Author Topic: Upon reunion  (Read 1826 times)

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Online Wandile

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Upon reunion
« on: June 23, 2014, 02:50:47 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?

« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 02:53:02 PM by Wandile »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2014, 03:14:32 PM »
Unlikely scenario and it will never happen, but I'll give it a try.

In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

I suppose both would stay on till death and then one successor will be chosen.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Africa will be in the jurisdiction of Alexandria, but I think that most of them can keep on using the rite they're accustomed to.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Nah, the Orthodox Church does without a unified calendar and canon just fine.

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?

Not if they don't want to. I'd be surprised if this ever came up, or would come up, as a serious point of contention in ecumenical talks.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2014, 07:28:29 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2014, 07:54:52 PM »
I think when the day comes that this will become a concern, we will have bigger issues to worry about like whose jurisdiction does Alpha Centauri fall under and where are we all going to live now that the Sun is about to go supernova.
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2014, 07:59:43 PM »
The utter demoralization of Rome, dependent on same of the West as world power, would have to transpire before reunion, the way it looks to me.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2014, 09:29:33 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

In the histories of these three, what's the longest a schism went on before being healed?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2014, 09:58:39 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO

I can't say for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if there have been a million unions just in my lifetime -- be they EO-to-C, C-to-EO, OO-to-C, C-to-OO, EO-to-OO, or OO-to-EO. I guess the question is, what does the above quote mean? Complete EO-to-C and OO-to-C movement?
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2014, 10:08:42 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

In the histories of these three, what's the longest a schism went on before being healed?

One thousand five hundred sixty-three years and still going...
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2014, 10:20:58 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

In the histories of these three, what's the longest a schism went on before being healed?

One thousand five hundred sixty-three years and still going...

I should have phrased that better. I'm thinking about significant schisms that occurred in the past and have already been healed. The Acacian schism of 484–519 is the first example that comes to mind.
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2014, 10:21:26 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

In the histories of these three, what's the longest a schism went on before being healed?

One thousand five hundred sixty-three years and still going...

How much time is that in Purgatory?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2014, 10:23:50 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

In the histories of these three, what's the longest a schism went on before being healed?

I believe that would be 395 years. Schism started in 1054, was healed by the Council of Florence 1449.

P.S. You were looking for polemics, right?

(:D)
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Online Wandile

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2014, 11:05:21 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO

I can't say for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if there have been a million unions just in my lifetime -- be they EO-to-C, C-to-EO, OO-to-C, C-to-OO, EO-to-OO, or OO-to-EO. I guess the question is, what does the above quote mean? Complete EO-to-C and OO-to-C movement?

it simply means a unified church luke the first three centuries of Church history. I'm not gonna say who returns to who as that's not the issue of the questions.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2014, 08:38:53 AM »
it simply means a unified church luke the first three centuries of Church history. I'm not gonna say who returns to who as that's not the issue of the questions.

As you wish. :)

But as I said, there have been (something like)

a million unions just in my lifetime -- be they EO-to-C, C-to-EO, OO-to-C, C-to-OO, EO-to-OO, or OO-to-EO.
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2014, 08:55:12 AM »
Unlikely scenario and it will never happen, but I'll give it a try.



« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 09:08:27 AM by Raylight »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2014, 10:24:42 PM »
Unlikely scenario and it will never happen, but I'll give it a try.




In all honesty, I think you need to be a little patient with our Orthodox brother-posters on this point. Frankly, if you spend much time around Catholic-Orthodox discussions, you'll hear a basically non-stop series of predictions about how Catholics and Orthodox are going to get together, yada yada yada. (I'm Catholic but even I get pretty sick of it ... although, it strikes me that if someday I spend a lot of time around Catholic-Anglican discussions, I'll get pretty sick of predictions, from Anglicans, about how Catholics and Anglicans are going to get together.) So perhaps overreactions like "it will never happen" are somewhat understandable.
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Offline Avdima

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2014, 10:39:57 PM »
The Catholic-Orthodox reunion has already happened. Okay in heaven but not Earth just yet.  ;)

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2014, 11:50:53 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

I believe people on here have said in the past they (Greek and Coptic) would both reign until one died, and iirc the Coptic Pope ultimately takes the reigns so to speak.

Quote
Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

For the biblical canon, no. For the calendar, idk.

Quote
Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?

It would be nice, even if just to get polemical Latin apologetics to quit lashing out at the East in their defense against Protestants, but ultimately it's fine as a Latin-only custom.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:52:11 PM by Nephi »

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2014, 12:35:35 AM »
Like others, in this seemingly impossible instance, I agree I think it makes most sense that a new patriarch would be elected to replace them both in some kind of instance, perhaps at death or other sort of thing. But I  talk with others, and say that it would make more sense that they stay separate and continue separate patriarchates. Personally I just think it makes sense not to have two patriarchs for one place
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2014, 03:06:29 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

Only on internet forums.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2014, 07:20:31 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

Only on internet forums.

Not entirely. Nor can the phenomenon be pinned entirely on Catholics, as some of your fellow Orthodox seem to do. After all, wasn't it Dr. David Bentley Hart who wrote "The Myth of Schism"?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2014, 07:23:33 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

This question sure is a sign of the times. I guess people don't even truly believe that schism exists any longer.

Only on internet forums.

Not entirely. Nor can the phenomenon be pinned entirely on Catholics, as some of your fellow Orthodox seem to do. After all, wasn't it Dr. David Bentley Hart who wrote "The Myth of Schism"?

Just because a few people, relatively speaking, in our respective communions wait with bated breath for inter-communion, it doesn't mean that the schism didn't happen or is not a big deal.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2014, 08:03:18 AM »
Not entirely. Nor can the phenomenon be pinned entirely on Catholics, as some of your fellow Orthodox seem to do. After all, wasn't it Dr. David Bentley Hart who wrote "The Myth of Schism"?

Just because a few people, relatively speaking, in our respective communions wait with bated breath for inter-communion, it doesn't mean that the schism didn't happen or is not a big deal.

I agree. I'm not claiming that the schism didn't happen or is not a big deal -- which again speaks to my same basic point: There are unionists (or "schism-deniers" if you prefer) among Catholics and among Orthodox, and at the same time there are non-unionists among Catholics and among Orthodox.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2014, 09:12:48 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?



When talk of Union comes up on this forum, I always like to pose the question: "And just what would make a union?"  "what beliefs or dogmas would have to be compromised", "can you live in a world of parallel theologies and still be considered 'as one' ?".  So, although its fun discussing this possibility over coffee , the idea that this will happen any time this side of heaven is pure speculation.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2014, 09:35:36 AM »
That's the point. Unlike what many people seem to believe, the differences between the churches are not like arguments between brothers that ultimately are related to their behavior and not to a concrete reality. Our differences are more like different scientific researches claiming to have found facts that cannot both be true at the same time. As sad as it may be, either one of us or both are wrong, but that we both are right is impossible. That's why sometimes people want to leave behind the rigours of clear definitions for "fraternity" and all. True, two scientists with different "facts" can be friends, but tells nothing about the reality of what each believe to be true.

All in all, unionist ecumenism is just a symptom of an age where no Christian church has political hegemony or power to persecute the other while at the same time all churches are equally persecuted by a plethora of anti-christian movements and there is a lot of PR to be gained from showing off as eager to "reconcile" as if the differences were just misunderstandings. When one or all of these factors change, I am pretty sure we will go back to the old "I'm right, you're wrong, that justifies erradicating you" habit or at least some form of isolationism.

What I wish is that we could live in the best of two worlds: "I'm right, you're wrong, I hope at some point you repent and God forgives your sins but you have the right to be wrong and to live accordingly, I hope all the best for you, see you later at the cafe after we go to our respective churches". There you have serious faith, realism, real dialogue, respect, tolerance. Just about everything that unionist ecumenism avoids.

In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?



When talk of Union comes up on this forum, I always like to pose the question: "And just what would make a union?"  "what beliefs or dogmas would have to be compromised", "can you live in a world of parallel theologies and still be considered 'as one' ?".  So, although its fun discussing this possibility over coffee , the idea that this will happen any time this side of heaven is pure speculation.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 10:02:02 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2014, 09:50:50 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?



When talk of Union comes up on this forum, I always like to pose the question: "And just what would make a union?"  "what beliefs or dogmas would have to be compromised", "can you live in a world of parallel theologies and still be considered 'as one' ?".  So, although its fun discussing this possibility over coffee , the idea that this will happen any time this side of heaven is pure speculation.

With all due respect... This is irrelevant to the questions asked
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2014, 10:14:32 AM »
Lets refocus the question to: when OO and EO reunite and RC and Anglicans reunite, what will the respective Churches look like? Will the RC Church elect Her Most Holiness Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori as Pope and will she kiss as many babies as Pope Francis?  Will the monks at the Holy Sepulchre finally stop hitting each other with brooms?  Penetrating questions indeed...
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2014, 11:15:42 AM »
Lets refocus the question to: when OO and EO reunite and RC and Anglicans reunite, what will the respective Churches look like? Will the RC Church elect Her Most Holiness Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori as Pope and will she kiss as many babies as Pope Francis?  Will the monks at the Holy Sepulchre finally stop hitting each other with brooms?  Penetrating questions indeed...

Your avatar seems more likely to happen.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2014, 12:49:33 PM »
Lets refocus the question to: when OO and EO reunite and RC and Anglicans reunite, what will the respective Churches look like? Will the RC Church elect Her Most Holiness Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori as Pope and will she kiss as many babies as Pope Francis?  Will the monks at the Holy Sepulchre finally stop hitting each other with brooms?  Penetrating questions indeed...

My initial reaction to this was "Why would we switch to that question?" but then i thought "Oh IC, because it's a question whose answer we can all agree upon;to wit 'not going to happen, excepting if the Anglicans repent and turn back their clocks'."
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2014, 12:55:07 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?


1. I think the Coptic one should remain because the Coptic Church is the one native to that area.
2. I don't see a problem with one patriarch of all Africa, nor really for all the "West" for that matter.
3. No need except for Easter.
4. It would be expedient to change it because it does not affect doctrine and it has been a point of contention since (St.) Photius, but it should not be a condition of union.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2014, 02:14:13 PM »
It won't happen because it is intrisically impossible just as it is impossible for God to be a pantheon.

If the hierarchs of any two churches succumbed to hybris and proceeded to "union", they would just create a third new church. True followers of the previous churches would simply get together, reorganize and anathematize the new one. The new church might enjoy mundane legitimacy to marginalize the true followers for some time, but eventually (even if it took centuries as it took for Arianism) it would fade away and they would be seen for what they truly are: just one more division that added to the confusion instead of healing it.

There will be no healing before the Last Judgement:

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’
St. Matthew 13:24-30
http://books.google.cat/books?id=zz1MbStmeZkC&pg=PA21&dq=Wazo++Li%C3%A8ge&hl=ca&sa=X&ei=5WGsU4nKFcSQ7Ab_vYDYAw&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Wazo%20%20Li%C3%A8ge&f=false

Unionist ecumenists are just disobedient and tempting God.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 02:28:10 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2014, 02:42:40 PM »
It won't happen because it is intrisically impossible

So the Latin Church is incapable of returning to the truth (a kind of reverse infallibility)? Not that I think that's what you mean, but that's the meaning of your words if there isn't an implied qualifier.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2014, 03:27:36 PM »
It won't happen because it is intrisically impossible

So the Latin Church is incapable of returning to the truth (a kind of reverse infallibility)? Not that I think that's what you mean, but that's the meaning of your words if there isn't an implied qualifier.

It's not. The problem is that people treat churches as if they were individuals. If anything, only one of the churches could say that, but which is precisely the question from an ecumenist point of view.

All the others are groups. If you had 100 people in one group, 200 in another, half from each, including top hierarchs, united to form a third, you will still have group A with 50, group B with 100 and now group C with 150. Probably C will feel legitimated in persecuting the "schismatics" from A and B, and may even have the acceptance of the world in doing so. The truth, nevertheless, is that it's just a new division.

The more so talking about churches with hundreds of millions of adherents. No one can seriously speak of union if not having in mind the intention of actually marginalizing - if not waging outright persecution of - those that do not adhere.

It has nothing to do with who's right and who's wrong. It's just the structure of reality. Even if both groups were right, which is impossible, it would still be just one more division.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 03:41:47 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2014, 03:50:09 PM »
Unionist ecumenism is just a face of the revolutionary mentality in religion. People trying to "fix" the world, determining a "future state" that they consider unnegotiable, redefining morality and language about reality to justify that set future and throwing all who do not cooperate into the grinder. At the least bad, it's magical thinking, trying to wish away the divisions.

Jesus clearly explained that the state of having tares and wheat is unnescapable, that we are to wait until the Last Judgment and try to still love each other in the meantime. Now people have decided that if only they call both wheats and tares "plants", that all those specific words are just misunderstandings, that insisting on them is evil and unfraternal, if only we do that, then wheat and tare will cease being different. If they succeed they will just get a third mutant that's not wheat nor tare.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 03:51:19 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2014, 04:00:34 PM »
Behold,
Wheatare, the uniter of all schisms, arms spread open to receive all! :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 04:00:54 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2014, 04:09:04 PM »
This man knows how to make an argument.
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2014, 04:15:45 PM »
This man knows how to make an argument.

impressive... But its off topic  :-\

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2014, 04:23:14 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?


1. I think the Coptic one should remain because the Coptic Church is the one native to that area.
2. I don't see a problem with one patriarch of all Africa, nor really for all the "West" for that matter.
3. No need except for Easter.
4. It would be expedient to change it because it does not affect doctrine and it has been a point of contention since (St.) Photius, but it should not be a condition of union.

1. I agree with you on that one
2. The Latin church is no more just the west.  The idea of patriarch of the west is useless today. However for Africa , I still believe there should at least be two patriarchs in africa.
3. Good point.
4. Well Photius had no right to contend since it wasn't an issue pertaining to his church so that's not a bases for anything. At least we agree it should not be a condition of union :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 04:23:43 PM by Wandile »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2014, 05:12:16 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?


1. I think the Coptic one should remain because the Coptic Church is the one native to that area.
2. I don't see a problem with one patriarch of all Africa, nor really for all the "West" for that matter.
3. No need except for Easter.
4. It would be expedient to change it because it does not affect doctrine and it has been a point of contention since (St.) Photius, but it should not be a condition of union.

1. I agree with you on that one
2. The Latin church is no more just the west.  The idea of patriarch of the west is useless today. However for Africa , I still believe there should at least be two patriarchs in africa.
3. Good point.
4. Well Photius had no right to contend since it wasn't an issue pertaining to his church so that's not a bases for anything. At least we agree it should not be a condition of union :)

"At least we agree it should not be a condition of union"  And of course you are in the heir archial position to determine this?

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2014, 05:13:45 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?



1) There is only one Orthodox Pope of Alexandria. The converting community would acknowledge him. His nationality should not matter. The Church could, though, ordain and elavate one of the converts to the episcopacy and then to Patriarch to make the transition easier for the new community;

2) New subdivisions in Church jurisdictions are problematic. Any change would better be decided in a council;

3) The converting community would adopt the biblical canon and calendar of the Church;

4) Not necessary, but it would be good for the West in general. Ultimately, it's a decision for the bishops of the West.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 05:22:11 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2014, 05:50:08 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?



1) There is only one Orthodox Pope of Alexandria. The converting community would acknowledge him. His nationality should not matter. The Church could, though, ordain and elavate one of the converts to the episcopacy and then to Patriarch to make the transition easier for the new community;

2) New subdivisions in Church jurisdictions are problematic. Any change would better be decided in a council;

3) The converting community would adopt the biblical canon and calendar of the Church;

4) Not necessary, but it would be good for the West in general. Ultimately, it's a decision for the bishops of the West.

That's certainly not going to happen.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2014, 05:55:57 PM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?



1) There is only one Orthodox Pope of Alexandria. The converting community would acknowledge him. His nationality should not matter. The Church could, though, ordain and elavate one of the converts to the episcopacy and then to Patriarch to make the transition easier for the new community;

2) New subdivisions in Church jurisdictions are problematic. Any change would better be decided in a council;

3) The converting community would adopt the biblical canon and calendar of the Church;

4) Not necessary, but it would be good for the West in general. Ultimately, it's a decision for the bishops of the West.

That's certainly not going to happen.

Obviously. But people can make pretend by doing something else entirely and then calling it by the same name. People should read more Romeo and Juliet to know that you can convert, but not have a "united church".

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

A new division will be a new division, even if they call it a "healing".
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2014, 07:08:14 PM »
It won't happen because it is intrisically impossible

So the Latin Church is incapable of returning to the truth (a kind of reverse infallibility)? Not that I think that's what you mean, but that's the meaning of your words if there isn't an implied qualifier.

It's not. The problem is that people treat churches as if they were individuals. If anything, only one of the churches could say that, but which is precisely the question from an ecumenist point of view.

All the others are groups. If you had 100 people in one group, 200 in another, half from each, including top hierarchs, united to form a third, you will still have group A with 50, group B with 100 and now group C with 150. Probably C will feel legitimated in persecuting the "schismatics" from A and B, and may even have the acceptance of the world in doing so. The truth, nevertheless, is that it's just a new division.

The more so talking about churches with hundreds of millions of adherents. No one can seriously speak of union if not having in mind the intention of actually marginalizing - if not waging outright persecution of - those that do not adhere.

It has nothing to do with who's right and who's wrong. It's just the structure of reality. Even if both groups were right, which is impossible, it would still be just one more division.

Well, I'd say I've been opposed false ecumenism (or "unionist ecumenism") for a very long time -- regardless of whether it comes from Catholics, Anglicans, or Lutherans.

Oh, and I just remembered that it can come from Orthodox too!
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2014, 07:04:46 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

Secondly would the Pope of Alexandria still lay claim to being patriarch of all Africa? Considering how big Africa is and the fact that practically 95% of the faithful in the united church in Africa  would be Latin. I envision at least two patriarchs in Africa. One for north Africa and one for Sub-Saharan africa considering the size of the continent.

Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?


1. I think the Coptic one should remain because the Coptic Church is the one native to that area.
2. I don't see a problem with one patriarch of all Africa, nor really for all the "West" for that matter.
3. No need except for Easter.
4. It would be expedient to change it because it does not affect doctrine and it has been a point of contention since (St.) Photius, but it should not be a condition of union.

1. I agree with you on that one
2. The Latin church is no more just the west.  The idea of patriarch of the west is useless today. However for Africa , I still believe there should at least be two patriarchs in africa.
3. Good point.
4. Well Photius had no right to contend since it wasn't an issue pertaining to his church so that's not a bases for anything. At least we agree it should not be a condition of union :)

"At least we agree it should not be a condition of union"  And of course you are in the heir archial position to determine this?

I was speaking about my agreement with Justin...
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2014, 08:29:35 AM »
In the future when (God willing) reunion occurs between The CC, OO and EO what who would step down as the Patriarch of Alexandria? The Greek or Coptic Pope?  Btw the Coptic catholic patriarch certainly would step down.

I believe people on here have said in the past they (Greek and Coptic) would both reign until one died, and iirc the Coptic Pope ultimately takes the reigns so to speak.

Quote
Further would you like a unified biblical canon and singular calendar?

For the biblical canon, no. For the calendar, idk.

Quote
Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?

It would be nice, even if just to get polemical Latin apologetics to quit lashing out at the East in their defense against Protestants, but ultimately it's fine as a Latin-only custom.

If you'll pardon my curiosity, could you clarify: Does this include WRO?
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2014, 09:25:20 PM »
Quote
Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?
it was always a tradition (small t) so I couldn't care less if they kept it, but it seems your Pope is maybe wanting to change that.

Quote
If you'll pardon my curiosity, could you clarify: Does this include WRO?
The WRO have the same exact canon as all Orthodox (unlike the EC folks), so unless the entire Church instituted this, I wouldnt hold my breath.

Quote
1. I think the Coptic one should remain because the Coptic Church is the one native to that area
Sounds good.

Quote
2. I don't see a problem with one patriarch of all Africa, nor really for all the "West" for that matter
"The West" is kind of ambiguous, so some definition would be in order for that one to work.

Quote
3. No need except for Easter
Lol. Easier said then done apparently. As stupid as the argument is.....


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Offline Peter J

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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2014, 04:29:26 PM »
Quote
Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?
it was always a tradition (small t) so I couldn't care less if they kept it, but it seems your Pope is maybe wanting to change that.

Even in the west (West) it wasn't always mandatory, I don't think.
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2014, 06:43:29 PM »
Quote
Also, would you want the Latin church to change its discipline of mandatory priestly celibacy within the Latin church itself?
it was always a tradition (small t) so I couldn't care less if they kept it, but it seems your Pope is maybe wanting to change that.

Even in the west (West) it wasn't always mandatory, I don't think.

It was enforced surprisingly late, actually, and even afterward was enforced laxly in some areas and periods.
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Re: Upon reunion
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2014, 06:54:46 PM »
With all of the  post Vatican married clergy would be restored you would think
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 06:55:08 PM by username! »