Author Topic: Domestic violence and divorce in America  (Read 1725 times)

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Offline ialmisry

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Domestic violence and divorce in America
« on: June 12, 2014, 10:17:00 AM »
It is irresponsible and cruel to forbid a woman to seek safety when she is subjected to violence in her own home.
but ok to forbid it to a man or children.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 10:19:20 AM »
If a Christian is acting like an infidel Muslim by punching the lights out of his wife, then she should be able to divorce him for the safety of her own life and that of her children. Some men cannot control their anger or just do not care, or perhaps they are sleep deprived. Whatever.
leave "her children" out of it, as the incidence of domestic violence by men not their biological father in the house, doesn't support the coupling.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 10:47:49 AM »
It is irresponsible and cruel to forbid a woman to seek safety when she is subjected to violence in her own home.
but ok to forbid it to a man or children.
Huh?  How did you get that out of what I said?  ???
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 01:05:12 PM »
It is irresponsible and cruel to forbid a woman to seek safety when she is subjected to violence in her own home.
but ok to forbid it to a man or children.
Huh?  How did you get that out of what I said?  ???
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2014, 01:07:45 PM »
If a Christian is acting like an infidel Muslim by punching the lights out of his wife, then she should be able to divorce him for the safety of her own life and that of her children. Some men cannot control their anger or just do not care, or perhaps they are sleep deprived. Whatever.
leave "her children" out of it, as the incidence of domestic violence by men not their biological father in the house, doesn't support the coupling.

I do not think Maria meant to imply the children were not the biological father's offspring. 

As much as has been pointed out that in Egypt the children -belong- to the father......in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing.  So Maria's expression 'her children' is merely a reflection of that difference in mindset.


Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2014, 01:16:44 PM »
It is irresponsible and cruel to forbid a woman to seek safety when she is subjected to violence in her own home.
but ok to forbid it to a man or children.
Huh?  How did you get that out of what I said?  ???
Well, the last few posts before mine were about women, so I was referencing that.  I agree that it could equally apply to men or children.
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2014, 02:21:55 PM »
in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing. 
I wonder why that is. Surely, the west is traditionally patriarchal, and even today the vast majority of children, at least those born within marriage, still receive their father's name. Then, in case of divorce, the mother takes the children, but the father still has to pay. I just cannot see the logic in that. Shouldn't the one who pays also have the children live with him or her?

In Sweden, the usual model is that children spend a week with one parent, then a week with the other parent, and each parents pays during his or her week. Makes more sense.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 02:26:25 PM »
in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing. 
I wonder why that is. Surely, the west is traditionally patriarchal, and even today the vast majority of children, at least those born within marriage, still receive their father's name. Then, in case of divorce, the mother takes the children, but the father still has to pay. I just cannot see the logic in that. Shouldn't the one who pays also have the children live with him or her?

In Sweden, the usual model is that children spend a week with one parent, then a week with the other parent, and each parents pays during his or her week. Makes more sense.
There are quite a few men's rights groups that make that very same argument.  The courts, however, typically shoot for a 50/50 split, but if push comes to shove, it usually goes in favor of the woman as mothers are considered to be the nurturers of the youth.  It is more of a throwback to when women did not work outside the home as much and were more involved in the childrearing than the fathers were.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 02:37:03 PM »
in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing. 
I wonder why that is. Surely, the west is traditionally patriarchal, and even today the vast majority of children, at least those born within marriage, still receive their father's name. Then, in case of divorce, the mother takes the children, but the father still has to pay. I just cannot see the logic in that. Shouldn't the one who pays also have the children live with him or her?

In Sweden, the usual model is that children spend a week with one parent, then a week with the other parent, and each parents pays during his or her week. Makes more sense.
There are quite a few men's rights groups that make that very same argument.  The courts, however, typically shoot for a 50/50 split, but if push comes to shove, it usually goes in favor of the woman as mothers are considered to be the nurturers of the youth.  It is more of a throwback to when women did not work outside the home as much and were more involved in the childrearing than the fathers were.

Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 02:41:59 PM »
in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing. 
I wonder why that is. Surely, the west is traditionally patriarchal, and even today the vast majority of children, at least those born within marriage, still receive their father's name. Then, in case of divorce, the mother takes the children, but the father still has to pay. I just cannot see the logic in that. Shouldn't the one who pays also have the children live with him or her?

In Sweden, the usual model is that children spend a week with one parent, then a week with the other parent, and each parents pays during his or her week. Makes more sense.
In US law it's called the Tender Years Doctrine. It came about from some court decisions, once divorce was moved from the jurisdiction of the legislature (you used to have to have an act of the legislature to get a divorce, like Henry VIII), in the 1800s.  Now it is disguised as the Best Interests of the Child standard.

There is a vested bureaucracy in collecting child support, which is why what you allege for the Swedish norm has problems here (although it does happen:I do recall once my divorce judge yelling at a couple doing that, because SHE didn't approve it).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 02:44:03 PM »
in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing. 
I wonder why that is. Surely, the west is traditionally patriarchal, and even today the vast majority of children, at least those born within marriage, still receive their father's name. Then, in case of divorce, the mother takes the children, but the father still has to pay. I just cannot see the logic in that. Shouldn't the one who pays also have the children live with him or her?

In Sweden, the usual model is that children spend a week with one parent, then a week with the other parent, and each parents pays during his or her week. Makes more sense.
There are quite a few men's rights groups that make that very same argument.  The courts, however, typically shoot for a 50/50 split, but if push comes to shove, it usually goes in favor of the woman as mothers are considered to be the nurturers of the youth.  It is more of a throwback to when women did not work outside the home as much and were more involved in the childrearing than the fathers were.

Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.
Sorry, you might be right. I should clarify that I was only speaking from my observations of family divorces.  Most of them have 50/50 physical custody arrangements. I suppose it could be quite different in other parts of the country or perhaps even the state.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 02:47:32 PM »
If a Christian is acting like an infidel Muslim by punching the lights out of his wife, then she should be able to divorce him for the safety of her own life and that of her children. Some men cannot control their anger or just do not care, or perhaps they are sleep deprived. Whatever.
leave "her children" out of it, as the incidence of domestic violence by men not their biological father in the house, doesn't support the coupling.

I do not think Maria meant to imply the children were not the biological father's offspring.
I was speaking of his successor in mom's bed.
As much as has been pointed out that in Egypt the children -belong- to the father......in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word)

au contraire, it is PRECISELY the right word.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 02:50:16 PM »
in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word) to and are considered to be more under the Mother's wing. 
I wonder why that is. Surely, the west is traditionally patriarchal, and even today the vast majority of children, at least those born within marriage, still receive their father's name. Then, in case of divorce, the mother takes the children, but the father still has to pay. I just cannot see the logic in that. Shouldn't the one who pays also have the children live with him or her?

In Sweden, the usual model is that children spend a week with one parent, then a week with the other parent, and each parents pays during his or her week. Makes more sense.
There are quite a few men's rights groups that make that very same argument.  The courts, however, typically shoot for a 50/50 split, but if push comes to shove, it usually goes in favor of the woman as mothers are considered to be the nurturers of the youth.  It is more of a throwback to when women did not work outside the home as much and were more involved in the childrearing than the fathers were.

Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.
Sorry, you might be right. I should clarify that I was only speaking from my observations of family divorces.  Most of them have 50/50 physical custody arrangements. I suppose it could be quite different in other parts of the country or perhaps even the state.
If the parents agree (read:if mom agrees), it can be done.  There was a study of a number of states-I forget which ones-where not a single instance of joint custody was by agreement.  In CA the custody decisions of the courts were 92% mom, 8% to dad.  Once the joint custody law was put in place it became 92% sole custody to mom, 8% joint custody.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 02:50:55 PM »
If a Christian is acting like an infidel Muslim by punching the lights out of his wife, then she should be able to divorce him for the safety of her own life and that of her children. Some men cannot control their anger or just do not care, or perhaps they are sleep deprived. Whatever.
leave "her children" out of it, as the incidence of domestic violence by men not their biological father in the house, doesn't support the coupling.

I do not think Maria meant to imply the children were not the biological father's offspring.
I was speaking of his successor in mom's bed.
As much as has been pointed out that in Egypt the children -belong- to the father......in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word)

au contraire, it is PRECISELY the right word.




No where in the example given was there such a 'successor'.....merely the possibility.



I get that this is clearly a hot topic issue for you personally, but I still contend that children are not -owned- by a parent here, despite your bad experience, which i am truly sorry you had.

:(


Offline Salpy

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
This was split off from a thread about domestic violence, divorce, and the Coptic Church:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,58958.msg1138618.html#top

Offline Gorazd

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 09:03:06 AM »
If the parents agree (read:if mom agrees), it can be done.  There was a study of a number of states-I forget which ones-where not a single instance of joint custody was by agreement.  In CA the custody decisions of the courts were 92% mom, 8% to dad.  Once the joint custody law was put in place it became 92% sole custody to mom, 8% joint custody.
Can't they make joint custody the normal case, from which one may deviate only in the most extreme circumstances? That is what they did in Germany. However, a majority of divorce children still mostly live with their mothers and the Scandinavian time-sharing model is being introduced only slowly.

Offline Punch

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 01:20:55 PM »
There would be so much less domestic violence if women would just learn to shut up and make us a sammich.





I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 01:59:39 PM »
If the parents agree (read:if mom agrees), it can be done.  There was a study of a number of states-I forget which ones-where not a single instance of joint custody was by agreement.  In CA the custody decisions of the courts were 92% mom, 8% to dad.  Once the joint custody law was put in place it became 92% sole custody to mom, 8% joint custody.
Can't they make joint custody the normal case, from which one may deviate only in the most extreme circumstances?
Why would they do that?  Lawyers don't make money that way, and judges don't have a reason to exist that way.

And judges don't want to be bothered with the most extreme circumstances.  German law is by case, Common Law by precedent and US Divorce law by rote.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 02:05:45 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 02:03:41 PM »
If a Christian is acting like an infidel Muslim by punching the lights out of his wife, then she should be able to divorce him for the safety of her own life and that of her children. Some men cannot control their anger or just do not care, or perhaps they are sleep deprived. Whatever.
leave "her children" out of it, as the incidence of domestic violence by men not their biological father in the house, doesn't support the coupling.

I do not think Maria meant to imply the children were not the biological father's offspring.
I was speaking of his successor in mom's bed.
As much as has been pointed out that in Egypt the children -belong- to the father......in America they 'belong' (and that's not really even the right word)

au contraire, it is PRECISELY the right word.




No where in the example given was there such a 'successor'.....merely the possibility.
the possibility is actualized repeatedly.

I get that this is clearly a hot topic issue for you personally, but I still contend that children are not -owned- by a parent here, despite your bad experience, which i am truly sorry you had.
thanks, but my views were informed before my personal issues.  The experience was even worse than my informed views expected.

The courts treat the children as the mother's property.  They will disclaim that, but "disclaimer" is legalese for "accurate description of what I am doing, but am denying."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 02:09:15 PM »
There would be so much less domestic violence if women would just learn to shut up and make us a sammich.













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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 02:26:28 PM »
There would be so much less domestic violence if women would just learn to shut up and make us a sammich.














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Offline jah777

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 02:03:19 PM »
Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.

What if the divorce is a result of the wife's infidelity?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 02:06:01 PM »
Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.

What if the divorce is a result of the wife's infidelity?
infidelity is noticed only if it is the man's-for a cash settlement even more favorable to the wife. And perhaps to restrict access to his kids.  But then since fidelity on the part of the man is punished even more harshly, it doesn't make much of a difference.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2014, 11:42:34 PM »
Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.

What if the divorce is a result of the wife's infidelity?
infidelity is noticed only if it is the man's-for a cash settlement even more favorable to the wife. And perhaps to restrict access to his kids.  But then since fidelity on the part of the man is punished even more harshly, it doesn't make much of a difference.

It is just so far removed on how God created the union of a man and a woman through matrimony.... The tangled web sin weaves.
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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 04:03:00 PM »
Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.

What if the divorce is a result of the wife's infidelity?
infidelity is noticed only if it is the man's-for a cash settlement even more favorable to the wife. And perhaps to restrict access to his kids.  But then since fidelity on the part of the man is punished even more harshly, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Which is why I'll never get married in the United States.

What's the point of marrying one educated, privileged American woman that can easily suck me dry if we divorce when for the price of one, I can go over to Yemen, marry 4 women, and they have to worship me or else they'll go to Islamic Hell?

Well, no not really  :D

You do however raise a point about the notoriously imbalanced American divorce system. It certainly does deter a person--at least myself--from the thought of ever marrying an American woman.
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Re: Domestic violence and divorce in America
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2014, 04:03:42 PM »
Where in the world do you get the idea that the US courts go for a 50/50 split?  They do absolutely no such thing, outside the few states that mandate joint custody except for exceptional circumstances.

you have a very interesting definition of "usually," as >90% it goes to the woman.

What if the divorce is a result of the wife's infidelity?
infidelity is noticed only if it is the man's-for a cash settlement even more favorable to the wife. And perhaps to restrict access to his kids.  But then since fidelity on the part of the man is punished even more harshly, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Which is why I'll never get married in the United States.

What's the point of marrying one educated, privileged American woman that can easily suck me dry if we divorce when for the price of one, I can go over to Yemen, marry 4 women, and they have to worship me or else they'll go to Islamic Hell?

Well, no not really  :D

You do however raise a point about the notoriously imbalanced American divorce system. It certainly does deter a person--at least myself--from the thought of ever marrying an American woman.

You're barely even trying anymore.
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