in a particular context.

That's the number of truths there generally are, sir; if we had more than one truth for any given situation, how is that still truth?
I don't think this thread was intended as attempt to fix the schism; rather, it was just an opportunity to take a break from all the back and forth that goes on here. Unfortunately, there are posters that don't think we need that break.


Well, then I bow out. If I irked anyone here with my cynicism then I apologize.
«Μὴ μεριμνᾶτε λοιπὸν διὰ τὴν αὔριον, διὀτι ἡ αὐριανὴ ἡμέρα θὰ φροντίσῃ διὰ τὰ δικά της πράγματα. Φθάνει ἡ στεναχώρια τῆς ἡμέρας». Κατά Ματθαίον 6:34

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #295 on: July 10, 2014, 07:12:00 PM »
We can try to see God. "Irreconcilable differences" is true (I imagine) yet is only one truth and applies only in a particular context.

That's the number of truths there generally are, sir; if we had more than one truth for any given situation, how is that still truth?

Son, that's just not what I meant. Trees are tall is one thing true and the ocean is broad is another thing true, is the nature of what I meant ...

Oh and Mina's joke was divorce papers being served upon "irreconcilable differences" being cited -- one of the common bases for divorce nowadays, common enough it's proverbial ...
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 07:14:31 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #296 on: July 10, 2014, 07:15:10 PM »

You've been served!

No, I haven't. Me saying "I like your incense" and them saying "I like your icons" isn't going to get us anywhere. If you think this begrudgingly-initiated, feel-good moment is going to get any Church anywhere, then I admire your optimism.

We can try to see God. "Irreconcilable differences" is true (I imagine) yet is only one truth and applies only in a particular context.

That's the number of truths there generally are, sir; if we had more than one truth for any given situation, how is that still truth?

I was making a joke reference on the use of your terms with today's social atmosphere, but apparently that wasn't clear enough :P
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #297 on: July 11, 2014, 05:22:28 PM »
I can find fault with any man who ever lived but one named Jesus.

Besides this was supposed to be a thread for what you like, although I foresaw that this is what would happen, I still have hope that some can see through their differences.

What exactly are we supposed to see, though? All I see right now are two Churches with irreconcilable differences. Sure, we have similarities, and there's good in everyone who professes a belief in Christ, but what else is there to see?

There have been differences since the resurrection of Jesus, and while he was here with the disciples he often was driven to rebuke them, that said, He said to love and serve one another, and Love God above all else, without judgement of others, because if we have faith, we will let him judge his workers.
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Offline Irish Melkite

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #298 on: August 22, 2014, 05:09:17 AM »
To return to the premise of the thread (silly notion, I know, especially as postings to it ended about 6 weeks back, but a variety of circumstances kept me on an internet hiatus for much of the summer) ...

I suppose (no, I know) that my views are a bit different than those of many of the posting Catholics here, in that they're Latin and I'm not
I like much of the same things about Orthodoxy - both Eastern and Oriental - that I like about my Melkite Church!

:The spirituality and the liturgical reverence ...
:The iconography, particularly its diversity of presentation, from the folk art style of such as the Ethiopian iconography through the stylized Byzantine iconography, with all the variations along the way - the reverse glass iconography of the Romanians, the mosaic iconography of the Armenians, the carved bas-relief iconography of the Russians, etc ...
:The diversity of liturgical form, chant, vesture, and architecture ...
:The openness to acknowledgement and veneration of the saintliness of those, such as the OT prophets, whom the Western Church doesn't generally publicly venerate ...
:The incorporation of prayer into daily speech, as in the seasonal greetings of 'Christ Is Risen!', 'He Is Truly Risen', etc ...
:The conciliarity of hierarchical governance ...
:The unnuanced and undistanced relationship between faithful and both their clergy and hierarchy ...
:The unforced beauty inherent in the language of prayer, even in translation ...
:The enmeshing of culture, ethnicity, and faith (and the unabashed acceptance into it of those who aren't 'cradle' - though I realize that's not always or everywhere)...
:The food festivals :D
    
Many years,

Neil
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 05:11:55 AM by Irish Melkite »
"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #299 on: August 22, 2014, 07:17:35 AM »
While they've only had the reconstruction of Cisneros (15th century, IIRC; at any rate several centuries after it had been suppressed) to work with for centuries and the original manuscripts that predate that are notoriously hard to figure out due to their obscure notation, I will go to my grave defending the beauty of the Mozarabic liturgy. It can be a bit difficult to find it done right (it seems like a lot of people either think it should sound self-consciously "Arab" just because of the name, forgetting/not knowing that the liturgy itself was more or less fixed about 100 years before the Muslims invaded, or think that it should be treated as a subtype of the standard Gregorian chant, though it certainly predates that), but I don't think there's anything nicer to be found in the West, chant-wise.

The iconographic traditions in the West are quite nice, too. The real stuff (think of the art in the Book of Kells, for instance), not the later Byzantine knock-offs or hyper-realistic, fleshy, soft focus Renaissance scenes.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #300 on: August 22, 2014, 11:49:33 AM »
The iconographic traditions in the West are quite nice, too. The real stuff (think of the art in the Book of Kells, for instance), not the later Byzantine knock-offs or hyper-realistic, fleshy, soft focus Renaissance scenes.

I don't know if you're excluding it, but I really love Romanesque icons.


Offline dzheremi

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #301 on: August 22, 2014, 03:16:35 PM »
Not at all. That's beautiful. By Byzantine style knock-offs I meant things patterned after Our Lady of Czestochowa and the like -- the modern Catholic attempts at Byzantine art, some of which were showcased in the Shlock Icons thread of yore.


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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #302 on: August 22, 2014, 10:48:19 PM »
Father Henri Boulad...I listened to some of his lectures.  I thought they were very edifying.
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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #303 on: August 23, 2014, 02:29:27 PM »
Their litterateurs. Gerard Manley Hopkins, Flannery O'Connor, Thomas Merton, Dorothy Day, Graham Greene, Robert Southwell, even G.K. Chesterton can at times be a pleasure.
One hides amid pornography, angry music, television that shows the worst of mankind, misanthropic politics, an internet populace led by all the passions: and then one asks, "Where is God?"


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Offline Maria

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #304 on: August 23, 2014, 03:08:47 PM »
C.S. Lewis all the way.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
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Offline biro

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #305 on: August 23, 2014, 03:29:31 PM »
Their litterateurs. Gerard Manley Hopkins, Flannery O'Connor, Thomas Merton, Dorothy Day, Graham Greene, Robert Southwell, even G.K. Chesterton can at times be a pleasure.

Indeed!   :D

Offline The young fogey

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #306 on: August 23, 2014, 08:02:32 PM »
Irish Melkite: We fight, and fight, and fight and fight and fight, but a big amen to your post above.

dzheremi: I've never seen the Mozarabic Rite; time for a YouTube virtual field trip. Among other forms, I love the sound and image of Gregorian chant bouncing off the walls of a Romanesque church with the images you describe.
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Offline Abban of Magheranoidhe

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Re: Things you like about those schismatics
« Reply #307 on: October 17, 2014, 06:49:07 AM »
and those Roman Catholics among us post things they like about Orthodoxy

Texts of Akathists dedicated to Theotokos

St. Seraphim of Sarov (and especially his learning on acquisition of Holy Spirit)

Jesus Prayer (my first encounter with it was when reading "The way of the pilgrim")

Icons

Orthodox monasticism (which is not divided into different orders and appropriate charisms like in RCC)

Movie "Остров" (The Island)