OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 01, 2014, 06:42:22 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Giving Change to Panhandlers  (Read 897 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Laird
Not yet able to attend an Orthodox Church
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer (Catechumen soon hopefully)
Jurisdiction: Baptist
Posts: 239


Lord, have mercy on me


« on: June 13, 2014, 06:01:57 PM »

So yesterday this guy asked me for some money when I was going into the store and again when I came out. I said no both times. I think this was my first time that I've been asked for money and is why I kind of didn't know what to do, so I said no. I have never thought this out before. I feel bad about it. My mom always asks them if they would like some food. So what should I do when asked? Say no because they might use it for drugs/alcohol, say yes because it is not my place to judge, or does it depend?
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,556


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 06:06:39 PM »

Why did you feel bad?  Because you didn't know what to do, or because you didn't do? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,414



« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 06:15:13 PM »

This thread might have more thoughts for your perusal


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52620.0.html
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 08:51:30 PM »

So yesterday this guy asked me for some money when I was going into the store and again when I came out. I said no both times. I think this was my first time that I've been asked for money and is why I kind of didn't know what to do, so I said no. I have never thought this out before. I feel bad about it. My mom always asks them if they would like some food. So what should I do when asked? Say no because they might use it for drugs/alcohol, say yes because it is not my place to judge, or does it depend?

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The only thing this depends on, to me, is whether you have spare money.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
kelly
God save Ukraine and Russia
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: mysterious iniquitousness
Posts: 1,052


Sts. Boris and Gleb


« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 09:04:33 PM »

I just always err on the side of caution and give them whatever extra I can spare - if they spend it on alchohol, drugs, nudie mag, whatever... if they spend it on food, great! You can just never assume. A friend of mine always offers to buy them McDonald's or something and most accept.
Logged

Remove the plank of lust from your own eye and you will be able to clearly see the speck of backflesh through the buttonhole of another.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 09:09:34 PM »

I just always err on the side of caution and give them whatever extra I can spare - if they spend it on alchohol, drugs, nudie mag, whatever... if they spend it on food, great! You can just never assume. A friend of mine always offers to buy them McDonald's or something and most accept.

Most will certainly accept.  But there's definitely a benefit to giving cash: often times, homeless people will save some money, so that they can go stay in a hotel once a week or so, in order to get quality sleep, clean up, and not worry about having their stuff stolen.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,383



« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2014, 12:34:47 AM »

I don't usually have much on me, or even anything (now that so much is electronic/internet), but I do try to give as I can. As for perhaps using my spare change for drugs and alcohol... for all I know those are the things keeping them alive. Until society in general is willing to work on this together and take it seriously, we'll individually have to continue putting our fingers in the cracks in the dam.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:35:04 AM by Justin Kissel » Logged

"Change is the process of becoming more like who we are."
Georgii
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 82


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2014, 04:21:41 AM »

If anyone tells us it is wrong to help the poor, we can say what soldiers even in bad causes have said: we are just following orders.

A rather crusty old Hieroschemamonk who runs an urban mission told our congregation that money is like manure; it doesn't do any good unless you spread it around.

And charity does often seem to work better if you don't think about it too much, whether giving or receiving. Today I was walking down the sidewalk and heard a voice from a doorway saying come in here - free clothes! Really? Yes! Some local Evangelicals were holding a clothing exchange, and they were apparently not getting as many takers as they would like. Maybe kind of like that wedding banquet in Matthew 22.

I had wanted to buy some clothes, and had more than enough money to do so, but I picked out three free shirts, said thank you and left. The rest of the day I gave a dollar to every beggar in sight, including some I ran up to from a distance. No thanks to me - if I hadn't been given to in that way I wouldn't have given away even that little.

edit: my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 04:35:53 AM by Georgii » Logged

my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,699



WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2014, 06:43:36 AM »


Always give....especially if asked.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,844



« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2014, 03:50:45 PM »

You are not giving money to the person who asked for it.  You are giving to Christ.  "Whatsoever you do to the least of these, my brethren, you have done also to me."

If I don't have money, I tell them I don't, but will follow up with asking what I can do for them. Usually, they just go on to the next passerby.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,133


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2014, 11:57:42 PM »


Always give....especially if asked.

Thank you, finally somebody says scriptures.
Matthew 5:42
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 12:10:07 AM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and bus boards asking people to donate to the local shelters and missions rather than panhandlers.  They are often addicts and sometimes just scammers.  As mentioned above the best way to weed them out is to offer to buy them lunch.  If you have local, shelter, mission, or soup kitchen I would give to them rather than panhandlers.  
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 12:10:56 AM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Hawkeye
Onomatodoxicologist
High Elder
******
Online Online

Faith: With a schismatic twist.
Jurisdiction: An Old Rite soglasie
Posts: 564


Same message, different take.


« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2014, 03:38:55 AM »

I recall once walking out of a store with a handful of change and encountering a man on the street. He was unkempt and his speech was heavily slurred. When he asked me for some change, the request didn't quite register and I was momentarily frightened, for whatever reason. So, I fled without having given him anything. It was a short while later that I realized what he had wanted and I soon regretted my lack of charity, though I did nothing to fix it.

Several years later, I learned that this man had died. I don't know what sort of reputation he may have had but it seems that he was fairly known around town. I can't help but think about him whenever this topic comes up.
Logged

When I die, I figure the worst I'll get is what I deserve. Any injustice on the part of God will certainly be because He is all too merciful.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Annie Och
Posts: 4,107



« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 03:56:27 AM »

I only gave to someone once, even though I later felt I should've given more (no humblebrag). I don't know if he was just hustling me or what, but I didn't mind at the time. He was showing me his social security card and everything, which was a bit odd.

Another time I was with a friend at a gas station where a few panhandlers would regularly loiter at. The one was an older guy that could always be seen drinking out of a bottle in a brown paper bag. My friend went in and spent his last few dollars on him to buy Marlboros. The guy asked him for money, my friend said he didn't have any, and the guy made a rude retort about him "still able to buy Marlboros" and stomped off. After that, along with generally seeing him spend the money on alcohol that he'd drink in the parking lot, I wouldn't hesitate to shut him down if he'd asked me again, whether that'd be wrong of me or not.

Another time a woman supposedly needed gas money to get her and her child home a few miles' drive away. I offered her the change I had but she turned me down. Apparently she only wanted dem dolla bills.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 03:58:38 AM by Nephi » Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2014, 05:49:31 AM »

I gave cigarettes to a seemingly homeless guy eating some biscuits behind a KFC/Taco Bell.  He was genuinely happy.
Logged

Cyrus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 39


« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 06:55:06 AM »

The title of this thread should read: "Giving Change to Jesus Christ"

Just realize, that each time we are approached by a "druggy", "drunk" or other suspicious looking person, we are actually being approached by Christ Himself.  Keep in mind that "as much as you did it to the least of these my brethren, you did it unto me"...

Do not look to entrap people to try and catch them being bad or something, because after all, who are we to judge others when we ourselves cannot even see our sins since we are so entrenched in them.  Rather turn and see that those whom we so easily judged as being the scum of the earth, are actually Christ Himself, so give, give as hilarious givers and don't look back, but continue on the path of the Light.
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,000


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 07:08:43 AM »

You should give. Otherwise, Jésus may stab you.
Logged

genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,461



« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 10:22:57 AM »

A few weeks ago when I was in the grocery store a man came up to me and asked for a quarter to help him buy the meagre quantity of food he had in his hand. I handed him a loonie. He stopped and said, "All I asked for was a quarter." I responded, "Then if you don't need it, just pass it on to someone who does." The man then smiled and said, "You're a Christian, right?"
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,699



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 10:24:28 AM »

A few weeks ago when I was in the grocery store a man came up to me and asked for a quarter to help him buy the meagre quantity of food he had in his hand. I handed him a loonie. He stopped and said, "All I asked for was a quarter." I responded, "Then if you don't need it, just pass it on to someone who does." The man then smiled and said, "You're a Christian, right?"

That's beautiful.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 8,770



« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 10:29:59 AM »

Say no because they might use it for drugs/alcohol, say yes because it is not my place to judge, or does it depend?

So what if they want to get themselves a beer? Nobody needs it more than they do.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 10:35:49 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a OC.net diet.

"Chi son?  Sono un poeta. Che cosa faccio? Scrivo. E come vivo?  Vivo."
-Giacomo Puccini
Georgii
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 82


« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 11:04:41 AM »

I handed him a loonie.

We are all in need of healing, but many beggars are medically diagnosed as "loonie".
I've always thought that money was a loonie idea. I mean, what is it, really?
So render unto the loonie that which is loonie.

Besides, you can stick it to Ayn Rand ("altruism =  holy things to the unholy").

I'm oversimplifying, but a lot of our thinking about money really is loonie sick.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:23:59 AM by Georgii » Logged

my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 02:35:34 PM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and bus boards asking people to donate to the local shelters and missions rather than panhandlers.  They are often addicts and sometimes just scammers.  As mentioned above the best way to weed them out is to offer to buy them lunch.  If you have local, shelter, mission, or soup kitchen I would give to them rather than panhandlers.  

The problem with shelters and soup kitchens is that, a lot of times, they have very strict rules that must be abided by, or people get kicked out.  For example, I know of a shelter for young adults, in Arizona, that banned a 20 year old woman from both of their campuses, because she attempted suicide on one of them.  The shelter in question is one of the only shelters in Tempe, and she's now banned because she had a mental health problem.  I can think of other cases where people have been involved in a fight (note, I did NOT say they started one), and been banned from different agencies, either permanently or for a few months, because they have zero tolerance policies. 

Also, some agencies drug test people who receive housing or other services and goods from them.  Many of you may support this, and I can understand that, but when you've been addicted to a drug for five years, and can't afford rehab, do you really think it's easy for someone to suddenly quit, and never slip-up again?  Even drug addicts deserve food and shelter.

I can certainly appreciate and understand these policies.  Agencies often rely on a lot of grant funding, and increasingly grants require 'proof' of 'efficacy.'  The way they measure whether or not, for instance, a temporary housing program is successful, is usually by determining the number of people that can get permanent housing, as a result of the temporary housing.  When you have to keep, say, 85% of people moving into permanent housing, you can't afford to deal with people who might have a serious mental illness, or might have a drug problem, because you can't risk the grant funding.

But, the people out on the streets, many of them may not have a lot of options.  And you certainly aren't helping them by refusing to give them money.  They might spend the money on crack, sure.  But if you don't give them money, they aren't more likely to break their habit.  If no one gives them money, they'll still figure out ways to get a fix, perhaps resorting to dangerous ways of prostituting themselves, or theft.  And you'll have refused to give to plenty of people who aren't drug addicts, who would use the money for things you approve of.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2014, 02:37:26 PM »

I only gave to someone once, even though I later felt I should've given more (no humblebrag). I don't know if he was just hustling me or what, but I didn't mind at the time. He was showing me his social security card and everything, which was a bit odd.

Another time I was with a friend at a gas station where a few panhandlers would regularly loiter at. The one was an older guy that could always be seen drinking out of a bottle in a brown paper bag. My friend went in and spent his last few dollars on him to buy Marlboros. The guy asked him for money, my friend said he didn't have any, and the guy made a rude retort about him "still able to buy Marlboros" and stomped off. After that, along with generally seeing him spend the money on alcohol that he'd drink in the parking lot, I wouldn't hesitate to shut him down if he'd asked me again, whether that'd be wrong of me or not.

Another time a woman supposedly needed gas money to get her and her child home a few miles' drive away. I offered her the change I had but she turned me down. Apparently she only wanted dem dolla bills.

What exactly is your point?  That you're incapable giving with a charitable heart?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Annie Och
Posts: 4,107



« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2014, 02:38:42 PM »

What exactly is your point?  That you're incapable giving with a charitable heart?

You nailed it. Wink
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 02:38:57 PM by Nephi » Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Georgii
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 82


« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2014, 03:48:36 PM »

You nailed it. Wink

And we nail Him Cry
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 03:48:54 PM by Georgii » Logged

my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,499



« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2014, 04:20:26 PM »



At least he's honest with his intentions.  It's the bloody charities that drive me up the wall.  Most of the money is going to pay some paperpusher who makes more than me for doing the same amount of work.  Screw that.  An honest bum looking to wash his misery away with a bottle of Night Train?  Who knows, some day it might be me on the street missing teeth, reeking of poo, looking for a smoke to warm my frostbitten fingers.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,878


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2014, 05:37:56 PM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and bus boards asking people to donate to the local shelters and missions rather than panhandlers.  They are often addicts and sometimes just scammers.  As mentioned above the best way to weed them out is to offer to buy them lunch.  If you have local, shelter, mission, or soup kitchen I would give to them rather than panhandlers.  

The problem with shelters and soup kitchens is that, a lot of times, they have very strict rules that must be abided by, or people get kicked out.  For example, I know of a shelter for young adults, in Arizona, that banned a 20 year old woman from both of their campuses, because she attempted suicide on one of them.  The shelter in question is one of the only shelters in Tempe, and she's now banned because she had a mental health problem.  I can think of other cases where people have been involved in a fight (note, I did NOT say they started one), and been banned from different agencies, either permanently or for a few months, because they have zero tolerance policies. 

Also, some agencies drug test people who receive housing or other services and goods from them.  Many of you may support this, and I can understand that, but when you've been addicted to a drug for five years, and can't afford rehab, do you really think it's easy for someone to suddenly quit, and never slip-up again?  Even drug addicts deserve food and shelter.

I can certainly appreciate and understand these policies.  Agencies often rely on a lot of grant funding, and increasingly grants require 'proof' of 'efficacy.'  The way they measure whether or not, for instance, a temporary housing program is successful, is usually by determining the number of people that can get permanent housing, as a result of the temporary housing.  When you have to keep, say, 85% of people moving into permanent housing, you can't afford to deal with people who might have a serious mental illness, or might have a drug problem, because you can't risk the grant funding.

But, the people out on the streets, many of them may not have a lot of options.  And you certainly aren't helping them by refusing to give them money.  They might spend the money on crack, sure.  But if you don't give them money, they aren't more likely to break their habit.  If no one gives them money, they'll still figure out ways to get a fix, perhaps resorting to dangerous ways of prostituting themselves, or theft.  And you'll have refused to give to plenty of people who aren't drug addicts, who would use the money for things you approve of.
I am a welfare caseworker and my wife is the manager of a women's domestic violence shelter, so I am well aware of the policies and the pitfalls of going one way or the other.  Having worked in this area for years now I favor giving to the shelters. 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2014, 10:07:20 PM »

In Pittsburgh they actually put up billboards and bus boards asking people to donate to the local shelters and missions rather than panhandlers.  They are often addicts and sometimes just scammers.  As mentioned above the best way to weed them out is to offer to buy them lunch.  If you have local, shelter, mission, or soup kitchen I would give to them rather than panhandlers.  

The problem with shelters and soup kitchens is that, a lot of times, they have very strict rules that must be abided by, or people get kicked out.  For example, I know of a shelter for young adults, in Arizona, that banned a 20 year old woman from both of their campuses, because she attempted suicide on one of them.  The shelter in question is one of the only shelters in Tempe, and she's now banned because she had a mental health problem.  I can think of other cases where people have been involved in a fight (note, I did NOT say they started one), and been banned from different agencies, either permanently or for a few months, because they have zero tolerance policies. 

Also, some agencies drug test people who receive housing or other services and goods from them.  Many of you may support this, and I can understand that, but when you've been addicted to a drug for five years, and can't afford rehab, do you really think it's easy for someone to suddenly quit, and never slip-up again?  Even drug addicts deserve food and shelter.

I can certainly appreciate and understand these policies.  Agencies often rely on a lot of grant funding, and increasingly grants require 'proof' of 'efficacy.'  The way they measure whether or not, for instance, a temporary housing program is successful, is usually by determining the number of people that can get permanent housing, as a result of the temporary housing.  When you have to keep, say, 85% of people moving into permanent housing, you can't afford to deal with people who might have a serious mental illness, or might have a drug problem, because you can't risk the grant funding.

But, the people out on the streets, many of them may not have a lot of options.  And you certainly aren't helping them by refusing to give them money.  They might spend the money on crack, sure.  But if you don't give them money, they aren't more likely to break their habit.  If no one gives them money, they'll still figure out ways to get a fix, perhaps resorting to dangerous ways of prostituting themselves, or theft.  And you'll have refused to give to plenty of people who aren't drug addicts, who would use the money for things you approve of.
I am a welfare caseworker and my wife is the manager of a women's domestic violence shelter, so I am well aware of the policies and the pitfalls of going one way or the other.  Having worked in this area for years now I favor giving to the shelters. 

Well, I suppose we have a difference of opinion then.  I think part of this is because I've put in a lot of time volunteering with StandUp for Kids (which serves homeless and at-risk youth ages 24 and under); it's an all-volunteer run organization that (at least here in Phoenix) doesn't have a great deal of money (it relies mostly on in-kind donations, and the cash it receives generally goes toward rent on the drop-in center).  Most of the population served have significant personal issues, mostly either substance abuse or mental health (or in many cases, both), and a significant number of those served have had more than a few run-ins with police.

Since StandUp has little money, we also tend to be most frequented by those youth who have been kicked out of, or otherwise denied services by, shelters and similar organizations.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Laird
Not yet able to attend an Orthodox Church
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquirer (Catechumen soon hopefully)
Jurisdiction: Baptist
Posts: 239


Lord, have mercy on me


« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2014, 07:39:18 PM »

Why did you feel bad?  Because you didn't know what to do, or because you didn't do?  

I guess I didn't feel bad but I was embarrassed, and I probably left a bad impression. For the second question, I feel bad because I had the change, didn't need it, didn't even know him, and yet I still said no.

This thread might have more thoughts for your perusal


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52620.0.html

Thanks!

So yesterday this guy asked me for some money when I was going into the store and again when I came out. I said no both times. I think this was my first time that I've been asked for money and is why I kind of didn't know what to do, so I said no. I have never thought this out before. I feel bad about it. My mom always asks them if they would like some food. So what should I do when asked? Say no because they might use it for drugs/alcohol, say yes because it is not my place to judge, or does it depend?

"The one who imitates God by giving alms knows no difference between evil and good or just and unjust in regard to the needs of the body, but distributes to all without distinction according to their need even if he prefers the virtuous person over the wicked because of the good intention." - St. Maximos the Confessor, Four Hundred Chapters On Love, 1, 24

The only thing this depends on, to me, is whether you have spare money.

What a great quote. I never thought about it like that before.

A rather crusty old Hieroschemamonk who runs an urban mission told our congregation that money is like manure; it doesn't do any good unless you spread it around.

So true. It's not like I needed that dollar or two of change anyway. It might as well go to someone who actually needs it, regardless of what he does with it.

Quote
And charity does often seem to work better if you don't think about it too much, whether giving or receiving. Today I was walking down the sidewalk and heard a voice from a doorway saying come in here - free clothes! Really? Yes! Some local Evangelicals were holding a clothing exchange, and they were apparently not getting as many takers as they would like. Maybe kind of like that wedding banquet in Matthew 22.

I had wanted to buy some clothes, and had more than enough money to do so, but I picked out three free shirts, said thank you and left. The rest of the day I gave a dollar to every beggar in sight, including some I ran up to from a distance. No thanks to me - if I hadn't been given to in that way I wouldn't have given away even that little.

edit: my garment accuses me, for it is not a wedding garment

Nice story.  Smiley My family has been blessed/helped out with so many things that I should be willing to give generously, especially to those who need it most.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 07:45:34 PM by Laird » Logged
TheMathematician
Banished and Disgraced
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 1,396


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2014, 10:56:27 PM »

Reading through old posts, this might or not might be of help, assuming that you can decipher it.
We all rememeber the rich become beggar men from the story of Lazarus. If a kind soul will give a glass of water or a piece of bread, a prayer for soul salvation or even some money to his neighbour in the name of former rich now beggar man and of his brothers, the man will recive it and he will thirst no more and hunger no more. Hi prayer was listed to because he prayed for his brothers too.

The so called bum may be a prince in after life and God sends through grandma the interest you accrued by depositing in his bank. And the prince may be a beggar in after life.

When you go in a trip you make sure you have enough money depositeed in bank where you can make withdrawals as needed.

All of us will go in a trip in afterlife. The only Bank authorized to do money operations in afterlife is the Bank of God that takes automatically what you give to your neighbour . So if the prince does not make deposits in this bank he may become a beggar. And the beggar may become a prince if he makes deposits in this bank.

Behold, this is the future billionaire+:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7dE3xozfRc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKe9CPjNf9c&feature=related

Right now there are in hell people not able to drink even a glass of water. A glass of water there is like gold here. Give some from your bellong to all people in after life , in their name, and ask God to multiply them so that everybody in after life receives what you sent.

Did the closest of yourself in this trip have everything they need?


Respond to this question, not for me however for yourself. Do you have what you need in the bank of God so that in the afterlife trip to have everythiong you need? food? If no, give food to your neighbour so they are deposited automatically to the bank of God. Clothes? If no give clothes to the neighbour so that they are deposited automatically in the bank of God? Money? if not give money to your neighbour so that they are deposited in the bank of God. Housing? If no give housing or house to your neighbour so that you have housing in adfter life.

In Orthodoxy we have from ancient times parastas that is in English ..... I don't remember the term anyhow all the food that is sent to neighbour there goes automatically to deceased people for which panakia is done.

Sometimes you give a bum $5 and your grandma sends you a check for $500 out of the blue, because she knows you are low on cash. 
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2014, 01:51:36 AM »

Is JameRottnek the last Christian around here? Been reading around the board. A lot of great stuff James. You sound like you are really doing well as you do good.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2014, 01:51:57 AM »

Reading through old posts, this might or not might be of help, assuming that you can decipher it.
We all rememeber the rich become beggar men from the story of Lazarus. If a kind soul will give a glass of water or a piece of bread, a prayer for soul salvation or even some money to his neighbour in the name of former rich now beggar man and of his brothers, the man will recive it and he will thirst no more and hunger no more. Hi prayer was listed to because he prayed for his brothers too.

The so called bum may be a prince in after life and God sends through grandma the interest you accrued by depositing in his bank. And the prince may be a beggar in after life.

When you go in a trip you make sure you have enough money depositeed in bank where you can make withdrawals as needed.

All of us will go in a trip in afterlife. The only Bank authorized to do money operations in afterlife is the Bank of God that takes automatically what you give to your neighbour . So if the prince does not make deposits in this bank he may become a beggar. And the beggar may become a prince if he makes deposits in this bank.

Behold, this is the future billionaire+:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7dE3xozfRc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKe9CPjNf9c&feature=related

Right now there are in hell people not able to drink even a glass of water. A glass of water there is like gold here. Give some from your bellong to all people in after life , in their name, and ask God to multiply them so that everybody in after life receives what you sent.

Did the closest of yourself in this trip have everything they need?


Respond to this question, not for me however for yourself. Do you have what you need in the bank of God so that in the afterlife trip to have everythiong you need? food? If no, give food to your neighbour so they are deposited automatically to the bank of God. Clothes? If no give clothes to the neighbour so that they are deposited automatically in the bank of God? Money? if not give money to your neighbour so that they are deposited in the bank of God. Housing? If no give housing or house to your neighbour so that you have housing in adfter life.

In Orthodoxy we have from ancient times parastas that is in English ..... I don't remember the term anyhow all the food that is sent to neighbour there goes automatically to deceased people for which panakia is done.

Sometimes you give a bum $5 and your grandma sends you a check for $500 out of the blue, because she knows you are low on cash. 

God Bless You!
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2014, 04:13:27 AM »

Is JameRottnek the last Christian around here? Been reading around the board. A lot of great stuff James. You sound like you are really doing well as you do good.

Someone's reading my posts?  And they aren't just saying "SPONG, SPONG, SPONG!!!!"?  I'm surprised.

Thanks.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2014, 12:14:45 AM »

Is JameRottnek the last Christian around here? Been reading around the board. A lot of great stuff James. You sound like you are really doing well as you do good.

Someone's reading my posts?  And they aren't just saying "SPONG, SPONG, SPONG!!!!"?  I'm surprised.

Thanks.
StandUp for Kids you say?
Quote
StandUp for Kids founder, 69, arrested on child sex assault charges
Richard Koca Sr faces seven felony counts of sexual assault on a child
Charges so far relate to a single victim
Concerns there may be many more victims as Koca's extensive contact with juveniles goes back decades
Koca retired as charity's CEO in 2010, but continued to serve on board of directors until his arrest
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205366/StandUp-Kids-founder-69-arrested-child-sex-assault-charges.html#ixzz36kfwMmRC
Quote
Overall   52.01   3 stars
  Financial   47.07   2 stars
  Accountability & Transparency   59.00   3 stars
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10433#.U7obwJRdWSo
Quote
Richard Koca, co-founder of StandUp for Children, convicted on 22 counts of sex assault
Richard Koca traveled the world as a military officer and do-gooder who co-founded StandUp for Kids, a non-profit homeless-youth charity. But what, exactly, did he do?
Last Friday, 71-year-old Koca was convicted on 22 counts of sexual assault on a child by a person in a position of trust. The trial was in Arapahoe County; Koca was arrested last September 15 on allegations that he'd repeatedly assaulted a boy under his supervision in Aurora, and that victim made a convincing witness at trial.
StandUp For Kids, founded in 1990, sends outreach counselors into the street in an effort to assist homeless youth. Koca was on the board of the organization until two days after his arrest last September; at the time, the Atlanta-based StandUp for Kids had branches in 37 cities. Here's the story on the group's founding that was on the StandUp for Kids website last fall:

Quote
Mr. Koca is a retired naval officer. Rick joined the Navy at the age of 17, and during the next 30 years was promoted 13 times through 17 pay grades. A highly decorated naval officer, Rick was awarded the Defense Meritorious Service Medal, two Joint Service Commendation Medals, two Navy Commendation Medals, three Navy Achievement Medals, as well as numerous service awards and commendations.
In 1990, with the help of several friends, STANDUP FOR KIDS outreach counselors began walking the streets touching base with the street kids. Now, more than twelve years later, STANDUP FOR KIDS has grown to more than twenty-eight programs in thirteen states.

Now, after more than thirteen years of walking the streets, he can't think of a place that he would rather be. There have been many times when he just wanted to turn his back on it all. He thought it would help relieve the pain he was seeing in the kids on the streets. The pain of his first street kid who said he was HIV positive, the first 12-year-old living in a dumpster, his first youth heroin addict, a 13-year-old prostitute, the first baby living in a cave, and his first 17-year-old who died as a result of AIDS.

Rick said, "this isn't about money, it's about caring!" "What we've accomplished has no price tag. We know we've made the difference in the lives of thousands of kids, I would have paid that price for one"!

Now, this nationally acclaimed program has been recognized on three separate occasions by the White House, the U.S. Justice Department, American Express, the Governor's Office in Arizona twice, the Secretary of State of Colorado, and awarded the prestigious JCPenney Golden Rule Award. Rick has been awarded the George Washington Honor Award for his work with homeless and street kids; the Channel 10 Leadership Award, and was recognized as a finalist for the Edward A. Smith Award for Excellence in Nonprofit Leadership. Rick lives in San Diego and has 3 children and 7 grandchildren in Denver, Colorado.
Today you won't find any reference to Koca on the StandUp for Kids website, but you'll find plenty about Koca on the web.
http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2013/07/richard_koca.php

Btw, working 5 years in a CD clinic I never saw one helped by giving them money they used for drugs-that includes the governent: Check day was always a disaster.

I just don't understand you looking your nose down on the Deacon (and Lord knows he and I have had our disagreements).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 12:18:58 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,019


WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2014, 12:26:56 AM »

Surely, StandUp for Kids must have helped at least one kid without sexually molesting him/her....

(I'm using the discussion Abraham had with God about not destroying Sodom if there was one righteous person left in the city)
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2014, 01:48:19 AM »

Isa, you do understand that the StandUp for Kids branches are essentially independent of one another, yes?  Also, most of the branches don't receive many financial contributions; virtually all of the Phoenix chapters donations are in-kind.  What little cash it receives goes to rent on the drop-in center.

Also, don't you belong to the same church as the priest in this article: http://nftu.net/california-antiochian-priest-arrested-on-molestation-charges/

If we're going to start playing the "who belongs to organizations with the most sexual criminals" game, I'm pretty sure you'd lose.

And where did I "look down my nose" at the Deacon?  I also find it pretty funny that you of all people would make that charge...especially given the content of the rest of your post.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 01:49:44 AM by JamesRottnek » Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2014, 09:04:06 AM »

Isa, you do understand that the StandUp for Kids branches are essentially independent of one another, yes?  Also, most of the branches don't receive many financial contributions; virtually all of the Phoenix chapters donations are in-kind.  What little cash it receives goes to rent on the drop-in center.

Also, don't you belong to the same church as the priest in this article: http://nftu.net/california-antiochian-priest-arrested-on-molestation-charges/

If we're going to start playing the "who belongs to organizations with the most sexual criminals" game, I'm pretty sure you'd lose.
Like so much you are so sure of, you're wrong yet again.  But we don't even have to get there yet, as you criticized organized charity, and then tried to substantiate your criticism with your involvement in an organized charity.

Thanks for the demonstration that repeating what you just said neither aids in comprehension, nor convinces.  Especially when it bears no relevance to the issue brought up between repetitions.
And where did I "look down my nose" at the Deacon?  I also find it pretty funny that you of all people would make that charge...especially given the content of the rest of your post.
so you don't take your own coin.  Not surprised.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2014, 12:27:32 PM »

Isa, you do understand that the StandUp for Kids branches are essentially independent of one another, yes?  Also, most of the branches don't receive many financial contributions; virtually all of the Phoenix chapters donations are in-kind.  What little cash it receives goes to rent on the drop-in center.

Also, don't you belong to the same church as the priest in this article: http://nftu.net/california-antiochian-priest-arrested-on-molestation-charges/

If we're going to start playing the "who belongs to organizations with the most sexual criminals" game, I'm pretty sure you'd lose.
Like so much you are so sure of, you're wrong yet again.  But we don't even have to get there yet, as you criticized organized charity, and then tried to substantiate your criticism with your involvement in an organized charity.

Thanks for the demonstration that repeating what you just said neither aids in comprehension, nor convinces.  Especially when it bears no relevance to the issue brought up between repetitions.
And where did I "look down my nose" at the Deacon?  I also find it pretty funny that you of all people would make that charge...especially given the content of the rest of your post.
so you don't take your own coin.  Not surprised.

Between the two of you, you think it would be James who wouldn't stop when behind . . .
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,194



« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2014, 02:41:24 PM »

Isa, you do understand that the StandUp for Kids branches are essentially independent of one another, yes?  Also, most of the branches don't receive many financial contributions; virtually all of the Phoenix chapters donations are in-kind.  What little cash it receives goes to rent on the drop-in center.

Also, don't you belong to the same church as the priest in this article: http://nftu.net/california-antiochian-priest-arrested-on-molestation-charges/

If we're going to start playing the "who belongs to organizations with the most sexual criminals" game, I'm pretty sure you'd lose.
Like so much you are so sure of, you're wrong yet again.  But we don't even have to get there yet, as you criticized organized charity, and then tried to substantiate your criticism with your involvement in an organized charity.

Thanks for the demonstration that repeating what you just said neither aids in comprehension, nor convinces.  Especially when it bears no relevance to the issue brought up between repetitions.
And where did I "look down my nose" at the Deacon?  I also find it pretty funny that you of all people would make that charge...especially given the content of the rest of your post.
so you don't take your own coin.  Not surprised.

Between the two of you, you think it would be James who wouldn't stop when behind . . .
SPONG!!!
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2014, 05:02:14 PM »

Isa, you do understand that the StandUp for Kids branches are essentially independent of one another, yes?  Also, most of the branches don't receive many financial contributions; virtually all of the Phoenix chapters donations are in-kind.  What little cash it receives goes to rent on the drop-in center.

Also, don't you belong to the same church as the priest in this article: http://nftu.net/california-antiochian-priest-arrested-on-molestation-charges/

If we're going to start playing the "who belongs to organizations with the most sexual criminals" game, I'm pretty sure you'd lose.
Like so much you are so sure of, you're wrong yet again.  But we don't even have to get there yet, as you criticized organized charity, and then tried to substantiate your criticism with your involvement in an organized charity.

Thanks for the demonstration that repeating what you just said neither aids in comprehension, nor convinces.  Especially when it bears no relevance to the issue brought up between repetitions.
And where did I "look down my nose" at the Deacon?  I also find it pretty funny that you of all people would make that charge...especially given the content of the rest of your post.
so you don't take your own coin.  Not surprised.

I made a criticism of some organized charities.  Nowhere did I criticize all organized charities, nor did I criticize the notion of organized charities.  You'd think someone with a degree from the University of Chicago would have learned better reading comprehension skills. 

But then again, I've heard it said that "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach for low wages in a unionized district while railing against unions."
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2014, 06:04:46 PM »

Isa, you do understand that the StandUp for Kids branches are essentially independent of one another, yes?  Also, most of the branches don't receive many financial contributions; virtually all of the Phoenix chapters donations are in-kind.  What little cash it receives goes to rent on the drop-in center.

Also, don't you belong to the same church as the priest in this article: http://nftu.net/california-antiochian-priest-arrested-on-molestation-charges/

If we're going to start playing the "who belongs to organizations with the most sexual criminals" game, I'm pretty sure you'd lose.
Like so much you are so sure of, you're wrong yet again.  But we don't even have to get there yet, as you criticized organized charity, and then tried to substantiate your criticism with your involvement in an organized charity.

Thanks for the demonstration that repeating what you just said neither aids in comprehension, nor convinces.  Especially when it bears no relevance to the issue brought up between repetitions.
And where did I "look down my nose" at the Deacon?  I also find it pretty funny that you of all people would make that charge...especially given the content of the rest of your post.
so you don't take your own coin.  Not surprised.

I made a criticism of some organized charities.  Nowhere did I criticize all organized charities, nor did I criticize the notion of organized charities.  You'd think someone with a degree from the University of Chicago would have learned better reading comprehension skills.
we do

But then again, I've heard it said that "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach for low wages in a unionized district while railing against unions."
is that what the voices tell you?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
spyridon
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Constantinople
Posts: 80



« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2014, 08:25:33 PM »

I find these attacks on each other nauseating. School yard politics and pomposity.
Refrain gentlemen. Employ some humility.
Logged
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,095


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2014, 01:01:17 AM »




Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.168 seconds with 70 queries.