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Author Topic: Where is the Love in Eastern Orthodoxy?  (Read 16478 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: April 27, 2005, 10:53:47 PM »



He was calling us to join non-Christians in common prayer. You agree with this? What deity can Orthodox Christians and Hindus and atheists pray to that they commonly believe in? Please answer this question. It might lead you to understand the problem people have with the arguments you're making.



But not all that humans call "love" is God.


On 911, everyone prayed together- all faiths, nationalities were praying at the same time. This is an example of how I would interpret the 'common prayer'...

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« Reply #136 on: April 27, 2005, 11:24:22 PM »

On 911, everyone prayed together- all faiths, nationalities were praying at the same time.  This is an example of how I would interpret the 'common prayer'...
So this takes place every Sunday morning then when Orthodox Christians pray "at the same time" as other Christians.
'Nice touch' using the 9/11 example. When reason fails, turning to emotionalism and sentimentalism is not the answer.
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« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2005, 12:12:04 AM »


So this takes place every Sunday morning then when Orthodox Christians pray "at the same time" as other Christians.
'Nice touch' using the 9/11 example. When reason fails, turning to emotionalism and sentimentalism is not the answer.

People prayed together on 911- in the street.... the speech by Paulos spoke of prayer in the secular world as distinct from prayer in the church... and that is what happened on 911- also during Tsunami...   There are times when people do pray together...usually in times of great distress when all are compelled to recognize the Almighty.. 
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« Reply #138 on: April 28, 2005, 12:36:40 AM »

For the record, the question was dodged. I asked, "Prayer to what deity?" I didn't ask with whom Jesus dined. I ate lunch with Hindus some days ago, but that's hardly praying with them. Let's be clear about distinctions. God is not Shiva. Hindus don't pray to God, nor do atheists, both of whom Bp. Paulos called for us to pray with in a common prayer.

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the speech by Paulos spoke of prayer in the secular world as distinct from prayer in the church

Secular prayer? That's a contradiction in terms. Maybe you can answer, "Prayer to what?" Where does Scripture mention a secular public prayer?

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usually in times of great distress when all are compelled to recognize the Almighty

Which Hindu/Druid/Buddhist/atheist did you hear from the scandalous 9/11 fest who proclaimed recognition of the Almighty of Christianity? If you can't name one, then why do you presume? Why should they not presume that the Orthodox Christian praying with them isn't recognizing Shiva? In fact, it's reasonable to believe that's what they are thinking. And if you don't take your Orthodox faith seriously, why would they?
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« Reply #139 on: April 28, 2005, 12:40:34 AM »

I'd like to add to the fire by saying that we can't even assume that other monotheistic religions believe in the same God as we do... My Metropolitan was telling me over the weekend of April 8th - 10th that if anyone says we pray to the same god as the moslems then they commit blasphemy; for their god has no love (as evidenced by their scripture).  They take a shadow of our belief and pervert it.

So "common prayer" has to be extremely well-defined, and we can't just be restricting our restrictions to the polytheists and others...
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« Reply #140 on: April 28, 2005, 02:04:11 AM »

ahh, I can feel the love.  It feels like...burning.
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« Reply #141 on: April 28, 2005, 02:38:36 AM »

I wonder what it is in the heterodox mentality which equates Orthodoxy with lovelessness, and a “warm-fuzzy-feeling-with-bright-rainbows-and-gliding-doves” with Christian Love?
I don’t think Our Lord had “warm-fuzzy-feeling-with-bright-rainbows-and-gliding-doves” on the Cross, yet there has never been a greater example of Love in human history than Christ Crucified.
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« Reply #142 on: April 28, 2005, 02:49:15 AM »

I wonder what it is in the heterodox mentality which equates Orthodoxy with lovelessness, and a “warm-fuzzy-feeling-with-bright-rainbows-and-gliding-doves” with Christian Love?
I don’t think Our Lord had “warm-fuzzy-feeling-with-bright-rainbows-and-gliding-doves” on the Cross, yet there has never been a greater example of Love in human history than Christ Crucified.


God bless and have a joyous Holy Week and Pascha!
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« Reply #143 on: April 28, 2005, 07:08:03 AM »

I hate to be the politically correct one in the bunch......but I do think that if someone is praying to "God" (as long as the person praying believes what or whom he/she is praying to is the "highest diety"......for example, a Hindu praying to Atman, rather than Shiva), that that person is indeed praying to YHWH.

Consider Abraham, for example.  His parents were, in all probability, polytheistic pagans.  And Abraham certainly had no systematic knowledge of YHWH as the Jews would 1000 years later.  He simply prayed to what he knew to be vaguely "the one God".  And God answered him.

And what about Job?  He had no historical connection with the God as revealed to the Jews.....he lived in the "East".....and yet God accepted his worship as an acceptable sacrifice.

There are also many stories of modern-day Muslims (in Iraq, for example), who asked "Allah to reveal Himself"......then the Lord Jesus would appear to them.

This is not to say that I believe there can be salvation outside of Christ and His Church.....I certainly do not believe that.  I'm just saying that if someone offers prayer to "the Highest Being", then they are in fact praying to YHWH.

As to the question "Where is the love in Eastern Orthodoxy?".....I'd like to remind everybody of the squibbles, fighting, and arrogance that I've seen in Pentecostal Churches.  This is a human thing.  It will be present in every church....whether in the true, One, Apostolic Church, or otherwise.

If you want to dichotomize the situation, we can say the Church is the guardian of two things: Truth and Love.  Sometimes the Church can focus so much on the Truth part, that they forget about the Love part.....hence what you see going on in the Christological squibbles between OO and EO.  Other times, a Church can focus too much on the Love part and forget about the Truth part....like what you see going on in ultra-ecumenical and inter-faith circles.
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« Reply #144 on: April 28, 2005, 10:53:00 AM »

I hate to be the politically correct one in the bunch......but I do think that if someone is praying to "God" (as long as the person praying believes what or whom he/she is praying to is the "highest diety"......for example, a Hindu praying to Atman, rather than Shiva), that that person is indeed praying to YHWH.

Consider Abraham, for example. His parents were, in all probability, polytheistic pagans. And Abraham certainly had no systematic knowledge of YHWH as the Jews would 1000 years later. He simply prayed to what he knew to be vaguely "the one God". And God answered him.

And what about Job? He had no historical connection with the God as revealed to the Jews.....he lived in the "East".....and yet God accepted his worship as an acceptable sacrifice.

There are also many stories of modern-day Muslims (in Iraq, for example), who asked "Allah to reveal Himself"......then the Lord Jesus would appear to them.

This is not to say that I believe there can be salvation outside of Christ and His Church.....I certainly do not believe that. I'm just saying that if someone offers prayer to "the Highest Being", then they are in fact praying to YHWH.

As to the question "Where is the love in Eastern Orthodoxy?".....I'd like to remind everybody of the squibbles, fighting, and arrogance that I've seen in Pentecostal Churches. This is a human thing. It will be present in every church....whether in the true, One, Apostolic Church, or otherwise.

If you want to dichotomize the situation, we can say the Church is the guardian of two things: Truth and Love. Sometimes the Church can focus so much on the Truth part, that they forget about the Love part.....hence what you see going on in the Christological squibbles between OO and EO. Other times, a Church can focus too much on the Love part and forget about the Truth part....like what you see going on in ultra-ecumenical and inter-faith circles.

You said it very well... there is only one God, one Creator - that is our belief and Truth...  regardless of the name given by others ... there are no other Gods, just other names and interpretations as a result of human frailty and imperfection.....

As to your last point, again you said it well.  Christological squibbles do not necessarily make one more "orthodox', just more squibbly...that is, the disaccord becomes focus and the overall message gets lost....As it turns out that was the section I was asked to read last night during nymphios...the 3rd Epistle Reading from St. Paul, from which I quote only one sentence for brevity : "Though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing..."
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« Reply #145 on: April 28, 2005, 11:22:06 AM »

I wonder what it is in the heterodox mentality which equates Orthodoxy with lovelessness, and a “warm-fuzzy-feeling-with-bright-rainbows-and-gliding-doves” with Christian Love?



Truth without love is dead. Tradition without compassion is hypocritical. Orthodoxy itself is not lovelessness but some become so narrowminded in their Orthodoxy that they are unable to have love and compassion for anyone outside of Orthodoxy. What good is that?  Even the pagans love their neighbor!
And I am not saying that this represents a majority of Orthodox Christians but it is a substantial minority that paints an unfavorable picture of us to the rest of the world.

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« Reply #146 on: April 28, 2005, 01:52:06 PM »

You have a convoluted idea of what loving your neighbor is. Loving everyone the way we should doesn't meam we pray with them. It means we pray for them. Loving everyone doesn't mean we blend away the fact that the gods they worship are NOT the Christian God; it means we behave like the Christian God in the hopes that they will come to understand Him better.  Stating the differences between us is not hate. You must figure out a better definition of loving your neighbor than what you have been offering, because it has been poor.
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« Reply #147 on: April 28, 2005, 02:21:44 PM »

Quote
I hate to be the politically correct one in the bunch......but I do think that if someone is praying to "God" (as long as the person praying believes what or whom he/she is praying to is the "highest diety"......for example, a Hindu praying to Atman, rather than Shiva), that that person is indeed praying to YHWH.

Quote
You said it very well... there is only one God, one Creator - that is our belief and Truth...  regardless of the name given by others ... there are no other Gods, just other names and interpretations as a result of human frailty and imperfection.....

Well, let's put these contentions to the test, based just on my memory....

In the Old Testament, when the Canaanites prayed to their highest deity Baal, then this was OK with YHWH. No, wait, actually that was really bad, and in fact when Ahab fell in with Jezebel to worship Baal, he was considered the most wicked of Kings.

Well, maybe that was just the politically incorrect Old Testament. After all, somebody named Marcion did write that the Deity in the Old Testament was not the same Deity as in the New Testament. When St. Paul came to Athens and saw that there was a Temple To The Unknown God, then he left the city and stopped preaching in Greece since he did not see that there was any reason to continue preaching because all the Deities are the same, right? Oh, I guess not, as we have records of his missionary activity.

Hmm, well maybe in the post Apostolic era we can see God agreeing with the theory that all of the High Pagan Deities are in fact Him. Several saints were brought to pagan temples, and if the theory is correct, then the statues of the pagan deities praised the saints. Actually, no, I guess not; several temples and/or statues were destroyed by God's presence made manifest in that saint when brought into the lair of these false gods...

Quote
Truth without love is dead. Tradition without compassion is hypocritical. Orthodoxy itself is not lovelessness but some become so narrowminded in their Orthodoxy that they are unable to have love and compassion for anyone outside of Orthodoxy. What good is that?  Even the pagans love their neighbor!

Death is knowing truth but hiding it. Hypocrisy is knowing tradtion but not helping others to know it. Our love and compassion for those outside of Orthodoxy means we must let others know of Orthodoxy. This is how we show love for our pagan neighbor!

Admittedly some members are too confrontational. However, a Christian life is inherently painful, as it is the most difficult thing in the world to do. Sometimes pain is needed for us to give a matter its proper attention.
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« Reply #148 on: April 28, 2005, 02:26:40 PM »

[oldwomanwaggingfinger]We've argued about this before, and to no end. 

Stop it and go to church!  We have the twelve Gospel readings tonight.  We'll have all the time in the world to discuss this later.

In fact, think about it, but not in a way that makes you formulate your arguments.  LISTEN to the Gospels and to the prayers.  Think about what they mean in terms of love AND in terms of speaking the truth and about Truth.  Think about what this prayer in our church means and what it means elsewhere.  Most of all LISTEN! 

But stop it and go to church.[/oldwomanwaggingfinger]
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« Reply #149 on: April 28, 2005, 02:59:26 PM »

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

If the attributes of God are clearly seen in the Creation, then the members of non-Christian religions will have at least some sense of God. In this enough to pray with them in the public square? Why not?
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« Reply #150 on: April 28, 2005, 03:01:41 PM »

[oldwomanwaggingfinger]We've argued about this before, and to no end.

Stop it and go to church! We have the twelve Gospel readings tonight. We'll have all the time in the world to discuss this later.

In fact, think about it, but not in a way that makes you formulate your arguments. LISTEN to the Gospels and to the prayers. Think about what they mean in terms of love AND in terms of speaking the truth and about Truth. Think about what this prayer in our church means and what it means elsewhere. Most of all LISTEN!

But stop it and go to church.[/oldwomanwaggingfinger]

I'm excited about the intensity of the services starting today! Yes, I admit it is a little bit emotionalism taking over (which is bad), but the theology/message/etc. is mindblowingly intense and important!
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« Reply #151 on: April 28, 2005, 03:02:43 PM »

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

If the attributes of God are clearly seen in the Creation, then the members of non-Christian religions will have at least some sense of God. In this enough to pray with them in the public square? Why not?

Why don't you take a break from thinking this for at least a few days and follow cizinec's posting?  It will do you a lot good.
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« Reply #152 on: April 28, 2005, 08:00:58 PM »

Though I thought cizinec's post was good advice, I will break that advice for a few minutes and allow myself to answer chris' post....

I think the case with Baal and the like is different for the reason that the worshippers in question were raising their worship to a man-made idol.  Notwithstanding their belief that Baal was the highest deity, they nevertheless countered this by supposing that the highest deity could be contained within a piece of wood.  This is different from Hinduism in so far as you'll never find a statue or painting of Atman, being an ultra-transcendant (albeit somewhat impersonal) figure.

I myself would be very uncomfortable praying with people from other religions, however.  To me this would be like saying, "No, that's cool bro....you don't have to have the love of Christ to be made whole......you don't have to join the Church or be baptized.....just continue in your incomplete knowledge of God....it's all good."
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« Reply #153 on: April 28, 2005, 08:19:41 PM »

Perhaps by praying with them, they will become interested in Christ.
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« Reply #154 on: April 28, 2005, 08:26:16 PM »

Notwithstanding their belief that Baal was the highest deity, they nevertheless countered this by supposing that the highest deity could be contained within a piece of wood. This is different from Hinduism in so far as you'll never find a statue or painting of Atman, being an ultra-transcendant (albeit somewhat impersonal) figure.
I don't think this is the point of idolatory.
Whenever we worship our own concepts, we are being idolatrous- we set up as God something that is not God. God is the Living God Who has revealed Himself. If we choose to worship an impersonal "highest power", we are not worshipping the God Who has revealed Himself.
As we say at the beginning of our Prayer Services: "God is the Lord, and has revealed Himself to us!"
If we choose to worship a god who is simply the projection of our own concepts, or the "revelation" of demons, then the accusation of the philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach against us is true when he says:
“It is not as in the Bible, that God created man in his own image. But, on the contrary, man created God in his own image.”
This is idolatory.

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« Reply #155 on: April 28, 2005, 08:32:01 PM »

I believe that the righteous members of non-Christian religions are "anonymous Christians" who have at least some sense of the nature of God as revealed in nature. 
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« Reply #156 on: April 29, 2005, 06:41:43 AM »

ozgeorge.....But don't you think it's possible that Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc. were originally revelations from God which simply became corrupted over time? (much like Islam's view of Christianity?)

.....or the view which I like better: all religions (with the possible exceptions of Islam and Mormonism) are the "fleshing out" of Jungian archetypes planted in the mind by God.  Though, we with our frail minds, cannot flesh them out properly without aid from God....which is where the Burning Bush and the Gospel come in.
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« Reply #157 on: April 29, 2005, 11:26:35 AM »

Reasonable concern is making me cautious of responding. Perhaps I'm in the early stages of becoming a grumpy old man, but aren't you the "Orthodox" Christian who doubts the existence of souls (as though this is 'optional')? What does "Orthodox" mean? Do you belong to the Orthodox Church like my boys belong to their soccer club? What is Antioch teaching you people? Smiley You and I have completely different "phronema". I'm not sure that dialogue is possible between us. But in answer to your questions:

But don't you think it's possible that Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc. were originally revelations from God which simply became corrupted over time?
Not at all. They are a mockery of God concocted by the father of lies. Some see in the "trinitarian view" of the deities of some religions (for example, the Hindu trinity of Brahma, Visnu and Shiva) a reflection of the Holy Trinity and say that this is evidence of divine revelation. On the contrary, this is evidence of demonic revelation- the demons also know that God is a Trinity.

.....or the view which I like better: all religions (with the possible exceptions of Islam and Mormonism) are the "fleshing out" of Jungian archetypes planted in the mind by God. Though, we with our frail minds, cannot flesh them out properly without aid from God....which is where the Burning Bush and the Gospel come in.
Firstly, why do you exclude Islam and Mormonism, and yet include Orthodox Christianity in your "Jungian" view of "all religions"?
Secondly, as I have stated before, God is Absolute Truth, and since Absolute Truth is not relative truth, the only way we can know anything about Him is if He reveals Himself to us. If God revealed Himself by "implanting Jungian Archtypes in our minds" then He would be only a relative truth, not an Absolute Truth. This is the very reason God forbad idolatry in the Second Commandment of the decalogue. Rather than me rehashing this point, check it out in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php/topic,4459.msg75926.html#msg75926

When I studied genetics at university, I thought that genetics had all the answers, when I studied psychology, I thought that psychology had all the answers, when I studied sociology, I thought that sociology had all the answers.....do you see where I'm going with this? Wink Put down "Synchronicity" and "Undiscovered Self with Symbols and The Interpretation of Dreams", stop making an idol of the "Self", light the vigil lamp in front of your Icons, pick up "The Orthodox Study Bible" and read.



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« Reply #158 on: April 29, 2005, 11:30:32 AM »

Though I started this thread with good intentions, perhaps it has gone on for too long. There is love in Eastern Orthodoxy but there are some "bad apples" who seem to spoil the whole bunch, at least in the eyes of the world. This is not to say that they are bad people, but they may be so fixated on the letter of tradition that they neglect its spirit and the need to love one another. I have been guilty of this from time to time and many converts will go through the same period of zealotry in some point in their life. We're only human.
Please, let's try to abstain from this thread during the Pascha weekend.
May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
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« Reply #159 on: May 03, 2005, 12:05:20 AM »

Though I started this thread with good intentions, perhaps it has gone on for too long. There is love in Eastern Orthodoxy but there are some "bad apples" who seem to spoil the whole bunch, at least in the eyes of the world. This is not to say that they are bad people, but they may be so fixated on the letter of tradition that they neglect its spirit and the need to love one another. I have been guilty of this from time to time and many converts will go through the same period of zealotry in some point in their life. We're only human.
Please, let's try to abstain from this thread during the Pascha weekend.
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Matthew, just when I thought I had closed this issue in my mind, an awful thing happened to me at my parish on Pasha eve that I wanted to tell about... I will preface the story with 'there's good and bad people and behaviors  in all faiths' , so what i am about to say is not a general comment on all Orthodox.  However it is I think perhap an example of the kinds of things that when they are experienced in an Orthodox church, one stands back and says...'so these people are no more Christian in the end than others...'   The story is: I am involved in the choir at my parish. I assist the choir director and when he is out I sub for him.  My 9 year old daughter, who is  a 'singer',  has been invited to join with two other older little girls in our parish and has hesitated but sits with me on Sundays in the choir and sings sometimes.  For Pascha we were given a pile of old donated choir robes from a parish that bought new ones.  So everyone went through the pile and picked out what might fit and took them home for repairs and ironing, including the two other girls. This was on Holy Wednesday after services.  Everyone was told to put their names in the robes that fit.  On Saturday I went in the afternoon for choir practice and, at the repeated invitation of the director ( to help fill the choir with voices)  my daughter decided to sing on Pascha.  So I went to the closet and picked one of the 4 remaining shorter robes- no name in it.  I took it home, hemmed it a good 6 inches, and removed the wrinkles for my daughter.    We showed up at church at 10 pm for rehearsal, as scheduled, and were deep in to rehearsal at 10:30 when the other girls arrived.  All of a sudden one of the girls started complaining that my daughter 'took' her gown. She said she could tell by a small tear on it her mom had fixed... The two mothers of the two choir girls - both on the PC- started to yell at me in the Narthex.. 'that was her gown, it was in the closet, so what if it didn't have her name, etc. etc.".. I explained that the gown was unmarked , that as far as I knew everyone had taken theirs, labelled them according to instructions, etc, and that this was a leftover, which I had now altered for my daugher- and also it should not be an issue  since there were several others the same size still left and I would get one for the girl-  Now that I had shortened this for my child, who was the smallest of the group- nothing else  would fit her...whereas there were several that would fit the other girl.   I went to the closet and got one of the other gowns, which was ankle length.  The mother insisted that her child would trip on it... but it was the same size as the original one- though this was not apparent now that I had shortened it.  She ended up stapling the hem and it was fine... Mind you the only reason the girl felt there was no gown for her was because she was looking for the one with the tear, but did not check to see if anything else fit...In any case, rather than the mothers see what could work, they went for the jugular. I told the mother " i'm truly sorry but I had no way of knowing the gown was 'taken' and there were several the same size..."
 
I can't tell you how awful it was to be 'butchered' in the narthex by two officers of the PC on Pascha eve while in the middle of rehearsing Soma Christou.   These were people first up for communion.  All that fasting the did for lent out the window in my opinion- better to not be so 'perfect' in fasting and more perfect in kindness toward others.  All that PC fussing on the flowers for the epitaphion,the flowers for the Mirofiores, the altar, the choir robes, etc... for what? To put on an orthodox  'show' while stabbing people in the back?  How awful.. esp for anyone walking in at 10:45 to hear what was going on right there at the pangari...It must have sounded like the devil's den...  I had to hold myself back from walking out on the choir altogether- but I thought of the terrible example it would set for my daugher who was so excited about singing for Pascha - and I thought that 'why should I not go to church for Pascha?' But I lost my voice for awhile and could hardly sing or concentrate on the music...


In any case, hopefully I have not bored the readers with this event. It's just another 'true story' of what goes on in church with people who 'run the daily things'.  Yet, the 'love' must start with the clergy and the PC... and if it's not there, the tendency is for all actiivties  to take on the 'culture' of the PC, rather than the spririt of the church as Christ intended.  I pray  no one ever experiences anything like this...  ever!

In XC,
Kizzy




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« Reply #160 on: May 03, 2005, 12:18:12 AM »

I've got no idea what this topic is really about as I haven't gone to the first page to read - I just read the last story Kizzy posted and thought to myself sadly, "Looks like those women forgot what they were at church for!"

Sad, but true ... people get so involved in the tiny insignificant things that they forget the true meaning, and what we're there to celebrate in the first place.

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« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2005, 12:28:43 AM »

Sin begins in the choir. 

I'm in the choir at my church, too--I am the tenor section, actually Wink--so I know that it can get catty, 'specially when the pressure's on during Holy Week, everyone's irritable because of the demands so many services are making on your voice/body, fasting's increased, so we're all gripey and hungry, we want Pascha to sound great (while it shouldn't be about "showtime," we of course want it to sound the most glorious we can make it sound)...yet in all that, in our knowledge of our role (which is an honor or should be) as prayer-leader, we can get too big for our britches and make it more about the appearance than the substance.

Sorry you had to go through that, Kizzy.  Been there with offenses like that in the choir, some of which have caused folks to leave.  Sad
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« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2005, 12:43:33 AM »

Sin begins in the choir.

I'm in the choir at my church, too--I am the tenor section, actually Wink--so I know that it can get catty, 'specially when the pressure's on during Holy Week, everyone's irritable because of the demands so many services are making on your voice/body, fasting's increased, so we're all gripey and hungry, we want Pascha to sound great (while it shouldn't be about "showtime," we of course want it to sound the most glorious we can make it sound)...yet in all that, in our knowledge of our role (which is an honor or should be) as prayer-leader, we can get too big for our britches and make it more about the appearance than the substance.

Sorry you had to go through that, Kizzy. Been there with offenses like that in the choir, some of which have caused folks to leave. Sad

Thanks Pedro... actually I thought it began in the Parish council  and was mirrored in the choir! no matter, I see I am not alone!.
In XC , kizzy
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« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2005, 12:41:41 AM »

All that fasting the did for lent out the window in my opinion- better to not be so 'perfect' in fasting and more perfect in kindness toward others.

This reminds me of when Jesus said that it is not what goes into the mouth which defiles the man but which comes out of it. Thank you for sharing. One of the things I love about my church is that we usually do not have problems like that. There isn't the gossip and intolerance that there is in some other churches. I am not saying that to "brag" at all. But it is just hard to accept that some would consider my church "heretical" considering that if there is love in Orthodoxy, it is definitely at my church. Know what I mean?

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« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2005, 08:40:39 AM »

Oh just get over it already. There are plenty of EO and OO who get along just dandy; stop bringing it up like everyone here hates you and your church or something. We disagree. We're not in communion. God willing, we will be someday. Leave it at that.
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« Reply #165 on: May 04, 2005, 02:49:54 PM »

There are plenty of EO and OO who get along just dandy; stop bringing it up like everyone here hates you and your church or something. We disagree.

I was bringing up something which makes our Church unique. In the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, there isn't the gossip, politics, and intolerance that there is in certain Orthodox jurisdictions. Given that India is such a religiously diverse country, the Church learned to be open-minded while still holding fast to Orthodox tradition. 
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« Reply #166 on: May 04, 2005, 03:23:17 PM »

Now you're judging whole groups of people (and worse, along jurisdictional lines) as gossipers, politicizers, and intolerant. I think you've got a strange and special pair of rosy non-reality lenses on.
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« Reply #167 on: May 04, 2005, 03:25:52 PM »

Now you're judging whole groups of people (and worse, along jurisdictional lines) as gossipers, politicizers, and intolerant. I think you've got a strange and special pair of rosy non-reality lenses on.

This is not to judge a whole group of people, there are just certain elements within groups. Every church has its foibles and likewise, every church has its strengths. I can almost guarantee that anyone who comes to our church can feel welcome.
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« Reply #168 on: May 04, 2005, 04:13:30 PM »

Hey Matthew, which part of "just get over it already" did you find incomprehensible? Shocked
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« Reply #169 on: May 04, 2005, 04:27:19 PM »

This is not to judge a whole group of people, there are just certain elements within groups. Every church has its foibles and likewise, every church has its strengths. I can almost guarantee that anyone who comes to our church can feel welcome.

If there are certain elements within groups, as you say, you would do well to admit that those certain elements exist within your own church.  Your individual parish might be welcoming, but look long enough and you'll find at least one parish in every parish in every jurisdiction, be it EO or OO, that is not welcoming.

And just for future reference, hasty generalizations are a logical fallacy.  Wink
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« Reply #170 on: May 04, 2005, 04:45:44 PM »

And just for future reference, hasty generalizations are a logical fallacy. Wink

Which is why I do not engage in debates but in "dialogs". Afro
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« Reply #171 on: May 04, 2005, 04:52:16 PM »

You mean "monologues," of course.
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« Reply #172 on: May 04, 2005, 04:54:36 PM »

ha ha
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« Reply #173 on: May 04, 2005, 05:23:25 PM »

"This is not to judge a whole group of people, there are just certain elements within groups. Every church has its foibles and likewise, every church has its strengths. I can almost guarantee that anyone who comes to our church can feel welcome."

Tricky, tricky, lowercasing the C's like that....What you really meant to type is
This is not to judge a whole group of people, there are just certain elements within groups. Every Church has its foibles and likewise, every Church has its strengths. I can almost guarantee that anyone who comes to our Church can feel welcome.

If you are saying that your individual parish is welcoming, fabu for you. But nobody really cares unless they're looking for a church in your area to attend. But since the subtext is that your jurisdiction is welcoming and other jurisdictions are not, get over it. I dont care what your Christology is, but no singlular jurisdiction has the monopoly on being the best one.
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« Reply #174 on: May 04, 2005, 05:40:58 PM »

This is not to judge a whole group of people, there are just certain elements within groups. Every church has its foibles and likewise, every church has its strengths. I can almost guarantee that anyone who comes to our church can feel welcome.
Your point is? Everyone who goes to St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopalian Church in San Francisco also is made to feel welcome- especially if they're unrepentant active homosexuals. Everyone who goes to the Hare Krishna Temple here in Sydney is made to feel welcome and can share in the Sunday Feast.
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« Reply #175 on: May 04, 2005, 06:29:49 PM »

But since the subtext is that your jurisdiction is welcoming and other jurisdictions are not, get over it.

From what I have heard from clergy members and those who have come into contact with other Malankara commumities, this is a jurisdiction without much politics, intolerance and gossip.
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« Reply #176 on: May 04, 2005, 06:35:02 PM »

I need to find out where you get glasses with lenses that shade of rose. 
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« Reply #177 on: May 04, 2005, 07:12:19 PM »

Quote
but no singlular jurisdiction has the monopoly on being the best one.

You obviously aren't a Serb.   Grin
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« Reply #178 on: May 04, 2005, 07:56:46 PM »


Your point is? Everyone who goes to St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopalian Church in San Francisco also is made to feel welcome- especially if they're unrepentant active homosexuals.

...been there for a concert.  All I will say about it is that the place is...interesting.
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« Reply #179 on: May 04, 2005, 08:46:38 PM »


Your point is? Everyone who goes to St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopalian Church in San Francisco also is made to feel welcome- especially if they're unrepentant active homosexuals. Everyone who goes to the Hare Krishna Temple here in Sydney is made to feel welcome and can share in the Sunday Feast.

There is no basis nor reason to compare the Malankara Church to an ultra-liberal protestant denomination and a new age cult.
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