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Author Topic: Vassula Ryden Excommunicated  (Read 60937 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: September 25, 2010, 03:12:12 AM »

Did't the Greek Orthodox church that excommunicated her talk to other Orthodox Churches and give them a HEADS UP, and tell them about her.....
Its Confusing this mess ....

I really do wish that an Orthodox source--EO or OO--would publish and circulate some sort of pamphlet or booklet to educate and warn people about her.  So far all we have are various documents that one can print out from the internet.  It's not quite as effective.  

Quote
I could understand Catholics loving and chasing after these type of visionaries ,They can't seem to get enough of them....

One of her greatest critics has been Pope Benedict.

Quote
But orthodoxy Should Know better especially the Orthodox Clergy....God help us when our Clergy start Falling for this and leading the Orthodox Faithful astray....

As I've said, her supporters can be deceptive and have actually been known to lie about clergy supporting her and her messages when no such thing has really happened.  I also think some clergy have been tricked into giving the appearance of supporting her when they didn't really know who she was.  I guess more needs to be done to educate not only lay persons about her, but also clergy.

Maybe the Pope Did or Didn't By Speaking Loud enough for His Faithful to Hear...Catholics do chase after these weird things ..Just here in Chicago At the Fullerton expressway  Exit, under the bridge someone  noticed a Smudge that he or she interpeted as the Image of the Virgin Mary...Created such a Traffic Jam due to the Catholic Faithful going there to venerate the smudge...That went on for quite a long time...
And we don't do the same thing?

No We don't If A Holy Ikona starts to weep even in a Private residence It's taken to the church ,so a Bishop  can examine it and do a exoticism on it to make sure its not of the devil....
Is this what your church does?

The practice of the Russian and Serbian Churches too.
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« Reply #271 on: September 25, 2010, 03:25:32 AM »

Did't the Greek Orthodox church that excommunicated her talk to other Orthodox Churches and give them a HEADS UP, and tell them about her.....
Its Confusing this mess ....

I really do wish that an Orthodox source--EO or OO--would publish and circulate some sort of pamphlet or booklet to educate and warn people about her.  So far all we have are various documents that one can print out from the internet.  It's not quite as effective.  

Quote
I could understand Catholics loving and chasing after these type of visionaries ,They can't seem to get enough of them....

One of her greatest critics has been Pope Benedict.

Quote
But orthodoxy Should Know better especially the Orthodox Clergy....God help us when our Clergy start Falling for this and leading the Orthodox Faithful astray....

As I've said, her supporters can be deceptive and have actually been known to lie about clergy supporting her and her messages when no such thing has really happened.  I also think some clergy have been tricked into giving the appearance of supporting her when they didn't really know who she was.  I guess more needs to be done to educate not only lay persons about her, but also clergy.

Maybe the Pope Did or Didn't By Speaking Loud enough for His Faithful to Hear...Catholics do chase after these weird things ..Just here in Chicago At the Fullerton expressway  Exit, under the bridge someone  noticed a Smudge that he or she interpeted as the Image of the Virgin Mary...Created such a Traffic Jam due to the Catholic Faithful going there to venerate the smudge...That went on for quite a long time...
And we don't do the same thing?

No We don't If A Holy Ikona starts to weep even in a Private residence It's taken to the church ,so a Bishop  can examine it and do a exoticism on it to make sure its not of the devil....
Is this what your church does?

The practice of the Russian and Serbian Churches too.
You do realize I'm challenging stashko's stupid stereotypes? Wink
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« Reply #272 on: September 25, 2010, 05:11:50 AM »

Did't the Greek Orthodox church that excommunicated her talk to other Orthodox Churches and give them a HEADS UP, and tell them about her.....
Its Confusing this mess ....

I really do wish that an Orthodox source--EO or OO--would publish and circulate some sort of pamphlet or booklet to educate and warn people about her.  So far all we have are various documents that one can print out from the internet.  It's not quite as effective. 

Quote
I could understand Catholics loving and chasing after these type of visionaries ,They can't seem to get enough of them....

One of her greatest critics has been Pope Benedict.

Quote
But orthodoxy Should Know better especially the Orthodox Clergy....God help us when our Clergy start Falling for this and leading the Orthodox Faithful astray....

As I've said, her supporters can be deceptive and have actually been known to lie about clergy supporting her and her messages when no such thing has really happened.  I also think some clergy have been tricked into giving the appearance of supporting her when they didn't really know who she was.  I guess more needs to be done to educate not only lay persons about her, but also clergy.

Maybe the Pope Did or Didn't By Speaking Loud enough for His Faithful to Hear...Catholics do chase after these weird things ..Just here in Chicago At the Fullerton expressway  Exit, under the bridge someone  noticed a Smudge that he or she interpeted as the Image of the Virgin Mary...Created such a Traffic Jam due to the Catholic Faithful going there to venerate the smudge...That went on for quite a long time...
And we don't do the same thing?

No We don't If A Holy Ikona starts to weep even in a Private residence It's taken to the church ,so a Bishop  can examine it and do a exoticism on it to make sure its not of the devil....
Is this what your church does?

The practice of the Russian and Serbian Churches too.
You do realize I'm challenging stashko's stupid stereotypes? Wink

I've witnessed some of what Stashko speaks of..... a few years back somebody noticed that the fence post on a Sydney beach resembled the profile of the Holy Virgin.  Before you could say jiggery popery there were Catholics there by the hundreds and thousands, kneeling in the sand and saying the rosary, kissing the fence post....

I don't know whatever become of the post or how the story ended...
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« Reply #273 on: September 25, 2010, 08:13:41 AM »



These people are NOT being given communion at the Liturgy.  Fr Daniel is half undressed and not wearing any Phelonion.  What is really happening here?

To see more pictures
http://tlig.org/en/news/2010-09-16/2129/

It's pretty obvious there was a liturgy and they were communed from those pictures. Fr Daniel appears to have taken off his phelonion to give out communion for some reason.  Irrespective of why he would take off his phelonion, he is clearly shown concelebrating with a Roman Catholic priest, holding up Ryden's book in his Church, and then letting her give a talk. I hope corrective measures are taken to help Fr Daniel realize his mistake.



Father Anastasios,

Seeing as this priest is not vested, it doesn't look like he's concelebrating. While it's certainly inappropriate for him to be up at the altar, because it gives that impression, my guess for now is that there was no concelebration.

Simply from the photographic evidence. Fr. Daniel would probably be a better person to ask.

Furthermore, Fr. Daniel does not mention Fr. Rolf concelebrating. Her website does, however, mention this:

"On Monday morning, Fr. Rolf celebrated Holy Mass in the Foundation's beautiful chapel while Fr. Daniel celebrated the Divine Liturgy for the Feast of the Holy Trinity in his church. "

So the next day, they did not concelebrate, but celebrated Eucharist at their own churches. This of course doesn't shed much more light on what happened on Sunday.

Vassula Ryden asserted initially that they concelebrated. I think she must have been confused about what the term means.

Of course, there is always the possibility that Fr. Rolf has gone off the deep end and celebrated Mass in an alb and stole, without a chasuble.
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« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2010, 08:43:08 AM »

The national poet of Romania, Mihai Eminescu, born Eminovich, is suspected of Armenian descent. Or even Turkish  Shocked. His last name is ultimately Arabic  Shocked Shocked Shocked
I thought that his last name, or that of his father, was Eminovici, which was a slavic name, and Eminescu was the Romanian version of it? 
yes. Romanians having slavic names is quite common:there is a Romanian recension of Church Slavonic which was the official language for quite some time.
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« Reply #275 on: September 26, 2010, 05:51:20 PM »

Thanks for your comments, WetCatechumen. I've actually been at a Roman Catholic Mass where a priest "went off the deep end" and served a liturgy without a chausable....we've seen Fr. Daniel took off his phelonion to give out communion...then the fact that they are letting a total heretic like Ryden do *anything* in their churches...a lot of inconsistency in all of this.

I did ask Fr. Daniel what the story is, but he has not gotten back to me yet.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #276 on: September 26, 2010, 06:14:09 PM »

Having worked in a Roman Parish for a decade I can say that it is quite common to con-celebrate in just an alb and stole (at least in the parishes that I was familiar with), as they are all that are required.
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« Reply #277 on: September 26, 2010, 06:36:47 PM »

Having worked in a Roman Parish for a decade I can say that it is quite common to celebrate in just an alb and stole, as they are all that are required.

That is not true. A chasuble is required unless there is a large number of celebrants. I have been to ordinations, and only about half of the priests wear chasubles. However, every other Mass I've been to, the priest has worn a chasuble, with the exception of a certain religious parish I attend which is noted for its many abuses. The priests there will sometimes wear a stole over their religious habit, which is an abuse.

A stolen quote from Redemptionis Sacramentum:

Quote
123.] "The vestment proper to the Priest celebrant at Mass, and in other sacred actions directly connected with Mass unless otherwise indicated, is the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole".213 Likewise the Priest, in putting on the chasuble according to the rubrics, is not to omit the stole. All Ordinaries should be vigilant in order that all usage to the contrary be eradicated.

[124.] A faculty is given in the Roman Missal for the Priest concelebrants at Mass other than the principal concelebrant (who should always put on a chasuble of the prescribed color), for a just reason such as a large number of concelebrants or a lack of vestments, to omit "the chasuble, using the stole over the alb".214 Where a need of this kind can be foreseen, however, provision should be made for it insofar as possible. Out of necessity the concelebrants other than the principal celebrant may even put on white chasubles. For the rest, the norms of the liturgical books are to be observed.

It's an abuse. Furthermore, priests who are at Mass but do not concelebrate will sometimes dress in this fashion licitly.
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« Reply #278 on: September 26, 2010, 06:41:17 PM »

Thanks for your comments, WetCatechumen. I've actually been at a Roman Catholic Mass where a priest "went off the deep end" and served a liturgy without a chausable....we've seen Fr. Daniel took off his phelonion to give out communion...then the fact that they are letting a total heretic like Ryden do *anything* in their churches...a lot of inconsistency in all of this.

I did ask Fr. Daniel what the story is, but he has not gotten back to me yet.

Fr Anastasios

I've been to those too, sadly. As you can see in my post above, it is an abuse. A parish run by Dominicans attached to my University often has daily mass where the priest will celebrate with only a stole over his habit. They do wear chasubles on Sunday, but they wear their stoles over their chasubles.

Yes, I agree that there is a lot of inconsistency. However, it is likely that Ryden doesn't know the difference between a priest standing near the altar while another priest celebrates and an actual concelebration. It would still be scandalous, however, for Fr. Daniel to allow Fr. Rolf behind the iconostasis. I choose to believe this until I see evidence to the contrary.
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« Reply #279 on: September 26, 2010, 06:41:56 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
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« Reply #280 on: September 26, 2010, 07:04:45 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.

Of course, please realize that these feeling may be completely unjustified on my part, and I should not have emotionally reacted that way. I only wanted you to know how I feel. However, it does not mean that it wasn't okay for you to say what you did. I just didn't like it, and I definitely shouldn't.

Rock and Roll and altars girls are the least of my worries, honestly, when it comes to liturgical abuses. It shows you what a sad state we are in. Please pray for us.
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« Reply #281 on: September 26, 2010, 07:04:50 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
Yes.
I wholeheatedly agree. I don't know what happened to the RCC after Vatican II.
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« Reply #282 on: September 26, 2010, 07:09:54 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.
I think it is a legitimate concern of the Orthodox, expecially when Catholics are talking about reunion. Why is it not fair for faithful Orthodox Christians to ask what they are supposed to be uniting with? And are they supposed to just accept the Catholic liturgy with its dancing girls, its puppet Masses, its rock and roll music, etc.
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« Reply #283 on: September 26, 2010, 07:23:50 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.
I think it is a legitimate concern of the Orthodox, expecially when Catholics are talking about reunion. Why is it not fair for faithful Orthodox Christians to ask what they are supposed to be uniting with? And are they supposed to just accept the Catholic liturgy with its dancing girls, its puppet Masses, its rock and roll music, etc.
It's a wholly legitimate concern. I encourage criticism of the abuse from our Orthodox brethren.
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« Reply #284 on: September 26, 2010, 07:41:12 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.
I think it is a legitimate concern of the Orthodox, expecially when Catholics are talking about reunion. Why is it not fair for faithful Orthodox Christians to ask what they are supposed to be uniting with? And are they supposed to just accept the Catholic liturgy with its dancing girls, its puppet Masses, its rock and roll music, etc.
It's a wholly legitimate concern. I encourage criticism of the abuse from our Orthodox brethren.
My cure is sever all  Dialogue with  Rome, let Rome go its own way ,whatever that is...Holy Orthodoxy  should concentrate converting the whole world instead.... These talks with Rome lead no where. Rome  loves it's power to much to change...As Christ says cut the Defective Member off ....
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« Reply #285 on: September 26, 2010, 09:36:08 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.

Of course, please realize that these feeling may be completely unjustified on my part, and I should not have emotionally reacted that way. I only wanted you to know how I feel. However, it does not mean that it wasn't okay for you to say what you did. I just didn't like it, and I definitely shouldn't.

Rock and Roll and altars girls are the least of my worries, honestly, when it comes to liturgical abuses. It shows you what a sad state we are in. Please pray for us.

It is not my intention to offend you and your fellow co-religionists. I was only trying to put into words the difficult circumstances that I had to endure. You are correct that these are not the worst of offenses. That in of itself is a problem. I could give worse examples I have been privy to but I would rather not go down that road. Forgive me if I offended you. I will pray for you. Please pray for me.
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« Reply #286 on: September 26, 2010, 10:13:26 PM »

An abuse in a Roman parish???! Of course I could have been confused by the jarring sounds of the Rock and Roll mass, The 20 girl altar servers etc.
I often make fun of the abuses that happen in the Catholic Church, but due to my insecurities concerning the fact that your liturgy is in order and ours is not, I feel as if you are being unnecessarily sarcastic and I am a little bit offended.

Of course, please realize that these feeling may be completely unjustified on my part, and I should not have emotionally reacted that way. I only wanted you to know how I feel. However, it does not mean that it wasn't okay for you to say what you did. I just didn't like it, and I definitely shouldn't.

Rock and Roll and altars girls are the least of my worries, honestly, when it comes to liturgical abuses. It shows you what a sad state we are in. Please pray for us.

It is not my intention to offend you and your fellow co-religionists. I was only trying to put into words the difficult circumstances that I had to endure. You are correct that these are not the worst of offenses. That in of itself is a problem. I could give worse examples I have been privy to but I would rather not go down that road. Forgive me if I offended you. I will pray for you. Please pray for me.
No worries. Again, I wouldn't have these insecurities if my Church didn't do such a miserable job with its Liturgy some time.

And yes, I have seen some bad ones, and heard of much worse.
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« Reply #287 on: September 27, 2010, 11:16:42 AM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry
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« Reply #288 on: September 27, 2010, 12:31:47 PM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry

This is a raunchy comment. 

Sometimes it is better to ask whether or not it is prudent.

There are still ladies in the world...in case you don't get out much.
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« Reply #289 on: September 27, 2010, 01:04:02 PM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry

I think you meant *cheap*, not "sheep", Peccatorum. Smiley "Sheep" are "ovelhas", and "ch" in English had the same pronunciation of "tch" in "tchau". Smiley

In Portuguese "sh" and "ch" have the same pronunciation, and many Brazilians do pronounce "cheap" and "sheep" exactly the same way, leading to this kind of misunderstanding. Nothing to see here, folks. Smiley
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« Reply #290 on: September 27, 2010, 01:17:23 PM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry

I think you meant *cheap*, not "sheep", Peccatorum. Smiley "Sheep" are "ovelhas", and "ch" in English had the same pronunciation of "tch" in "tchau". Smiley

In Portuguese "sh" and "ch" have the same pronunciation, and many Brazilians do pronounce "cheap" and "sheep" exactly the same way, leading to this kind of misunderstanding. Nothing to see here, folks. Smiley

Well the last laugh is on ME!!...I should have seen that and did not!

Sorry 'bout that!!...and thanks for making it all clear Fabio!

M.
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« Reply #291 on: September 27, 2010, 07:18:20 PM »

There are a lot of bishops in the Catholic Church; it's inevitable that you're going to find one approving wacky things from time to time. Considering that bishops have approved clown masses I'm not sure why you find the idea that a couple of them approved of Vassula Ryden so hard to believe.

I've seen this phrase mentioned a few times, it's almost become a cliche. And yet, sometimes one needs to be reminded of events such as this one:
http://www.sanctepater.com/2010/01/cardinal-schonborns-mass.html

The "celebrant" is Cardinal Schoenborn. The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!), and made the rounds at a couple of Catholic blogs. The video is well worth sitting through.

Schoenborn has stepped into it again regarding Medjugorje, sanctioning and welcoming their visionaries during "apparition time" at his Vienna cathedral, even though the local bishop of Mostar has forbidden any such activity in his diocese within the local churches of Bosnia. "This isn't collegial" is a phrase that's showing up on a few blogs,  but there's no reasoning that will satisfy supporters of suspect apparitions. Te Deum, Patrick Madrid's blog and Rorate Caeli have already sunk their teeth into the cardinal's latest incident.
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« Reply #292 on: September 27, 2010, 07:26:43 PM »

However sensational, it is always worth noting that as with much of Orthodox "critique" of Catholics and the Catholic Church...the sensational is presented as normative,  while ignoring that boring majority of devout Catholics attending spiritually nourishing liturgies.



There are a lot of bishops in the Catholic Church; it's inevitable that you're going to find one approving wacky things from time to time. Considering that bishops have approved clown masses I'm not sure why you find the idea that a couple of them approved of Vassula Ryden so hard to believe.

I've seen this phrase mentioned a few times, it's almost become a cliche. And yet, sometimes one needs to be reminded of events such as this one:
http://www.sanctepater.com/2010/01/cardinal-schonborns-mass.html

The "celebrant" is Cardinal Schoenborn. The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!), and made the rounds at a couple of Catholic blogs. The video is well worth sitting through.

Schoenborn has stepped into it again regarding Medjugorje, sanctioning and welcoming their visionaries during "apparition time" at his Vienna cathedral, even though the local bishop of Mostar has forbidden any such activity in his diocese within the local churches of Bosnia. "This isn't collegial" is a phrase that's showing up on a few blogs,  but there's no reasoning that will satisfy supporters of suspect apparitions. Te Deum, Patrick Madrid's blog and Rorate Caeli have already sunk their teeth into the cardinal's latest incident.

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« Reply #293 on: September 27, 2010, 07:53:07 PM »

However sensational, it is always worth noting that as with much of Orthodox "critique" of Catholics and the Catholic Church...the sensational is presented as normative,  while ignoring that boring majority of devout Catholics attending spiritually nourishing liturgies.


The problem is the "sensational" is but a symptom of a much deeper and more pervasive illness.
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« Reply #294 on: September 27, 2010, 08:27:29 PM »

However sensational, it is always worth noting that as with much of Orthodox "critique" of Catholics and the Catholic Church...the sensational is presented as normative,  while ignoring that boring majority of devout Catholics attending spiritually nourishing liturgies.


The problem is the "sensational" is but a symptom of a much deeper and more pervasive illness.

Can you be more specific please.

M.
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« Reply #295 on: September 28, 2010, 12:13:26 AM »

The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!),
There are a whole lot of Catholic Masses like that. For example, here is a Mass celebrated by Roman Catholic bishop Remi de Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Here is Stephen Colbert doing a liturgical dance routine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc
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« Reply #296 on: September 28, 2010, 12:28:23 AM »

Quote
Here is Stephen Colbert doing a liturgical dance routine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc


I like ,It's so funny.....Ha Ha Ha  Grin....Is this Guy Catholic and he Happened to wittiness a liturgical dance,  and now is Making Fun of it...... Huh

Quotes edited - Michał Kalina
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #297 on: September 28, 2010, 12:41:42 AM »

They had liturgical dancing at a parish in London, Ontario when I was younger. We walked out and didn't bother to stay until the end. Any parish and any service that has liturgical dancing is not worth attending. The priest once gave a verbal dressing down of parishioners who put less and less into the collection plate (as a reaction to liturgical inanities or what not). Hey, if it hits them in the wallet, they'll notice.

Remi de Roo was one of the most liberal Canadian bishops. Back then, you would hear a lot about social justice, nuclear war (i.e. White House is bad), poverty - although they were often very quiet if those social  justice concerns included abortion. They used to beat the drums on those issues, with a chorus of supporters on newspapers like "Catholic New Times" . Some of the same prelates presided over the liturgical destruction that went on in their dioceses and a few of them covered up abuse as well, shuffling priests around from parish to parish. I recall that Thomas Gumbleton of Detroit was the essentially the American counterpart to de Roo. There was a newspaper debate between de Roo and future Catholic convert Conrad Black where he took the bishop to task over their support for socialism.
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« Reply #298 on: September 28, 2010, 12:53:38 AM »

A lawyer in the local paper made an astounding claim. He represented some female victims in the abuse scandal, and cited statements that the accused priest made apparently in the 1970s, to wit, that  "altar girls" were coming to the Church, and that it was the new, hip modern thing. But the real motivation (according to the lawyer) was that altar girls was the chief vehicle for heterosexually inclined priests to be in proximity with victims of the opposite sex. This is possibly the creepiest thing I have ever heard regarding the introduction of the practice. Altar girls finally got Vatican approval by the Venerable John Paul II. Most of the arguments that I've come across defending the Vatican were along the lines that if they cracked down on liturgical or doctrinal abuses, entire wings of the church would fall into schism. So, rather than watching their church go into schism, they'd wait for the Vatican II fossils to retire. The JP II episcopal appointees were a mixed bag - Roger Mahony for example (who was key in getting some Ratzinger books to the American market).
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« Reply #299 on: September 28, 2010, 12:59:32 AM »

The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!),
There are a whole lot of Catholic Masses like that. For example, here is a Mass celebrated by Roman Catholic bishop Remi de Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Here is Stephen Colbert doing a liturgical dance routine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc


Cheesy

Wow. That was amazing. Thank you Stephen for making it look as ridiculous as it is.
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« Reply #300 on: September 28, 2010, 08:55:54 AM »

A lawyer in the local paper made an astounding claim. He represented some female victims in the abuse scandal, and cited statements that the accused priest made apparently in the 1970s, to wit, that  "altar girls" were coming to the Church, and that it was the new, hip modern thing. But the real motivation (according to the lawyer) was that altar girls was the chief vehicle for heterosexually inclined priests to be in proximity with victims of the opposite sex. This is possibly the creepiest thing I have ever heard regarding the introduction of the practice. Altar girls finally got Vatican approval by the Venerable John Paul II. Most of the arguments that I've come across defending the Vatican were along the lines that if they cracked down on liturgical or doctrinal abuses, entire wings of the church would fall into schism. So, rather than watching their church go into schism, they'd wait for the Vatican II fossils to retire. The JP II episcopal appointees were a mixed bag - Roger Mahony for example (who was key in getting some Ratzinger books to the American market).


IF you were building your retirement package from revenue gleaned from the Catholic Church, would you not try to exaggerate the situation to your own and your client's advantage?

Are you really going to tell me that attorneys in the United States are more honest and moral than the vast majority of Catholic priests?

I come from a family of attorneys and priests so be careful how you answer this.... Smiley

Mary
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« Reply #301 on: September 28, 2010, 09:05:27 AM »

I don't think the lawyer is any more honest than the rest of them, but the notion that introducing altar girls was guided by predatory motivations, as opposed to the fashionably modernist, was something that I found believable.
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« Reply #302 on: September 28, 2010, 09:15:02 AM »

I don't think the lawyer is any more honest than the rest of them, but the notion that introducing altar girls was guided by predatory motivations, as opposed to the fashionably modernist, was something that I found believable.

Then you have my sympathies John, because you can only be part of the problem rather than its solution.

There are far too many devout Catholic priests and laypeople who are not going to fold or crumble or Dox, for it to be in your best interest to join those who seek more to destroy the Church than they do to aid the victims.

Some day when your films of odd masses are not just 20, 30,40 and 50 years old but they will be 100 years old and more, then the stinger will be out of your bee....and most of the Orthodox will have their wish:

"Better the Turban than the Tiara"

In Christ,

Mary
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« Reply #303 on: September 28, 2010, 09:18:35 AM »

I don't think the lawyer is any more honest than the rest of them, but the notion that introducing altar girls was guided by predatory motivations, as opposed to the fashionably modernist, was something that I found believable.

I first met altar girls at the funeral of an old friend's father, a school teacher, and that was back in the days when the New Zealand Church was defying the Vatican by having them (girls, not funerals  :-)

We had 4 beautiful tall teenage girls whose Franciscan type garb could not have been better designed to show them off as tempting morsels.  Among the men at the after cemetery bunfight the talk was all about the nubile girls on the altar and I would be pretty sure that some lapsed Catholics in that parish started attending Mass again.
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« Reply #304 on: September 28, 2010, 09:20:54 AM »

I don't think the lawyer is any more honest than the rest of them, but the notion that introducing altar girls was guided by predatory motivations, as opposed to the fashionably modernist, was something that I found believable.

Then you have my sympathies John, because you can only be part of the problem rather than its solution.

There are far too many devout Catholic priests and laypeople who are not going to fold or crumble or Dox, for it to be in your best interest to join those who seek more to destroy the Church than they do to aid the victims.

Some day when your films of odd masses are not just 20, 30,40 and 50 years old but they will be 100 years old and more, then the stinger will be out of your bee....and most of the Orthodox will have their wish:

"Better the Turban than the Tiara"

In Christ,


Is anybody keeping a notebook of Mary's prophecies?   Cheesy Grin laugh
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« Reply #305 on: September 28, 2010, 10:40:58 AM »

There are a lot of bishops in the Catholic Church; it's inevitable that you're going to find one approving wacky things from time to time. Considering that bishops have approved clown masses I'm not sure why you find the idea that a couple of them approved of Vassula Ryden so hard to believe.

I've seen this phrase mentioned a few times, it's almost become a cliche. And yet, sometimes one needs to be reminded of events such as this one:
http://www.sanctepater.com/2010/01/cardinal-schonborns-mass.html

The "celebrant" is Cardinal Schoenborn. The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!), and made the rounds at a couple of Catholic blogs. The video is well worth sitting through.

Schoenborn has stepped into it again regarding Medjugorje, sanctioning and welcoming their visionaries during "apparition time" at his Vienna cathedral, even though the local bishop of Mostar has forbidden any such activity in his diocese within the local churches of Bosnia. "This isn't collegial" is a phrase that's showing up on a few blogs,  but there's no reasoning that will satisfy supporters of suspect apparitions. Te Deum, Patrick Madrid's blog and Rorate Caeli have already sunk their teeth into the cardinal's latest incident.


To those who do not speak German, the sign is telling the people "Please write a prayer to God on the card and attach it to the balloon." It might have made more sense (relatively speaking) if it was an outdoor mass. Reminds me of the Buddhist prayer wheels.
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« Reply #306 on: September 28, 2010, 10:46:03 AM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry

I think you meant *cheap*, not "sheep", Peccatorum. Smiley "Sheep" are "ovelhas", and "ch" in English had the same pronunciation of "tch" in "tchau". Smiley

In Portuguese "sh" and "ch" have the same pronunciation, and many Brazilians do pronounce "cheap" and "sheep" exactly the same way, leading to this kind of misunderstanding. Nothing to see here, folks. Smiley
It reminded me of the line from Woody Allen's movie, "Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex":  "My name is Stavros Milos, and I am in love with a sheeps.  Daisy!!!!!!" Grin
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« Reply #307 on: September 29, 2010, 07:00:54 AM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry

This is a raunchy comment. 

Sometimes it is better to ask whether or not it is prudent.
I know a few, indeed.


There are still ladies in the world...in case you don't get out much.
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« Reply #308 on: September 29, 2010, 07:02:18 AM »

Well, altar girls are a necessity in the most humble parishes here in Brazil, since the guys only want to party at "samba" and "baile funk", to have easy, sheep sex. That's why there are few new priests in the roman catholic church, and almost everyone at my age in the orthodox parishes I knew are married and wish to be priests. That's terrible, WE ARE BACK TO THE '70 HERE!!!!!!! Cry

I think you meant *cheap*, not "sheep", Peccatorum. Smiley "Sheep" are "ovelhas", and "ch" in English had the same pronunciation of "tch" in "tchau". Smiley

In Portuguese "sh" and "ch" have the same pronunciation, and many Brazilians do pronounce "cheap" and "sheep" exactly the same way, leading to this kind of misunderstanding. Nothing to see here, folks. Smiley

Thank you. My bad...  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #309 on: September 29, 2010, 07:25:58 AM »

Dude, I'ver seen Carlton Banks performing a dance like that in the Fresh Prince!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROEytcUmXvQ&feature=related

Serious, that's why there is a growing movement in catholic church called Missa Tridentina (tridentine mass), to fight these abuses.
As I said before, I am not against the guitar masses, but when we are before God (all praises to Him), we must do so in heart contricton, and a priest cannot do whatever he wants, with the Gospel being more important than the ritual as an excuse, because if he turns the mass into a show, the people are not there for God, but for entertainment (essa vai para o Padre Marcelo e suas igrejas sempre lotadas).
Ad Majorem Gloriam Dei.
The mass is essentially a rock mass with balloons (!),
There are a whole lot of Catholic Masses like that. For example, here is a Mass celebrated by Roman Catholic bishop Remi de Roo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU

Here is Stephen Colbert doing a liturgical dance routine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASYa-Wkroc

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« Reply #310 on: November 08, 2010, 10:30:08 AM »

a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.


I read the news that the priest was deposed from priesthood by his bishop, for this co-celebration with a romano-catholic.
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« Reply #311 on: November 08, 2010, 11:02:50 AM »

a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.


I read the news that the priest was deposed from priesthood by his bishop, for this co-celebration with a romano-catholic.
Amen! Amen! Amen!
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« Reply #312 on: November 08, 2010, 11:53:27 AM »

a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.


I read the news that the priest was deposed from priesthood by his bishop, for this co-celebration with a romano-catholic.

Can you provide a reference, even if not in English, with some pictures?
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« Reply #313 on: November 08, 2010, 12:44:17 PM »

Well, he appealed against the decision of the diocesan bishop to the metropolitan:http://www.antena3.ro/romania/preot-ortodox-dat-afara-din-cauza-unor-poze-postate-pe-facebook-112759.html
http://www.romanialibera.ro/actualitate/transilvania/pedeapsa-medievala-in-episcopia-din-caransebes-205050.html
The parish/village stands by the priest apparently-they claim there was no concelebration-having locked the church, forbidding the new priest sent by the bishop to go in and hold any service.
BTW
Had he concelebrated with the anti-Chalcedonians he would have suffered the same consequences according to the statues of the Romanian Church.
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« Reply #314 on: November 08, 2010, 01:29:07 PM »

Well, he appealed against the decision of the diocesan bishop to the metropolitan:http://www.antena3.ro/romania/preot-ortodox-dat-afara-din-cauza-unor-poze-postate-pe-facebook-112759.html
http://www.romanialibera.ro/actualitate/transilvania/pedeapsa-medievala-in-episcopia-din-caransebes-205050.html
The parish/village stands by the priest apparently-they claim there was no concelebration-having locked the church, forbidding the new priest sent by the bishop to go in and hold any service.

If true, I apologise bowed down before him, and pray that he be exonerated and reinstated.  I'd raise a question about the bishop laicizing an innocent man.

Quote
BTW
Had he concelebrated with the anti-Chalcedonians he would have suffered the same consequences according to the statues of the Romanian Church.
Something specific on that n the statutes of the BOR?
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