Author Topic: Finnish  (Read 8448 times)

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Offline Cyrillic

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Finnish
« on: June 27, 2014, 07:56:28 AM »
Alpo, miksi suomalainen niin monta vokaalit?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 08:07:25 AM »
"Miksi Suomen kielessä on niin monta vokaalia?" :police:

We like vowels. The languages with too many consonants sound too harsh to our ears. How so? Are you learning Finnish? I wouldn't be anyhow suprised since you seem to already speak every other European language. :P
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 08:11:24 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 08:21:27 AM »
"Miksi Suomen kielessä on niin monta vokaalia?" :police:

I'll never trust Google Translate again.

We like vowels. The languages with too many consonants sound too harsh to our ears. How so?

I was just wondering. An acquintance of mine is Finnish. All those consonants make Finnish sound very mysterious. Apparently Elvish in Lord of the Rings is based on Finnish.

Are you learning Finnish? I wouldn't be anyhow suprised since you seem to already speak every other European language. :P

Nah, that would be masochistic. Finnish is very difficult, almost impossible, to learn, or so I heard.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 08:21:40 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 09:53:45 AM »
Mr. Google doesn't understand languages bases on cases instead of prepositions. That's why it fails with Finnish. No big deal though since everybody will understand you even if couldn't use cases properly.

Finns tend to overplay the difficulty of our language. Fenno-Ugric languages are different from other European languages but otherwise I don't think it's that complicated. We use Latin alphabets and pronunciation is fairly simple.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:07:57 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Orest

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 10:08:15 AM »
Mr. Google doesn't understsnd languages bases on cases instead of prepositions. That's why it fails with Finnish. No big deal though since everybody will understand you eben if couldn't use cases properly.

Finns tend to overplay the difficulty of our language. Fenno-Ugric languages are different from other European languages but otherwise I don't think it's that complicated. We use Latin alphabets and pronunciation is fairly simple.
Is it true that the accent is always on the first syllable?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 10:09:07 AM »
Yes. Although some dialects might have differing opinions.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 10:11:14 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Orest

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 04:17:31 PM »
"Miksi Suomen kielessä on niin monta vokaalia?" :police:

We like vowels. The languages with too many consonants sound too harsh to our ears. How so? Are you learning Finnish? I wouldn't be anyhow suprised since you seem to already speak every other European language. :P
You not only like vowels but also cases I believe.  How many cases?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 04:26:43 PM »
IIRC some article that I read some time ago said that we have 14 cases. I must admit I hated cases at school. I never learnt which one is which. How should I know. I just speak the language. :P

Anyway, this is probably why I still can't use English prepositions properly. Finns have very little prepositions and we mostly use cases instead of the prepositions so we need to learn completely different linguistic logic.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 04:32:06 PM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Orest

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2014, 12:33:17 PM »
OK, that explains why you have so many cases.  In Ukrainian for example the instrumental case is used for some prepositions in English and also the dative case.

Offline WPM

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2014, 01:21:36 PM »
? ... Nevermind
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 01:22:10 PM by WPM »
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2014, 01:32:24 PM »
Kai tuokin on jonkinlainen saavutus, että kirjoittaa yli 2000 viestiä, joista kukaan ei tajua yhtään mitään...
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline hecma925

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2020, 01:02:20 PM »
St. John of Valaam

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2020, 02:56:27 AM »
Finnish is very difficult, almost impossible, to learn, or so I heard.

As someone who had to learn Finnish after moving to Finland, maybe I should chime in on the supposed difficulty of the task. The grammar can be a bit tricky at times, but vocabulary is the biggest problem at the beginning since a large number of words have no noticeable English/French/German cognate forms, though vocabulary learning becomes easier once you discover the quite logical patterns on which new words are built. But the real difficulty for learning Finnish in Finland is that most educated Finns know English or some other major European language better than beginning learners know Finnish. So there are few opportunities to practice what you're learning since halting conversations almost invariably switch out of Finnish.

It's perhaps for these reasons that several of the Eritrean, Iraqi and Somali refugees I've run into picked up fairly fluent Finnish more quickly than most of my British, American and Canadian colleagues/friends and I did. Not that my own Finnish is anywhere near native fluency.

Offline Alpo2

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2020, 05:30:18 AM »
St. John of Valaam



I like him. He's kind of antithesis of OC.net. Very normal, down to Earth and without any kind of angry politics.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 05:30:33 AM by Alpo2 »

Offline hecma925

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2020, 01:05:03 PM »
Google translate (for the scroll): "Lord at those stages which thou knowest to save us sinners."

Needs a little cleaning up, but I get the gist.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Alpo2

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2020, 02:58:39 PM »
^That's actually fairly accurate translation if you go by word to word. He seemed to emphasize on accepting whatever may come and just trust God no matter whatever happens. Probably because he had to change countries and monasteries several times during his life.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2020, 12:25:13 AM »
Finnish is very difficult, almost impossible, to learn, or so I heard.

As someone who had to learn Finnish after moving to Finland, maybe I should chime in on the supposed difficulty of the task. The grammar can be a bit tricky at times, but vocabulary is the biggest problem at the beginning since a large number of words have no noticeable English/French/German cognate forms, though vocabulary learning becomes easier once you discover the quite logical patterns on which new words are built. But the real difficulty for learning Finnish in Finland is that most educated Finns know English or some other major European language better than beginning learners know Finnish. So there are few opportunities to practice what you're learning since halting conversations almost invariably switch out of Finnish.

It's perhaps for these reasons that several of the Eritrean, Iraqi and Somali refugees I've run into picked up fairly fluent Finnish more quickly than most of my British, American and Canadian colleagues/friends and I did. Not that my own Finnish is anywhere near native fluency.
That's an actual problem in Germany too, it was so frustrating because I really wanted to practice it. So I just made up my own bizarre accent plus slang from videos of Bavarians speaking I had seen (I was pretty far from Bavaria and I had read there's huge diversity of dialects) and people almost invariably spoke to me back in German. I guess it was convincing?

I'm just back from Argentina and Uruguay, I managed to speak Spanish in Argentina everytime, but in Uruguay some people tried to speak to me in Portuguese since they heard my relatives (and me with them) speaking in Portuguese. Which was bad, because their Portuguese is insufferable and my Spanish is fine. Some cabby in Argentina even thought I was Paraguayan. Which is weird, since I have no clue how Paraguayans speak and I'm white. I definitely came back with a Río de la Plata accent, though...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 12:30:15 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpo2

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2020, 04:53:40 AM »
That's an actual problem in Germany too

Depends on the region I guess. When I visited Bamberg and neighboring areas I got answered in German when I spoke English. I don't know whether they've gotten fed up with tourists or was it just Bavarians being Bavarians.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2020, 04:54:19 AM by Alpo2 »

Offline sestir

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2020, 10:43:48 AM »
Does Finnish concatenate words such that the first has and retains a case-ending?
firstwordstemcasesecondwordstemsomeothercase

For example, would it be possible to form a word like koiraatalo in the sense of 'kennel'(a small cottage for a dog in the garden)?

Like Swedish kyrkogårdsgång 'churchyard path' where the first part is fossilized ablative, the second genitive and the whole word nominative.
And if you do, which are the most useful cases for the first part?

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2020, 08:38:20 AM »
Does Finnish concatenate words such that the first has and retains a case-ending?
firstwordstemcasesecondwordstemsomeothercase

For example, would it be possible to form a word like koiraatalo in the sense of 'kennel'(a small cottage for a dog in the garden)?

Like Swedish kyrkogårdsgång 'churchyard path' where the first part is fossilized ablative, the second genitive and the whole word nominative.
And if you do, which are the most useful cases for the first part?

Alpo2 will know better than me, but while waiting: Finnish has compound words built on the first stem in the nominative (dictionary) case and nouns built on the genitive/accusative case:
rautatieasema 'railroad/way station' rauta(nom.)+tie(nom)+asema(nom) iron+road+station
kahvinkeitin 'coffee maker' kahvi=n(gen)+keit=in(nom) coffee=gen/acc+cook=thing that does
(but kahvimylly 'coffee grinder' kahvi(nom)+mylly(nom) coffee(nom)+mill(nom) -- so there's little logic to it)

Of course a fair number of Finnish compounds are calques/loan translations based Swedish because Swedish was once the main language of administration and education in Finland:
Fi aasinsilta aasi=n+silta ass=gen+bridge < Sw åsnebrygga '(more or less) non-logical link between unrelated topics'
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 08:42:42 AM by FinnJames »

Offline sestir

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2020, 10:36:05 AM »
Thanks great!

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2020, 12:29:02 AM »
That's an actual problem in Germany too

Depends on the region I guess. When I visited Bamberg and neighboring areas I got answered in German when I spoke English. I don't know whether they've gotten fed up with tourists or was it just Bavarians being Bavarians.
lol! I was mostly in Berlin.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline WPM

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2020, 01:15:52 AM »
Yes, I would like to learn German or Finnish.
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Offline Alpo2

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2020, 02:22:18 AM »
Alpo2 will know better than me

Well I wouldn't be so sure of that. I never learnt Finnish grammar properly and usually operate by thinking whether something sounds right. As for this case "there's little logic to it" sounds about right. I wonder whether variation is due to loan words from Swedish and/or Russian or some historical variation between different dialects. Standardized Finnish is relatively young language and I'm thinking there might be a bit larger gap between colloquial and "official" Finnish than in some other languages.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2020, 07:00:25 AM »
Alpo2 will know better than me

Well I wouldn't be so sure of that. I never learnt Finnish grammar properly and usually operate by thinking whether something sounds right. As for this case "there's little logic to it" sounds about right. I wonder whether variation is due to loan words from Swedish and/or Russian or some historical variation between different dialects. Standardized Finnish is relatively young language and I'm thinking there might be a bit larger gap between colloquial and "official" Finnish than in some other languages.
IDK much about Finnish, but the vast majority of European languages have huge gaps between local forms and official standards, since expansion of the standard language is recent. There are some exceptions, though. Portuguese and Spanish get dialectal variation much milder due to bottlenecking (both come from relatively recent and small populations that expanded). Some claim the same for Russian, but IDK if it's true. The same might be said of French, but for some reason varieties that might be called French dialects if put under the same criteria used for other European languages (like Picard or Bourguignon) are consistently described as separate languages, so maybe the French are cheating.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpo2

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2020, 01:53:15 PM »
^I might be ignorant on various languages but I'm thinking of something like, say, omitting half of the word or combining pronouns and verbs in colloquial language.

Here is some random Italian polyglot offering examples.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2020, 10:36:46 PM »
^I might be ignorant on various languages but I'm thinking of something like, say, omitting half of the word or combining pronouns and verbs in colloquial language.

Here is some random Italian polyglot offering examples.
Yeah, this sounds pretty crazy. But some said dialects of other languages can be pretty unrecognisable, too, I can't compare anyway.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Alpo2

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« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:18:33 AM by Alpo2 »

Offline hecma925

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2020, 07:21:31 PM »
Beautiful church.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline Alpo2

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2020, 03:28:23 AM »
Beautiful church.

Thank you Tsar Alexander II. Built when our hearts still belonged to Holy Russia.

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Re: Finnish
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2020, 03:42:38 AM »
Hearts, minds, land, and blood.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"