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Author Topic: Vassula Ryden Excommunicated  (Read 61809 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 21, 2005, 06:38:03 PM »

A well meaning (but over-excitable) Roman Catholic friend has just informed me of the "messages" being received by one "Vassula Ryden", an "Orthodox" woman who claims to receive "messages" in the form of "locutions" from "Jesus" since 1985, and has published these in a series of books with the title "True Life In God". After reading some of the "Messages" on the "True Life in God" website http://www.tlig.org/ , I was very disturbed by their content. Apparently, this movement is very popular among Roman Catholics in Australia, who see it as a "divinely approved" formula of union between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.
An example of the "messages" is that of May 16th 1988:
Quote
I love you creation My entire Church will be renewed, these elements given back to you will embellish It and will perfect It, but first I will crown Peter, Peter-of-My-Lambs, I have given him this name which he will keep;

I will enter My Temple just as I had done whilst on earth and with My Belt-of-Integrity strike all those imposters, I will enter with force and overthrow all the money-worshippers

I will enter 'Jerusalem' so that the New Jerusalem can begin to see the Light, I will sweep away those blocks and open the Way, this My Vassula will be known as the Great Tribulation of My Church

I will then place into Peter's hand an iron sceptre with which he will guard My sheep, and for those who do not know and still ask themselves 'why is it that we have to have a guide?' I tell you this: have you ever seen or known of any flock of sheep without a shepherd?

I am your Heavenly Shepherd and I have chosen Peter to keep My lambs until My Return, I have given him the responsibility, so why all these disputes, why all these futile arguments?

and for all those who still do not know My Words, I tell you to read them in the Scriptures, they are to be found in the testimony of John, My disciple, I will then unite My Church and encircle you with My Arms into one fold, for today as it is you are all scattered developing too many communities, split sections, My Body you have torn apart and this CANNOT BE! I will unite you all


So apparently, it is not Christ, but "Peter" who is to rule with the iron rod, and thus unite us all........
......sigh....
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2005, 07:17:31 PM »

I believe I have watched speaches of her on videotape. She claims that Christ directs her hands to write the message. Perhaps we should keep an open mind.
If Christ really entrusted the Church to Peter, are we to ignore it?
Do you have any evidence that she is a fraud?
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2005, 11:18:44 PM »

gah. Perhaps Joseph Smith really received a revelation too. Test them by their fruits; reject this one. utterly ridiculous.
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2005, 12:14:00 AM »

I believe there is a rule in the OC that such visions are not supposed to be communicated to the public, presuming they are true, until the receivee has died. This is to prevent the guruism and self-delusions that frequently drive these "revelations."
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2005, 03:40:10 AM »

Hi All,

I am just reading about Vassula Ryden and especially the 27 Questions... I wanted some thoughts on her... what do I think, well, God, only knows the real Truth.
I pasted the questions and answers below from Ryden's site... some things, to be honest sounds odd to me... maybe my up bringing, maybe my faith, maybe my old traditions, however, her words are "different;" is a nice way of putting it. So your thoughts, please:

God Be with you all,
Hadel
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The 27 Witnessing Answers



Listed below are Vassula's own answers to the 27 Witnessing questions which she set for prospective TLIG witnesses. The original questions can be viewed here



Purity in the soul is essential. So the first step for us to do is to REPENT. True REPENTANCE burns like a fire within the soul. REPENTANCE allows the Holy Spirit to descend upon you to complete His divine action, "shattering all impurities and imperfections that confront Him... in order to prepare you for this perfect union, He needs to purify us..." During this period of REPENTANCE with tears in your eyes and with great remorse seeing what a wretch you are in front of God you start becoming a docile instrument for God. REPENTING with all your heart leads the eyes of your soul to realize your unworthiness and thus you humble yourself. One cannot call upon the Holy Spirit to invade him since the Holy Spirit shuns away from sin and will not come upon a crafty soul in dept to sin. "The humbler you get to be, the easier My Spirit will find its way in you." To conclude: REPENTANCE is the gate that leads souls from darkness into light.


We can only be transfigured by the Holy Spirit when He will find the necessary space within us and after dying to ourselves. When we die to our ego and passions and become totally detached the Holy Spirit can invade you and possess you transfiguring you so that your mind becomes the mind of Christ. "My Holy Spirit, can transfigure your soul from a desert into a garden, where I can have My rest in you. My Holy Spirit can transfigure your could into a palace, where I can be King and reign over you. My Holy Spirit can transfigure your could into a paradise where in this paradise I will be glorified."


The first two steps that the Father is asking us to take are: to become INTIMATE with Him and the second step is to put into practise the "FEAR OF THE LORD". The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom, it is the crown of Wisdom. To fear the Lord is avoidance of all evil. "Come and inherit what lasts for ever by allowing My Spirit to enlighten your mind and your body with His divine light., allowing Him to animate your soul in the intimacy we desire of you in Us..." "Come and approach Me and get to know Me and you will learn to love Me, for this you have to become intimate with Me. Nevertheless, never forget that I AM HOLY."


Jesus describes the Father as thus: "My Father is King, yet so motherly, He is Judge, yet so tender and loving, He is the Alpha and the Omega yet so meek."


We are described as His SEED but not only as His seed. He reminds us that we are of ROYAL DESCENT and that we descend from Sovereignty. "Sons and daughters! You are the offspring of the Most High! You descend from Sovereignty and Splendour! You belong to Us, you belong to heaven! You are of royal descent, you are blessed in Our Image, so allow Me to clothe you in My splendour. Open your heart and I shall save you." In other passages God reminds us that we are the bone of His Bone the flesh of His Flesh.


The Father asks from us our will and our heart and to abandon ourselves to Him so that His Will may be done in us. "Once I have your consent, My Will shall be done in you." "I do not come by force upon you with My Holy Spirit to violate your liberty, nor do I come to condemn you. I come to you out of My Mercy to give you freely the fullest knowledge of My Will."


Our Lady said: "I came to remind you all that a true apostle of God is the one who does the Will of God. To love is to do the Will of God." (Here are two beautiful passages one can choose or take both). "Love is above all. To love is to do My Will. It is your entry key to My Kingdom in heaven. If you claim you are living in Me but have no love, then you cannot say you are living in Me: a true life in Me, is to be living the same kind of life as Christ lived." It is not he who says to Me: "Lord! Lord! Who will enter into the Kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven. So speak with love and I shall hear you! Give with love and I shall know you. Pray with love and the doors of My Kingdom shall open to you to receive you! Act with love so that I may tell you one day: "You are Mine, you are seed! Come to your Father!" Another quotation: "Love is above all. TO LOVE IS TO DO MY WILL. It is your entry key to My Kingdom in Heaven."


The term to "walk with God" means when you are totally united to God and under His divine Will. "Learn that anyone of you who turns to Me with the sole desire to please Me, with all My heart, yes, with all My Heart I will grant him My favours. I will reveal My Image of Goodness so that they end their journey with Me."


The biggest service one can render God is to bring one soul back to Him. Having realized the value of each soul, you will go through fire to gain souls for God. To gain souls for God surpasses all sorts of services you could render God, for God prizes one soul more than anything else. So God asks us to evangelise: "Go and evangelise with love for Love."


The unceasing prayer is when your spirit is completely absorbed in God becoming sensitive of God's presence. In these moments you do not need anymore words to express yourself to God because all your being becomes a vivid flame enflamed with love for God. It is the contemplative prayer. Your soul will be enveloped by God and you will be permanently dwelling in God. Your soul will be thirsting for God all day long. "And I, for My part, will stir their love to long for Me, I will rouse their thirst to seek My Heart alone..."


"True Life in God" means to dwell in the love of God and in God. God's aim is to draw everyone towards Him, to Himself and in Him. The soul cannot live without God, but it takes its life from God. "Come and I shall show you, if you are willing what "True life in God" means. I tell you solemnly, that anyone who lives in love, lives in Me, your God, and I live in him."


The prayer of the heart is a simple conversation with God coming from our heart. A prayer coming from the heart vibrates with truthfulness and God hears it. "Your answer to your problems can be found in a constant prayer. Let this be your weapon. Pray with your heart; converse with God in this way. Satan flees every time you invoke God with love."


God said: "Your God desires equality of love from you". "Receive more of Me, allowing to receive more of you. My wish is to give more of Myself to you, so that you can give more of yourself to Me. I will be obtaining in this way all that belongs to Me already." "No one can ever reach on earth that height of My love....I only demand what belongs to Me already..." So the more we open ourselves to the Holy Spirit by repenting and emptying ourselves from our passions, vices, sins and iniquities, the more space we give to the Holy Spirit of love to pour Himself in us.


To be gods by participation means to become an adoptive son and daughter to the Most High. Through His divine union with us God draws us into a filial love. "I am He who brought you into a filial love with Our Divinity to lead a divine life and become another child, by adoption, of the Father." "Like a true son and daughter of God, you would become in this elevated state of grace a perfect image of the triune God and all your undertakings will be done without any flaw, since they would be divine and according to Our Mind and Our Will.


Yes we can be divinised or deified while here on earth. That does not mean that we take the nature of God but are given the image of God. "Through the Holy Communion (Holy Eucharist) I sanctify all who receive Me, deifying them to become the flesh of My Flesh, the bone of My Bone. By partaking Me, I, who am Divine, you and I become one single body, spiritually united. We become kin, for I can turn you into gods by participation; through My Divinity I deify men... have you not heard: "you too are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you." (Ps 82:6) Again, it means to take the image of God but not the nature of God.


To be deified or divinised by God means that a soul, after having gone through a purification and abandonment to God, will have the imprint of the Divine Image of God sealed in it and will become a child by grace to God. God then will be looking at His own reflection in that soul. God tells us why, He says: "Your spirit will be immersed in Our Divinity." "You are called to be transfigured in Us and be one with Us." So our new self will be dressed with Christ after having died to our old self. The Angels will say: "Look! He has Yahweh's spring in him! The Lord now can rejoice in him and gaze admiringly on His Own reflection." There is another passage where the Holy Spirit says: "I am the vivifying substance of your soul and He who brought you into a filial love with Our Divinity to LEAD A DIVINE LIFE and become another child, by adoption, of the Father."


To rule with God means to govern with God. We have to allow God to build us up to become a child of God "who" He says, "being Our offspring, as any offspring, would have the right as well to share and give its opinion. Even to govern with his Father; (for) in the tranquillity of My Breath in you, you will see things through Our Light and the way We see them....Let Me call you as well, son or daughter of the Most High and you will rule with Us." St. Paul said: "The one who is joined to God becomes one spirit with Him." 1 Co 6.:17) Another beautiful passage the Holy Spirit says to us: "I am the Sovereign Master of your soul but your Friend as well, giving you access to free speech, allowing you to express your opinion, your thoughts and your free will which I have restored to you..."


To explain the second Pentecost is to explain Ap. 21 as well. The Second Pentecost has already started and is individual. Whosoever from being spiritually dead is raised by grace and is put aflame by the Holy Spirit, for God, becoming zealous for the House of God, has already received this second Pentecost within him. It is a resurrection by the power of the Holy Spirit, a renewal and a total transformation. The Holy Spirit is like fire: "The inner power of My Church is the Holy Spirit, the Fire which enlivens you, purifies you and makes out of your spirit columns of fire, ardent braziers of love, living torches of light to proclaim without fear My Word." "There will be a second Pentecost so that My Kingdom on earth (the Church) will be restored."


The New Heavens and the New Earth is when in a metaphoric way a person himself becomes the new heavens, the new earth and the new Jerusalem, coming out from God out of heaven, like a beautiful bride all dressed for her Bridegroom. There is an entire explanation that one can make a whole conference only on that subject, given on the 3rd April 1995. Here are just a few quotations: "The New Heavens will be when My Holy Spirit will be poured out to you all from above from the highest heaven to make a heaven out of your soul so that in this New Heaven I may be glorified." "Let My Holy Spirit make a New Earth to prosper in you your soil, so that your first earth, that was the devil's property wears away. Then once again My Glory will shine in you and all the divine seeds sown in you by My Holy Spirit will sprout and grow in My Divine Light."


The greatest treasure of Jesus' Sacred Heart is the Knowledge of God, in which the treasure of intimacy follows immediately; they are almost linked in one. The treasure of knowing and understanding God is the prodigy of prodigies. We know that the most important thing in our spiritual journey is to do God's Will and walk with Him, but to do this we must be able to understand and know God. It is only through the Holy Spirit that one can know God. This treasure is obtained by grace through a holy contemplation. Quotation: "It is good to do good works for Me and follow some devotions as well as acts of love, thanksgivings and acts of reparation, but I would be greatly disappointed that you would die before having known Me. I would be greatly distressed were you to die now before having understood Me. Many of you are busy with your daily chores, which please Me, if they are done with love and they are according to My Mind, but all of this would be incomplete if you do not open to grace and acknowledge Me in My intimacy. So come and accept My familiar companionship and I, in My good pleasure, I will take you into the mysteries and the hidden secrets of Our Heart. You and Us will become inseparably united in Our Love for ever and ever."


There are many passages. I've chosen this: "The Holy Spirit will be the light of your eyes, the motive of your being, the movement of your heart, the utterance of your speech, your laughter and your joy. He will be the kingly adornment of your soul, the watchman of your spirit, He will be your brother, your sister and your faithful friend. He will be your festivity, your banquet, the hidden treasure, the pearl, your hymn to the Hymn, your amen to the Amen, the promised land and the foundation of all virtues on which He will inscribe His Holy Name."


This theme again can be extended into a whole conference. The Lord says: "To embrace Me is to embrace My Cross. In this embrace you are bathed in My Light. The way, and I would say again, the only way to a union of divine Love with Me is when you voluntarily embrace with love My Cross which you know bears its sufferings but its joys as well, which lead you where your soul would be exalted: to Calvary." One would ask, how can one bear all of this? It will be only when our soul will be overflowing with rivers of divine Love and will be thirsty to serve God and to draw as many souls to God.


The two keys that will unite the Church are humility and love. "Humility and love are the keys to unity. It is not the eloquence of speech nor the lengthy discourse that will lead them to unity. (So) bow down that you may see My Will. Lower your voice so tht you hear salvation speaking to you from the heights of Glory." Here is another passage: "Some will say: 'but we have always kept the law of the Church and obeyed it...' it is not enough to keep the law of the Church and obey it. I need humility and love and the conversion of your hearts to be the foundation of your unity."


The unity that Jesus speaks of is a spiritual unity of the heart. The Lord says: "The real Christian is the one who is inwardly a Christian, and the real Unity is and will be in the heart. Unity will not be of the letter but of the spirit." Our Lady says: "I implore my children to unite in heart and voice and rebuild My Son's primitive Church in their heart. I am saying My Son's primitive Church, since that Church was constructed on love, simplicity, humility and faith...I mean you to reconstruct a new edifice inside your heart....etc" The second part of the question, which was what is unity for you, my answer will be this of a child's: unity for me is when we do not differentiate ourselves with one another, but gather together and pray with one heart. Nevertheless, I will become a warrior and walk fearlessly to defend the Truth and the Tradition of the Church, the Eucharist, our Blessed Mother and the rest of the Sacraments of the Church. I will not sell the Truth or live a false ecumenism.


These lines come from Emmanuel's Song in TLIG. Jesus says about our Blessed Mother: "She is the Queen of Heaven. She is My Mother and your Mother - the loveliest of Women; beautiful as Heaven, radian as My Glory, unique in Her perfection, the delight of My Soul. She is the Woman with the twelve stars of Her Head for a crown; the Vessel of My Glory, a reflection of My Eternal Light. She is the One whose presence in My Courts outshines all the constellations put together. etc


LOVE is the greatest virtue. From love sprouts all the other virtues. It is the root of the tree of virtues. We will all be judged in the Judgment Day according to the measure of the love we had here on earth. I chose of the many messages on the importance of love this one. The Father says: "Tell Me, of what use is a fruit tree which would never produce its fruit? Or, of what use is a harp without ist strings? In other words, of what use are to Me your praises when said without love? Of what use are your sacrifices were they to be offered without love? Your goal then should be love, for it is on love in the end that you will be judged and not on your eloquence of speech or on your knowledge, or on any of your sacrifices, or on the gifts that I, in My benevolence offered you; you will be judged on the measure of your love."


The first thing God asks from a soul is to make peace with Him and live holy. To make peace with God is to return to God's favour and intimacy after a period of estrangement and rebellion through sin and transgression. Thus you will be abandoning yourself to God, offering your heart to Him as a token of your love. Once He has your heart, a transforming union of divine love follows. Quote: "Submissiveness seduces Me; stern as it might appear, it is the opening for Me to enter in your heart and do My Will."


 


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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2005, 05:22:51 AM »

Hi Hadel.....I do remember reading about her years back....
I beleive that her revelations are similar to those of Fatima and Medg.dont know how to spell that..
Anyway.......I think that her revelations are not from God......many people have had similar and they just do not seem right..

I always go back to the Fathers of the church Orthodoxy because there you will find what is needed for your soul.....
Im not having a go at you or to others ........but though Vassoula may be a good person, she has not lived the life as those of our True Orthodox Faith......
If we compare the many prophecies of the fathers and Saints, we see that they struggled and suffered for the faith.....one Holy Catholic(ORTHODOX)and Apostolic  church....and when we look at the many other prophecies they dont come close.....99% maybe......its that 1% that the devil gets you with..
We must remember that the Devil also knows the scriptures...and quotes the scriptures...(when he tempted Christ)
Glory be to God....
helen
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2005, 06:21:56 AM »

Vasula = heretic. She needs lots of prayer.
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2005, 06:24:08 AM »

Vasula needs prayer. She has fallen into grave delusion and taken many with her.
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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2005, 06:51:58 AM »

It is known as channelling in New Age circles. The messages from 'Jesus' from her are clearly of the persuasion that the RC Church is the true church also.

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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2005, 07:06:34 AM »

Vassula Ryden may very well be hearing "a voice", but whose voice is it?
Just a cursory look at the myriad of "messages" she has "recieved", I came accross an unnerving idea which kept repeating:
Quote
"...Our good pleasure, then I have set My Throne inside you; I revealed My gifts and My treasures to you, and I adorned you with My mere Presence, it pleased Me to possess you, and pour in you My Wisdom so that your soul shines forth in splendour; I have immersed you in Our limpid springs, to revive you..."
Message of March 9, 1999

"...little one I will be your Consoler; come, feel Me, synchronize with Me, be One, annihilate in Me, let Me possess you entirely and reign over you, let Me thrust you in My Heart, approach; be in Me and I in you, how I love you daughter! "
Message of July 22, 1987

".....daughter, leave yourself entirely in My hands, let Me use you beloved for healing souls, let Me bind you to Me with love's chains, let Me feel you are entirely Mine, let Me, who am your Creator possess you...."
Message of February 15, 1987

"....I come to deliver you from evil, I do not come to menace you, I only come to warn you out of My Infinite Mercy; My very core yearns to possess you and make you Mine for all Eternity and invest you in dazzling white robes..."
April 10, 1990

"Let me possess you....I want to possess you....let me possess you...." Evil :flame:

Does anyone else see a problem with this?
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2005, 07:17:32 AM »

Vassula Ryden may very well be hearing "a voice", but whose voice is it?
Just a cursory look at the myriad of "messages" she has "recieved", I came accross an unnerving idea which kept repeating:


"Let me possess you....I want to possess you....let me possess you...." Evil :flame:

Does anyone else see a problem with this?


Yes. And it reminds me of the Marian Movement of Priests in the Roman Catholic Church, except that they think the voice talking about possession is that of the Theotokos, not Christ.

James
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2005, 04:55:11 PM »

Vasula needs prayer. She has fallen into grave delusion and taken many with her.

How can you be sure of this? Do you have any evidence against her?
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2005, 05:07:20 PM »



How can you be sure of this? Do you have any evidence against her?

 I don't think anyone can be sure of any of these....It is possible that only in her death will anyone know the truth.. sad to say...  These days I'm not sure anyone would recognize Christ standing right in front of us... I also recall  how St. Bernadette was dismissed by the RC  for a long time...I note that one of the issues for the RC church is that she is GO ...  wonder how they'd react if she were RC??

Also, I wonder why VR  has not been investigated as have the children of Medugorgia (sp.).. who were investigated both scientifically and theologically... and why so many clergy of different faiths bring her in to speak..(Apparently during their visions their  brain waves change completely to 100% use of the brain, which never happens to a regular Joe...)


Anyow,  much as I am usually skeptical on these things then at the same time I wonder..if you truly believe in Christ our God, mystic events llike this are totally possible...

In XC, Kizzy

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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2005, 08:22:55 PM »

We should place the same standard on this woman that Saint Theresa of Avila had for herself:
Does she live a life of holiness and good works and is she humbled by her experience?
Are her messages consistent with Scripture?

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2005, 08:43:15 PM »

This is the official stance of the Catholic Church with respect to Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox who frequently receives communion in the Catholic Church against the rules of her own Church.

The "Notification" was issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1995, then headed by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI:


"NOTIFICATION ON VASSULA RYDEN
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
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"Many bishops, priests, religious and lay people have sought an authoritative judgement from this Congregation on the activity of Mrs. Vassula Ryden, a Greek Orthodox residing in Switzerland, who in speech and in writing is spreading in Catholic circles throughout the world messages attributed to alleged heavenly revelations.

"A calm, attentive examination of the entire question, undertaken by this Congregation in order to "test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (cf. 1 Jn 4:1), has brought out-in addition to positive aspects - a number of basic elements that must be considered negative in the light of Catholic doctrine.

"In addition to pointing out the suspect nature of the ways in which these alleged revelations have occurred, it is necessary to underscore several doctrinal errors they contain.

"Among other things, ambiguous language is used in speaking of the Persons of the Holy Trinity, to the point of confusing the specific names and functions of the Divine Persons. These alleged revelations predict an imminent period when the Antichrist will prevail in the Church. In millenarian style, it is prophesied that God is going to make a final glorious intervention which will initiate on earth, even before Christ's definitive coming, an era of peace and universal prosperity. Furthermore, the proximate arrival is foretold of a Church which would be a kind of pan-Christian community, contrary to Catholic doctrine.

"The fact that the aforementioned errors no longer appear in Ryden's later writings is a sign that the alleged "heavenly messages" are merely the result of private meditations.

"Moreover, by habitually sharing in the sacraments of the Catholic Church even though she is Greek Orthodox, Mrs. Ryden is causing considerable surprise in various circles of the Catholic Church. She appears to be putting herself above all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and every canonical norm, and in effect, is creating an ecumenical disorder that irritates many authorities, ministers and faithful of her own Church, as she puts herself outside the ecclesiastical discipline of the latter.

"Given the negative effect of Vassula Ryden's activities, despite some positive aspects, this Congregation requests the intervention of the Bishops so that their faithful may be suitably informed and that no opportunity may be provided in their Dioceses for the dissemination of her ideas. Lastly, the Congregation invites all the faithful not to regard Mrs. Vassula Ryden's writings and speeches as supernatural and to preserve the purity of the faith that the Lord has entrusted to the Church.

"Vatican City, 6 October 1995."
 


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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2005, 10:20:08 PM »

Does she live a life of holiness and good works and is she humbled by her experience?
Ryden divorced and remarried in a civil ceremony when she started receiving her "messages".... aside from this, even a "holy" life does not protect one from prelest (spiritual delusion), in fact, one is more likely to fall prey to it.
Teresa of Avila's pious life does not preclude delusion either, nor does Francis of Assisi's. Boneventure, the biographer of Francis of Assisi descibes one of Francis's visions in which he ascends to "Heaven" and stands before "God the Father" who cannot decide who he loves more- his "Only-Begotten Son" or Francis, his son by "adoption"....
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2005, 10:40:04 PM »

How can you be sure of this? Do you have any evidence against her?
Matthew,
Even the Roman Catholic Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith which was headed at the time by Cardinal Josef Ratzinger- the current Pope, found doctrinal errors in her "messages".
Also, why does the voice keep saying that it wants to 'possess' her? See http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,5925.msg76732.html#msg76732
I wonder what Fr. Seraphim of Platina would have to say about this in the light of his work: "Orthodoxy And The Religion Of The Future."
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2005, 11:52:43 PM »

.... I also recall how St. Bernadette was dismissed by the RC for a long time...
Your point being...?
The major "message" of the visions of Bernadette was that the "lady" announced who she was by the appellation: "je suis l'Immacul+¬ Conception " ("I am the Immaculate Conception").
Is the "Immaculate Conception" a true doctrine therefore, since it has received this "divine" approval?

The presence of unnatural phenomena such as in the cases of Lourdes, Medjugore, Fatima etc is not necessarily evidence of divine phenomena- the "father of lies" often disguises himself as an "Angel of Light", and can produce unnatural phenomena in his victims.
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2005, 01:02:04 AM »


Your point being...?
The major "message" of the visions of Bernadette was that the "lady" announced who she was by the appellation: "je suis l'Immacul+¬ Conception " ("I am the Immaculate Conception").
Is the "Immaculate Conception" a true doctrine therefore, since it has received this "divine" approval?

The presence of unnatural phenomena such as in the cases of Lourdes, Medjugore, Fatima etc is not necessarily evidence of divine phenomena- the "father of lies" often disguises himself as an "Angel of Light", and can produce unnatural phenomena in his victims.


Lourdes is a Holy place, where the waters have healed people miraculously... St. Bernadette was rebuffed by the church as she was illiterate, had not made her first communion, never heard of the IC, and couldn't read or write well... She was brutally treated for her vision..with the hopes she would recant her statements...
 All of the 3 prophecies of Fatima came true...

As for the IC,  there is an IC that is true doctrine..ever virgin and most pure...undefiled... all embodied in the Theotokos ... and I believe that the apparition at Lourdes was speaking true doctrine...How the RC interprets the meaning of it is another matter...and the EO church has never sat down with the RC to discuss the topic theologically..


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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2005, 01:18:30 AM »

As for the IC, there is an IC that is true doctrine..ever virgin and most pure...undefiled... all embodied in the Theotokos ... and I believe that the apparition at Lourdes was speaking true doctrine...How the RC interprets the meaning of it is another matter...and the EO church has never sat down with the RC to discuss the topic theologically...In

Kizzy,
You're really clutching at straws now. How many different ways can the doctrine of the IC be interpreted?
The Immaculate Coception is one of two doctrines proclaimed to be "infallable", the other being the "Assumption".

Pope Pope Pius IX infallably declared the doctrine to be: "The Blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."

Therefore, this requires a belief in Original Sin imparting guilt, and that the Theotokos (and therefore, Christ) did not live on Earth under the conditions of the Fall, and that the purity of the Theotokos was an a priori purity in which her free will played no part- as though she were a robot or puppet.

At best, he Immaculate Conception is a silly solution to a non-existent problem.
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2005, 02:14:25 AM »

Yes, also, I was taught in my household if you do, by the Grace of God, do see something supernatural or hear something supernatural, you are still to say "In the Name of God, In the Name of the Son, Jesus and in the Name of the Holy Spirit, who are you?"

So I wonder if she at least asked (if True) who the person is when "speaking" to her?Huh OK, not to take chances in this world, I sure would!  Shocked

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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2005, 02:40:05 AM »

Boneventure, the biographer of Francis of Assisi descibes one of Francis's visions in which he ascends to "Heaven" and stands before "God the Father" who cannot decide who he loves more- his "Only-Begotten Son" or Francis, his son by "adoption"....

Given that we are adopted as sons of God, I would assume that the Father will love us equally in the Kingdom.

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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2005, 02:42:30 AM »

Is the "Immaculate Conception" a true doctrine therefore, since it has received this "divine" approval?

I would have to agree. Essentially, we believe the doctrine also but use different phraseology.

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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2005, 04:04:11 AM »

I would have to agree. Essentially, we believe the doctrine also but use different phraseology.

By "we" I presume you mean the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
This is certainly not what the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bartholemew believes.

Patriach Bartholomew on the “Immaculate Conception”

Quote from: Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholemew
The Catholic Church found that it needed to institute a new dogma for Christendom about one thousand and eight hundred years after the appearance of the Christianity, because it had accepted a perception of original sin - a mistaken one for us Orthodox- according to which original sin passes on a moral stain or a legal responsibility to the descendants of Adam, instead of that recognized as correct by the Orthodox faith according to which the sin transmitted through inheritance the corruption, caused by the separation of mankind from the uncreated grace of God, which makes him live spiritually and in the flesh. Mankind shaped in the image of God, with the possibility and destiny of being like to God, by freely choosing love towards Him and obedience to his commandments, can even after the fall of Adam and Eve become friend of God according to intention; then God sanctifies them, as he sanctified many of the progenitors before Christ, even if the accomplishment of their ransom from corruption, that is their salvation, was achieved after the incarnation of Christ and through Him.

In consequence, according to the Orthodox faith, Mary the All-holy Mother of God was not conceived exempt from the corruption of original sin, but loved God above of all things and obeyed his commandments, and thus was sanctified by God through Jesus Christ who incarnated himself of her. She obeyed Him like one of the faithful, and addressed herself to Him with a Mother's trust. Her holiness and purity were not blemished by the corruption, handed on to her by original sin as to every man, precisely because she was reborn in Christ like all the saints, sanctified above every saint.

Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain.

As already said, original sin weighs on the descendants of Adam and of Eve as corruption, and not as legal responsibility or moral stain. The sin brought hereditary corruption and not a hereditary legal responsibility or a hereditary moral stain. In consequence the All-holy participated in the hereditary corruption, like all mankind, but with her love for God and her purity understood as an imperturbable and unhesitating dedication of her love to God alone she succeeded, through the grace of God, in sanctifying herself in Christ and making herself worthy of becoming the house of God, as God wants all us human beings to become. Therefore we in the Orthodox Church honor the All-holy Mother of God above all the saints, albeit we don't accept the new dogma of her Immaculate Conception. The non-acceptance of this dogma in no way diminishes our love and veneration of the All-holy Mother of God.
Source


Only what is assumed can be saved. Christ can only save us from the consequences of the Fall if He himself lived under them. If the Theotokos did not inherit the consequences of the Fall, then neither did Christ, and therefore He could not save us from them.


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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2005, 04:35:13 AM »

Here is a website concerning Vassula Ryden which is enough to give any sane person pause

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Vassula.html

Also a few e-mails concerning the Cult of Vassula

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/VassulaEmails.html

Here's a revelation from Jesus to Vassula while she was in Russia, confirming that it will be Russia which will head a united Church. Bye bye Rome! :-)

http://www.krotov.org/engl/1993/ryden.html

Vassula's prophecy about the attack on the Twin Towers as Jesus' punishment for the evils of America

Here is the crux of Jesus said to Vassula: "How can I not breathe on these renegades My Purifying Fire? ... every evil built into Towers will collapse into a heap of rubble and be buried in the dust of sin."

This prophecy was given to Vassula on 11 September 1991 - ten years exactly before the Towers were attacked and collapsed!

Actually the whole prophecy is very heavy and is replete with Jesus' threats of vengeance and destruction. There's a lot of hatred in her revelations, mixed in with the sweet stuff.



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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2005, 05:07:00 AM »

Thanks Irish Hermit for the readings.... very interesting too.

By the way, I answered those 27 questions the way I know them as a EO and not Vassula's words... gee no reply for two months now... I wonder why Grin

Anyway, I am not here to judge, but here to learn so I ask for any opinions and factual knowledge... again, I follow my heart and faith in God and something tells me this seer, well, is not all there... thanks.

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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2005, 08:02:18 AM »

The GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH has issued the following statement (the original is in Greek) regarding Vassoula:

Synodic Committee on Heresies, Sects.

The Committee, after it studied the evidence, come to conclusion that Vasoula Rynten has been deducted from the Orthodox Church, although typically she still is a member.
 
Additionally let it be known that regarding Vasoula Rynten's organization there are extensive reports to Church periodical "Dialogue".
    
Vasoula asked Greek Justice for the conviction of the Secretary of “Synodic Committee on Heresies” father Kyrjako Tsoyro for this publications, for “slanderous libel”. The trial was to take place at 30.6.2000, however Ms Rynten withdrew the indictment two days before this day.
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2005, 03:21:28 PM »



Kizzy,
You're really clutching at straws now. How many different ways can the doctrine of the IC be interpreted?
The Immaculate Coception is one of two doctrines proclaimed to be "infallable", the other being the "Assumption".

Pope Pope Pius IX infallably declared the doctrine to be: "The Blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."

Therefore, this requires a belief in Original Sin imparting guilt, and that the Theotokos (and therefore, Christ) did not live on Earth under the conditions of the Fall, and that the purity of the Theotokos was an a priori purity in which her free will played no part- as though she were a robot or puppet.

At best, he Immaculate Conception is a silly solution to a non-existent problem.


Why interpret the RC doctrine... we should focus on our own which is based on "chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28)"  More honorable and glorious than the cherubim and seraphim... Most pure and undefiled, we magnify her... In fact her Icon looms large over all in the church, as the Mother of God..
Her free will played no part in her conception of our Lord..., which was completely bestowed by the Grace of God...
The EO  church has not had a meaningful dialogue on scripture in a long time... but we do share in the magnification of her as does the RC church... none of the Protestant faiths do this...and we believe she was pure in order to have been chosen by God...

If the RC church came to an interpretation of these words and put a name on it, so be it... if the VM said she was the IC, I  take  the meaning that the EO church has..

"And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord... "..." all generations shall call her blessed" How can her soul magnify the Lord if it is not 'pure'??

In XC, Kizzy

 









 
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2005, 06:57:22 PM »

Do we not believe that the Virgin Mary was born sinless and blessed?
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2005, 07:37:03 PM »

Why interpret the RC doctrine... we should focus on our own which is based on "chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28)" More honorable and glorious than the cherubim and seraphim... Most pure and undefiled, we magnify her... In fact her Icon looms large over all in the church, as the Mother of God..
Oh well, that proves it....she must have been conceived Immaculate if her icon looms over all in your church.....

Her free will played no part in her conception of our Lord..., which was completely bestowed by the Grace of God...
Kizzy, firstly. the "Immaculate Conception" does not refer to the Thetokos concieving Christ, it refers to St. Anna's conception of the Theotokos. Secondly, of course the Theotokos' free will needed to co-operate with God in the Incarnation. She Had to say "yes" to God, and she could have refused. Fortunately for us, she did say "yes": "Behold the handmaid of the Lord! Be it done to me according to your word."

The Orthodox Church does not accept the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, period. The Orthodox Church teaches that the Theotokos inherited 'Original Sin'. If you have a problem with this, I suggest you bring it up with the Ecumenical Patriarch. Here is his email:

His All Holiness, BARTHOLOMEW
Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome, and Ecumenical Patriarch
E-mail: Patriarchate@ec-patr.org

... if the VM said she was the IC, I take the meaning that the EO church has..

Well, there are a couple of "if's" here. The first one is, "if" Bernadette was telling the truth.... did Berrnadette actually see anything in the grotto at Lourdes? The second is, "if" she did see something, was it a hallucination or projection (i.e. 'natural'), or was it divine or demonic in origin ('supernatural' or 'paranormal')? You seem to be assuming that the Orthodox Church has accepted Lourdes as a genuine apparition of the Theotokos. This is not so.

Here is an article on "Marian Apparitions" by Miriam Lambouras: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx








 

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« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2005, 08:09:04 PM »

Orthodox Info is automatically biased against any apparition that appears to a Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2005, 08:20:07 PM »

Orthodox Info is automatically biased against any apparition that appears to a Roman Catholic.
Unlike yourself, who is free of all bias?
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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2005, 08:31:49 PM »

Think of how the Virgin Mary appeared over the Coptic Church in Zeitun, Egypt. It should be obvious that Theotokos appears to Christians, even the Orthodox. It is wonderful that we have her with us.
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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2005, 08:47:17 PM »

Think of how the Virgin Mary appeared over the Coptic Church in Zeitun, Egypt. It should be obvious that Theotokos appears to Christians, even the Orthodox. It is wonderful that we have her with us.
I suggest you also think about Zeitun (which my father witnessed) and compare it to Roman Catholic phenomena at Lourdes, Fatima, Garabandal and Medjugore etc. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomenon, the Zeitun apparitions were witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people of all faiths, (actually they were witnessed by millions, because the apparitions at Zeitun were even televised on the news). Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomena, there were no threats of apocalyptic punishment in the Zeitun apparitions. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomena, there was no pushing of Roman Catholic (or even Orthodox) doctrines by the Zeitun apparitions. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomenon, people did not have to go into trance-like states to see the apparitions at Zeitun. Unlike the Roman Catholic phenomenon, the Zeitun apparitions could be photographed.
The appaitions of Zeitun and the Roman Catholic apparitions could not be more different.
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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2005, 10:11:40 PM »

But what about the fruits? By their fruits you will know them. If the apparition encourages repentance, the Eucharist, etc., how can it be evil?
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« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2005, 11:35:21 PM »



Kizzy, firstly. the "Immaculate Conception" does not refer to the Thetokos concieving Christ, it refers to St. Anna's conception of the Theotokos.


The RC believe that St. Anna's conception of the Theotokos was a normal conception according to the laws of nature, the IC does not refer to her physical conception...The RC definition is that  the IC  refers to her soul  sent by God  as immaculate.    However, my point is that the RC definition of the IC has little to do with anything in this discussion.. it is just their interpretation of scripture and now you've quoted the EP's statement and interpretation... so we've got two hierarchs using different words on the blessedness and purity  of Mary... This topic was never discussed in Ecumenical council and for most of the church's history there was no discussion on Mary that went into detail on how her soul and body were joined together..it was left 'open to further interpretation' by the faithful....  The EP is only compelled to state something now  in reaction to the RC church attempt at further defining Mary... but the church has no official statement from it's early days stating that she is not Immaculate...

Her appearance in Lourdes was experienced by many others similar to other phenomena in Egypt as flashes of light.. and was also accompanied by miracles....Zeitun only confirms the ability for apparitions to be seen and for her to appear in other that EO churches...and just because those were 'photographed' and seen by millions doesn't mean all apparitions have to be the same way...  I saw the weeping icon of the Theotokos on Long Island at the St. Paul's Cathedral when I was young... I'm telling you  words cannot describe that which is out of this world... which is why volumes have been written and still it is not enough to describe things with complete clarity for all...

In XC, Kizzy




 
 
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« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2005, 12:06:14 AM »

But what about the fruits? By their fruits you will know them. If the apparition encourages repentance, the Eucharist, etc., how can it be evil?

Firstly, let me say at the outset that I do not doubt the sincerity of faith of those who accept Lourdes, Garabandal, Fatima, Medjugore as divinely sent apparitions. And yes, this faith has led many to moral conversion, ascesis (yes, even fasting) and prayer.
But since you have asked that we look at their fruits, let’s examine all their fruits:

The Fruits of Lourdes:
On this very thread, a daughter of the Orthodox Church now questions the Orthodox doctrine that the Theotokos was conceived under the conditions of Original Sin. The fruits of Lourdes include confusion over not only the doctrines concerning the Theotokos, but also of Christ. The “Lady” who appeared at Lourdes “confirmed” the Roman Catholic doctrine that the Theotokos was not conceived inheriting the conditions of the Fall, and if she did not inherit the conditions of the Fall then neither did Christ. This requires a major alteration of Orthodox Christology. The fruits of Lourdes therefore include heresy.

The Fruits of Fatima:
The apparition of Fatima not only insisted on devotion to the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” it also insisted on “reparation” being made to it. “Penance” must be made to “atone” to the “Immaculate Heart of Mary” for offenses committed against it. The Orthodox view of sin is that it is a spiritual illness requiring the medicine of confession and correction. The Orthodox do not accept a doctrine of “penance” providing a “satisfaction” to God for sin. This is the legalistic, and judicial view of sin. And even if we accept this view, is the Theotokos now a goddess or a fourth Hypostasis of the Holy Trinity that “reparation” for sin must now be made to her “Immaculate Heart”? The fruits of Fatima therefore include an idolatry of the Theotokos.
The “lady” of Fatima also insisted that Russia should be “consecrated to her Immaculate Heart” by which means she said “Russia will be converted and there will be peace”. How do Roman Catholic Followers of Fatima interpret this? Well according to Father Nicholas Gruner, the founder and Director of the” International Fatima Rosary Crusade”:
Quote
“ The imminent recrudescence of Eastern Rite Catholicism should have been an occasion of great joy in the objective order of things, but for the schismatic Orthodox hierarchy, which had for so long enjoyed the use of Communist plunder, it was a grave emergency: several cathedrals and some 2,000 parish properties were already in dispute in Romania and the Ukraine, not to mention a potentially vast loss of forcibly-acquired adherents. The resulting hue and cry clearly posed a threat to the progress of Ostpolitik and world ecumenism in “the former Soviet Union.”GǪ. Consider: The Balamand Statement implicitly claims that when Our Lady spoke of the conversion of Russia, She, and therefore Her Divine Son, were espousing an “out-dated ecclesiology of return to the Catholic Church”. Contrary to Our Lord and Our Lady, Balamand teaches that “in the search for re-establishing unity there is no question of conversion of people from one Church to the other in order to insure their salvation.” Yet Our Lady of Fatima did speak unambiguously of the conversion of Russia to the Catholic faith, did She not?”
Source
So according to Fr. Gruner, the “Lady” of Fatima insists that the only way in which Russia can be saved is by converting to Catholicism, and the way to do this is through the Uniate Chrrches. The fruits of Fatima include the current strife and disastrous and shameful situation of the Uniate Churches in Russia for which the Balamand Agreement had to come into being. The fruits of Fatima therefore include increased tension and strife between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

The Fruits of Garabandal:
Garabandal has three main prophecies: a worldwide warning, a miracle at the site of the apparitions, and a worldwide chastisement. Neither of these prophesies have been fulfilled yet, which is interesting because the “Lady” told the seers of Garabandal that the “miracle” would be witnessed by Padre Pio and by the Third Pope to be elected since the prophesies of the “Lady” of Garabandal (i.e. Pope John Paul II). Both Padre Pio and Pope John Paul II died without seeing any miracle of Garabandal. The fruits of Garabandal therefore include the fact that the “Lady” is a false prophet.

The Fruits of Medjugore:
Let me tell you a little fact which is not known about Medjugore because it is not widely publicized in our media in the West (reasons which will become obvious).
The apparitions of Medjugore began on 24th of June 1981. This date is significant because exactly 40 years and three days before this date, the site of the Apparitions in Medjugorje was the scene of a slaughter 600 Orthodox Christians including monks and priests.
In the village of Medjugorje, on the other side of the “hill of Apparition” is a mass grave. Until 1989, this mass grave contained the remains of some 600 Orthodox Serbs who were slaughtered by the Ustashi under the supervision and with the assistance of the local Franciscans. These Orthodox Serbs had taken refuge in the Zitomislici Orthodox Monastery that once stood in Medjugore. Why do I say “once stood”? Because in 1993 (twelve years after the "Lady" started appearing in Medjugorje) Croats, not Albanian extremists, but Roman Catholics from Medjugore completely destroyed the monastery of Zitomislici, expelling it’s monastics and razing it to the ground. Here is an except of a letter of protest to Pope John Paul II about this written by two Professors of the School of Comparative Religion Haverford College, PA.
Quote
“Large crosses were also placed in front and above the Zitomislici Orthodox Monastery to mark its annihilation. In 1993 by Catholic miilitia groups operating out of the Virgin Mary pilgrimage site of Medjugorje attacked the ancient monastery, killed or expelled the its priests, monks, and nuns, drove away in terror the Orthodox Christian population of the area, and dynamited and burned the historic buildings. With great effort and both local and international support from all religious traditions, the Zitomislici complex is being rebuilt. The major officials of BiH have come together with the Islamic religious leader and the Orthodox bishop at this moment on reconciliation and renewal.Only Bishop Peric was absent, declaring he refused to be part of such events. The destruction of Zitomislici by Medjugorje based Catholic militias, the killing of its monk and priests, the expulsion of its Orthodox population, as well as the construction of large Latin crosses above and in front of the site are all documented on the extensive an Zitomislici documentation site. At the same site you will find photos of the ceremony inaugurating the reconstruciton of the historic monastery complex, with representatives from the Islamic and Orthodox churches, the Jewish community, the Office of the High Representative for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Bosnia-Herzegovinan commision for heritage revitalization in accordance with Annex VIII of the Dayton peace agreement. Unfortunately, though Catholics of good will participated in the ceremony as individuals, no official representatives of the Dioscese or of the local Franciscan community is to be found. Bishop Peric boycotted the event and refused to send any representative in his place.

Holy Father, you have intervened in other cases where you judged a change was necessary; in Central America and in North America you removed bishops you felt were acting outside the guidelines.For ten years, the Dioscese of Mostar and the Fransciscan run pilgrimage site have supported religious exclusion and have either supported the extremist militias directly or have refused to condemn their atrocities, with only a couple minor exceptions. Even today, the Church at Medjugorje is decorated with a large banner based upon the flag of Croatia, even though Medjugorje is in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The banner signals that the Medjugorje friars support the illegal and banned “herzeg bosna,” a self-proclaimed and illegal all-Catholic territory that will be merged with Croatia proper.”
  Source
The “Lady” of of Medjugorje calls herself the “Queen of Peace”. Yet she has brought and inspired anything but peace to Bosnia-Hercegovina. The fruit of the “Queen of Peace” of Medjugorje has been nothing but civil strife and civil war with an inhuman violence not seen in Europe since WWII, based on the Croatian Nationalism and Roman Catholic exclusivity she inspires in a land outside Croatia.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 01:00:39 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2005, 01:30:43 AM »

How would you explain the sun dancing at Fatima?
Pope John Paul II accepted that Russia converted by abandoning communism, which is the official position of the Vatican.
As for Medjugorje, I've known for quite a while the bloody history surrounding the area. However, Mary brings a message of peace, reconciliation, and toleration between Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics, and between other religious groups.
Perhaps she is appearing so that humanity may heal.

As for Lourdes, too many miraculous healings have happened for me to doubt it. I'm sorry but a contradiction with Orthodox doctrine is not good enough. She appeared to a Roman Catholic girl and presented herself in a way that such a person would understand.

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« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2005, 02:00:51 AM »

How would you explain the sun dancing at Fatima?
Did the sun dance at Fatima? Not everyone in the Cova saw the Sun dance. Let's look at some eyewitness accounts from the time:
Quote
Avelino de Almeida
The journalist from O S+¬culo, Avelino de Almeida, worked for the newspaper founded in 1881 by Magalh+úes Lima, Grand Master of the Masons, and whose director J.J. Silva Gra+ºa, kept an editorial line of free thinking.
Avelino had been in a seminary and left, but he hadn’t abandoned the Catholic faith. In this first article, he distances himself from the apparitions, which he presents as a consequence of “the great tribulations that society was going through. The times of great tribulations have always favored the rebirth of religious ideas and the war adds to their expansion creating a fertile environment.”
Avelino de Almeida says that he saw “the sun dance”, but his fellow reporter, the photographer, Judah Ruah, nephew of the famous photographer Joshua Benoliel, who worked with him, saw nothing. Why? According to him, because nothing strange happened to the Sun. When he saw all those people kneeling, he understood that it was the happening and that is why he photographed it.
Source
The same phenomenon happens at Medjugore today, some see the Sun dance, some don't. There are many possible explanations for this- mass hysteria, autosuggestion, but one concerning possibility is this:
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon...And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men" (Revelation 13:11-13). J
ust because a "miracle" is seen does not mean it necessarily comes from God. We cannot discount demonic influence.

Pope John Paul II accepted that Russia converted by abandoning communism, which is the official position of the Vatican.
Could you provide some quotes or links to support this assertion?
 
As for Medjugorje, I've known for quite a while the bloody history surrounding the area. However, Mary brings a message of peace, reconciliation, and toleration between Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics, and between other religious groups.
Perhaps she is appearing so that humanity may heal.
If this is the case, why did Catholics from Medjugore destroy a nearby Orthodox Monastery and drive out the monastics and surrounding Orthodox community there after listening to the daily messages of the "Lady" for 12 years?

As for Lourdes, too many miraculous healings have happened for me to doubt it. I'm sorry but a contradiction with Orthodox doctrine is not good enough. She appeared to a Roman Catholic girl and presented herself in a way that such a person would understand.
It might surprise you to know that of the millions who pilgrimaged to Lourdes that in the 122 years between 1858 and 1980, only 64 cures were proclaimed miraculous by the Roman Catholic Church itself.
Pentacostal and Charismatic groups report more miracles on a monthly basis than that- is this evidence for the "truth" of Pentacostalism?


« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 02:10:33 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2005, 02:13:23 AM »

Given that the Vatican would be as skeptical as possible about the cures, I'd assume that much more than that number have ocurred.
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« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2005, 05:03:39 AM »

I read in a Catholic Magazine about 5-6 years ago an interview with Sister Lucia, one of the seers, who noted that the rejection of Communism by the Russian People and the return to the Orthodox Church and its true veneration of the Mother of God was the interpretation of the vision as she understands it today.  She said that at the time of the visions that some things did not make sense in the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church of the time, but felt that with Vatican II that many of the visions provided became much clearer in meaning, like the conversion of Russia not to Catholicism but to the Church as an entity. I wish I could give you the Citation, but I am not Roman Catholic and read the article in a Dentist's office possibly in the Catholic Digest or some such magazine.  Sister Lucia's revelation of this interpretation brought her under some scorn by some of the more conservative "Armies" of Mary groups that espouse dark  meanings to the secrets of the Fatima Visions.

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« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2005, 07:40:37 AM »

Let me provide you with a few more Roman Catholic citations to show you the "fruits" of Fatima include a belief that Russia can only be saved by converting to Roman Catholicism. Are the multiplicity and variety of these citations a result of the "good seed" which the "Lady" sowed at Fatima? If, as Matthew777 says, we should judge an alledged apparition by it's fruits, then here are some of the fruits of Fatima:

From the Christus Rex website:
Quote
“If we do not heed Our Lady's warnings soon, the Her horrible prophesy may well be realized in the near future, even in our own back yards. She told us that God had chosen to use Russia as the instrument of chastisement to punish the whole world if we did not, by our obedience, prayers, and sacrifices, obtain conversion of Russia to the Catholic faith.”
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/apparitions/pr00011.htm

James Likoudis President-Emeritus of the International Catholics United for the Faith (CUF) and a noted writer on catechetics, sex education, and historical theology. He is also a convert to Roman Catholicism from Greek Ortodoxy writes:
Quote
“Many who have labored for the union of the Church after Our Lady's 1917 prophecy that "Russia will be converted," have understood it as predicting not only the end of a vicious atheistic Communist rule in Russia, the heartland of the Soviet Empire, but the fulfillment of hopes and dreams for a Catholic Russia. In 1856 the aristocrat-convert Ivan Sergievitch Gagarin, who had become a Jesuit, published a book, "Will Russia become Catholic?" which excited much interest in the possible reunion of the churches. Despite the conversion of a number of prominent Russian individuals and intellectuals to Catholicism, it was corporate reunion that the Popes have always sought with the East, and it is the corporate reunion of entire churches under their patriarchs and Bishops that the Second Vatican Council certainly desired to promote.”
http://credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/fatima.htm

Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy (one of the Fatima visionaries) "many times":
Quote
"the 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."
http://www.tldm.org/News7/ConversionOfRussia.htm


Fr. Kramer of “Our Lady's Fatima Apostolate”
Quote
The conversion of Russia is identified by Our Lady of Fatima as the very Triumph of Her Immaculate Heart, the focal point of the Message of Fatima. Amazingly, the Ratzinger commentary on the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart in the Vatican booklet on the Secret makes no reference whatever to the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith. This conversion of Russia has apparently been written out of the Message of Fatima, never to be mentioned again by the Vatican. Meanwhile, the abortion rate has soared in Russia, its government is dominated by atheistic ‘ex-communists’ and recycled KGB agents, and Russian society is falling to pieces.”
www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/thirdsecret06.asp

If you want a more “traditional” (or what some people like to call “orthodox”) Roman Catholic position, how about “Tradition in Action”: which has this article:
“The Myth of a Converted Russia Exposed “ By Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D. Published in Catholic Family News, March 2001, and the Daily Catholic , February 21, 2002.
Quote
“There is a myth that is being spun in Catholic public opinion, a fable about “the new springtime of graces” blowing into Russia since Communism supposedly fell in the 1980’s. Catholic magazines like Inside the Vatican have played their part in nourishing the myth by featuring optimistic stories on great movements of religion and conversion, the fulfillment of the prophecies of Our Lady at Fatima in 1917 Never mind that what is “emerging from the catacombs” are the Schismatic [Orthodox] Churches, not the Roman Catholic Faith.”
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/b007ht.htm
« Last Edit: April 24, 2005, 07:57:47 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2005, 02:05:12 PM »

I have heared that even the Bad-one can sent massage to humans, and that even if you see an angel you can never now if it is God angel or not ? 

Maybe Vasoula and the latins are decived  Huh
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« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2005, 08:57:41 PM »

Here's the deal:
We are only human. Therefore, if we come into contact with the divine or the Theotokos, some level of interpretation will creap in. I mean, the seer will attempt to explain the apparition as she understands it from the vantage point of her particular belief system. If the Virgin Mary appeared to a Catholic, she would be explained in Catholic terms. Likewise, if she appeared to an Orthodox Christian, she would be explained in Orthodox terms. Know what I mean?
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« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2005, 01:04:59 AM »

Here's the deal:
We are only human. Therefore, if we come into contact with the divine or the Theotokos, some level of interpretation will creap in. I mean, the seer will attempt to explain the apparition as she understands it from the vantage point of her particular belief system. If the Virgin Mary appeared to a Catholic, she would be explained in Catholic terms. Likewise, if she appeared to an Orthodox Christian, she would be explained in Orthodox terms. Know what I mean?

Matthew, Amen! That is whay I've been trying to say.  To say "I am the Immaculate Conception" does not mean Catholic doctrine...Mary represents the Immaculate conception of Our Lord....She didn't say; here's what i mean...' and provide the Catholic definition... It is the RC church that transposed their doctrine on her words... Everyone sees the world through their own paradigm... and an Atheist seeing the vision and doves at Zeitun might just say it was  a UFO...

In XC, Kizzy





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