Author Topic: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions  (Read 1634 times)

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Offline gzt

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Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« on: June 25, 2014, 12:29:42 PM »
On another board which shall not be named but which I think several of you are on, I was interested in collecting opinions about evolution and Orthodoxy from Orthodox Christians. So I quickly whipped up a rather flawed survey that I would be interested in having your responses to. Feel free to give additional clarification of your views in the comments field of the survey or in this thread as well as in the comments here. I have - at the moment - around 40 responses, so I am probably not going to make any major modifications to this flawed, unscientific survey.

Survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19dtf7DFb9AQRxvFoUwCViMu7f5kH_OH-JS0Z8RxM_PQ/viewform

NOTE: please share your views, don't debate or argue. If you want to debate or whatever, I'm sure there can be another thread for that.

If you want to look at the graphs or read the responses, see here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19dtf7DFb9AQRxvFoUwCViMu7f5kH_OH-JS0Z8RxM_PQ/viewanalytics

NOTE: this is for entertainment purposes only.


Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2014, 12:32:42 PM »
NOTE: this is for entertainment purposes only.

Yet why am I not entertained.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2014, 12:37:07 PM »
I was entertained, well, at least for the 20 seconds that i reviewed the aggregate answers.  I note with interest that while I was mostly in the majority categories, I was much less confident in my opinions than most others were.
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Offline gzt

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2014, 12:37:57 PM »
Yeah, the thing that was surprising to me was the confidence. Then again, my own answers were pretty confident as well.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2014, 12:45:26 PM »
Oh there's just been more of this on the forum than I want to stomach.

I did take the survey and am impressed with the way you put it together. You seem wisely aware of a lot of options that usually escape the debate.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2014, 12:52:43 PM »
Oh there's just been more of this on the forum than I want to stomach.

I did take the survey and am impressed with the way you put it together. You seem wisely aware of a lot of options that usually escape the debate.
I think so too. The only one I struggled answering was the one on macroevolution as I would say that life developed in accordance with generally accepted evolutionary theory, but I would also say that God designed and played and active role. I'm not uncomfortable using the word "evolved" though, so I picked the other one.
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Offline gzt

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 12:58:14 PM »
Oh there's just been more of this on the forum than I want to stomach.

I did take the survey and am impressed with the way you put it together. You seem wisely aware of a lot of options that usually escape the debate.
I think so too. The only one I struggled answering was the one on macroevolution as I would say that life developed in accordance with generally accepted evolutionary theory, but I would also say that God designed and played and active role. I'm not uncomfortable using the word "evolved" though, so I picked the other one.
Yes, that was an attempt to give ID people who are very allergic to the word "evolution" an answer, but then it felt like that response would turn into a black hole sucking in all theistic evolutionists.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 04:47:20 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

I know this, that it takes 80+ humidity and 98F to hatch a Turkey.  (Usually 88%).

This means that a turkey has to sit on the egg sweating or you need an incubator with water dripping of the ceiling.

(We also raise Turkeys).

My children say "which came first, the chicken or the egg" - "It had to be the chicken, because something had to incubate the egg".

It's a delicate process, the turning, perfect temps, then "lock down" the last couple of days where the eggs can't move but have to be perfectly still and kept warm.

Turkeys (especially heritage type) have a VERY distinct and PICKY way of incubating eggs.

I refuse to believe that some critter other than a turkey, or turkey survival for that matter, could occur if the perfect creation of the Turkey and its methods of incubation didn't exist. 

Chicken incubation & hatching, is much different than turkey.

Man I'm talking a lot of farm today - but living on a farm you start understanding these things more. 
I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 04:51:22 PM »
You may understand farm stuff, but you don't understand evolutionary theory. However, I will refrain from any further argument per the OP's post.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 04:51:48 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2014, 05:03:44 PM »
Very interesting survey I have to say.

I'm not Orthodox, so I choose " Other " and made my choices.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2014, 05:41:58 PM »
My children say "which came first, the chicken or the egg" - "It had to be the chicken, because something had to incubate the egg".
You do know that the egg came first, right? Reptiles were laying eggs way before chickens were a gleam in an Archaeopteryx's eye.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 03:13:00 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

Macroevolution and microevolution are identical processes (evolution), with the difference of time.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2014, 03:24:15 PM »
Where does devolution fit into this?  I believe in DEVO.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2014, 03:31:57 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

Macroevolution and microevolution are identical processes (evolution), with the difference of time.
Stop making sense. This is oc.net.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 03:55:23 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

Macroevolution and microevolution are identical processes (evolution), with the difference of time.

I don't know if you mean to beg the question, or if you don't know the distinction. If it's the first case, you're on your own, but in the second case I can help you. Micro-evolution is change that can occur without modification of existing genetic matierial; macro-evolution is change that would require new genetic material. One is movement within the gene pool, so to speak; the other would broaden or move the pool. If this is unclear, please let me know.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2014, 04:31:57 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

Macroevolution and microevolution are identical processes (evolution), with the difference of time.

I don't know if you mean to beg the question, or if you don't know the distinction. If it's the first case, you're on your own, but in the second case I can help you. Micro-evolution is change that can occur without modification of existing genetic matierial; macro-evolution is change that would require new genetic material. One is movement within the gene pool, so to speak; the other would broaden or move the pool. If this is unclear, please let me know.

I am assuming based on my own fundamentalist background (perhaps incorrectly, admittedly), that when yesh says he doesn't believe in macroevolution, he means to say that he believes that variation can occur within a species, but is conflating macroevolution with speciation, which he does not believe in. In fact, microevolution and macroevolution are fundamentally the same process which occurs at different scales.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2014, 04:38:31 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

Macroevolution and microevolution are identical processes (evolution), with the difference of time.

I don't know if you mean to beg the question, or if you don't know the distinction. If it's the first case, you're on your own, but in the second case I can help you. Micro-evolution is change that can occur without modification of existing genetic matierial; macro-evolution is change that would require new genetic material. One is movement within the gene pool, so to speak; the other would broaden or move the pool. If this is unclear, please let me know.
All changes that occur in a species is a change in genetic material. Even in a single organism, genetic changes occur.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2014, 06:43:09 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

Macroevolution and microevolution are identical processes (evolution), with the difference of time.

I don't know if you mean to beg the question, or if you don't know the distinction. If it's the first case, you're on your own, but in the second case I can help you. Micro-evolution is change that can occur without modification of existing genetic matierial; macro-evolution is change that would require new genetic material. One is movement within the gene pool, so to speak; the other would broaden or move the pool. If this is unclear, please let me know.
All changes that occur in a species is a change in genetic material. Even in a single organism, genetic changes occur.

No, there's a fundamental difference between changes that occur with the routine assorting of alleles with reproduction and changes that would occur were new genetic information unknown to either parent stock to appear in an offspring. The first is often referred to in the literature with phrases such as "selecting for", the second with phrases such as "new adaptation." Perhaps the journal standard that arose in, oh, the '00s of referring to all alleles as mutations has obscured the difference for some readers; I don't know.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2014, 07:43:23 PM »
Both of those occur in cellular meiosis. During meiosis, you get both "melded" DNA which consists of parts of each DNA molecule and also new genetic information that did not exist in either parent organism. This is how you can breed a species (usually done with fruit flies) into two separate and distinct sub species that are no longer capable of successfully breeding with each other.  Further, genetic recombination is only one of several ways that new species can develop. Mutations, which as you mentioned, are a second way.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2014, 08:17:25 PM »
I think your observation amounts to little more than that genetic happenings occur at the genetic level of a cell's workings, which of course is true but immaterial to the distinction I'm making. I think your understanding of simple genetics theory is a muddle, but perhaps your expertise is just very specialized.

Back to Yeshuism's terminology: While I stand by a distinction between genetic events explicable by the Mendelian model and those that require e.g. mutations, and I even think it important, these terms themselves "macro-evolution" and "micro-evolution" are moot to it, since, as far as I know, they are Creationist apologetics terms coined by Henry Morris. For whatever reason I was just giving them the fairest spin I can.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Geh

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2014, 08:32:48 PM »
Evolution debates are the worst kind of debates next to the arguments for God debates.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2014, 08:34:27 PM »
Evolution debates are the worst kind of debates next to the arguments for God debates.

Welcome to OC.net.   Given the above statement you probably won't like it here much.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Geh

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Re: Unscientific survey on evolution opinions
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2014, 08:35:35 PM »
I don't believe in evolution - especially Macro.

I know this, that it takes 80+ humidity and 98F to hatch a Turkey.  (Usually 88%).

This means that a turkey has to sit on the egg sweating or you need an incubator with water dripping of the ceiling.

(We also raise Turkeys).

My children say "which came first, the chicken or the egg" - "It had to be the chicken, because something had to incubate the egg".

It's a delicate process, the turning, perfect temps, then "lock down" the last couple of days where the eggs can't move but have to be perfectly still and kept warm.

Turkeys (especially heritage type) have a VERY distinct and PICKY way of incubating eggs.

I refuse to believe that some critter other than a turkey, or turkey survival for that matter, could occur if the perfect creation of the Turkey and its methods of incubation didn't exist. 

Chicken incubation & hatching, is much different than turkey.

Man I'm talking a lot of farm today - but living on a farm you start understanding these things more. 
I've been revisiting this particular view on and off for the last few months. There's something more interesting here than whatever the natural sciences can explain.

I wish to return to a more wondrous world, regardless of how ignorant that may be.

Good for you.
Quote from: Nikolaostheservant
tonight you die of a heart attack in your sleep. your at the pearly gates wanting to get in but you have not been very good nor have you been very bad, sin wise the scales are even. so to break the tie God asks you to explain this post you made, what u gona say?