Author Topic: church award to the main communist  (Read 20072 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,496
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2014, 12:47:15 AM »

St. Eugene Rodionov, pray for us!

Umm, I don't think he's been officially glorified as a saint yet, so painting icons of him with a halo is a bit premature.  ;)

Quote
Evgeny was officially declared a Saint on August 20, 2002. A Church in his name was built in Hankala, near Groziniy. It is the only Orthodox Church in Chechnya.

http://facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-martyr-evgeny-rodionov-of-chechnya.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/05/saint-evgeny-rodionov-new-martyr-of.html

I personally heard him commemorated during the reading of the Synaxarion at Matins in a Greek monastery on 23 May. 

To my knowledge, he has not been glorified by any Orthodox synod, though popular devotion to him is widespread and strong. It's quite possible he might be glorified at some later stage.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,825
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2014, 12:51:51 AM »
Quote
Evgeny was officially declared a Saint on August 20, 2002. A Church in his name was built in Hankala, near Groziniy. It is the only Orthodox Church in Chechnya.

http://facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-martyr-evgeny-rodionov-of-chechnya.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/05/saint-evgeny-rodionov-new-martyr-of.html

I personally heard him commemorated during the reading of the Synaxarion at Matins in a Greek monastery on 23 May. 

Where were you two and a half years ago when I needed you? If you'd been there for me, my baptismal name would've been Eugene instead. ;)

But seriously, he was the person whose name I absolutely wanted to take, but I ultimately backed down because some ROCOR monks advised against it. Oh well, I still have an printed icon of him that my godfather mounted for me.

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,825
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2014, 01:04:39 AM »
To my knowledge, he has not been glorified by any Orthodox synod, though popular devotion to him is widespread and strong. It's quite possible he might be glorified at some later stage.

Can a bishop not glorify, or otherwise allow the official public veneration of, a saint within his diocese? Are there any traditions (EO or otherwise) that allow for glorification apart from s Synodal resolution?

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,496
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2014, 01:29:36 AM »
As far as I know, saints can only be proclaimed as such, even for the purposes of local veneration, by a synod, not a single bishop. The days of the proclamation of sainthood by popular acclaim alone died out many centuries ago.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,188
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2014, 02:56:06 AM »
Quote
Evgeny was officially declared a Saint on August 20, 2002. A Church in his name was built in Hankala, near Groziniy. It is the only Orthodox Church in Chechnya.

http://facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-martyr-evgeny-rodionov-of-chechnya.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/05/saint-evgeny-rodionov-new-martyr-of.html

I personally heard him commemorated during the reading of the Synaxarion at Matins in a Greek monastery on 23 May. 

Where were you two and a half years ago when I needed you? If you'd been there for me, my baptismal name would've been Eugene instead. ;)

But seriously, he was the person whose name I absolutely wanted to take, but I ultimately backed down because some ROCOR monks advised against it. Oh well, I still have an printed icon of him that my godfather mounted for me.


Why did they advise against it?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2014, 03:11:37 AM »
You haters of the Ecumenical Patriarch are incredible. You take a thread about the Russian Patriarch honoring his nation's leading Communist, for "protecting traditional moral values," and turn it into another attack upon the Ecumenical Patriarch.
You don't think there's an analogy between one patriarch awarding a high honor to the leader of a political party that's directly responsible for murdering millions of Christians and another patriarch honoring a Muslim with the gift of a book that is itself responsible for sanctioning the murder of millions of Christians? Why are you so quick to blast the former but defend the latter? Why are you trying so hard to dissociate the two?

Because they are WHOLLY UNRELATED and not analogous acts. The topic of the thread is "Church award to the main communist."

And yet you can't handle any criticism of the Ecumenical Patriarch(ate) even in threads about him/it.  You pull this same stuff there too. 

I find it remarkable that all you can do is cry foul and accuse people of hatred, but you can't or won't respond to any of the substantial points I made or questions I asked.

I truly am not aware of "the substantial points" you have made that I've ignored; I recall some back and forth about practices of the Ecumenical Patriarch in connection with his attendance at ecumenical and/or Roman Catholic services, which I didn't have the knowledge to which to reply. Perhaps, if you might mention what we were debating, I'll see what I can come up with.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2014, 03:44:20 AM »
You haters of the Ecumenical Patriarch are incredible. You take a thread about the Russian Patriarch honoring his nation's leading Communist, for "protecting traditional moral values," and turn it into another attack upon the Ecumenical Patriarch.
You don't think there's an analogy between one patriarch awarding a high honor to the leader of a political party that's directly responsible for murdering millions of Christians and another patriarch honoring a Muslim with the gift of a book that is itself responsible for sanctioning the murder of millions of Christians? Why are you so quick to blast the former but defend the latter? Why are you trying so hard to dissociate the two?

Because they are WHOLLY UNRELATED and not analogous acts. The topic of the thread is "Church award to the main communist."
Could it be that you see them as WHOLLY UNRELATED because you're under the jurisdiction of the EP and feel the need to defend your hierarch? Some people here see an analogy between one patriarch's gift to one person and another patriarch's gift to another. I agree with them that there is a connection worthy of discussion, a connection to which you appear to have blinded yourself by your allegiance to the EP.

Perhaps you have drawn a valid analogy.

I do not feel necessarily compelled to defend the hierarchs within the jurisdiction in which I happen to belong because I perceive myself to be an Eastern Orthodox Christian whose interest in the Patriarchate of Serbia is as much of interest as the Ecumenical Patriarchate. I've openly criticized the Patriarchate of Jerusalem's intrusion on the Patriarchate of Antioch's territory. There are hierarchs within the Ecumenical Patriarchate whom I would criticize. Metropolitan Elpidophoros of Proussa's bizarre letter about "first without equals" played right into the hands of the haters and should be retracted in the interest of harmony among the Holy Orthodox Churches. But, you're right, the vile garbage I read on this and other fora in connection with the person and office of Patriarch Bartholomew, Eastern Orthodox Christianity's "First Among Equals," during his joint commemoration with Pope Francis of the 1964 encounter of Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI, has piqued my senses in defense of his position in the church. Herein we have a thread about questioned actions of the Patriarchate of Moscow, and all the haters can think of is to jump in, seeing it as another opportunity to slam the Ecumenical Patriarch. That's my problem. While I will be the first to articulate Roman Catholic "innovations" that keep us separated churches, those discussions of last May have compelled me also to reply to those here who despise the Pope so, who condemn him and his church. There are innocent people, descent faithful people, Orthodox and heterodox, who are not engaged in the Church's polemics, who read the garbage and it thus, at least, calls for the position opposite to be put forth.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 03:49:52 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2014, 04:26:21 AM »
> I don't think he's been officially glorified as a saint yet, so painting icons of him with a halo is a bit premature.

In Church the order is the opposite. At first people venerate somebody and paint his icons and pray to him. Then the official glorification follows in some cases. But a lot of saints were never ever glorified, lake saint Nicholas or most of the martyrs. The procedure of "glorification" is rather new and borrowed from Catholicism, as I heard.

Also a question to Basil 320. Probably he knows, because I have never heard about it. How does Zyuganov "protects traditional moral values"? There are other people who are known for this, but they did not get awards "Glory and Honour" from Patriarch. As for Zyuganov, he is only the puppet of Putin, the admirer of Lenin, and nothing more.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 04:27:19 AM by Alexander_Kuzmin »

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,707
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2014, 06:01:23 AM »
How does Zyuganov "protects traditional moral values"?

He hates the gays.

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2014, 06:39:02 AM »
> He hates the gays.

This hate is common in Russia. But if this is a criterion, he has not done anything remarkable in this area.

Zyuganov suggested to re-name my city St.-Petersburg back to Leningrad (as in soviet times) and also he supportes the idea to re-name Volgograd back to Stalingrad (after Stalin, as during the WWII) - probably this is his "traditionalism" that deserves Church award from Patriarch. Or is it his active support of the law that prohibits the Americans to adopt orphan children from Russia? Or is it his joy about the reconstruction of the monument to Stalin on the eve of his birthday? Or is it that he wrote that the ambassador of the USA in Livia was "killed like a dog?"

Communism is a pure evil. Not to understand it is a big mistake. It is not for "church awards", but for the new Nuremberg trials, like it was against fashism.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 06:44:03 AM by Alexander_Kuzmin »

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2014, 07:14:55 AM »
Re. Reply No. 52 @Alexander_Kuzmin

No, I do not know what "protects traditional moral values" means, I was quoting from the Patriarchate of Moscow's comments on one of the links above.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Online Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2014, 02:29:26 PM »
I truly am not aware of "the substantial points" you have made that I've ignored; I recall some back and forth about practices of the Ecumenical Patriarch in connection with his attendance at ecumenical and/or Roman Catholic services, which I didn't have the knowledge to which to reply. Perhaps, if you might mention what we were debating, I'll see what I can come up with.

Basil 320,

It's very simple, IMO, and Peter seems to have picked up on it:

You don't think there's an analogy between one patriarch awarding a high honor to the leader of a political party that's directly responsible for murdering millions of Christians and another patriarch honoring a Muslim with the gift of a book that is itself responsible for sanctioning the murder of millions of Christians? Why are you so quick to blast the former but defend the latter? Why are you trying so hard to dissociate the two?

I gratefully acknowledge our dialogue on "ecumenical liturgics" in the other thread you referred to above.  :)
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Online Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2014, 02:32:27 PM »

St. Eugene Rodionov, pray for us!

Umm, I don't think he's been officially glorified as a saint yet, so painting icons of him with a halo is a bit premature.  ;)

Quote
Evgeny was officially declared a Saint on August 20, 2002. A Church in his name was built in Hankala, near Groziniy. It is the only Orthodox Church in Chechnya.

http://facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-martyr-evgeny-rodionov-of-chechnya.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/05/saint-evgeny-rodionov-new-martyr-of.html

I personally heard him commemorated during the reading of the Synaxarion at Matins in a Greek monastery on 23 May. 

To my knowledge, he has not been glorified by any Orthodox synod, though popular devotion to him is widespread and strong. It's quite possible he might be glorified at some later stage.

So who canonised him on 20 August 2002?  Who authorised the building of a church in his name?  Or are these claims erroneous? 

In any case, I still accept "local" canonisations, and not just "synodal" canonisations.  If St Eugene's was only "local", it still seems to have been picked up outside the "Russian" sphere. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Online Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2014, 02:35:47 PM »
Where were you two and a half years ago when I needed you? If you'd been there for me, my baptismal name would've been Eugene instead. ;)

But seriously, he was the person whose name I absolutely wanted to take, but I ultimately backed down because some ROCOR monks advised against it. Oh well, I still have an printed icon of him that my godfather mounted for me.

LOL, I would've told you to pick the original St Eugene or the St Eugene picked by St Eugene Rodionov (if they are not one and the same)...heaven would know the truth, even if earth was still taking time to catch up. 

Why did your ROCOR monks advise against picking this saint for yourself? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,258
  • Faith: Finnish Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2014, 02:41:09 PM »


I guess I shouldn't comment on people's looks but this guy actually looks like a Communist. And it's not just the scarf.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,825
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2014, 04:14:02 PM »
LOL, I would've told you to pick the original St Eugene or the St Eugene picked by St Eugene Rodionov (if they are not one and the same)...heaven would know the truth, even if earth was still taking time to catch up.

I... never thought of that.

Why did your ROCOR monks advise against picking this saint for yourself?  
Why did they advise against it?

They said that it wasn't apparent that he was approved by the Moscow Patriarchate for church-wide veneration (pointing to this 2010 article), that I should choose a patron with information/icons more readily available, and that I should reconsider especially as an American since his veneration is unfortunately bound up with groups that have a strong political (i.e. nationalist/pro-Communist) agenda in Russia.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 04:14:17 PM by Nephi »

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,496
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2014, 07:39:28 PM »

St. Eugene Rodionov, pray for us!

Umm, I don't think he's been officially glorified as a saint yet, so painting icons of him with a halo is a bit premature.  ;)

Quote
Evgeny was officially declared a Saint on August 20, 2002. A Church in his name was built in Hankala, near Groziniy. It is the only Orthodox Church in Chechnya.

http://facingislam.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-martyr-evgeny-rodionov-of-chechnya.html
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/05/saint-evgeny-rodionov-new-martyr-of.html

I personally heard him commemorated during the reading of the Synaxarion at Matins in a Greek monastery on 23 May. 

To my knowledge, he has not been glorified by any Orthodox synod, though popular devotion to him is widespread and strong. It's quite possible he might be glorified at some later stage.

So who canonised him on 20 August 2002?  Who authorised the building of a church in his name?  Or are these claims erroneous? 

In any case, I still accept "local" canonisations, and not just "synodal" canonisations.  If St Eugene's was only "local", it still seems to have been picked up outside the "Russian" sphere. 

I have now looked through the various church calendars at hand for May 10/23. There is no mention at all of Eugene, other than in the St Herman's Calendar, which is surely the most comprehensive I've encountered. The entry there is at the end of the listing for that day, in italics. The listings in italics are for "recent ascetics, hierarchs and martyrs, of holy life, but not yet canonized, for whom it is appropriate to conduct requiem or memorial services", according to the compilers of the calendar.

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rakovsky

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,477
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2014, 08:20:31 PM »
The story about the martyred soldier Eugene Rodionov is that he refused to convert to Islam, unlike the other soldiers who were captured, and thus he was killed. However, isn't it true that the other soldiers captured with Eugene were killed too? But if you read the end of the story it shows that it must be true.
http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/05/saint-evgeny-rodionov-new-martyr-of.html
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2014, 10:51:58 PM »
Here is another part of that story:

http://rt.com/politics/communist-christian-russian-zyuganov-084/

Quote
“One of the principle mistakes of my predecessors was quarreling with the Russian Orthodox Church. This was categorically not a thing they should have done. They should have combined their efforts and moved forward,” Zyuganov told reporters between the sessions of the World Russian People’s Council – an international forum chaired by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill.

So, he is admitting that the Communist Party and the MP have combined their efforts and have moved forward.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 10:53:07 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2014, 01:26:49 AM »
> “One of the principle mistakes of my predecessors was quarreling with the Russian Orthodox Church." Zyuganov told reporters between the sessions of the World Russian People’s Council – an international forum chaired by the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill.

But he never suggested to accept something like this at the official level of his party. And this populist statement is TOO SMALL for the destroy that they made.

Besides they did cooperate with the official church Moscow Patriairhchate that is proved by many documents.
This is the picture wherePatriarch Pimen and a future Patriarch Alexey celebrate with the head of the Soviet Union and the head of the Communist party Leonid Brezhnev:


Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,419
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2014, 01:35:43 AM »
As far as I know, saints can only be proclaimed as such, even for the purposes of local veneration, by a synod, not a single bishop. The days of the proclamation of sainthood by popular acclaim alone died out many centuries ago.

If we can't discern saints by their posthumous relation to the faithful, surely we may be eliminating a vital means of discernment?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,106
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2014, 01:47:52 AM »
This is the picture wherePatriarch Pimen and a future Patriarch Alexey celebrate with the head of the Soviet Union and the head of the Communist party Leonid Brezhnev:



Maybe they're celebrating the fact that they weren't taken out back and shot in the back of the head.

Everyone's a big, brave new martyr on the internet.   

Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2014, 02:12:58 AM »
Maybe they're celebrating the fact that they weren't taken out back and shot in the back of the head.

No, the story was differen there.
This is about 1980, Christians were not shot in the back of the head at those times.

Offline Rambam

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 639
  • Send lawyers, guns, and money
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2014, 04:23:36 AM »
Awww. Those poor hierarchs. If only we understood how in fear for their lives they were, then we wouldn't blame them for having a little drink or two with "The Eyebrow."

Two thoughts:

1) I'd hope that a patriarch of a church has at least the courage of an opera singer. Galina Vishnevskaya told Brezhnev to shove it. Why couldn't these guys?

2) So why couldn't these guys? Because many of them were friendly with or employed by the state apparatus.*

You want to make a lot of excuses for these 'old country' jokers, but sometimes a picture of some good old boys having a friendly sip of vodka with Evil is exactly what it looks like. You go ahead and clap when your own hierarchs cave to Evil. I'm gonna go ahead and expect a bit more from mine. Okay, thanks!


* Source: Armes, Keith. "Chekists in Cassocks: The Orthodox Church and the KGB." Demokratizatsiya 1.4 (1994): 1993-1994.



This is the picture wherePatriarch Pimen and a future Patriarch Alexey celebrate with the head of the Soviet Union and the head of the Communist party Leonid Brezhnev:



Maybe they're celebrating the fact that they weren't taken out back and shot in the back of the head.

Everyone's a big, brave new martyr on the internet.   



Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2014, 05:43:32 AM »
Maybe they're celebrating the fact that they weren't taken out back and shot in the back of the head.

No, the story was differen there.
This is about 1980, Christians were not shot in the back of the head at those times.

No, the Communist Party just monitored church attendance and saw to it that people who attended church were fired from their jobs; infiltrated the clergy with KGB agents to keep up on the activities of the church and persecute those who dared speak in any manner in opposition to Communist policies; assured that those who spoke in opposition to the Communist Party's influence on government affairs were sent to the gulag; encouraged/forced the Patriarch to promote the perception that the church enjoyed freedom of worship and encouraged/forced him to publically support Soviet policies, thereby compromising his person and office among the people; taught atheism in the schools while prohibiting even private religious instruction; prohibited clergy from preaching; regulated that only a very limited number of seminarians could be trained for clerical ordination; prohibited publication of religious books and instructional materials; kept churches closed and defiled closed churches by using them as warehouses, barns, and bars, among other forms of persecution.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 05:45:24 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2014, 05:52:26 AM »
> encouraged/forced the Patriarch to promote the perception that the church enjoyed freedom of worship

Poor one!

The things that you describe mostly happened earlier, not in the times of Brezhnev. The Catacomb church was under attack, but as far as I know none of the Moscow Partiarchate bishops were arrested.

Even their saint was writting denunciation on Catacomb priests who did not want to cooperate, and it is included into his official life that was published several years ago.

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2014, 07:59:15 AM »
> encouraged/forced the Patriarch to promote the perception that the church enjoyed freedom of worship

Poor one!

The things that you describe mostly happened earlier, not in the times of Brezhnev. The Catacomb church was under attack, but as far as I know none of the Moscow Partiarchate bishops were arrested.

Even their saint was writting denunciation on Catacomb priests who did not want to cooperate, and it is included into his official life that was published several years ago.

No, the subtle persecution of the church continued under Brezhnev throughout the 1970's; (I studied it in my college days in that era). In 1980 Fr. Gleb Yakunin was convicted of some madness and prohibited from serving as a Priest. Nothing improved under the ailing puppets Andropov or Cherenko. Fr. Gleb, Fr. Nicholai Eschilman, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn, among a few others were smuggling documented reports to the West. It wasn't until 1985 when Mikhail Gorbachev became First Secretary of the Communist Party that some rationality was enabled when he allowed "glasnost" and "perestroika" that these policies began to be lessened.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:02:46 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2014, 08:01:17 AM »
> encouraged/forced the Patriarch to promote the perception that the church enjoyed freedom of worship

Poor one!

The things that you describe mostly happened earlier, not in the times of Brezhnev. The Catacomb church was under attack, but as far as I know none of the Moscow Partiarchate bishops were arrested.

Even their saint was writting denunciation on Catacomb priests who did not want to cooperate, and it is included into his official life that was published several years ago.

What "saint" was denouncing Catacomb priests? Is this official life also published in English?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2014, 08:03:40 AM »
> encouraged/forced the Patriarch to promote the perception that the church enjoyed freedom of worship

Poor one!

The things that you describe mostly happened earlier, not in the times of Brezhnev. The Catacomb church was under attack, but as far as I know none of the Moscow Partiarchate bishops were arrested.

Even their saint was writting denunciation on Catacomb priests who did not want to cooperate, and it is included into his official life that was published several years ago.

No, the subtle persecution of the church continued under Brezhnev throughout the 1970's; (I studied it in my college days in that era). In 1980 Fr. Gleb Yakunin was convicted of some madness and prohibited from serving as a Priest. Nothing improved under or Cherenkov. Fr. Gleb, Fr. Nicholai Eschilman, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn, among a few others were smuggling documented reports to the West. It wasn't until 1985 when Mikhail Gorbachev became First Secretary of the Communist Party that some rationality was enabled when he allowed "glasnost" and "perestroika" that these policies began to be lessened.

Alexander has lived in the Soviet Union and lives in Russia now.
He has some real life tales to tell about his experiences. History learned solely from books in college is questionable.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:05:01 AM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2014, 08:22:17 AM »
> encouraged/forced the Patriarch to promote the perception that the church enjoyed freedom of worship

Poor one!

The things that you describe mostly happened earlier, not in the times of Brezhnev. The Catacomb church was under attack, but as far as I know none of the Moscow Patriarchate bishops were arrested.

Even their saint was writting denunciation on Catacomb priests who did not want to cooperate, and it is included into his official life that was published several years ago.

No, the subtle persecution of the church continued under Brezhnev throughout the 1970's; (I studied it in my college days in that era). In 1980 Fr. Gleb Yakunin was convicted of some madness and prohibited from serving as a Priest. Nothing improved under or Cherenkov. Fr. Gleb, Fr. Nicholai Eschilman, and Alexander Solzhenitsyn, among a few others were smuggling documented reports to the West. It wasn't until 1985 when Mikhail Gorbachev became First Secretary of the Communist Party that some rationality was enabled when he allowed "glasnost" and "perestroika" that these policies began to be lessened.

Alexander has lived in the Soviet Union and lives in Russia now.
He has some real life tales to tell about his experiences. History learned solely from books in college is questionable.

Solzhenitsyn returned to the Russian Federation well after the Fall of Communism.

Multiple books have documentation and source documentation of what I speak. There were emigrants who would tour America with their stories of the persecution they had fled, too.

Yea, right, everything was wonderful under Brezhnev, there weren't KGB agents among the clergy, people could freely attend church and not be subject to dismissal from their employment, kids were not taught atheism in the schools, there were plenty of seminaries to staff the churches, religious publications flourished, priests preached freely in their parishes and taught the faith to young people, and adults for that matter...yea, yea. I wonder why Gorbachev bothered to initiate "Glasnost," and why did the church welcome it so?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 08:24:05 AM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2014, 08:26:46 AM »
Basil, I wonder why did you decide it about Brezhnev times. I did not write it.

Also it is a strange way to justify those patriarchs.

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2014, 08:53:12 AM »
Tobacco is originally an American product, after all ;-)

Saint Afra, pray for me, a sinner.

Tobacco and smoking is a vice Europeans and whites in the Americas acquired from the local indians. Politically incorrect to say that the "nature-loving" victimized indians are actually the source of one of the most widespread vices in human history, but it's the truth.

And no businessman, no matter how misguided their business is, is as bad as a communist. To quote C.S. Lewiss

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies(*). The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

(*) for the 20th and 21st century at least, AKA communists or their contemporary spoiled versions, liberal-progressives.

Communism should *never* be tolerated or contemporized with. It's by far the cruelest idea ever created by man. The greatest shame of Russia is that it has not held a "Nuremberg" for the crimes of the Communist Party and the KGB. Communism must be treated just like Nazism, for it has killed even more and a good case can be made that even Nazism was only possible due to Soviet collaboration with the Nazi Party in pre-WWII times. Communism is *not* just one more idea, a "misguided" good-willed ideology, a "never realized" ideal. It is the discourse of bullies and psychopaths to subjugate the innocent and manipulate the gullible and the hysterical.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2014, 09:07:15 AM »
Would say that if the news were

"Chief Rabi condecorates Nazi Party Leader

Chief Rabi of the city's Jewish community condecorates local Nazi Party leader.

"I'm kind of sorry about what other Nazis have done to Jews, although I still subscribe to the idea we should get rid of them. Just maybe not through holocaust camps" -said Nazi leader.

"See? He is kind of sorry! How unmerciful for all those who have criticized our meeting!" - stated the Chief Rabi."

In any normal circumstance that would be a Monty Python sketch, at best, for the sheer absurdity of it. Public representatives cannot act like private persons. Even though, personally, I have to consider the chance that people can change, if I speak on behalf of an entire group, I cannot act the same. The Church does not condone with Communism (or Islam, for that matter).

People who are publically acting on her name must clearly explicitily act on that, even if in their hearts they forgive certain particular persons (which they should). Having to act "in character" all the time, is part of the burden of being a representative and a leader of a group. Noone can abuse the right that comes with bearing the name of a collective body to abuse the trust that group has with the general public to endorse personal values and objectives.

That goes for churches, countries, congresses, parliaments, communities or companies. It's just Ethics 101.


I'm going to disagree vehemently with just about every one else in this thread.

Every article I have read (and every post in this thread) fails to mention what Zyuganov was being honored for. That might matter unless we are to believe every human being is simply an angel or demon through and through, and no person who has ever done anything wrong should ever be commended for doing anything right ever.

Shortcomings aside Zyuganov can be commended for continually underscoring the absolute wrongness of the anti-Christian campaigns of the former Soviet authorities; e.g. "Russia is a multi-national country. It has representatives of all the world religions, and we have always found and will find a common language with representatives of any religion. This is necessary for the strengthening of the government."

Despite his public stance many here are condemning him with regard to those anti-Christian campaigns he has, praise be to God, come to  repudiate and stand publicly against. Thank God people can change! -whether their hearts are even changed (we do not know either way) at least they have changed the horrors of yesteryear so we can live in a more peaceful world today -I'm for commending anyone who does that.

On a spiritual level if on no other level I would think prayerfully about this before praying "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" before continuing to condemn anyone, even with a legion of faults, for specifically something they now stand against. "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." -Matt 6:15

Or let's just condemn everyone for whatever evils they have done even if they on the surface at least appear to have reversed course while hoping like good Orthodox Christians will that the Son of God does not treat *us* like that on judgment day. [/rant]

For the record, lest anyone hurl accusations of bias, I'm neither Russian Orthodox nor Marxist. "Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor" -Romans 13:7.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 09:08:51 AM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2014, 05:48:30 PM »
Basil, I wonder why did you decide it about Brezhnev times. I did not write it.

Also it is a strange way to justify those patriarchs.

I studied Soviet history and the Soviet Union's "relationship" with the Orthodox Church in college, and researched many copies of original documentation in connection with it especially during the 1970's; and I interviewed Orthodox Priests and emigrants who had direct relationships within the Soviet Union at that time. Brezhnev's era continued the subtle persecution of the church consistent with the policies of the Khrushchev era. You noted that there was not the overt persecution, i.e. murders that occurred in the pre-WWII Stalin and Lenin eras, but there was suppression and subtle persecution of the church as I specified in my earlier posts, particularly Reply No. 69. I am not in any of my commentary "justifying" or criticizing the Patriarchs, or commenting about the catacomb church. You had written "the things that you describe mostly happened earlier, not in the times of Brezhnev." I was just describing somewhat how the official church was treated during the Brezhnev era. The writings of Fr. Gleb Yakunin and Fr. Nikolai Eschhilman still speak of the church's experience under Brezhnev, not revisionist history.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 05:59:57 PM by Basil 320 »
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2014, 01:45:34 AM »
OK. How many priests or bishops of the official church were killed by the powers in the times of Brezhnev? Will you be able to find at least several names?
And I can list you hundreds and hundreds of names of clergy who were killed at the times of Stalin.

But I agree that Brezhnev's years were terrible too. They were only not that dangerous as Stalins's years.

There was one bishop in Moscow Patriarchate (Germogen Golubev) who openly spoke against the powers and even he survived, he was only forced to retire.

Offline Basil 320

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,159
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2014, 02:03:36 AM »
OK. How many priests or bishops of the official church were killed by the powers in the times of Brezhnev? Will you be able to find at least several names?
And I can list you hundreds and hundreds of names of clergy who were killed at the times of Stalin.

But I agree that Brezhnev's years were terrible too. They were only not that dangerous as Stalins's years.

There was one bishop in Moscow Patriarchate (Germogen Golubev) who openly spoke against the powers and even he survived, he was only forced to retire.

Agreed. That's what I was saying.
"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2014, 12:00:01 PM »
Very good!

Offline Yurysprudentsiya

  • Private Fora
  • Archon
  • *
  • Posts: 2,737
  • God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: OCA, with a love for the UOC-USA
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2014, 01:20:18 PM »
This is the picture wherePatriarch Pimen and a future Patriarch Alexey celebrate with the head of the Soviet Union and the head of the Communist party Leonid Brezhnev:



Maybe they're celebrating the fact that they weren't taken out back and shot in the back of the head.

Everyone's a big, brave new martyr on the internet.   



This is a photograph taken at a reception in Moscow in 1977 honoring the 60th anniversary of the October Revolution. 

Cut off on the right is Rabbi Yakov Fishman, a Jewish leader in Moscow, I believe. 

I'm sure these religious leaders were told to be there for this event.  Whether they should have done so and lent this support to the regime is of course debatable but if they hadn't showed up I'm sure the consequences were clear.   

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2014, 01:34:10 PM »
Wow! They are celebrating the Soviet Revolution! I did not know this.
At least the award that Patriarch Kirill gave to Zyuganiv is consistent.

And here is a bishop of True Orthodox Church. St. Basil of Kineshma.
He looks a little different, isn't he?

« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 01:35:56 PM by Alexander_Kuzmin »

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2014, 02:21:13 PM »
Wow! They are celebrating the Soviet Revolution! I did not know this.
At least the award that Patriarch Kirill gave to Zyuganiv is consistent.

And here is a bishop of True Orthodox Church. St. Basil of Kineshma.
He looks a little different, isn't he?



Thanks for sharing.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2014, 02:24:21 PM »
OK. How many priests or bishops of the official church were killed by the powers in the times of Brezhnev? Will you be able to find at least several names?
And I can list you hundreds and hundreds of names of clergy who were killed at the times of Stalin.

But I agree that Brezhnev's years were terrible too. They were only not that dangerous as Stalins's years.

There was one bishop in Moscow Patriarchate (Germogen Golubev) who openly spoke against the powers and even he survived, he was only forced to retire.

And was he forced to retire in poverty with no place to live?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2014, 02:30:45 PM »
He was sent to live in Zhyrovichy Monastery with the permission to serve there. And he was said that if he continues to speak out, he will be forbidden to serve.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 02:36:47 PM by Alexander_Kuzmin »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2014, 03:13:40 PM »
So, they both committed a small faux pas. That does not concern me nearly as much as the possibility that they have become too imbued with power and pride to consider they could make tactless actions. Too bad there is no embedded chip in their brain, saying "hominem te memento" before they make a decision.

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2014, 03:45:47 AM »
Carl Kraeff, I did not understand your message (my Englis is not good enought and you add even more languages).
I believe that not being tactless in important for a bishop or a christian, but also there are far much more important things that should not be neglected because of tact.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,496
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: church award to the main communist
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2014, 03:50:00 AM »
Carl Kraeff, I did not understand your message (my Englis is not good enought and you add even more languages).
I believe that not being tactless in important for a bishop or a christian, but also there are far much more important things that should not be neglected because of tact.

Faux pas means false step (or mistake) in French. Hominem te memento is Latin for remember, you are a man, meaning "you're a human being, and therefore not perfect".
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 03:51:27 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?