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Author Topic: " Our Lord God the Pope ".  (Read 1546 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 17, 2014, 07:16:10 PM »

In thread in the News section, there was a discussion about the topic if the Pope is Christ on Earth...etc.

The thread is here http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,59066.msg1140847/topicseen.html#msg1140847

Sense I will go on with the discussion, and as far as I know, that is not allowed in the News section. I will have to finish the discussion here.


What does the title "  Our Lord God the Pope " means ?

It mentioned here...

" The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII says this:

But to believe that our Lord God the Pope the establisher of said decretal, and of this, could not decree, as he did decree, should be accounted heretical (emphasis added).v "






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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2014, 07:21:04 PM »

The source of such claim is here


http://biblelight.net/Extravagantes.htm

Go to the third letter where it shows the quote of the original message where it says " Our Lord God the Pope ". It was originally written in Latin and it says " Dnm Deu nrm papa ".

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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2014, 07:30:16 PM »

 Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 07:33:40 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?

It might be anti-Catholic website. and I think it is, but is the claim true ? They provide what supposed to be a letter written in Latin and it says that verse.
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 07:35:03 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?
the text
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 07:39:09 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?
the text


It claims that the verse  " Dnm Deu nrm Papa " is the one says " Our Lord God the Pope ".

Notice DeuGod in Latin translated into Deus. Hmm, Deu/Deus. Do both mean different things ?
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 07:44:38 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?

It might be anti-Catholic website. and I think it is, but is the claim true ? They provide what supposed to be a letter written in Latin and it says that verse.

I don't know.  It could be.  If it is, it was an over zealous commentator, not a title actually claimed by the Bishop of Rome.
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 07:55:15 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?

It might be anti-Catholic website. and I think it is, but is the claim true ? They provide what supposed to be a letter written in Latin and it says that verse.

I don't know.  It could be.  If it is, it was an over zealous commentator, not a title actually claimed by the Bishop of Rome.

Well, I will pray for the soul of the man who said such awful idiotic thing, calling the Pope God!! Talking about slippery slope
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 08:23:14 PM »

Dei in Latin is a form of Deus. I would assume Deu is also.
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 08:33:16 PM »

Dei in Latin is a form of Deus. I would assume Deu is also.

It sounds like if a website is anti-Catholic, doesn't mean all what it says are lies. does it ?

I hope the Pope who got the letter said something to the fool who called him God. Like warning him or something.

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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 08:37:56 PM »

Dei in Latin is a form of Deus. I would assume Deu is also.

It sounds like if a website is anti-Catholic, doesn't mean all what it says are lies. does it ?

I hope the Pope who got the letter said something to the fool who called him God. Like warning him or something.

Well, you should check everything to make sure it's accurate. There was one anti-Catholic website that was so inaccurate* that people who are ignorant could be duped by it if they don't check all of it's claims.
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 08:52:22 PM »

Dei in Latin is a form of Deus. I would assume Deu is also.

It sounds like if a website is anti-Catholic, doesn't mean all what it says are lies. does it ?

I hope the Pope who got the letter said something to the fool who called him God. Like warning him or something.

Well, you should check everything to make sure it's accurate. There was one anti-Catholic website that was so inaccurate* that people who are ignorant could be duped by it if they don't check all of it's claims.

In general no matter what the website is, we should check everything to make sure it is true.

Speaking of anti-Catholic websites, I come across some Catholic websites that are anti-Protestantism, and sometimes they go too far and you can feel the anger and hate they have toward Protestants. May the Lord spread His love among all His people.
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2014, 09:09:45 PM »

Deu wouldnt add up to meaning God, as it is not a proper form of the noun deus, -i (M)
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 09:15:30 PM »

Deu wouldnt add up to meaning God, as it is not a proper form of the noun deus, -i (M)


Well, what does it mean then ? Because I tried to search for a meaning for the term Deu, and all what I got is Deus.

I think maybe one of the Traditionalist Catholics here can help us with it.
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2014, 09:19:39 PM »

Deu wouldnt add up to meaning God, as it is not a proper form of the noun deus, -i (M)


I think that the tilde-like figure above the u is actually an m, so that we have deum (the accusative singular of deus), as the scribe also does that with "hereticu(m)". That being said, I'm not in any way knowledgeable with Latin palaeography, so I can't say for sure.
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 10:15:50 PM »

Oh.  At first I thought it was a Yeshuaisiam thread.
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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 10:18:57 PM »

Oh.  At first I thought it was a Yeshuaisiam thread.

Tadaaaaa, it's me. Raylight.
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 10:28:27 PM »

Oh.  At first I thought it was a Yeshuaisiam thread.

Tadaaaaa, it's me. Raylight.
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 11:33:48 PM »

Oh.  At first I thought it was a Yeshuaisiam thread.

Tadaaaaa, it's me. Raylight.
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Thank you very much.  Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 12:46:43 AM »

Medieval Latin had a lot of sigla, so much so that whole syllables could just be represented with a mark -- sometimes the same mark for last syllables regardless of declension. I wouldn't feel any compulsion to believe the MS says what an anti-Catholic website says it says.

A similar accusation that used to interest me is a papal title (translated) "Vicar of Christ." That one is much more believable, yet I've heard Catholics say it is slander.
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 01:03:02 AM »

Maybe it's something like godly?
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 01:32:21 PM »

Where are the Traditionalist Catholics ?! I thought they know Latin kind of well. I'm not joking, I'm serious. Where are they ?
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 01:36:50 PM »

Where are the Traditionalist Catholics ?! I thought they know Latin kind of well. I'm not joking, I'm serious. Where are they ?
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 01:38:12 PM »

If I were a traditional Catholic I wouldn't be hanging around a forum with a bunch of schismatic Greeks!  Tongue

What's that trad Catholic place, fisheaters? Maybe try there?
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 01:40:17 PM »

.....
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2014, 02:03:45 PM »

http://klaravonassisi.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/the-truth-about-the-anti-catholic-charge-of-lord-god-the-pope/

It is a comment to canon law, not cannon law. And the "lord god the pope" thing is not even in the originals.

Almost certainly a forgery, either by someone trying to accuse Rome, or from a fanatic that actually believes that. Now and then, there are RCs who make outrageous claims that not even the Vatican would accept. I met an ex-RC priest who told me once that he had read a booklet where it was taught that since the Pope has a unique tie to Christ due to being His Vicar, the Pope himself is also, somehow present in the Eucharist, because it is the Body of Christ just like the Church is, and therefore the Church's head could not be missing from it.

The exaltation of the Papacy, although not really stating a divine condition for the bishop of Rome, does lend itself, on occasion to these blasphemies.
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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2014, 02:22:14 PM »

I an ex-RC priest told me once that he had read a booklet where it was taught that since the Pope has a unique tie to Christ due to being His Vicar, the Pope himself is also, somehow present in the Eucharist, because it is the Body of Christ just like the Church is, and therefore the Church's head could not be missing from it.

Transpopestantiation!
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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2014, 02:29:04 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?

It might be anti-Catholic website. and I think it is, but is the claim true ? They provide what supposed to be a letter written in Latin and it says that verse.

I don't know.  It could be.  If it is, it was an over zealous commentator, not a title actually claimed by the Bishop of Rome.
yet when we get overzealous comments from the East (say, like Theodoret of Cyrrhus' letter to Abp. St. Leo I of Old Rome), we are told to recognize it as proof positive of the Vatican's claims.
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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 02:34:24 PM »

http://klaravonassisi.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/the-truth-about-the-anti-catholic-charge-of-lord-god-the-pope/

It is a comment to canon law, not cannon law. And the "lord god the pope" thing is not even in the originals.

Almost certainly a forgery, either by someone trying to accuse Rome, or from a fanatic that actually believes that. Now and then, there are RCs who make outrageous claims that not even the Vatican would accept. I an ex-RC priest told me once that he had read a booklet where it was taught that since the Pope has a unique tie to Christ due to being His Vicar, the Pope himself is also, somehow present in the Eucharist, because it is the Body of Christ just like the Church is, and therefore the Church's head could not be missing from it.

The exaltation of the Papacy, although not really stating a divine condition for the bishop of Rome, does lend itself, on occasion to these blasphemes.

I'm reading it. Thank you very much.

I have to add something, what is up with the "anti-Catholic" thing that we use a lot these day ? Whenever someone says anything not good about Catholicism or disagree with the Catholic Church on some issues, is somehow anti-Catholic ( I used to say the same thing but now I find it ridicules and it is used too much ). Then we get upset when gays accuse us of being anti-gays because we don't support same-sex marriage!! Like one Bishop said, the Catholic Church is not anti-anybody and not anti-gay. But if we are to go by the logic Catholics use, the Catholic Church is anti-gay, anti-Orthodoxy, anti-Protestantism...etc. Why is it okay for us ( Catholics ) to always play the victim role and others are the evil,heartless and anti-Catholic bigots ?!

When someone says a claim against the Catholic

I think we should stop with the "anti-catholic" nonsense and just reply to the claims against us without being pathetic.
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2014, 02:42:52 PM »

I found an attempted Catholic defense against this and similar alleged quotes.

http://catholicpoint.blogspot.com/2012/10/pope-claiming-as-god.html

It seems the sources are almost hopelessly obscure. All the same, it does not reflect well on Rome to be mired in this credible of controversy.
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2014, 02:55:35 PM »

I found an attempted Catholic defense against this and similar alleged quotes.

http://catholicpoint.blogspot.com/2012/10/pope-claiming-as-god.html

It seems the sources are almost hopelessly obscure. All the same, it does not reflect well on Rome to be mired in this credible of controversy.

There is no smoke without a fire. So for such claims to be made about the Catholic Church and the Pope, means that there must have been times when some people really did believe somehow that the Pope is Christ on Earth.  Plus, there are two ways for people to confess their faith, one verbally and the other by actions. So, if you didn't confess something by the word of mouth, you may did by your actions.  In the past the way the Popes were treated is somehow confessing by actions that they are Christ Himself on Earth. and even today some people by their actions do give a sign of such belief about the Pope.  Yet, that doesn't mean it is the actual teaching of the Church. and I'm good as long as it is not in the Church teaching.  Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2014, 03:18:30 PM »

Now wait a minute, what about what St. Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians:

Quote
Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

So, not only the Pope but every bishop should be treated as Christ on Earth.
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2014, 03:27:11 PM »

Now wait a minute, what about what St. Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians:

Quote
Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

So, not only the Pope but every bishop should be treated as Christ on Earth.

Could you please explain what do you exactly mean by " should be treated as Christ on Earth " ?
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2014, 04:19:09 PM »

Now wait a minute, what about what St. Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians:

Quote
Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

So, not only the Pope but every bishop should be treated as Christ on Earth.

It's different than saying "Our Lord God the Pope".  St. Ignatius wrote elsewhere that the bishop's honor is akin to the Father, and the deacons to the Son.  But we do not worship the bishop or the deacons.

There's an Arabic proverb that says "al Ab Rab" (the Father [is] Lord).  It pretty much tells you how much obedience and honor you need to give to your own biological father.  Likewise this same Semitic value is manifest in the early centuries of the Church, but it's not taken literally to the point where a reincarnation occurs.  Otherwise, we would all be semi-Rastafarians.
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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2014, 05:29:29 PM »

It's a forgery or a scribal error. It only occurs in some copies, not in all.
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2014, 03:33:28 PM »

You guys are hilarious! Roll Eyes

As far as I know (just a mile or two down the road, anyway  Grin), we nefarious Catholics still recite the Nicene Creed, aka the profession of faith.  You know, the one that goes, "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible..."  Despite any claims to the contrary, this does NOT describe, nor has it ever described, nor will it ever describe any Pope.  

There are those who, unfortunately, engage in pope-olatry, but that's really just a sin against the 1st Commandment.

Who is Christ on earth?  Most likely your neighbor and your enemy and that homeless guy I didn't offer a decent meal to.  

Anyone, imho, who thinks or believes that the Pope is "Our Lord God" is a heretic.

Just my 2-cents worth. Smiley  (As I don my flame-retardant suit . Grin)

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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2014, 12:51:43 PM »

http://klaravonassisi.wordpress.com/2009/01/04/the-truth-about-the-anti-catholic-charge-of-lord-god-the-pope/

It is a comment to canon law, not cannon law. And the "lord god the pope" thing is not even in the originals.

Almost certainly a forgery, either by someone trying to accuse Rome, or from a fanatic that actually believes that. Now and then, there are RCs who make outrageous claims that not even the Vatican would accept. I an ex-RC priest told me once that he had read a booklet where it was taught that since the Pope has a unique tie to Christ due to being His Vicar, the Pope himself is also, somehow present in the Eucharist, because it is the Body of Christ just like the Church is, and therefore the Church's head could not be missing from it.

The exaltation of the Papacy, although not really stating a divine condition for the bishop of Rome, does lend itself, on occasion to these blasphemes.

I'm reading it. Thank you very much.

I have to add something, what is up with the "anti-Catholic" thing that we use a lot these day ? Whenever someone says anything not good about Catholicism or disagree with the Catholic Church on some issues, is somehow anti-Catholic ( I used to say the same thing but now I find it ridicules and it is used too much ). Then we get upset when gays accuse us of being anti-gays because we don't support same-sex marriage!! Like one Bishop said, the Catholic Church is not anti-anybody and not anti-gay. But if we are to go by the logic Catholics use, the Catholic Church is anti-gay, anti-Orthodoxy, anti-Protestantism...etc. Why is it okay for us ( Catholics ) to always play the victim role and others are the evil,heartless and anti-Catholic bigots ?!

When someone says a claim against the Catholic

I think we should stop with the "anti-catholic" nonsense and just reply to the claims against us without being pathetic.

I agree, to some extent with your points. However, when Catholics might be called "anti-Orthodox", in most cases it's a pro-proselytism / pro-uniatism kind of thing. (I'm not saying that makes Catholics better, just that calling it anti-Orthodox is a slight oversimplification.)
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2014, 01:02:43 PM »

Now wait a minute, what about what St. Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians:

Quote
Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself.

So, not only the Pope but every bishop should be treated as Christ on Earth.

That's not what the passage says. Just because it says we should venerate the Bishop as we venerate Christ, doesn't mean the Bishop is god. Protestants usually bring up the reverse argument against Saint veneration.
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« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2014, 03:43:18 AM »

It's a forgery or a scribal error. It only occurs in some copies, not in all.

I agree

It makes no sense otherwise

I just imagined immediately reading it, perhaps that monk did not get enough sleep that night!
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« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2014, 10:43:02 AM »

I'm not buying scribal error of the not-enough-coffee kind. They don't say there's wording that differs, they're pointing out that the whole sentence is gone in some manuscripts (and in modern editions). I would buy that the statement was controversial from the start and elided by those with sense. At any rate, such stuff is mostly irrelevant since Vatican II -- I mean, in any but a history-sheds-light-on-the-present way.
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« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2014, 10:56:27 AM »

I'm not buying scribal error of the not-enough-coffee kind.

Why then does this particular reading only occur in a few, and not all, copies?
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« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2014, 11:54:57 AM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?
the text


It claims that the verse  " Dnm Deu nrm Papa " is the one says " Our Lord God the Pope ".

Notice DeuGod in Latin translated into Deus. Hmm, Deu/Deus. Do both mean different things ?

Im sure the Pope from time to time was looked upon as "God on Earth" at some time in the RCC's history...After all he is considered the Vicar of Christ on Earth to many followers, why should this be a surprise to anyone?
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2014, 11:56:07 AM »

It's a forgery or a scribal error. It only occurs in some copies, not in all.

I agree

It makes no sense otherwise

I just imagined immediately reading it, perhaps that monk did not get enough sleep that night!

Even St. Peter wasn't considered a 'god'.
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2014, 12:07:17 PM »

It's a forgery or a scribal error. It only occurs in some copies, not in all.

I agree

It makes no sense otherwise

I just imagined immediately reading it, perhaps that monk did not get enough sleep that night!

Even St. Peter wasn't considered a 'god'.

SS. Paul and Barnabas were tho. Wink
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2014, 12:18:17 PM »

We're all gods as Christ said. We just act like complete idiots almost all the time. Tongue
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2014, 12:18:51 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?
the text


It claims that the verse  " Dnm Deu nrm Papa " is the one says " Our Lord God the Pope ".

Notice DeuGod in Latin translated into Deus. Hmm, Deu/Deus. Do both mean different things ?

Im sure the Pope from time to time was looked upon as "God on Earth" at some time in the RCC's history...After all he is considered the Vicar of Christ on Earth to many followers, why should this be a surprise to anyone?

It doesn't surprise me anymore. It is not the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but as far as I know, the Church doesn't say or do anything to prevent such belief from spreading.

Here is a very short video showing what I'm talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBo7xFMNZTo

Yeah, the Pope is like " God Himself almost, you know... ".

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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2014, 12:28:19 PM »

And we wonder why the religious feeling in the West eventually became that an individual can dogmatize or at least have effective opinion about dogma.
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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2014, 12:30:18 PM »

Why would bother with an anti-Catholic Protestant's website?  What do you expect to find there?
the text


It claims that the verse  " Dnm Deu nrm Papa " is the one says " Our Lord God the Pope ".

Notice DeuGod in Latin translated into Deus. Hmm, Deu/Deus. Do both mean different things ?

Im sure the Pope from time to time was looked upon as "God on Earth" at some time in the RCC's history...After all he is considered the Vicar of Christ on Earth to many followers, why should this be a surprise to anyone?

It doesn't surprise me anymore. It is not the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but as far as I know, the Church doesn't say or do anything to prevent such belief from spreading.

Here is a very short video showing what I'm talking about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBo7xFMNZTo

Yeah, the Pope is like " God Himself almost, you know... ".



I think we can forgive some people's simple piety. Sometimes, people have a personality cult and follow almost to the t every word that comes out of a patriarch or bishop's mouth.  It is why St. James said something about being wary of becoming teachers, because they will receive a stricter punishment.
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« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2014, 12:25:28 PM »

You guys are hilarious! Roll Eyes

As far as I know (just a mile or two down the road, anyway  Grin), we nefarious Catholics still recite the Nicene Creed, aka the profession of faith.  You know, the one that goes, "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible..."  Despite any claims to the contrary, this does NOT describe, nor has it ever described, nor will it ever describe any Pope.  

There are those who, unfortunately, engage in pope-olatry, but that's really just a sin against the 1st Commandment.

Who is Christ on earth?  Most likely your neighbor and your enemy and that homeless guy I didn't offer a decent meal to.  

Anyone, imho, who thinks or believes that the Pope is "Our Lord God" is a heretic.

Just my 2-cents worth. Smiley  (As I don my flame-retardant suit . Grin)

(emphasis added)

Well ... the flames don't seem to have materialized. I have to wonder, though, if it would have made you happy if they had.
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« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2014, 12:27:59 PM »

...the flames don't seem to have materialized.

Evidence for an incorporeal punishment/cleansing then?
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2014, 09:29:29 AM »

And we wonder why the religious feeling in the West eventually became that an individual can dogmatize or at least have effective opinion about dogma.


And the Orthodox individual is immune from such behavior?
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2014, 09:35:42 AM »

We're all gods as Christ said. We just act like complete idiots almost all the time. Tongue

Indeed. There are myriad solid Eastern Orthodox (and I assume OO as well) objections to the post schism formulations of the Roman papacy. We need not import hysterical exaggerations from Protestant sources to make our case. (The same holds true with respect to most human discourse,all that the extremist, exaggerated nonsense accomplishes is to solidify the other side or turn off many who might have had an open mind.)
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2014, 10:12:37 AM »

Learned Orthodox know we don't worship the Pope or think he IS the church. Both well-meaning conservative Vatican II Catholics and liberals fall for the latter, thanks in part to the modern media's focus on the person of the Pope. Conservatives fall back on it because without the traditional liturgy they have no other identity anymore; liberals don't believe in church infallibility so they think the Pope can order the changes they would like.

The argument against the papacy I respect is that of the old Anglican high churchmen, the Tractarians: patristic, very conservative, basically afraid that the Pope's authority, such as the development of doctrine (only an opinion, not our doctrine!), is Modernism's cousin. "He can change anything!" No, he can't.

I've said that I think a lot of the Orthodox convert boomlet 20 years ago would have been High Church Anglican 100 years ago: more accessible than Eastern Orthodoxy in the West at the time, no cultural barrier, etc.

The rebuttal to that principled position: the Episcopal Church, hardly more conservative than Rome. Rome teaches now what it did then, in full.
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2014, 10:20:59 AM »

Learned Orthodox know we don't worship the Pope or think he IS the church. Both well-meaning conservative Vatican II Catholics and liberals fall for the latter, thanks in part to the modern media's focus on the person of the Pope. Conservatives fall back on it because without the traditional liturgy they have no other identity anymore; liberals don't believe in church infallibility so they think the Pope can order the changes they would like.

The argument against the papacy I respect is that of the old Anglican high churchmen, the Tractarians: patristic, very conservative, basically afraid that the Pope's authority, such as the development of doctrine (only an opinion, not our doctrine!), is Modernism's cousin. "He can change anything!" No, he can't.

I've said that I think a lot of the Orthodox convert boomlet 20 years ago would have been High Church Anglican 100 years ago: more accessible than Eastern Orthodoxy in the West at the time, no cultural barrier, etc.

The rebuttal to that principled position: the Episcopal Church, hardly more conservative than Rome. Rome teaches now what it did then, in full.

That's why Purgatory was only mentioned by the Pope beginning in the early Middle Ages.
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« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2014, 10:23:04 AM »

That's why Purgatory was only mentioned by the Pope beginning in the early Middle Ages.

Development of doctrine, not new doctrine. Prayer for the dead logically presupposes an intermediate state; otherwise you get universalism including in the form of apocatastasis, which would violate free will.
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« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2014, 10:57:18 AM »

That's why Purgatory was only mentioned by the Pope beginning in the early Middle Ages.

Development of doctrine, not new doctrine. Prayer for the dead logically presupposes an intermediate state; otherwise you get universalism including in the form of apocatastasis, which would violate free will.

Sure. But conspicuous absence does seem to suggest novel doctrine. Just sayin'.

'Intermediate state' doesn't need to be a dogmatic construction with set parameters either.
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« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2014, 11:00:41 AM »

Sure. But conspicuous absence does seem to suggest novel doctrine. Just sayin'.

Contraception.

'Intermediate state' doesn't need to be a dogmatic construction with parameters.

It's on you to prove our definition's heretical.
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« Reply #57 on: July 01, 2014, 11:03:59 AM »

Sure. But conspicuous absence does seem to suggest novel doctrine. Just sayin'.

Contraception.


Not a doctrine.

'Intermediate state' doesn't need to be a dogmatic construction with parameters.

Quote
It's on you to prove our definition's heretical.
[/quote]

Nobody said it was heretical, just unnecessary. Which means it's novel. At least, Orthodox would say.
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« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2014, 04:14:32 AM »

'Intermediate state' doesn't need to be a dogmatic construction with parameters.

It's on you to prove our definition's heretical.

How convenient. Really, it is up to you to show how the belief that theology is a science is epistemologically justifiable. Even so, even if theology could be derived from clever syllogisms, in the absence of a divine revelation which definitively reveals purgatory, one would be stuck trying to explain the necessity of purgatory using natural theology.
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« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2014, 11:32:17 AM »

How convenient.

Since I am innocent of this crime, sir, I find it decidedly inconvenient that the gun was never found.
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« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2014, 11:44:18 AM »

Sure. But conspicuous absence does seem to suggest novel doctrine. Just sayin'.

Contraception.
Noonan pointed out the irony that HV embraces the one method of contraception that patristics (notably absent from the encyclical) can be cited condemning.

It's on you to prove our definition's heretical.
A heretical definition of a heretical ecclesiastical community? Sort of axiomatic.
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« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2014, 11:50:07 AM »

We're all gods as Christ said. We just act like complete idiots almost all the time. Tongue

Indeed. There are myriad solid Eastern Orthodox (and I assume OO as well) objections to the post schism formulations of the Roman papacy. We need not import hysterical exaggerations from Protestant sources to make our case. (The same holds true with respect to most human discourse,all that the extremist, exaggerated nonsense accomplishes is to solidify the other side or turn off many who might have had an open mind.)
Alas! such "open minds" don't make history. I'm afraid Rush is right: go to the library and find "Great Moderates in History" and you will find that no such tome exists.

Of course, many use a very broad definition of "hysterical exaggerations."  Particularly, as is the case here at bar, such hysterical exaggerations are allowed to flourish among the Vatican's followers.  Qui tacet consentit.
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« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2014, 07:33:20 PM »

You guys are hilarious! Roll Eyes

As far as I know (just a mile or two down the road, anyway  Grin), we nefarious Catholics still recite the Nicene Creed, aka the profession of faith.  You know, the one that goes, "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible..."  Despite any claims to the contrary, this does NOT describe, nor has it ever described, nor will it ever describe any Pope.  

There are those who, unfortunately, engage in pope-olatry, but that's really just a sin against the 1st Commandment.

Who is Christ on earth?  Most likely your neighbor and your enemy and that homeless guy I didn't offer a decent meal to.  

Anyone, imho, who thinks or believes that the Pope is "Our Lord God" is a heretic.

Just my 2-cents worth. Smiley  (As I don my flame-retardant suit . Grin)

(emphasis added)

Well ... the flames don't seem to have materialized. I have to wonder, though, if it would have made you happy if they had.

Nope, it wouldn't have.  Au contraire, I'm quite happy they did not. Smiley
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