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Author Topic: Things you like about those schismatics  (Read 5896 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 27, 2014, 03:42:53 PM »

In the spirit of love, I suggest we Orthodox post things we like about Roman Catholicism, and those Roman Catholics among us post things they like about Orthodoxy.

I like Gregorian chant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nIxNlhAD0

I also like Gothic architecture.





I also think the first three crusades were pretty swell.
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »

I like old Roman chant and Latin.
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 04:18:11 PM »

I like the variety of religious orders, charisms, and lay apostolates. No doubt Orthodoxy comprises all these emphases in a unified and harmonious fashion, but to look at them laid out separately on the RCC shelf is like gazing at wealth.
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 04:21:28 PM »

I like the variety of religious orders, charisms, and lay apostolates. No doubt Orthodoxy comprises all these emphases in a unified and harmonious fashion, but to look at them laid out separately on the RCC shelf is like gazing at wealth.

I have heard it commented by an Orthodox clergyman that Orthodoxy could do with recovering a form of monasticism that doesn't revolve purely around hesychasm, as an alternative to the hesychast life, so that's another thing.
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 04:32:22 PM »

I like the variety of religious orders, charisms, and lay apostolates. No doubt Orthodoxy comprises all these emphases in a unified and harmonious fashion, but to look at them laid out separately on the RCC shelf is like gazing at wealth.

I have heard it commented by an Orthodox clergyman that Orthodoxy could do with recovering a form of monasticism that doesn't revolve purely around hesychasm, as an alternative to the hesychast life, so that's another thing.

As a simple inquirer, I've been told Orthodox monks devote half their time to hesychasm, half to the works of mercy (pardon the RC term), and I prefer to believe it's so.
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 04:33:50 PM »

I enjoy following along with the Popes, and the Vatican issues.
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 04:46:54 PM »

That's easy. The best things about Orthodoxy: traditional liturgy and a locally based, down-home, grassroots sensibility about that traditionalism.
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 04:50:15 PM »

As a simple inquirer, I've been told Orthodox monks devote half their time to hesychasm, half to the works of mercy (pardon the RC term), and I prefer to believe it's so.

I am a recent convert, so I'm not very clued in on the matter myself. I took this particular priest's word for it, so it was perhaps unwise to comment without checking up on the matter elsewhere. His particular contention is that we ought to re-establish urban monasticism for four reasons:

1. Orthodoxy has been impoverished by the loss of alternative monastic forms.
2. Some people are called to celibate communal living but not to hesychasm.
3. Support for celibate priests in the world.
4. Enables greater work for the poor.

It's towards the end of this talk, from about 15:30.
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lifeoffaith/marriage_celibacy_and_monasticism

We're getting way off topic here, so it might be wise to start a new thread about this, although clearly neither of us are qualified to comment any further.
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 05:39:35 PM »

I like the Latin Rite; its art, music, and architecture. I also like that the Roman Catholic Church has made itself so visible in the world.
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 06:39:35 PM »

The Rosary
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2014, 06:41:20 PM »

I like the Prayer of the Hours. I also like a lot of Western religious art.
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2014, 06:48:56 PM »

With our priest's blessing, my 12-year old has been singing in a Catholic cathedral boy's choir, and they have given him a pretty darn stiff musical education. His Gymnasium was historically Jesuit - those guys rock - and they still have a few Dominican teachers.

It's easy to criticize Euro-land for its secularism, but Bavaria does still have more than a smidgen of Catholic culture, and a fair amount of Lutheranism as well. How much that means faith for each individual soul -- well, that's another question.
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« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2014, 07:04:46 PM »

The Rosary

The prayer or the beads or both? 

Anyway, my list includes the Rosary (both) but also, in no particular order:

Classical Roman liturgy (especially the Office), music, art, and architecture
Catholic schools
Western monasticism
Stations of the Cross
Eucharistic devotion
Lectio divina
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« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2014, 07:06:12 PM »

The Rosary

The prayer or the beads or both? 


Both.
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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2014, 07:08:51 PM »

Being able to play on the altar and pretend that I was reading the service book when I was a tiny lad and my father would occasionally Confess at the local RC parish real late at night and I'd tag along.
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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2014, 07:11:11 PM »

For a different type of schismatic, I stopped by a HOCNA congregation last Sunday. It wasn't my first or even second choice - I'm still travelling around the US, and I botched the directions to the Serbian congregation, who are of course best buddies with us ROCOR types.

I got to the HOCNA liturgy really late - at the end of the Cherubic Hymn - and I thought it would be diplomatic to say that I was from the Moscow Patriarchate instead of ROCOR. So they let me light a few candles, anyway.

My impression was that they were impressively reverent in a way that we sadly do not always see in every Orthodox congregation. Their Greek-style singing and the priest's Greek-style headgear were a refreshing change. But I got a weird feeling all the same. Like they were really being schismatic for the sake of being schismatic.

Sorry if any of you reading this are offended because you are HOCNA, but that was my experience.

My conversion to Orthodoxy may be eccentric, too, but at least we are in communion with two or three hundred million other people.
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2014, 08:33:43 PM »

I'm interested how many of you like the fractured nature of a Western Monasticism. I find it to be quite strange that there are so many groups and splinter groups with very slightly different "charisms." And I've never been very impressed by western monasteries I've visited. They never seem very monk-ish (not that I've been to an Orthodox Monastery to compare... I'm just talking about my preconceptions).

Anyway, to contribute to the thread, I like the delineated idea of mortal and venial sin. As an inquirer, I think I'll find it hard to get past this idea and the whole confessing mortal sins thing if I ever am able to convert fully.

Oh, I also like the minimal fasting in the West. Or the "old man" in me likes that anyway.
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2014, 09:42:08 PM »

I'm interested how many of you like the fractured nature of a Western Monasticism. I find it to be quite strange that there are so many groups and splinter groups with very slightly different "charisms." And I've never been very impressed by western monasteries I've visited. They never seem very monk-ish (not that I've been to an Orthodox Monastery to compare... I'm just talking about my preconceptions).

Anyway, to contribute to the thread, I like the delineated idea of mortal and venial sin. As an inquirer, I think I'll find it hard to get past this idea and the whole confessing mortal sins thing if I ever am able to convert fully.

Oh, I also like the minimal fasting in the West. Or the "old man" in me likes that anyway.
What do you mean by this?  Catholics don't confess mortal sins?  Huh

I like western church architecture.  At least, the old medieval stuff.  Not the new crap that seems to be going up lately.
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« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2014, 10:10:22 PM »

I'm interested how many of you like the fractured nature of a Western Monasticism. I find it to be quite strange that there are so many groups and splinter groups with very slightly different "charisms." And I've never been very impressed by western monasteries I've visited. They never seem very monk-ish (not that I've been to an Orthodox Monastery to compare... I'm just talking about my preconceptions).

Anyway, to contribute to the thread, I like the delineated idea of mortal and venial sin. As an inquirer, I think I'll find it hard to get past this idea and the whole confessing mortal sins thing if I ever am able to convert fully.

Oh, I also like the minimal fasting in the West. Or the "old man" in me likes that anyway.
What do you mean by this?  Catholics don't confess mortal sins?  Huh

I like western church architecture.  At least, the old medieval stuff.  Not the new crap that seems to be going up lately.

I mean the whole legalistic idea of sin and the delineation of sins into categories, together with the idea that one need only confess mortal sins and not venial sins.

I am a lawyer: legalism naturally appeals to me. So this sort of legalism plays right into my normal mode of thinking. That's all I was trying to convey.
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« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2014, 10:41:31 PM »

I like them because...

Catholics have more diversity in the monasticism, which is more in line with the fathers and history, and probably also much better for the overall health of monasticism and the Church.

Ireland is largely Catholic, and Scotland has a large percentage of Catholics, which is good evidence for the superior nature of that Church.

They have seminaries, theological colleges, etc. in America. That means theological libraries with lots of books in English. That means awesome.

They watched over the ancient flocks in Greece, Serbia, etc. while Byzantium was too busy playing war and politics.

Pope Francis the Great.

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« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2014, 10:46:41 PM »

I can't believe no one has mentioned the very best thing about Orthodox.
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« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2014, 10:49:41 PM »

I can't believe no one has mentioned the very best thing about Orthodox.

Gyros?
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« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2014, 11:03:45 PM »

No. It's when they become Catholic of course!

 Grin

(Okay I know that was pretty lame, but it just seemed wrong not to say it. Though you may not feel the same if you don't spend much time on CAF.)
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2014, 12:17:26 AM »

I'm interested how many of you like the fractured nature of a Western Monasticism. I find it to be quite strange that there are so many groups and splinter groups with very slightly different "charisms." And I've never been very impressed by western monasteries I've visited. They never seem very monk-ish (not that I've been to an Orthodox Monastery to compare... I'm just talking about my preconceptions).

I don't know if "Western Monasticism" is all that fractured.  Strictly speaking, not all "religious orders" are "monastic", but if you take the major monastic orders, to me they seem like variations on the same theme.  They are different organisations, have slightly different emphases, different habits, etc., but they're all basically operating on the Rule of St Benedict or something rather close to it in spirit.  In that sense, I don't really see it as so different in theory from our monasteries.  They aren't organised like Western "orders", but all monasteries have their own particular quality, specialised rules beyond what is common to all, and there are other differences as well.  We wouldn't really call this "fractured", though. 

I would consider the other types of religious life (canons, mendicants, religious brothers and sisters) a bit more carefully.  Some seem to me like acceptable variations of monastic life, while others are not exactly what I'd call monasticism, even if they do good work.  And, to be fair to them, perhaps they are not trying to be monastic. 

I've been to a fair number of Orthodox monasteries, and some of those haven't seemed very "monastic" to me at first glance.  I think we have preconceptions of what monasticism is, but the reality is often different.  Because of this, I'm not alarmed if Western monasticism doesn't match my preconceptions.  Also, Western tradition and discipline has always been different from that of the East, so it's unrealistic to expect a Western monastery to be in all respects like one of ours.  I suspect many of our monks would probably out-monk the average Benedictine, but probably couldn't hack it in a Charterhouse more than a few days. 
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 12:24:57 AM »

I think the big exception to what you're outlining is Francis of Assisi. In some ways he was more like his unlucky peer Jan Hus than like St. Benedict. At any rate, his ideas were extraordinary then and now. In a few generations, however, Franciscans had become conventual (and conventional).

Some of the coherent lay organizations are much more interesting.
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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2014, 12:26:55 AM »

... Is this a good place to bring up the Basiliad? I've been aching to get some Orthodox opinions (and RCC ones wouldn't hurt) on St. Basil's "city of poor" and what impact, if any, it has had since, and if it can be any example in our time.
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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2014, 12:28:41 AM »

I'm interested how many of you like the fractured nature of a Western Monasticism. I find it to be quite strange that there are so many groups and splinter groups with very slightly different "charisms." And I've never been very impressed by western monasteries I've visited. They never seem very monk-ish (not that I've been to an Orthodox Monastery to compare... I'm just talking about my preconceptions).

I don't know if "Western Monasticism" is all that fractured.  Strictly speaking, not all "religious orders" are "monastic", but if you take the major monastic orders, to me they seem like variations on the same theme.  They are different organisations, have slightly different emphases, different habits, etc., but they're all basically operating on the Rule of St Benedict or something rather close to it in spirit.  In that sense, I don't really see it as so different in theory from our monasteries.  They aren't organised like Western "orders", but all monasteries have their own particular quality, specialised rules beyond what is common to all, and there are other differences as well.  We wouldn't really call this "fractured", though. 

I would consider the other types of religious life (canons, mendicants, religious brothers and sisters) a bit more carefully.  Some seem to me like acceptable variations of monastic life, while others are not exactly what I'd call monasticism, even if they do good work.  And, to be fair to them, perhaps they are not trying to be monastic. 

I've been to a fair number of Orthodox monasteries, and some of those haven't seemed very "monastic" to me at first glance.  I think we have preconceptions of what monasticism is, but the reality is often different.  Because of this, I'm not alarmed if Western monasticism doesn't match my preconceptions.  Also, Western tradition and discipline has always been different from that of the East, so it's unrealistic to expect a Western monastery to be in all respects like one of ours.  I suspect many of our monks would probably out-monk the average Benedictine, but probably couldn't hack it in a Charterhouse more than a few days. 

That's fair enough.  I've been many times to a Trappist monastery and once to a Benedictine monastery, which are two variations on the same theme, if you will.  The Trappists were quite cloistered and contemplative, but their having cell phones was quite unexpected.  The Benedictines were also running a school (I was there to lead a class on ethics), so their charism was obviously quite different.  

I don't see either as negative, but it was not what I (as a former atheist) would have expected from "monasticism."  I would love to go to an Orthodox monastery, and I intend to do so before any potential conversion to make sure I have an accurate understanding of the reality before any potential conversion.

By fractured, I just mean that there are many different variations on, perhaps, the same theme.  There are a tremendous number of orders in Roman Catholicism, but you might be right that those are a different type of order than the strictly monastic.  Anyway, I guess it is in the eye of the beholder whether the Benedictines, Dominicans, Franciscans, etc. are very different.  It seems to me that they are.  But, it might not seem that way to others.  I do know that they are not all living according to the Rule of St. Benedict, which no order within Western Monasticism seems to keep strictly.

Anyway, I do like the Carthusians.  They seem pretty cool to me judging from that movie called something like "Into Great Silence".
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2014, 01:19:29 AM »

I don't know if "Western Monasticism" is all that fractured.  Strictly speaking, not all "religious orders" are "monastic", but if you take the major monastic orders, to me they seem like variations on the same theme.  They are different organisations, have slightly different emphases, different habits, etc., but they're all basically operating on the Rule of St Benedict or something rather close to it in spirit.  In that sense, I don't really see it as so different in theory from our monasteries.  They aren't organised like Western "orders", but all monasteries have their own particular quality, specialised rules beyond what is common to all, and there are other differences as well.  We wouldn't really call this "fractured", though. 

I would consider the other types of religious life (canons, mendicants, religious brothers and sisters) a bit more carefully.  Some seem to me like acceptable variations of monastic life, while others are not exactly what I'd call monasticism, even if they do good work.  And, to be fair to them, perhaps they are not trying to be monastic. 

I've been to a fair number of Orthodox monasteries, and some of those haven't seemed very "monastic" to me at first glance.  I think we have preconceptions of what monasticism is, but the reality is often different.  Because of this, I'm not alarmed if Western monasticism doesn't match my preconceptions.  Also, Western tradition and discipline has always been different from that of the East, so it's unrealistic to expect a Western monastery to be in all respects like one of ours.  I suspect many of our monks would probably out-monk the average Benedictine, but probably couldn't hack it in a Charterhouse more than a few days.

There do seem to be some issues in RC religious orders with odd degrees of variation. The Jesuits and their seeming historical abandonment of the Hours, for example, is striking. Similarly, many female religious orders (even called "nuns") can vary from "plain clothes" in-the-world (one kind of Sisters of the Precious Blood comes to mind, a candidate of whose I've spoken to), to convent-living-but-still-wacky, to full-habit and cloistered. And in my experience, Marianists, while living in a community, are respectably education-oriented but otherwise seem rather strange (and wildly "progressive").

Speaking of "orders" and stuff, I recently came across this article about Russian Sisters of Mercy, famous for St. Elizabeth the New Martyr.



Quote
One of the most famous followers of this moment in Russia was the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna, who in 1909 founded the Martha and Mary Convent of Mercy, which resembled a monastic house in its rule of life. A hospital, an outpatient clinic, a pharmacy, a home for orphaned girls, a Sunday school, a library, and a soup kitchen were all constructed in the convent. The Grand Duchess herself, along with her pupils, spent sleepless nights as a nurse at the beds of the seriously ill, assisted at operations, and visited Moscow slums. The sisters lived in the religious community itself, where they followed a monastic way of life without themselves being nuns. They gave temporary vows (for one, three, or six years, and only later for life) and had the option of leaving the convent to get married or of being tonsured directly to the small schema.

Reminds me of a Western religious order (not in a bad way) with its emphasis on healthcare, education, and charity. Also the fact that it's sort of like a mixture between a monastic religious order and a lay order/third order.
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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2014, 01:25:30 AM »

I like the Carthusian order.  And Trappists make some really good treats, including beer, fudge, and jams.
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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2014, 01:31:12 AM »

Capuchin Franciscans are neat-o:

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« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2014, 01:34:44 AM »

I'm interested how many of you like the fractured nature of a Western Monasticism. I find it to be quite strange that there are so many groups and splinter groups with very slightly different "charisms." And I've never been very impressed by western monasteries I've visited. They never seem very monk-ish (not that I've been to an Orthodox Monastery to compare... I'm just talking about my preconceptions).
"Into Great Silence" is a great piece demonstrating serious cloistered Carthusian monastic life.

How about this?

http://youtu.be/zcOTkbhlEIg
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« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2014, 02:57:38 AM »

I don't agree the fractured monasticism in the west is really a good thing. And when you research most of them, it seems a majority of these fractures is simply them trying to reobtain what has been lost over the years, as if each order eventually lost its original intent and a new order was founded to combat this.
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« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2014, 06:57:54 AM »

I can't believe no one has mentioned the very best thing about Orthodox.
Their iconography. Hands down on both sides of the schism.

I'm also  very impressed with some of their chant as well.

This Russian/Slavic one is classic;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7vvPXz-Qes
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2014, 07:35:48 AM »

In the spirit of love, I suggest we Orthodox post things we like about Roman Catholicism, and those Roman Catholics among us post things they like about Orthodoxy.

I like Gregorian chant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5nIxNlhAD0

I also like Gothic architecture.





I also think the first three crusades were pretty swell.

Reverence of the liturgy by the Orthodox. Something seriously lacking in the CC today.
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2014, 08:39:33 AM »

Traditionalist Catholic aesthetics in general. Architecture, iconography, Latin, smells and bells. Pretty much everuthing.
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« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2014, 10:19:31 AM »

Traditionalist Catholic aesthetics in general. Architecture, iconography, Latin, smells and bells. Pretty much everuthing.

Ahem. With the exception of the ubiquitous Our Lady of Perpetual Help, RC religious art is not iconography in form or function.  police
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« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2014, 10:28:43 AM »

Father Zosima in Brothers Karamazov had at least one Catholic image in his cell, and Dostoevsky wrote with great feeling about a painting of Christ in Switzerland that showed Him, as my German friends would say, while He was "totally Death".

He is the resurrection and the life.
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« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2014, 10:33:42 AM »

Traditionalist Catholic aesthetics in general. Architecture, iconography, Latin, smells and bells. Pretty much everuthing.

Ahem. With the exception of the ubiquitous Our Lady of Perpetual Help, RC religious art is not iconography in form or function.  police

Here we go again... I think you know perfectly well what I meant. No need for nitpicking.
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« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2014, 10:46:15 AM »

San Gennaro's Day! Let's eat!  Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2014, 11:11:15 AM »

Since I'm still technically Catholic though I wish to convert to Orthodoxy, I would post what I like about both

Orthodoxy:
1)Icons
2)Divine Liturgy
3)It's approach to theology
4)Hymns to the Theotokos
5)The focus on mysticism
6)Emphasis on Libertarian Free Will
7)Incense

Catholicism:
1)Rosary
2)Intellectual and philosophical tradition
3)It's institutions of education
4)Catholic Social Teaching
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« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2014, 11:24:40 AM »

...

Speaking of "orders" and stuff, I recently came across this article about Russian Sisters of Mercy, famous for St. Elizabeth the New Martyr.



Quote
One of the most famous followers of this moment in Russia was the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna, who in 1909 founded the Martha and Mary Convent of Mercy, which resembled a monastic house in its rule of life. A hospital, an outpatient clinic, a pharmacy, a home for orphaned girls, a Sunday school, a library, and a soup kitchen were all constructed in the convent. The Grand Duchess herself, along with her pupils, spent sleepless nights as a nurse at the beds of the seriously ill, assisted at operations, and visited Moscow slums. The sisters lived in the religious community itself, where they followed a monastic way of life without themselves being nuns. They gave temporary vows (for one, three, or six years, and only later for life) and had the option of leaving the convent to get married or of being tonsured directly to the small schema.

Reminds me of a Western religious order (not in a bad way) with its emphasis on healthcare, education, and charity. Also the fact that it's sort of like a mixture between a monastic religious order and a lay order/third order.

I like it.
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« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2014, 11:42:47 AM »

I like everything about the Orthodox except their rejection of the Pope...kind of a deal breaker though  Embarrassed

The mystical union of Carmelite theology is probably the closest thing to Orthodox theosis we have in the West. No surprise though because they started out on Mt. Carmel.

edit: Oh, forgot to mention: St. Photius...I am no fan of his either.
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« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2014, 12:02:26 PM »

I think the big exception to what you're outlining is Francis of Assisi.

The conventional Orthodox opinion seems to be that Francis, John of the Cross, Teresa of Ávila and especially, IMO, Thérèse of Lisieux were subject to big time prelest. Maybe it takes one to know one; I try to take my anti-prelest medication every week without over-doing it.
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« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2014, 12:03:21 PM »

The fact that when you say your Roman Catholic, people know what you mean, as opposed to, Orthodox, what's that ? that I get from almost everyone.
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« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2014, 12:11:49 PM »

I think the big exception to what you're outlining is Francis of Assisi.

The conventional Orthodox opinion seems to be that Francis, John of the Cross, Teresa of Ávila and especially, IMO, Thérèse of Lisieux were subject to big time prelest. Maybe it takes one to know one; I try to take my anti-prelest medication every week without over-doing it.

Hence why they go down as things we love about Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy. Wink Tho it's a little rich to see John of the Cross condemned, seeing as (in my opinion) he just plagiarized the Eastern mystics ...
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