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Author Topic: New Pope causes fear  (Read 10588 times) Average Rating: 0
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Antiochian
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« on: April 20, 2005, 07:53:40 AM »

I've been reading through the Pope thread, and some of you share the same fear as I do.

This Pope seems hell bent on "uniting" all Christian faiths, his main focus being the 1000 year old schism with our church.

Now how do I interpret this? Do I interpret this as more Catholic proselytism in Orthodox countries? A vigorous Catholic campaign to cause schisms in Orthodox churches and bring them in union with Rome?

I am very worried about this, in fact I can't help but feel threatened.

Should I be?

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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2005, 08:08:51 AM »

Dear borther antiochian,

I do not think that anybody should be worried for the future of the Church. 

As far as answer on your question is concrned I belive that we will just have to wait and see.

Whatever the case might be, simple fact remains, unless there is a dogmatic shift in heterodox questions that Rome is keeping up and renauncement of the same, there will be no Orthodox-Latin re-unification. Just like Benedict XVI  have been the Latin defender of the faith before he became pope so are all of our sheperds defenders of Orthodoxy. I hold that Church will be able to act Orthodox way on whatever signals the curia sends.

Fides Orthodoxam semper.
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2005, 08:09:59 AM »

Maybe. I don't know. Does anyone actually know what Pope Benedict's attitude to the Orthodox Church and the Unia has been so far?

And please, no more of the anti-Semitic carp (translate to Romanian to get the intended word). Just because Joseph Ratzinger was in the Hitler youth as a child doesn't make him a Nazi. My Czech (but remarkably blond and blue-eyed), 'lost German' great uncle was forced into the Hitler youth also, followed by the Waffen SS. He wasn't anti-Semitic, or racist, or pro-German, or a Nazi by choice. About the only thing he shared with the Nazis was a hatred of communism, but so do I. You really shouldn't judge a person on acts beyond their control and from the distant past. After all we're interested in what Pope Benedict will do, not what the boy Joseph once did.

Sorry for the aside, but I've been annoyed by some of the ignorant comments I read. I really am interested if anyone can answer my and Antiochian's questions though.

James
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2005, 08:29:12 AM »

I, for one, trust our bishops and am secure in the Faith. I rather think that this new pope has his plate full with other problems. As much as many, including me, liked the last pope, I did not see a lot of action addressing the problems within Roman Catholicism over the last few years under Pope John Paul II. Their church in both Americas is under great stress and is being heavily proselytized by Moslems and Protestants. I don't see a continuing concerted effort to subvert the East at the expense or trade-off of their traditional strongholds.
Over the last couple of weeks there was an article floating on the Web and being quoted (but not discussed here) about the Russian Orthodox Church and the European Union. It made several good points. The largest church in Europe is now the Orthodox Church - thanks to the freeing of Russia. Perhaps it is our time to lead and not to just remain in reactionary mode. Even the most liberal of our mother Orthodox Churches is more conservative than most of Catholicism.
I am just waiting to see what comes out of Rome, but not worrying about it.
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2005, 11:03:50 AM »

The largest church in Europe is now the Orthodox Church - thanks to the freeing of Russia.

You mean, because the Ukraine is part of Europe now?  Otherwise, I still find that hard to believe.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2005, 11:08:18 AM »

The Ukraine has always been in Europe as has the most populated parts of Russia. Not so hard to believe.
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2005, 11:33:24 AM »

A priest friend pointed out that any unity is based on how the Cardinals greeted the new Pope...on their knees, in submission, and not as equals.  Something to think about.
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2005, 11:57:58 AM »

This link makes some points I didn't remember:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/04/19/new_pope_to_be_installed_on_sunday/
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2005, 12:14:14 PM »

I have doubts on the assertion that the Orthodox Church is now bigger than the Catholic Church in Europe, even with the inclusion of European Russia.

The 2004 Vatican Statistical Yearbook Annuario Pontificio[/i estimates the Catholic population of Europe at approximatley 290 million.

Pope Benedict XVI is an orthodox Catholic.

Amado
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2005, 12:44:20 PM »

Good old Amadeus. Always one to go one better. It wasn't my article and I surely doubt the 290 mill figure. No way.
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2005, 01:16:46 PM »

Elisha first expressed his doubts.

I just seconded! Evil

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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2005, 01:57:45 PM »

Going back to the thread's topic, this portion of the homily of His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, delivered during the celebration yesterday of his 1st Mass as Supreme Pontiff might be indicative of his own pontificate's ecumenism agenda:

Quote
x x x Nourished and sustained by the Eucharist, Catholics cannot but feel stimulated to tend towards that full unity for which Christ hoped in the Cenacle. Peter's Successor knows that he must take on this supreme desire of the Divine Master in a particularly special way. To him, indeed, has been entrusted the duty of strengthening his brethren.

Thus, in full awareness and at the beginning of his ministry in the Church of Rome that Peter bathed with his blood, the current Successor assumes as his primary commitment that of working tirelessly towards the reconstitution of the full and visible unity of all Christ's followers. This is his ambition, this is his compelling duty. He is aware that to do so, expressions of good feelings are not enough. Concrete gestures are required to penetrate souls and move consciences, encouraging everyone to that interior conversion which is the basis for all progress on the road of ecumenism.

Theological dialogue is necessary. A profound examination of the historical reasons behind past choices is also indispensable. But even more urgent is that 'purification of memory,' which was so often evoked by John Paul II, and which alone can dispose souls to welcome the full truth of Christ. It is before Him, supreme Judge of all living things, that each of us must stand, in the awareness that one day we must explain to Him what we did and what we did not do for the great good that is the full and visible unity of all His disciples.

The current Successor of Peter feels himself to be personally implicated in this question and is disposed to do all in his power to promote the fundamental cause of ecumenism. In the wake of his predecessors, he is fully determined to cultivate any initiative that may seem appropriate to promote contact and agreement with representatives from the various Churches and ecclesial communities. Indeed, on this occasion too, he sends them his most cordial greetings in Christ, the one Lord of all. x x x
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2005, 05:25:28 PM »

Sounds like the Antichrist may have a very big church to help him soon. My fear is that soon the Orthodox churches will 'reunite' with the Roman church and no longer be the Church. When the Antichrist comes what will he want? Christian Unity at all costs. A 'Church' that is fiercely loyal but not to Truth. And how big of a church will he have? A very big one! The biggest and most rotten: The Roman church. I apologize for offending anyone but the Roman church is a very rotten organization in many ways and is based on several great Lies. If such reunification takes place many people will leave the mainstream jurisdictions and join new jurisdictions in order to remain in the Church. Perhaps the mainstream Orthodox jurisdictions and ancient Patriarchs falling into heresy is the great falling away? Perhaps we will see this soon?
No one seems to realize what is really going on. This reconciliation everyone is talking about is a huge lie and fake love fest that produces such statements as just mentioned. They blur all paths to the Truth leading you to the dazzling muticoloured lamp of falsehood. They seek to place there own ambitions and goals over the Power of Truth and Spirit. They think that by their own efforts they can have what they want. It is all a big baloney shoveling contest.
As much as I admire the person of Benedict XVI I know that if he does anything helpful it will be to maintain the previous policies of the Roman church that have prevented any false reconciliation that has been sought by so many Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2005, 06:09:31 PM »

The biggest and most rotten: The Roman church. I apologize for offending anyone but the Roman church is a very rotten organization in many ways and is based on several great Lies.

Easy now Sabbas,  there is no institution on earth, administered by humans- that does not have some element of rottenness, even the Orthodox Church - the human acts always get tangled in politics at some level... I've seen it first hand at the parish and Metropolis level... some things are rotten here too...which is why all churches have had people leave. Let's give this new Pope a chance.  He is right on one thing... returning to unity is important... we can discuss the how this can be done to bring the truths both churches share into focus and then work on the differences ... but that it should be a goal ..absolutely...and, just as Catholics have been told they hold the Truth, so have we...we need to focus on our similarities and not differences..as a place to start...and then work from there.
In XC, Kizzy



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« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2005, 09:28:49 PM »

In John 17 where Jesus prays that His followers be one, it is so that the world, kosmos, will believe that the Father sent Him. This seems to imply that if there was a time when the Churches united, a dramatic effect would be many many people becoming Christians. A huge multitiude, worldwide.

Would doctrinal agreement have a massive effect on unbelievers? I believe it would have some effect, but not the conversion of multitudes.

What would? I think if we got back to having a reputation that the early church had, 'Look how those Christians love one another!'

God is Love.

God is Truth.

When we have both, the lost may find their way.

My guess is that the Holy Spirit wants to unite Christians, so that the prayer of Jesus will be answered. Why would the Antichrist want to unite Christians?

If it is true that the flock will remain a very small one, then Jesus' prayer in John 17 will not be answered. The kosmos will never believe. I think that is untenable.

Christina
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« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2005, 11:25:59 PM »


Easy now Sabbas, there is no institution on earth, administered by humans- that does not have some element of rottenness, even the Orthodox Church - the human acts always get tangled in politics at some level... I've seen it first hand at the parish and Metropolis level... some things are rotten here too...which is why all churches have had people leave. Let's give this new Pope a chance. He is right on one thing... returning to unity is important... we can discuss the how this can be done to bring the truths both churches share into focus and then work on the differences ... but that it should be a goal ..absolutely...and, just as Catholics have been told they hold the Truth, so have we...we need to focus on our similarities and not differences..as a place to start...and then work from there.
In XC, Kizzy

Kizzy I have to confess something. Inside I am still attached to the Old Roman Catholic church. As a kid I attended a very beautiful neo-gothic church, St.Mary's in Iowa City, many times. I was never baptized for many reasons I won't get into, but I lived as a Catholic for a long time. I very much like Benedict XVI. I still go to Latin Mass websites because I still feel the awe and atmosphere that once enthralled me and made me love the Roman church. However I ultimately became Orthodox after much prayer and study.
Quote
just as Catholics have been told they hold the Truth, so have we
I was never told growing up that the Orthodox Church is the True Church. I was told by relatives that the Roman church was truly Catholic and Apostolic. If all I was doing was going with what I was told than I would be a conservative RC in SSPX right now. However I discovered that their is a difference between what the Roman church teaches and the Orthodox Church teaches. The difference is that the Roman church has fallen into heresy and in fact many in the Roman church realize it inside when the study church history which is why they are so interested in apologizing for 1204 and promote Ecumenism. They simply cannot make the change of heart and mind to accept the Truth.
Just because we have similarities does not change the fact that only the Church, the Body of Christ, is THE CHURCH. The Roman Catholics follow a heresy and are no longer part of the Theandric Organism of the Church. They are a member that has been cut off and is now in a state of decomposition or rotting. If the majority of the jurisdictions that are now part of the Orthodox Church reunite and have intercommunion with the Roman church without the theological difference resolved through the Roman church throwing off their heretical teachings than many will leave and go to new jurisdictions to remain in the Church. You already have a growing number of people leaving to join the Old Calendar jurisdictions such as the Genuine Orthodox Church or Florinite synod which is huge both in Greece and America.

In John 17 where Jesus prays that His followers be one, it is so that the world, kosmos, will believe that the Father sent Him. This seems to imply that if there was a time when the Churches united, a dramatic effect would be many many people becoming Christians. A huge multitiude, worldwide.

Would doctrinal agreement have a massive effect on unbelievers? I believe it would have some effect, but not the conversion of multitudes.

What would? I think if we got back to having a reputation that the early church had, 'Look how those Christians love one another!'

God is Love.

God is Truth.

When we have both, the lost may find their way.

My guess is that the Holy Spirit wants to unite Christians, so that the prayer of Jesus will be answered. Why would the Antichrist want to unite Christians?

If it is true that the flock will remain a very small one, then Jesus' prayer in John 17 will not be answered. The kosmos will never believe. I think that is untenable.

Christina

Quote
Ver. 21. "That they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me and I in Thee."

Here again the "as" doth not denote exact similarity in their case, (for it was not possible for them in so great a degree,) but only as far as was possible for men. Just as when He saith "Be ye merciful, as your Father." (Luke vi. 36.)

But what is, "In Us"?7 In the faith which is on Us. Because nothing so offends all men as divisions, He provideth that they should be one. "What then," saith some one, "did He effect this?" Certainly He effected it. For all who believe through the Apostles are one, though some from among them were torn away. Nor did this escape His knowledge, He evenforetold it, and showed that it proceeded from men's slack-mindedness.

"That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me."

As He said in the beginning, "By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples, if ye love one another," And how should they hence believe? "Because," He saith, "Thou art a God of peace." If therefore they observe the same as those of whom they have learnt, their hearers shall know the teacher by the disciples, but if they quarrel, men shall deny that they are the disciples of a God of peace, and will not allow that I, not being peaceable, have been sent from Thee. Seest thou how, unto the end, He proveth His unanimity with the Father?
St.John Chrysostom

I think our Golden-mouthed Saint has spoken. Those who follow the teachings handed down are of the Apostles and made one. Those who do not adhere to what has been handed down, Roman Catholics, Protestants, etc. Can only be made One with us through confessing the Faith delivered by the Saints. Those who are truly Christians are those who have the Church as their mother for only in this way can you truly have God as your Father. Those who confess heretical doctrines unwillingly are called Christians out of love and charity for they do not know any better. Indeed God wants us all to be one but it is up to each individual to decide.
Doctrines are not just formulas in book. They are what we believe, how we live our lives in Christ. If you do not confess the doctrines of the Orthodox Faith than you cannot be in the Orthodox Church period! Heresy is no different from Atheism. Either you believe in and love the True God or you are just worshipping an elaborate formula and idea in your head. Some people outside the Church are very close to loving and knowing God but the only way to truly live your life in God is in His Church.

Why does the Antichrist want a great big 'Christian' church? This is quite obvious. So that he can drag as many people as possible into Hell. He will court religion and get people to love him as a very spritual man before he finally will attempt to obliterate Jesus Christ and put himself in our Lord's place. People can be fooled and dazzled and led astray very easily when they believe that because their church is so big and unified and 'loving' that it is the True Church. They will be in Synagogues of Satan.
I warn you. Do not go about interpreting the Scriptures on your own. The demons can whisper lies to us even when reading the Gospel.
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2005, 12:12:53 AM »


Kizzy I have to confess something. Inside I am still attached to the Old Roman Catholic church. As a kid I attended a very beautiful neo-gothic church, St.Mary's in Iowa City, many times. I was never baptized for many reasons I won't get into, but I lived as a Catholic for a long time. I very much like Benedict XVI. I still go to Latin Mass websites because I still feel the awe and atmosphere that once enthralled me and made me love the Roman church. However I ultimately became Orthodox after much prayer and study.

snip


Why does the Antichrist want a great big 'Christian' church? This is quite obvious. So that he can drag as many people as possible into Hell. He will court religion and get people to love him as a very spritual man before he finally will attempt to obliterate Jesus Christ and put himself in our Lord's place. People can be fooled and dazzled and led astray very easily when they believe that because their church is so big and unified and 'loving' that it is the True Church. They will be in Synagogues of Satan.
I warn you. Do not go about interpreting the Scriptures on your own. The demons can whisper lies to us even when reading the Gospel.

Sabbas,  I too like some of the old Roman Catholic church... esp the Gregorian chant and the old Tridentine mass, which I had gone to on various occasions with friends...I always visit St. Patricks when I'm in NYC at Christmas...and I feel my Orthodox faith in that church...I have been to St. Peter's as well and also St. Mark's in Venice, very Byzantine inside...I knelt beside St. Mark's coffin which is right there under the altar...So, to me these are still houses of the one God...

  I think the current Pope feels the same way about the old church... It was interesting seeing the Mass in Latin, so different from the short masses that most churches offer( I add, out of necessity because they have so many parishioners to get through in a Sunday).  However, I don't think the anti-christ would want one united church in the name of Christ. According to St. John:


"Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son" (1 John 2:22);

My understanding is that the Anti-christ will deny Christ as the Son of the Father... I think a united church would be the best 'defense' against the Anti-christ...you know not 'divide and conquer'...I think the current Pope wants to get things right... at least that is my understanding from his speech..Let us hope so... that would be a step in the right direction....
In XC, Kizzy



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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2005, 12:42:33 AM »

Ultimately there will come a point when the Antichrist we attempt to deny the Incarnation and try and make himself the Mediator between God and Man. Some prophecies say that at the anointing ceremony of the Antichrist as the New Christian King that the Creed will be read and when it comes to the, "And I believe in One Lord . . ." the Antichrist will become enraged and order that his name be said. As far out as this sounds it makes sense. A lot of people embrace New Age ideas and have become receptive to the Antichristian theology of men such as Teilhard de Chardin and Andrew Sullivan. They do not believe in Jesus Christ anymore they worship someone else. Dress the Devil up like Jesus they will worship him.

Their another discussion that just started on the Ecumenism Conference in Thessaloniki that I think you should read more about
http://uncutmountain.com/uncut/docs/Conclusions_of_the_Conference_on_Ecumenism.pdf
The conclusions they came to are as accurate and faithful a report on the Heresy of Ecumenism as you can get. Please read the article and at least consider its conclusions as valid.
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2005, 06:30:59 AM »

Why would the Antichrist want to unite Christians?

Dear Christina,

I can see several possible reasons why Antichrist would want to work through a false ecumenism based on "love, not doctrine".

Our Lord Jesus Christ warns us: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24
What better way to decieve the elect than to tell them that their holding on to Tradition is contradicting the law of love? "You are unloving if you don't seek unity at all costs, even at the cost of keeping the Apostolic Tradition." Anyone who does not accept this "unity of love not doctrine" will very easily be seen as reactionary, an enemy of the new "superchurch".

I absolutely and unequivocally will oppose, to my dying day, any form of false ecumenism which is not based on doctrinal unity- "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism". The reactions of others to this position is already: "he is an extremist", "he is unloving", "he lacks Christian charity"....etc. If this becomes the position of the new "superchurch" which is uniterd on the basis of "love not doctrine", I'm sure you will soon see who are really the unloving ones as the "extremists" start being eliminated one by one.

If Antichrist unites Christians on the basis of "love, not doctrine", he is seen as a saviour who brings peace. But if we forget the doctrines revealed by God, gradually we turn from him, and towards our new "saviour".

And what really annoys me, is that people who follow the "love not doctrine" basis for unity, dont even seem to realise that Our Lord's teachings on Love are only contained in the Apostolic Tradition they seek to replace with their brand of "love".

The reality is, the Church has never been divided. Christ cannot have two or more Bodies. There can only be one Body, One Church, as St. Paul puts it: "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism". The prayer of Christ in John 17 shows us that the Icon of the Trinity- "that they may be one, even as We are One". This prayer has already been answered.

To say that this prayer is not answered yet tis to say that the"One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" does not exist now but will exist in the future- clearly a false teaching.
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 08:18:28 AM »

Quote
The 2004 Vatican Statistical Yearbook  Annuario Pontificio[/i estimates the Catholic population of Europe at approximatley 290 million.

Pope Benedict XVI is an orthodox Catholic.


What does this mean exactly? He belongs to the Uniats? I've seen it in the profile of many members in this forum, is it the same?
Excuse my ingorance on the issue, but it seems that just a few years ago the world would be Orthodox, Catholic or Muslim for me.

Also, it seems that lately the people tend to focus on the humanitarian part of Christianity, and ignore the liturgical part. To me, it seems that the Antichrist will begin to talk about love, compassion and all the things Jesus talked about, but instead completely ignore the faith part of Christianity (which is more important to me), and in time, when there is barely any faith left, he will elevate himself as the son of God.
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2005, 08:30:55 AM »

Ntinos,

I believe that you are getting confused between orthodoxy and Orthodoxy. If someone describes themself as an Orthodox Catholic they mean that they are Orthodox (Catholic being used as in 'One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church'). If you describe someone as an orthodox Roman Catholic however, you aren't saying that they follow the Orthodox faith but that their beliefs are those that are considered orthodox (normal if you like) for a Roman Catholic - i.e. not those of a liberal reformer or some such.

Pope Benedict XVI is not an eastern rite Catholic (so not Uniate as you put it) and he is certainly not Orthodox with a capital 'O'. Sometimes the capitalisation of a word really does matter, though as I assume English is not your first language your confusion is more than understandable.

James
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2005, 08:39:59 AM »

Ntinos,

I believe that you are getting confused between orthodoxy and Orthodoxy. If someone describes themself as an Orthodox Catholic they mean that they are Orthodox (Catholic being used as in 'One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church'). If you describe someone as an orthodox Roman Catholic however, you aren't saying that they follow the Orthodox faith but that their beliefs are those that are considered orthodox (normal if you like) for a Roman Catholic - i.e. not those of a liberal reformer or some such.

Pope Benedict XVI is not an eastern rite Catholic (so not Uniate as you put it) and he is certainly not Orthodox with a capital 'O'. Sometimes the capitalisation of a word really does matter, though as I assume English is not your first language your confusion is more than understandable.

James


Thank you very much for your answer. I'm from Greece, so english is not my first language, which gets me in trouble from time to time when speaking english.

When our friends in the forum suggest they are "Orthodox Catholic", they mean that they are like Pope Benedict (Ratzinger), Roman Catholics following the orthodox way of their Church?
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2005, 08:44:54 AM »



 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24...<snip>
I absolutely and unequivocally will oppose, to my dying day, any form of false ecumenism which is not based on doctrinal unity- "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism".


In the discussion between EO and RC at least, they will never deviate from this... both churches have a profound belief in One Lord, One Baptism, One Faith...and a triune God.... I don't believe for example the Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, or Amish, or the Unity Church would be approached for unity....they were not born directly out of a break from the original church... I'm not sure anyone really cares about these three faiths and others like them when unity is spoken of...

My understanding is that the ecumenism effort focuses on those that were 'born' from a break with the original Church.. Actually to me, the only ecumenism to focus on initially is the RC/EO dialogue...I would want to start on that alone since to me that was the seed that created all the other splits.. and then deal with other issues...

In XC, Kizzy



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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2005, 08:48:04 AM »

The biggest and most rotten: The Roman church.

If you feel this way about the Roman Church, then what, might I ask, are you views on the Episcoplian Church in the USA? Gay bishop...some bishops who deny the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Christ, accept abortion and the pill. If I would ever consider a church working hand-in-hand with the Antichrist it would be a church that disregards scripture and 2000 yrs of holy tradition to just be relevant and totally modern. With all the ills in Roman, I just don't see any of that...especially with this Pope, at least he's "orthodox" from a Roman Catholic point of view.
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2005, 08:54:12 AM »



Thank you very much for your answer. I'm from Greece, so english is not my first language, which gets me in trouble from time to time when speaking english.

When our friends in the forum suggest they are "Orthodox Catholic", they mean that they are like Pope Benedict (Ratzinger), Roman Catholics following the orthodox way of their Church?

No, I don't believe so. I think they mean they are Orthodox, as you and I are. If they'd written orthodox Catholic then yes, I'd agree with your impression.

I think all they're saying by using that description is that it is we Orthodox that are the true Catholics as it is the Orthodox Church that is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Creed. They are basically unwilling to let the Roman Catholics appropriate a term which shouldn't, at least from our perspective, apply to them at all.

Oh, how much easier it is to discuss these things in Romanian where catolic means (Roman) Catholic and sobornicesc means Catholic (as in the Creed). Does Greek make any such distinction?

James
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2005, 08:58:08 AM »

monkvasyl,

I agree, and it's not much better with the Anglicans here in the UK. On top of which they're a perfect foreshadowing of some future unified pseudo-church, managing somehow to contain people with beliefs as disparate as Calvinism and Anglo-Catholicism in the same 'church'. Clearly unity of faith is not an Anglican strong point either.

James
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2005, 09:15:01 AM »


Oh, how much easier it is to discuss these things in Romanian where catolic means (Roman) Catholic and sobornicesc means Catholic (as in the Creed). Does Greek make any such distinction?

James

In Greek, there's only the "general" word Catholic, which means means catholic, and has it's roots in ancient Greek, so we only have one word meaning catholic (as in catholic) and Catholic (as in Roman Catholic). Over the times, after the schizm, because the Latins had a larger Church and we were mentioned as Orthodox, the word Catholic came to be used in Greek for the Roman Catholics.

As for the Anglican Church, it doesn't really seem to reakise that the head of the Church is Jesus Himself and not the King.
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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2005, 09:21:01 AM »

I agree, and it's not much better with the Anglicans here in the UK. On top of which they're a perfect foreshadowing of some future unified pseudo-church, managing somehow to contain people with beliefs as disparate as Calvinism and Anglo-Catholicism in the same 'church'. Clearly unity of faith is not an Anglican strong point either.

It's arguable that faith period isn't on the Anglican radar screen at all.  In the US for certain (and probably elsewhere, as well), Anglicanism has become a religious umbrella for a number of individual social movements.  As I very cynically joke (and no offense to our Anglican members intended), I used to be Episcopalian, but then I converted to Christianity.
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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2005, 09:38:36 AM »



It's arguable that faith period isn't on the Anglican radar screen at all. In the US for certain (and probably elsewhere, as well), Anglicanism has become a religious umbrella for a number of individual social movements. As I very cynically joke (and no offense to our Anglican members intended), I used to be Episcopalian, but then I converted to Christianity.

So true. I was a Lutheran but used to attend Anglican services because there are hardly any Lutheran churches in England. My biggest confusion was caused by the fact that I could go into one church and find they were almost Lutheran, yet another and find it filled with the glazed-eyed 'happy clappy' brigade, and yet another and I could be forgiven for thinking I'd taken a wrong turn and gone to an RC church by mistake. I never understood how the Anglican church was any kind of a church at all, and this as a Protestant with a really quite nebulous idea of what a church is.

To me, the Anglican church seems to be more of a social club for the vaguely religious/moral, with coffee mornings and jumble sales often more important than the Liturgy. This is perhaps less true on high church end of the scale, but then I can't understand how they can possibly be in the same church as the others. The Anglican church is so broad it's vanished into the distance.

That's not to say I haven't met individual Anglicans who are genuine Christians with strong faiths, but they seem few and far between and it's beyond me how they can continue on in that church.

James
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« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2005, 10:36:50 AM »

Don't forget the sherry after the "mass".  I wonder if Henry VIII would reconize or even want to be associated with the church he founded?
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« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2005, 10:43:16 AM »

I wonder what kind of dialogue Pope Benedict XVI will have with Protestants?  I'm sure they still "smart" from his comment that they are not really a church. 

But I'm sure the office of the papcy will change or soften  him somewhat.  I remember a deacon on the eve of his ordination to the priesthood, said he would follow and apply the Canons as they are written.  Several of us tried to convience him that would not work.  Months later when we met him, he said once he got a parish he realized he couldn't apply the Canons as he originally said he would.  He soften his approach, I'm sure Benedict will also do the same, during his short time with us.  He even feels his papacy will be measured by years.
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« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2005, 11:04:48 AM »

Don't forget the sherry after the "mass". I wonder if Henry VIII would reconize or even want to be associated with the church he founded?

Isn't it about time a moderator stepped in and put an end to the cheap anti-Anglican potshots?
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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2005, 11:22:58 AM »

Let us read what some Orthodox hierarchs and some of the world's leaders say about Benedict XVI:

"I offer heartfelt congratulations on Your election to the ancient Roman office. I wish You God's help in the high service of leading the Roman Catholic church. Our (RC and Orthodox) churches, which have authority and influence, should unite their efforts to spread Christian values to modern humankind. The secular world is losing its spiritual way and needs our joint testimony as never before." - Patriarch Alexiy II, Russian Orthodox Church

--------------------------------------

"I greet Your Holiness with brotherly love in Christ on the occasion of your election as Bishop of Rome and successor to the ancient See of Saint Peter. As you assume the responsibilities and heavy burdens of the ministry with which you have been entrusted, I wish to assure you of my brotherly esteem and prayerful best wishes.

"Your ever-memorable predecessor, His Holiness Pope John Paul II, was greatly respected by many Orthodox Christians throughout the world. It is my sincere hope and prayer that Your Holiness will be inspired by his example and will continue to work for the realization of our Lord’s high-priestly prayer, 'That all may be one' (John 17:21).

"Be assured of my steadfast prayer that Almighty God will bless you with strength and good health, so that you may serve Christ and the flock with which He has entrusted you for many long and fruitful years. As you begin your pontificate, may the Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and all the Saints, intercede for you before the Throne of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal High Priest."  Metropolitan Herman, Primate of the Orthodox Church in America

------------------------

"This is a great honour for Germany. I think he will be a worthy successor to Pope John Paul II. I congratulate him on behalf of the government and all Germans." - German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder

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"His Holiness brings a wealth of experience to this exalted office. The United Nations and the Holy See share a strong commitment to peace, social justice, human dignity, religious freedom and mutual respect among the world's religions. The Secretary-General looks forward to the contributions His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI will make in strengthening those values." - UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan

-----------------------

"I want to offer congratulations to Pope Benedict XVI, a man of great wisdom, and knowledge. He's a man who serves the Lord. And we remember well a sermon at the pope's funeral in Rome -- how his words touched our hearts and the hearts of millions. We join our fellow citizens and millions around the world who pray for continued strength and wisdom as His Holiness leads the Catholic Church." - US President George Bush

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I send Pope Benedict XVI my warmest congratulations and sincere good wishes for the high mission that has just been entrusted on the head of the Catholic Church - French President Jacques Chirac

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"I ... state the willingness of the government of Spain to sustain the historic relations between Spain and the Holy See and to cooperate with Your Holiness during your mandate. I take this opportunity, Your Holiness, to send you the testimony of my highest consideration and esteem." - Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, Spanish Prime Minister

----------------------

"May your acceptance of this tremendous burden of service bear fruit in our world. May God give you strength for these new cares." - Irish President Mary Mcaleese

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"The Queen of England and the Duke of Edinburgh have sent a private message with their best wishes." - Buckingham Palace

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"I certainly express the feelings of all Italians, and am particularly delighted, when I present Your Holiness with the warm and respectful homage of the Italian government." - Silvio Berlusconi, Italian Prime Minister

--------------------

Some one here already carries a big stick with his unflattering remarks. I hope he has a heart equally as big for him to be able to carry that stick when it becomes bigger and heavier!

Amado
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2005, 11:29:38 AM »

.... I don't believe for example the Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, or Amish, or the Unity Church would be approached for unity....

I'm sorry, Kizzy, no disrespect is intended, but I must object to including the Amish with the JW's, Mormons and Unity (non-trinitarian and not Christian in the ordinary sense, though Mormons would I think disagree with that) The Amish and Mennonites are Trinitarian. They come from the Anabaptist movement from Switzerland orignally:

http://www.clark-cty-wi.org/historya&m.htm
http://www.amish.net/faq.asp

There would be no Amish visiting this forum, as if they are members of their church they do not use computers or other modern technology, it varies by group fyi (formally joining happens in young adulthood, before that the youth often own cars or drive or do others things that are not allowed to church members) but if anyone from an Amish-Mennonite background or who has not yet joined should come here I wanted to give correct information. Many people don't know alot about the Amish, perhaps beyond seeing "Witness" or a drive through parts of Pennsylvania or Ohio.

Ebor
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« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2005, 11:30:12 AM »

come on, no potshots. one more attack on anyone, i don't care who, and this thread gets closed.

call me an [fill in word here] sympathizer, but I don't care.
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« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2005, 11:36:36 AM »

Thank you, Cap't. 

I was wondering just how this managed to veer into shredding the Anglicans. One might suggest that those on the outside may not understand or have knowledge of what's inside perhaps?  (also just what is wrong with having sherry after mass? Though depending on time of day other beverages may be consumed.  I've seen Vodka after EO liturgies.  Wink)

Ebor
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2005, 11:56:39 AM »

Latest comments from Pope Benedict XVI on ecumencial dialogue:

http://www.boston.com:80/news/world/europe/articles/2005/04/21/from_new_pontiff_a_vow_of_openness

I was rather intrigued that he will be staying in his old apartment until the Papal apartments are ready. Imagine the President deciding to stay in his own home for the time being. The pope must be driving his security team crazy!
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2005, 12:10:05 PM »

No, he is not staying at his apartment. He will continue his lodging at the Domus inside the Vatican, together with the other conclave Cardinals until the Papal Apartment is readied. He went there to break the seal with the Camarlengo yesterday.

He went back to his apartment also yesterday to pick up some things he left when he joined the other conclave Cardinals at the Domus. He caused quite a stir when he was seen by alert media hounds walking to his apartment  with security in tow. Pandemonium broke lose as thousands converged on His Holiness. The "men in black" had a hard time preserving a room for maneuver for their asset!  But shook every extended hand and blessed and kissed some children in the crowd.

Yesterday was his first close encounter with the public as Pope.

Amado
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« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2005, 12:27:43 PM »

They just released the pope's email address:  benedictxvi@vatican.va
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« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2005, 12:58:14 PM »

This means that if I write to him, he will answer?
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« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2005, 01:17:51 PM »

No, it means you CAN now write to him with the speed of  e-mail!

Will HE personally answer back? I don't think His Holiness Benedict XVI, or any Pope or Orthodox chief hierarch for that matter, has the sufficient time to answer thousands, if not millions, of letters sent to his office.

I think  some person or persons in the Vatican communications office will do the answering. The e-mail address has been jammed every minute with thousands of congratulotory messages from around the world since it was revealed.

So, if you do send an e-mail, expect your answer for a little while longer.

Amado
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« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2005, 01:42:01 PM »

You already have a growing number of people leaving to join the Old Calendar jurisdictions such as the Genuine Orthodox Church or Florinite synod which is huge both in Greece and America.


Please define 'huge' for me quantitatively speaking.  I'm not doubting, just want to be able to determine scope.  Thanks.
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« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2005, 02:27:26 PM »

"There would be no Amish visiting this forum, as if they are members of their church they do not use computers or other modern technology, it varies by group fyi (formally joining happens in young adulthood, before that the youth often own cars or drive or do others things that are not allowed to church members) but if anyone from an Amish-Mennonite background or who has not yet joined should come here I wanted to give correct information.  Many people don't know alot about the Amish, perhaps beyond seeing "Witness" or a drive through parts of Pennsylvania or Ohio."

Just a note to clarify. I live amongst the Amish here in Northern Indiana, and yes they do use computers quite frequently, at work and in public libraries. 
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« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2005, 07:49:40 PM »

come on, no potshots. one more attack on anyone, i don't care who, and this thread gets closed.

call me an [fill in word here] sympathizer, but I don't care.
Just don't shoot me!

Don't forget the sherry after the "mass". I wonder if Henry VIII would reconize or even want to be associated with the church he founded?
I really have to agree that that is going too far. There are still a lot of Anglo-Catholic churches. I think that Henry VIII would recognize those.
If you feel this way about the Roman Church, then what, might I ask, are you views on the Episcoplian Church in the USA?  Gay bishop...some bishops who deny the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Christ, accept abortion and the pill.  If I would ever consider  a church working hand-in-hand with the Antichrist it would be a church that disregards scripture and 2000 yrs of holy tradition to just be relevant and totally modern.  With all the ills in Roman, I just don't see any of that...especially with this Pope, at least he's "orthodox" from a Roman Catholic point of view.
All I can say is that they are at least honest. Roman Catholicism is wrapped in lies. Peel them away and what is at the core? A big rotten lie. This is not an attack it is the truth. Go ahead and deny it but those of us who have studied Church history know better.
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2005, 08:32:22 PM »


Just a note to clarify. I live amongst the Amish here in Northern Indiana, and yes they do use computers quite frequently, at work and in public libraries.

Are they powered by steam?? When I was in PA at an educational center they showed how they converted electrical appliances, like cake mixers, to be powered otherwise...like with steam...They are not allowed to be connected to the outside world.  They also explained how no one is allowed school after the 8th grade because they feel beyond that,  one only becomes more curious about the outside world and the knowledge is not needed for living in the Amish community.  Perhaps in Indiana it is different...
Kizzy.
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