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Author Topic: Western Rite Presence in Chicago?  (Read 513 times) Average Rating: 0
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KostaC
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« on: June 24, 2014, 11:41:26 PM »

A few years ago, as I began to expand my horizons out of my tiny parish and into the wild, wild world of Orthodoxy on the North American continent, I was a bit upset that there was no Western Orthodox church in my city of 2.7 million. The closest Western Orthodox church as far as I can tell is in La Porte, Indiana. Because I live in Washington, D.C. for half the year, I was able to devote my time to Saint Gregory the Great's and visit when I can, I never thought too much about my hometown's lack of an option for Western Orthodox individuals. However, now, I'm starting to ask questions. Has there ever been a Western Rite Orthodox presence in Chicago? If yes, why did it disappear? If no, why not? I'm going to guess that someone out of the 2.7-odd million of us are Western Orthodox (I would be genuinely surprised if no one was), how are the needs of these Orthodox Christians met? Okay sure, they probably attend an Eastern Rite Orthodox parish and hope and wait for a church of their own, but that is not a permanent solution. On the contrary, it is an unideal one. Do any of my brothers and sisters in Christ in Chicago know of any Western Orthodox Christians in our city who want a home? I just cannot believe that there has been no need for a mission for Western Rite Orthodox Christians. Despite being a bastion of Catholicism, there is still a large Anglican and Protestant demographic in Chicago and the same dramatic events unfolding within the Anglican and Protestant communities are unfolding right here as well. I think thus that maybe, just maybe, it's time the City of Broad Shoulders broadened its horizon a bit.
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2014, 10:16:37 AM »

There are only around 20 WRO parishes if the AANA in the country with five alone in Texas.  You should not be shocked that there isn't one in Chicago.  New York and Massachusetts have a total of three WR parishes but none of them are located in NY City and Boston.
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2014, 11:19:11 AM »

There's lot of Western rite parishes all over Chicago. There's Latin Catholic churches everywhere, as well as Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc.

Orthodoxy's mostly an Eastern rite thing. No big deal. It's all a wash once it's in English anyway. You could start asking your Eastern rite church to say "World Without End" instead of "Unto Ages of Ages" if it'd make you feel better.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2014, 12:20:09 PM »

For a sane answer:

No, there is no WRO in Chicago, nor ever has AFAIK-at least canonical (during the hiatus between Bp. Nichols of Washington's deposition and the reception of his successor Archpriest Alexander back into Orthodoxy, the HQ was in Chicago.  Somewhere I have an old newspaper clipping from the 50's or 60's on it).  There is also Holy Incarnation in Detroit and Christ the King Mission in southern Illinois/Little Egypt, 300 miles away, and ROCOR had (has?) a mission in Peoria I hear.

Fr. David of blessed memory, the priest of St. Augustine's in Denver, retired to All Saints in Chicago, and had WRO services in his home chapel in Crystal Lake, but that's as close as it has come.

There are those who would be/would have become WRO, if it has been presented as an option.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 12:23:33 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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KostaC
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2014, 12:23:57 PM »

There's lot of Western rite parishes all over Chicago. There's Latin Catholic churches everywhere, as well as Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc.

Orthodoxy's mostly an Eastern rite thing. No big deal. It's all a wash once it's in English anyway. You could start asking your Eastern rite church to say "World Without End" instead of "Unto Ages of Ages" if it'd make you feel better.

So can I ask, what do you get out of being such an ass? Does it make you feel better about yourself or what?

You know exactly what I said, but I'd like to know why you thought answering the question in an obnoxious matter would help me or yourself.
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2014, 12:53:42 PM »

As far as I know, New York, so big it has practically everything (such as a Russian Catholic parish), has no WRO churches, so I'm not surprised Chicago doesn't either. Thanks for the history, ialmisry. I understand Alexander had one of his parishes near me, in Mount Holly, NJ, in the '50s, and that it's long gone.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2014, 01:08:44 PM »

As far as I know, New York, so big it has practically everything (such as a Russian Catholic parish), has no WRO churches, so I'm not surprised Chicago doesn't either. Thanks for the history, ialmisry. I understand Alexander had one of his parishes near me, in Mount Holly, NJ, in the '50s, and that it's long gone.
LOL. The only place that doesn't seem to have "Russian Catholic" parishes is Russia.  It helps that most such parishes have no Russians.

Long gone matters only depending on where they went. Given that Mount Holly has been losing 1% of its population every year for decades, the WRO aren't the only thing gone it seems.
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2014, 01:17:40 PM »

"Russian Catholic" sounds like a paradox or some Zen riddle. Basically like angular square.
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2014, 02:01:16 PM »

Sure, like "Italian Methodist." Unusual.

In the late 1800s some Russian intelligentsia read their way into converting to Catholicism so the Pope started a mission in Russia that never took off and that the Soviets destroyed.

As of 15 years ago there were two or three little Russian Byzantine Catholic parishes in Russia; ex-Orthodox priests and congregations who converted on their own. The Catholic Church keeps quiet about them.

The few Russian Catholic parishes in the West - New York City, El Segundo (LA), San Francisco, one in Australia, and I think one in Paris - were failed attempts in the '30s-'50s to convert Russians (the San Francisco one had a few Russian families); their congregations are non-Russians who don't proselytize. They're born Roman Riters who switched: they love everything Russian and Orthodox but love being Catholic too.
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 09:13:45 AM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 09:55:22 AM »

Sure, like "Italian Methodist." Unusual.

In the late 1800s some Russian intelligentsia read their way into converting to Catholicism so the Pope started a mission in Russia that never took off and that the Soviets destroyed.

As of 15 years ago there were two or three little Russian Byzantine Catholic parishes in Russia; ex-Orthodox priests and congregations who converted on their own. The Catholic Church keeps quiet about them.

The few Russian Catholic parishes in the West - New York City, El Segundo (LA), San Francisco, one in Australia, and I think one in Paris - were failed attempts in the '30s-'50s to convert Russians (the San Francisco one had a few Russian families); their congregations are non-Russians who don't proselytize. They're born Roman Riters who switched: they love everything Russian and Orthodox but love being Catholic too.
then they should join the Russian Catholic Church, Pat. Kirill's.

Btw, I know some Italian Methodists and a LOT of Hispanic ones.  I noticed how your former supreme pontiff switched his tone on minority faiths and ecclesiastical communities from when he was in Eastern Europe from when he was in Latin America.

On the Italian Methodists:
http://www.metodisti.it/cms/
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/evangelical-methodist-church-in-italy
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:04:27 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2014, 09:56:01 AM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?
Yes on both counts.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2014, 11:01:59 AM »

Sure, like "Italian Methodist." Unusual.
They exist. My Italian father is a former RC that left after Vatican II, now Methodist. With their recent scandals, I'm praying he comes to Orthodoxy. Smiley

Quote
In the late 1800s some Russian intelligentsia read their way into converting to Catholicism so the Pope started a mission in Russia that never took off and that the Soviets destroyed.

As of 15 years ago there were two or three little Russian Byzantine Catholic parishes in Russia; ex-Orthodox priests and congregations who converted on their own. The Catholic Church keeps quiet about them.

The few Russian Catholic parishes in the West - New York City, El Segundo (LA), San Francisco, one in Australia, and I think one in Paris - were failed attempts in the '30s-'50s to convert Russians (the San Francisco one had a few Russian families); their congregations are non-Russians who don't proselytize. They're born Roman Riters who switched: they love everything Russian and Orthodox but love being Catholic too.

The last bit sounds like the Maronite congregation here in Roanoke. More disgruntled Latins than "cradle Maronites", if you will.

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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2014, 11:24:07 AM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?
Yes on both counts.

IIRC there used to be some priest in Moscow who celebrated mass in Slavonic.
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2014, 11:54:04 AM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?
[/quote

You can find a Latin/Slavonic Tridentine Mass and a Latin/Russian Canon Missae here (under the Liturgy / Mass section) . Whether they are ever used or not,  I don't know.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html
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ialmisry
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2014, 12:23:27 PM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?

You can find a Latin/Slavonic Tridentine Mass and a Latin/Russian Canon Missae here (under the Liturgy / Mass section) . Whether they are ever used or not,  I don't know.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html
Btw, the Croatians on the coast have had a Slavonic Roman missal since forever.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 12:23:42 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2014, 12:34:04 PM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?

You can find a Latin/Slavonic Tridentine Mass and a Latin/Russian Canon Missae here (under the Liturgy / Mass section) . Whether they are ever used or not,  I don't know.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html
Btw, the Croatians on the coast have had a Slavonic Roman missal since forever.

The Roman Missal was used in (Eastern) Syriac for a short period in India while the Portuguese were "lending us a helping hand". 
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ialmisry
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2014, 02:01:40 PM »

Does the Roman Missal exist in Russian (or at least the Ordo Missae)? And how about Greek?

You can find a Latin/Slavonic Tridentine Mass and a Latin/Russian Canon Missae here (under the Liturgy / Mass section) . Whether they are ever used or not,  I don't know.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Liturgics.html
Btw, the Croatians on the coast have had a Slavonic Roman missal since forever.

The Roman Missal was used in (Eastern) Syriac for a short period in India while the Portuguese were "lending us a helping hand". 
interesting, seeing as ya'll didn't speak Syriac in India anymore than the West spoke Church Latin at the time.

Too many times a helping hand is
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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