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Author Topic: Where is the Love in Eastern Orthodoxy?  (Read 19003 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2005, 03:28:33 PM »

Think of how many people he has actually preached to. Though he is a Protestant, I'd bet that at least 90% of what he teaches concerning the Gospel is correct. It is great that we have someone as influential and charismatic to spread the Gospel as Billy Graham.

I agree.... To me the strength of Billy Graham is his ability/ goal to speak to multitudes on scripture... too bad he isn't EO or too bad the EO leadership don't  follow at least some of his approach of charisma  to reach people...  if the EO hierarchs took this on as an effort, then the scripture would be consistent with the church... but our hierarchs tend not to 'teach' the multitudes looking for faith, only those already in the church....and on this they struggle to find the right words.. some priests are great in the homily, others awful... so we have left alot of room for evangelists like BG to work...and then people  criticize him for it...Better him than Sun myong moon(sp) or Osama bin laden..

in XC, Kizzy

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« Reply #46 on: April 23, 2005, 06:39:51 PM »

As Jesus said, whoever isn't against us is with us.
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« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2005, 11:47:13 PM »

Quote
Though he is a Protestant, I'd bet that at least 90% of what he teaches concerning the Gospel is correct.

I'll admit I like Billy Graham as a person. I've enjoyed some of his sermons. Perhaps he's a good man. Perhaps he's a sincere man who believes in Christ as best as he knows and was raised. But let's see...

- He denies the authority of the Church.
- He denies Christ's presence in the wine and bread.
- He doesn't accept most of the Orthodox sacraments.
- He believes in instant sinner's prayer salvation.
- He doesn't accept the Apostolic succession.
- He's most likely an iconoclast (but I can't be certain -- I'm only going on his Presbyterian and Baptist background).
- Many of his interpretations of Scripture are contrary to the Orthodox Church and the Fathers.

Saying he taught with a 90% accuracy rate about authentic and full Gospel Christianity isn't something an Orthodox Christian could say. We could probably say he's a pious Christian, but not that he's close to the true Apostolic faith.

In no way do I consider Billy Graham a bad man. I'm saying he's taught a lot of wrong things about Christ.

Quote
Better him than Sun myong moon(sp) or Osama bin laden

Agreed. But those guys aren't Christian so we can write them off for starters Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2005, 11:49:14 PM »

When it comes to spreading the essentials of salvation, Graham is spot on.
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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2005, 11:56:47 PM »

When it comes to spreading the essentials of salvation, Graham is spot on.
You're right....During the TV coverage of the funeral of Pope JPII, BG's son was interviewed and he stated very simply " we( he and the Pope/RC)  had our different views on some things, but on these essential things we were the same: there is one God, the holy trinity, and no one gets to heaven except through Christ...the only way is through Him..."  He said it plainly and clearly and on TV...like I said before,the charisma &  communication skills in this instance really helped deliver the  message.... I can see why some people are so drawn to his preaching...

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« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2005, 06:55:36 AM »

Better him than Sun myong moon(sp) or Osama bin laden..

Sister, Kizzy

What is a "better" lie is irrelevant comparing to Truth.

If I was to choose to eat between -½thick air-+ and -½thin air-+ my stomach would still be empty. So how can I sustain life while being starved to death?

The question is not about how things are being told, but about Whom you are talking about.

Matthew 21:28-32

The Parable of the Two Sons
 28“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
 29“ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
 30“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
 31“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
 “The first,” they answered.
 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.


I think that today also "tax collectors" and "prostitutes" believe in the clumsy homily of non-charismatic persons that they fail to talk adequately about Him but nevertheless they are talking about a living reality of the Life of Church that they participate themselves.

Others choose to be attracted to charismatic persons that they do talk about Him, but not about the live reality of the experience of His Body.

They both get what they are looking for.
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« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2005, 09:04:58 PM »

I believe this is the message of Christ of how we should understand men like Billy Graham:

Mark 9
38“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
   39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Billy Graham may not be Orthodox but he performs the miracle of evangelization in the name of Jesus. Given that he is not against us, he is for us. Unlike other Protestant evangelicals, Graham is open about Orthodoxy and encourages Orthodox Christians to be loyal to their churches.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
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« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2005, 09:38:58 PM »

On the other hand, one of the Evil One's nastiest deceptions may very well be to lead people into heterodox confessions while letting them think they've found the true Faith.  Granted, God will save whomsoever He chooses, but salvation for those outside the Church is not guaranteed.  The work of high-profile evangelicals makes our task of proclaiming Orthodoxy to the world more difficult, rather than aiding it.  In that sense, he really is working against us.
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« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2005, 10:06:42 PM »

On the other hand, one of the Evil One's nastiest deceptions may very well be to lead people into heterodox confessions while letting them think they've found the true Faith. Granted, God will save whomsoever He chooses, but salvation for those outside the Church is not guaranteed. The work of high-profile evangelicals makes our task of proclaiming Orthodoxy to the world more difficult, rather than aiding it. In that sense, he really is working against us.

or, quite possibly, the Deceiver's tactic is to allow us to become so prideful and full of pomp that we lose sight of Christ and we forget about LOVE!

What are the fruits of our Church in recent years? Laughable, that's what they are.

The Church became so accustomed to using the state as a crutch that when the state fell, our Church fell too. But we were leaning heavily on that crutch, really. Is this the vision of the Kingdom?

Look at Greece! While the faith is alive in many, there are also many who lack faith. If all of Greece had anything close to a True Christian faith, then the world around them would be changed. But it's not.

And Russia. The Church became so ill and lost it's vision. It's no surprise that the Communists found plenty of supporters. The Church in Russia had lost it's moral authority. Why? We can't blame this on others, as no excuse is great enough. In the Early Church, a nascent organization of people (with little funding an no government support) showed great fruit...charity, love, and peace.

Look at the Ecumenical Patriarch! Once the capital of the empire, all of the earthly glory is gone yet for some reason this Earthly kingdom must be preserved. Oh yeah, and Greek culture. Because that's obviously so important. Same thing in Jerusalem, too.

No, our Church has been winding down, not due to heterodox, but due to ourselves! We think that some parts of the Gospel, such as Christ's condemnations to the Pharisees, were just for that time period. But they are meant for us, too.

And so as our Church was winding down, and as love was waning, as unity was breaking, and as people dying, we clutched to our little bit-o-truth and whispered to ourselves "we have the truth!"

clutching it close to our chest so that no one could see it, we forget about the parable of the talents. That was about money, right? Not about our Christian faith.

This is our fruit. While we are at all times to lead the world in generousity and love, we spend more time on festival preparations than on charity. I've been to several different Orthodox Churches, each for a few years. Not once was there a clear message or general impetus put on me by my fellow brothers and sisters, or by the clergy, to really do something for other people. It was always "attend more services" since that will make me holy. Somehow.

Yet something did happen...Christ, always being with us as he promised, helped to pique the interest of the heterodox. People who themselves had not split from our church, but who descended from those who had (many generations ago). And so with their zeal and love for Christ, their zeal began to wake up "cradles" too.

Mission. They helped us with mission. And do you know how many of those heterodox gained their zeal? By preachers like Billy Graham. In fact, my dad (now Orthodox) had his Christian faith awakened by Billy Graham. It was this zeal for Christ that led my dad to the Church, which in turned help me.

So while I don't think that an Orthodox Christian should necessarily listen to a preacher like Billy Graham for lessons on theology, I do think people (and there are many of these in our Church) who's faith is waning or out of focus should be jolted awake by him or another Christian with his same Charisma.


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« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2005, 10:20:35 PM »

Granted, God will save whomsoever He chooses, but salvation for those outside the Church is not guaranteed.

Do we believe in Christianity or Churchianity? The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Whoever confesses their sins to Christ and accepts Him as savior and God and lives out His commandments will be saved.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
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« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2005, 11:04:27 PM »

Do we believe in Christianity or Churchianity?

The fallacy of false dilemma.

Whoever confesses their sins to Christ and accepts Him as savior and God and lives out His commandments will be saved.

That's a high level description that doesn't tell us the nature of Christ or what He taught. Some say He was just a man, in which case there's no way one can be saved. Others say He commanded us to hate our parents and therefore we should cut our ties. Simply saying, "Believe in Jesus!", isn't helpful. If you're not accurately taught the fullness of His commandments, then salvation becomes a big problem. Many "Christians" are saying that belonging to His Church and participating in the Sacramental life are not commandments (even more than that, they outright reject them), and in that case people are being led away from salvation. Perhaps some can lose weight while being fed potato chips and Coke, but it's prudent to tell the person that what they are eating is junk.

Matthew, it sounds like you'd be much happier in the Episcopal church or another denomination that'll say what you want to hear.
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« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2005, 12:35:22 AM »

This sounds like the pharisaism that I have been speaking of:

Matthew, it sounds like you'd be much happier in the Episcopal church or another denomination that'll say what you want to hear.

It is the truth that those who accept the Gospel of Christ will we saved, whether it is preached from the Orthodox Church or a Billy Graham crusade.

Churchianity
Overemphasis on ecclesiastical and denominational matters in Christianity.
The usually excessive or sectarian attachment to the practices and interests of particular church

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« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2005, 12:48:49 AM »

Churchianity
Overemphasis on ecclesiastical and denominational matters in Christianity.
The usually excessive or sectarian attachment to the practices and interests of particular church

This isn't a denominational matter.  Orthodoxy is THE Church, one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, the Body of Christ and the New Jerusalem.  Rejection of accommodation with those who have cut themselves off from that Body is not "excessive attachement" to Orthodox practices and interests, but a rejection of those who would preach a different Christ than the one we confess. 
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« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2005, 01:12:19 AM »

Whoever isn't against us is with us.
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2005, 01:26:10 AM »

On the other hand, one of the Evil One's nastiest deceptions may very well be to lead people into heterodox confessions while letting them think they've found the true Faith. Granted, God will save whomsoever He chooses, but salvation for those outside the Church is not guaranteed. The work of high-profile evangelicals makes our task of proclaiming Orthodoxy to the world more difficult, rather than aiding it. In that sense, he really is working against us.

This is a cop out... You're saying the church can't do it's work because there are other powerful preachers.. Gosh, I thought success in the face of adversity was supposed to be our 'claim to fame' as the true church... What is a church if it can't spread Christ's Word beyond it's doors?? Billy Graham and people like him have only been successful due to our being 'asleep at the switch' as the saying goes... What should the EO church due to minimize the interest in people like him? is that what we want.. less interest in hearing about Christ..?. It's not like we're out there 'preaching' to the masses and people are choosing against us... we're not out of our churches preaching at all.... It's like we're afraid to proactively spread the faith because we might not be successful if we really tried... The work of high - profile evangelicals should make our job easier... in social 'marketing' once someone starts talking about something... it's much easier for others to do so... Think of how the topic of gay marriage became the topic of the day everywhere, once one state broke the silence.  Billy Graham's high profile is an invitation for dialogue and preaching/teaching about Orthodoxy....but our hierarchs just don't 'get it'... they are too 'high' from the needs of the masses.  All we need is for Billy to convert to Orthodoxy and continue to spread the Gospel with his charismatic approach... and a saint might be in the making...

In XC, Kizzy





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« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2005, 01:30:41 AM »



What are the fruits of our Church in recent years? Laughable, that's what they are.

<snip>
No, our Church has been winding down, not due to heterodox, but due to ourselves! We think that some parts of the Gospel, such as Christ's condemnations to the Pharisees, were just for that time period. But they are meant for us, too.

And so as our Church was winding down, and as love was waning, as unity was breaking, and as people dying, we clutched to our little bit-o-truth and whispered to ourselves "we have the truth!"

clutching it close to our chest so that no one could see it, we forget about the parable of the talents. That was about money, right? Not about our Christian faith.

This is our fruit. While we are at all times to lead the world in generousity and love, we spend more time on festival preparations than on charity. I've been to several different Orthodox Churches, each for a few years. Not once was there a clear message or general impetus put on me by my fellow brothers and sisters, or by the clergy, to really do something for other people. It was always "attend more services" since that will make me holy. Somehow.


Amen.. my sentiments exactly!

Like my kids lament... no one is Orthodox... no one even knows what it is...!  They want to feel a part of something important... and not a 'clandestine' community...



In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2005, 02:14:09 AM »


This is a cop out... You're saying the church can't do it's work because there are other powerful preachers.. Gosh, I thought success in the face of adversity was supposed to be our 'claim to fame' as the true church... What is a church if it can't spread Christ's Word beyond it's doors?? Billy Graham and people like him have only been successful due to our being 'asleep at the switch' as the saying goes... What should the EO church due to minimize the interest in people like him? is that what we want.. less interest in hearing about Christ..?. It's not like we're out there 'preaching' to the masses and people are choosing against us... we're not out of our churches preaching at all.... It's like we're afraid to proactively spread the faith because we might not be successful if we really tried... The work of high - profile evangelicals should make our job easier... in social 'marketing' once someone starts talking about something... it's much easier for others to do so... Think of how the topic of gay marriage became the topic of the day everywhere, once one state broke the silence.  Billy Graham's high profile is an invitation for dialogue and preaching/teaching about Orthodoxy....but our hierarchs just don't 'get it'... they are too 'high' from the needs of the masses.  All we need is for Billy to convert to Orthodoxy and continue to spread the Gospel with his charismatic approach... and a saint might be in the making...

In XC, Kizzy


Couldn't have said it better myself (I did try, though. Wink )

You're totally right about that "sleeping at the switch"...that's exactly the term I think of sometimes.

Some more thoughts of mine:
I hate comparing our Church to other Christian groups as a way to gauge our health, as really it should be driven from inside and not from a sense of competition, BUT really it is quite alarming what I do see when I do compare.

I think that the fact that we're not well known is a blessing in disguise. Our situation is in so much disorder that there's no chance that we could face the onslaught from secular society that the Catholics and Protestants have been handling for all this time.  In fact, we've seen what happens when our Church faces challenges.  Look at how the Russians could do little.  And the Ecumenical Patriarch...talk about clinging onto life by a thread.  So we already have examples of how our modern Church handles challenges.

But eventually the heterodox will crumble (it's already started), and we'll be left. And once the Catholics and protestants collapse, will the atheists see us old and frail? Inneffective? Like how the Communists boxed the Russian church?

The woman in scripture told the people to "Come and see" Christ, the man who knew everything about her. But when we tell people to come and see our Churches, will they in fact see His body? Will they see Christ? Or will they see something else?

Let's appreciate and reflect upon those parishes that are true loving communities, and who's love for one another spills out to those outside. But no matter where we are, it will be God (not us) who says "Good and faithful servant." So until then, we must be aware that whatever we accomplish is good, but more ALWAYS MUST be done.
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2005, 03:23:44 AM »

I have to reply to this thread, although it is 3:10 in the morning and I have a paper due tomorrow.  I am an Orthodox college student, born and raised, and have just recently begun to appreciate the beauty of our Orthodox tradition.

You may lament the decrease in religiosity in Greece.  Have you been there?  I was there last summer and I must tell you- I have been all over Europe, and never have I seen such young clerics.  Churches are being constructed all over Greece- and young people are filling the monasteries and seminaries.  Is Greece more secular than it should be?  Absolutely.  However, the faith in Greece is taking a turn for the better.  I believe this.  As a Greek Orthodox Christian, I am very well aware of Greek "sensationalism".  The media constantly tries to portray the Church in a bad light, but given the present climate of religion, thank the Holy Trinity and The Theotokos, religion is on the increase.

When I look at the situation of Orthodoxy here in America, I thank God for all of the wonderful converts- many of whom changed my life.  It is such a blessing to have you!

To say that "Billy Graham" reaches alot of people is a lie.  I say it is a lie because Billy Graham does not preach any type of praxis.  There is no metanoia, or inner conversion.  Rather it is simply a "Do better again next time- and don't forget that sinner's prayer."  The reason why Evangelical Christianity is growing is because it is EASY.  PURE AND SIMPLE.

The Gospel Christ taught was not Easy.  For those that don't know, Catholicism is not in the position to pick up the slack.  Unfortunately, in most parts of the world, it has died.  It is up to us Orthodox to evangelize those around us by our prayers, but most importantly our actions, not bicker about why evangelicals are so successful.

To those that think any protestant denomination offers an alternative to salvation then I must tell you- you are completely wrong according to Orthodox theology.  This has never been a part of our tradition.  EVER.  It was not part of the Early Orthodox tradition.

Oh, and by the way.  Evangelicals like Billy Graham are against us.  They send money to "Evangelize" Ukraine and Greece and Russia.  They often do not consider Orthodox Christians Christian.  If they were real Christians they would go to Saudi Arabia and Iran, and do some real missionary work. 

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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2005, 04:21:03 AM »

emmanuelmelo,

I have to second you on this one. Every time I go back to Romania I see new churches being built, congregations outside the church on Sunday mornings because they can't all fit inside, old churches and monasteries being restored, incredibly young monks and nuns, and more and more priests - particularly, I see that a lot of villages which had to share a priest with 3 or 4 others now have their own.
In Britain, the last set of statistics I saw showed the Orthodox Church as the fastest growing 'denomination' of Christians apart from the Evangelicals, and no other church seemed to be growing at all - many are shrinking. I really don't see the pessimistic view some people have here. Maybe things are different in the states?

James
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« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2005, 06:27:04 AM »

This sounds like the pharisaism that I have been speaking of.

matthew, I think you need to learn what pharisaism is. That's not it.  Love for our fellow man is Christian. Love for those who preach teachings against the Church is Christian. Acceptance and propagation and support for those who preach teachings against the Church, by word, deed, or money, is not Christian.  What you are supporting here is not Orthodox thought....You had a whole change of heart, mind, and soul when it came to evolution (not that I think your reading of the fathers is correct) when you started to look into what the Church actually believes.

Look into what the Church believes here. It's not that Billy Graham isn't a good man, living as he thinks is best and teaching what he knows (or chooses to know.) Love is overwhelming in our Church. I dont think anyone harbors ill will towards him. We should indeed be praying for him, that he sees the Truth.
Being placating and exhibiting this sort of false ecumenism (Am I really using the word??) isn't.
You're making claims on salvation that Orthodoxy never does. There is no formula for salvation--why, if what you listed is all it took, then we're all saved! Halleluia! Assurance of salvation is a lovely thought, but it is anti-Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2005, 08:29:42 AM »

To those that think any protestant denomination offers an alternative to salvation then I must tell you- you are completely wrong according to Orthodox theology. This has never been a part of our tradition. EVER. It was not part of the Early Orthodox tradition.

Oh, and by the way. Evangelicals like Billy Graham are against us. They send money to "Evangelize" Ukraine and Greece and Russia. They often do not consider Orthodox Christians Christian. If they were real Christians they would go to Saudi Arabia and Iran, and do some real missionary work.


Yes, yes, yes...

To those who find not enough Love in Christ's Church, perhaps one needs to give more Love.
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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2005, 03:54:20 PM »

It is the truth that those who accept the Gospel of Christ will we saved, whether it is preached from the Orthodox Church or a Billy Graham crusade.

No, intellectual acceptance is not enough for salvation. Christ tells us in Matthew that those who don't help the poor are going to hell. He doesn't provide an exception for those who merely have "found Jesus in their hearts." Faith is never produced by mere intellectual assent; it's a process that builds through participating in the sacramental life and doing good. Call this sectarianism and intolerance if you like. The truth can't be dislodged by slogans and fads.

Overemphasis on ecclesiastical and denominational matters in Christianity.

We're not concerned about denominations, but only the Church. The Nicene Creed is very much ecclesiastical, telling us that the Lord's house is the One, Holy, Catholic Apostolic Church. Deny the Creed or any of its parts, and you're not Christian. Even the flaky WCC agrees with this.

Whoever isn't against us is with us.

That's if they are not teaching lies about Christ and His Church. A sect that tells folks that they don't need the Church and that our sacramental life is pharisaical does indeed set itself against us.
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« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2005, 04:12:21 PM »

One of the original points of this forum is that many non-Orthodox Christians live more charitable lives and perform more good works than most Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2005, 04:20:52 PM »

It is hard to deny that Graham is a man of God.
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« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2005, 04:37:28 PM »

One of the original points of this forum is that many non-Orthodox Christians live more charitable lives and perform more good works than most Orthodox Christians.

More good works than most Orthodox Christians? You're really in a position to make that call based on all your experience in the world of Orthodoxy, or your experience in the world in general outside of Cyberia?

The audacious immaturity of your posts I have to admit I find truly amazing. I'm glad you've figured Orthodoxy out so you can be its judge. Perhaps it's time to unplug the computer, step away from the monitor, and spend all of your time and resources engaging in the noble acts you're flaying everyone else for neglecting. Otherwise you're in danger or sounding like one of the characters in the parable you mentioned, and I'll give you a giant hint, it isn't the publican.
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« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2005, 04:42:54 PM »

Hey. I can admit that Billy Graham and other non-Orthodox have done more good than I could ever do. Some non-Orthodox Christans have done more good for the world than most Orthodox Christians would ever do.
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« Reply #71 on: April 25, 2005, 04:49:34 PM »

Have a blessed Lent Matthew.  I hope you use it to ponder the need for all of us to repent and do what is right in the sight of the Lord, as well as the need for all of us to critically examine ourselves instead of pointing out the failings of others as the wretched pharisee did. 

Setting up and knocking down straw men on the Internet over and over I fear will profit you little, and certainly does no good for anyone else.
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« Reply #72 on: April 25, 2005, 04:50:37 PM »

My point is that we should appreciate what Billy Graham and other non-Orthodox Christians do, not to tear Orthodox Christians down.
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« Reply #73 on: April 25, 2005, 04:52:27 PM »

Because you're in a perfect position to know what every Orthodox Christian out there does to help others and live their faith, right Matthew?  Since you're an all-knowing judge, would you perhaps care to tell me exactly what I do and what I need to do better?  And I'd like specifics, please, not vague straw man generalizations.
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« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2005, 04:54:52 PM »

It isn't too much of a generalization. There is a minority within the non-Orthodox Christian community who perform more good for the world than the individuals in the majority of the Orthodox Christian community. For this reason, I admire what these non-Orthodox Christians have done and hope to follow their example; not doctrinally but in their approach to evangelization and charity work.
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« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2005, 05:27:16 PM »

I'm going to play the BS card here.  Prove that that minority of non-Orthodox do more good than the majority of Orthodox.  And just so you know, stating a generalization and asserting it's true isn't proof.
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« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2005, 05:37:39 PM »

I agree Veniamin! The other question is how many orthodox Christians share in the work in "ecumenical" or community based charity works with other christians. In my parish of some 55 adults, my survey notes that something like 85% are actively involved in Food banks, soup kitchens, etc that are non-denominational. I remember that several old calendar parishes, that I am aware of, always serve the western Christmas Dinner at the local Soup Kitchen and homeless shelter so their western partners can observe their Christmas. In many cases it has been the Orthodox Christians who realizing the smallness of numbers locally , organize with other churches to provide needed works of mercy. Others work actively, as our church is often the newcomer in the area, with local services that already exist. We do not need to recreate and duplicate services already available. Where there is none, we organize it. An Excellent example of this is the Treehouse Ministry, located in the Antiochian Diocese of Witchita and the Mid-America under Bishop Basil. The Tree House serves single parents in the area---originally asked by OCCM to organize a shelter for unwed mothers, they changed their mission plan when they discovered the area had adequate housing services already--they instead started an entirely new ministry to meet the needs after the women had the babies with education, day care, and a cheap clothing store. To encourage participation in calsses, they provide vouchers to the women who attend and then let them use it to buy new clothes, diapers, baby food etc in the store.  Many young women have had their lives touched and accepted further counseling from otherodox clkergy and counselors.---Where indeed is the Love in the Orthodox Church?  It is shown everyday by the Laity and clergyu as they interact with the people around them with love and compassion.

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This was edited for grammar and to further develop some of the ideas more fully.
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« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2005, 05:38:48 PM »

Just look at John Paul II. There is nothing wrong with admitting that he did more good for the world than the average Orthodox Christian. He was a great man and a true servant of the Lord.
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« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2005, 06:09:51 PM »

Just look at John Paul II. There is nothing wrong with admitting that he did more good for the world than the average Orthodox Christian. He was a great man and a true servant of the Lord.

Veniamin asked you to prove it Matthew. Repeating and repeating unproven generalizations and assertions does not 'prove' them to be true.
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« Reply #79 on: April 26, 2005, 12:15:36 AM »

Why would I have to prove what good he did for the world? He did more good for the world than the average person of any church. My point in mentioning it is that Orthodoxy does not have a monopoly on true Christian life.
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« Reply #80 on: April 26, 2005, 07:07:46 AM »

Because when you make a claim, you're the one who has to prove it.  Still waiting.....
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« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2005, 11:21:30 AM »

Quote
Some non-Orthodox Christans have done more good for the world than most Orthodox Christians would ever do.

Matthew, that's a meaningless tautology that communicates no interesting information. Try this -- Some Orthodox Christians have done more good than most non-Orthodox Christians would ever do.

Quote
My point is that we should appreciate what Billy Graham and other non-Orthodox Christians do, not to tear Orthodox Christians down.

Rather, you're trying to provoke negative attention towards yourself.
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« Reply #82 on: April 26, 2005, 11:25:13 AM »

No, I am not. Compare John Paul II or Billy Graham to the average Orthodox Christian, or even the average person. Some people have done more good for the world than others. I would say that I am an average Orthodox Christian, and I can admit that Billy Graham has done more good for the world than I will ever do. See? It isn't that hard.
My only point in mentioning this is that one need not be Orthodox to be a good Christian.
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« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2005, 11:28:26 AM »

Matthew, it's not hard because it's a meaningless admission. Fer cryin' out loud, I bet Charles Manson has done more good than some who call themselves Christians.
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« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2005, 01:03:23 PM »

Matthew, it's not hard because it's a meaningless admission.

It helps to prove the point that Orthodoxy does not have a monopoly on Christian life. We may be The Church but we are not the only church. I am sorry if I have made you upset.

May peace be upon thee and with thy spirit.
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« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2005, 01:14:44 PM »

Gosh, this is the first time I agree with you on this thread, Matthew.

Let me rephrase.  We are The Church.  There are other churches, mind you, and lots of them, but we most certainly are The Church.

[sarcasm] I know some really good Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists.  I wonder if they are as much members of the True Church as we are?  Perhaps we should make icons of "St." Ghandi.  He's done more good than some of the slugs at my church.  Humph.  Let me tell you about them. 

But wait . . . . who am I to judge my brother?  Oh, to heck with that silliness, there are lots of good Muslims and they don't teach that.  Welcome to Luby's, The Church Cafateria.  Take what you like and leave the rest.  After all, why should religion involve difficult choices?  It should all be easy.[/sarcasm]
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« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2005, 01:18:56 PM »

Protestants and Catholics are not members of an eastern mystical religion. They, with us, belong to the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2005, 01:37:26 PM »

So, then, let's have an icon of "St." Martin Luther King Jr., shall we?  After all, he was a member of the Body of Christ, yes?

What about the "Jesus Only" Protestants.  Are they members of the Body of Christ?
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« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2005, 01:40:50 PM »

Matthew,

Strelets is right. I think you really are just a troll. A good-natured one to be sure, but a troll nevertheless.  Why do you seek to provoke us by making statements like the one you just made? Even though many of us love Catholics and Protestants, you know full well that we are not going to agree with this statement. It is really pointless to come here and keep saying the same things over and over again, have them rebutted, and then state them yet again. Why did you tell us all about your intention to go to a Benedictine monastery, when this was something highly personal that you knew most here wouldn't agree with, and then tell us that you didn't care what we thought anyway? If you want to be a Catholic because you think they have more love in their hearts, then God bless you, go and be one. It is very sad to lose you to Orthodoxy, but this is your decision. (One that you should not take lightly, and something that I could never advise you to do.) I know that you are very bright and capable, so why not do bright and capable things? You don't have to come here to get attention from us. You are valuable to God and I'm sureto many others as well.  And I hope you will find it in yourself to learn to love and embrace the Holy Orthodox faith.

Bob
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« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2005, 01:46:59 PM »

No, I am not. Compare John Paul II or Billy Graham to the average Orthodox Christian, or even the average person. Some people have done more good for the world than others. I would say that I am an average Orthodox Christian, and I can admit that Billy Graham has done more good for the world than I will ever do. See? It isn't that hard.
My only point in mentioning this is that one need not be Orthodox to be a good Christian.

You can't compare the excellent of one Church to the mediocre of another.  Elder Joseph the Hesychast blows the spirituality of Pope John Paul II out the window, as one example.  St Nicholas of Japan converted 30,000 Japanese between c. 1880-1910.  etc etc.  You don't have to be Orthodox to be a good Christian but we know that by being Orthodox you have the potential to excel over and above those who are not in the Church.
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