OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 17, 2014, 12:02:07 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: "The Tired Cliche of Orthodox Sectarianism"  (Read 1083 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,329


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« on: June 13, 2014, 12:27:19 AM »

Another spot on essay by Father Oliver Herbel. No surprise to most of you here, but Father puts to wordssentiments to which I fully agree.

"Recently, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome gathered together and delivered a joint statement.  The momentum of the event has led to an intended meeting of some kind to commemorate the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (held in 325), planned for the year 2025.  Well meaning, conservative but ecumenically minded (at least with regards to the Orthodox) Roman Catholics have expressed appreciation for this and have asked me what I thought.  In sum, I have told them it is a step in the right direction but as long as Moscow and Istanbul remain in a spitting match and Orthodoxy (at least in America) continues to attract people who want to deny being Western Christians and continues to foster an anti-Western-Christian perspective in Eastern European countries, the refusal to pursue serious dialogue for change will remain a stumbling block within Orthodoxy."

- See more at: http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/2014/06/13/the-tired-cliche-of-orthodox-sectarianism/#sthash.t1KTjuIr.dpuf
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,577



« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2014, 03:52:06 AM »

Another spot on essay by Father Oliver Herbel. No surprise to most of you here, but Father puts to wordssentiments to which I fully agree.

"Recently, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome gathered together and delivered a joint statement.  The momentum of the event has led to an intended meeting of some kind to commemorate the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (held in 325), planned for the year 2025.  Well meaning, conservative but ecumenically minded (at least with regards to the Orthodox) Roman Catholics have expressed appreciation for this and have asked me what I thought.  In sum, I have told them it is a step in the right direction but as long as Moscow and Istanbul remain in a spitting match and Orthodoxy (at least in America) continues to attract people who want to deny being Western Christians and continues to foster an anti-Western-Christian perspective in Eastern European countries, the refusal to pursue serious dialogue for change will remain a stumbling block within Orthodoxy."

- See more at: http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/2014/06/13/the-tired-cliche-of-orthodox-sectarianism/#sthash.t1KTjuIr.dpuf

I disagree. Fr. Oliver seems not even to have understood precisely what the article is reacting against (granted it is a very specific issue, one which has not received much attention, especially in the English-speaking Orthodox world, but I can guarantee you that it is anything but cliche). The article is reacting against the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarch has signed a document which takes for granted the troublesomely innovative ecclesiological principles which were basically invented by Yves Congar (indeed, according to the Vincentian canon, an idea having a definitive origin with one author alone certainly contradicts any claim to Catholicity that such a belief could have).

For example, Fr. Oliver writes:
Quote
If one is going to speak of a church as having a “fullness” to its faith that another church does not have, it does not mean: ” this ecclesiology allows for participation in the Church’s sacraments outside of her canonical boundaries.”

But he does not seem to understand that this is precisely what the ecclesiology of degrees of communion presupposes. It presupposes that there can be no sacraments outside of the Church (as we Orthodox believe as well). Therefore, according to those who subscribe to an ecclesiology of degrees of communion, if there are valid sacraments, those who celebrate them must be a part of the Church, though their communion with her is impeded and not in its fullness. Compare that ecclesiology to an Augustinian one, where there can be sacraments outside of the Church, and the sacraments of heretics and schismatics do not induct one into the Church, or with a Cyprianic one, whereby there are no sacraments at all among heretics or schismatics, and that the pseudosacraments of heretics and schismatics therefore are simply empty rituals that do not induct one into the Church. Either way, the ecclesiology of degrees of communion contradicts both of the older ecclesiological models (that is Cyprianic and Augustinian) by asserting that the sacraments of heretics and schismatics are a true entry into the Church, though an entry into impeded communion with her.

He goes on to write:
Quote
That simply doesn’t follow.  It could follow, and one could argue that another church body is so close to one’s own that intercommunion ought to happen, but intercommunion itself doesn’t necessarily follow from “fullness.”

Here I think it goes without explaining that the Reverend Fr. Oliver has not understood the article in question, as the article is not speaking of whether intercommunion ought to happen, but whether there are sacraments outside of the Church, and whether these sacraments could in any way be conceived as an entry into the Church. The Cyprianic model answers no to both questions, while the Augustinian model answers yes to the former and no to the latter. But the new 20th century ecclesiology of degrees of communion answers yes to both, a clear aberration away from the belief of the fathers on whether or not the sacraments of heretics and schismatics can bring one entry into the Church.

Quote
As for stating that the church divided “in time,” the patriarch was simply making a historical statement.  Even on a most basic level, one cannot have a “schism” without a “tearing.”  The separation or division happened from within the church.  Schismatics are not people following a separate religion who do not join ours.  A schism occurs when there is a separation.

Here I think Fr. Oliver again has missed the point of the article. There is a difference between saying that there is an estrangement which comes with schism and saying that the Church becomes divided. The Fathers in speaking of schismatics freely admit that they are from the Church (see St. Basil's first canon), but they never admit that the Church is still manifest among them. Rather, schismatics fall away from the Church and have no rightful claim to be the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is one because of her one faith, her one baptism, and above all, her one Lord. We cannot have a divided Church with several schismatic factions just as we cannot have multiple baptisms, multiple faiths, and multiple Lords. Schismatics fall away from the Church and become estranged from her, yes, but schismatics in no way introduce division into the Catholic Church.

Near the end, he writes:
Quote
the theology presented by this anonymous (and why be anonymous when pontificating?) priest is just as cliche....

I can say that the theology presented by the article is not cliche at all, because the priest who wrote the article is in fact at the forefront of ecclesiological thought in the Orthodox world (if one has read any papers by him before, it is rather easy to recognize who it is, as his ecclesiological concerns and thought have remained rather consistent over time). As to the anonymity of the author, I can only remark that the author will likely take credit for the article in a while. I think that the pressing need to oppose these recent ecumenistic excess of the Ecumenical Patriarch has necessitated acting quickly to push out a less polished and anonymously published product. I have no doubt that the author soon shall have a more refined and more substantial version of this paper ready to be published with his name underneath it.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:54:03 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,589



« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2014, 05:17:53 AM »

Another spot on essay by Father Oliver Herbel. No surprise to most of you here, but Father puts to wordssentiments to which I fully agree.

"Recently, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome gathered together and delivered a joint statement.  The momentum of the event has led to an intended meeting of some kind to commemorate the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (held in 325), planned for the year 2025.  Well meaning, conservative but ecumenically minded (at least with regards to the Orthodox) Roman Catholics have expressed appreciation for this and have asked me what I thought.  In sum, I have told them it is a step in the right direction but as long as Moscow and Istanbul remain in a spitting match and Orthodoxy (at least in America) continues to attract people who want to deny being Western Christians and continues to foster an anti-Western-Christian perspective in Eastern European countries, the refusal to pursue serious dialogue for change will remain a stumbling block within Orthodoxy."

- See more at: http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/2014/06/13/the-tired-cliche-of-orthodox-sectarianism/#sthash.t1KTjuIr.dpuf
He seems to forget that many in Orthodoxy whose forebears have been attracted to Orthodoxy for almost the last two millenia are not Western Christians. No denial involved, simple fact.
Quote
Another thing the author of the article left out was the body of ecumenical statements concerning various theological issues, such as the filioque.  This is a glaring omission, for by ignoring more recent discussions, the author is able to appeal solely to earlier statements as though later discussions and developments do not matter.
It many ways, they don't.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 05:21:06 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,983


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 09:30:04 AM »

I can say that the theology presented by the article is not cliche at all, because the priest who wrote the article is in fact at the forefront of ecclesiological thought in the Orthodox world (if one has read any papers by him before, it is rather easy to recognize who it is, as his ecclesiological concerns and thought have remained rather consistent over time). As to the anonymity of the author, I can only remark that the author will likely take credit for the article in a while. I think that the pressing need to oppose these recent ecumenistic excess of the Ecumenical Patriarch has necessitated acting quickly to push out a less polished and anonymously published product. I have no doubt that the author soon shall have a more refined and more substantial version of this paper ready to be published with his name underneath it.

Who is the author?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,122



« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 07:08:41 PM »

"The Tired Cliche of Orthodox Sectarianism"

My first thought here was "Yeah, that is kind of a tired cliche." But afterwards I thought, "Well there are other cliches, like good-cop/bad-cop."

Any takers for this Halloween? We just need one Orthodox "ecumenist" to dress up as a good cop, and one Orthodox "anti-ecumenist" to dress up as a bad cop. (I'll volunteer to be the un-Orthodox suspect that you've brought in for questioning.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,122



« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 10:57:32 PM »

"The Tired Cliche of Orthodox Sectarianism"

My first thought here was "Yeah, that is kind of a tired cliche." But afterwards I thought, "Well there are other cliches, like good-cop/bad-cop."

Any takers for this Halloween? We just need one Orthodox "ecumenist" to dress up as a good cop, and one Orthodox "anti-ecumenist" to dress up as a bad cop. (I'll volunteer to be the un-Orthodox suspect that you've brought in for questioning.)

Nobody wants to take me up on that??

Oh well, I guess we could go back to discussing the Tired Cliche of Orthodox Sectarianism. (Though not right this minute because I'm going to bed.)

 Smiley
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,752



« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 02:05:49 AM »

"The Tired Cliche of Orthodox Sectarianism"

My first thought here was "Yeah, that is kind of a tired cliche." But afterwards I thought, "Well there are other cliches, like good-cop/bad-cop."

Any takers for this Halloween? We just need one Orthodox "ecumenist" to dress up as a good cop, and one Orthodox "anti-ecumenist" to dress up as a bad cop. (I'll volunteer to be the un-Orthodox suspect that you've brought in for questioning.)

But Orthodox do not participate in the demonic Halloween! or something...
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 02:59:13 AM »

I hate sectarianism and Latins.

JK Wink
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 03:02:06 AM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,279


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 03:07:30 AM »

When I hear (or read) 'Latins', I imagine something like this:

Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,752



« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 05:10:32 AM »

When I hear (or read) 'Latins', I imagine something like this:



I really don't like that group
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,122



« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2014, 07:58:04 AM »

I hate sectarianism and Latins.

JK Wink

That harkens back to the thing from a few years ago about how we should all "pray that the Protestants and secularists be kept away" from Eastern Europe. (That's a quote from memory, so it may not be exact.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,896



« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2014, 09:05:58 AM »

I hate sectarianism and Latins.

JK Wink

That harkens back to the thing from a few years ago about how we should all "pray that the Protestants and secularists be kept away" from Eastern Europe. (That's a quote from memory, so it may not be exact.)
Seems reasonable to me. Can we keep them away from the USA too?  Wink
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,122



« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2014, 09:19:34 AM »

I hate sectarianism and Latins.

JK Wink

That harkens back to the thing from a few years ago about how we should all "pray that the Protestants and secularists be kept away" from Eastern Europe. (That's a quote from memory, so it may not be exact.)
Seems reasonable to me. Can we keep them away from the USA too?  Wink

This may sound strange, given that I have several times complained about posters not having a sense of humor ... but I'm not a big fan of your post, TT.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,896



« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2014, 09:25:13 AM »

I hate sectarianism and Latins.

JK Wink

That harkens back to the thing from a few years ago about how we should all "pray that the Protestants and secularists be kept away" from Eastern Europe. (That's a quote from memory, so it may not be exact.)
Seems reasonable to me. Can we keep them away from the USA too?  Wink

This may sound strange, given that I have several times complained about posters not having a sense of humor ... but I'm not a big fan of your post, TT.
That's ok. I get that a lot.  Usually it is in my inbox though.  Smiley

I don't actually mind Protestants, which is a good thing considering my entire family is Protestant. Secularists only annoy me when I see unending "news articles" or posts where ever I go denouncing religious "fairy tales".
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,122



« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2014, 12:21:30 PM »

"The Tired Cliche of Orthodox Sectarianism"

My first thought here was "Yeah, that is kind of a tired cliche." But afterwards I thought, "Well there are other cliches, like good-cop/bad-cop."

Any takers for this Halloween? We just need one Orthodox "ecumenist" to dress up as a good cop, and one Orthodox "anti-ecumenist" to dress up as a bad cop. (I'll volunteer to be the un-Orthodox suspect that you've brought in for questioning.)

But Orthodox do not participate in the demonic Halloween! or something...

Well, there's Halloween and there's Halloween. See here.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Justin Kolodziej
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (Carmelite wannabe)
Jurisdiction: The Bishop of Raleigh
Posts: 287


which way's mt. carmel again???


« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2014, 12:49:55 PM »

I hate sectarianism and Latins.

JK Wink

That harkens back to the thing from a few years ago about how we should all "pray that the Protestants and secularists be kept away" from Eastern Europe. (That's a quote from memory, so it may not be exact.)
Seems reasonable to me. Can we keep them away from the USA too?  Wink
Too late, it's been overrun with them from day 1.  Perhaps we should find a priest to pray the "deprecatory blessing against pests" from the old Roman Ritual against them Tongue
Logged

St. Justin Martyr, St. John Cassian, St. Simon Stock, St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, pray for me!
Sirach
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 251


Just trying to learn something.


« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 04:10:14 AM »

Another spot on essay by Father Oliver Herbel. No surprise to most of you here, but Father puts to wordssentiments to which I fully agree.

"Recently, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome gathered together and delivered a joint statement.  The momentum of the event has led to an intended meeting of some kind to commemorate the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (held in 325), planned for the year 2025.  Well meaning, conservative but ecumenically minded (at least with regards to the Orthodox) Roman Catholics have expressed appreciation for this and have asked me what I thought.  In sum, I have told them it is a step in the right direction but as long as Moscow and Istanbul remain in a spitting match and Orthodoxy (at least in America) continues to attract people who want to deny being Western Christians and continues to foster an anti-Western-Christian perspective in Eastern European countries, the refusal to pursue serious dialogue for change will remain a stumbling block within Orthodoxy."

- See more at: http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/2014/06/13/the-tired-cliche-of-orthodox-sectarianism/#sthash.t1KTjuIr.dpuf

Is it, in fact, 'no surprise'?  That is, as a stand alone statement, is the underlined a valid criticism of Orthodoxy in its dialogue with Roman Catholics?
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,122



« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2014, 09:14:27 AM »

Another spot on essay by Father Oliver Herbel. No surprise to most of you here, but Father puts to wordssentiments to which I fully agree.

"Recently, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome gathered together and delivered a joint statement.  The momentum of the event has led to an intended meeting of some kind to commemorate the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (held in 325), planned for the year 2025.  Well meaning, conservative but ecumenically minded (at least with regards to the Orthodox) Roman Catholics have expressed appreciation for this and have asked me what I thought.  In sum, I have told them it is a step in the right direction but as long as Moscow and Istanbul remain in a spitting match and Orthodoxy (at least in America) continues to attract people who want to deny being Western Christians and continues to foster an anti-Western-Christian perspective in Eastern European countries, the refusal to pursue serious dialogue for change will remain a stumbling block within Orthodoxy."

- See more at: http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/2014/06/13/the-tired-cliche-of-orthodox-sectarianism/#sthash.t1KTjuIr.dpuf

Is it, in fact, 'no surprise'?  That is, as a stand alone statement, is the underlined a valid criticism of Orthodoxy in its dialogue with Roman Catholics?

I can't speak on behalf of podkarpatska, of course, but the "no surprise to most of you here" remark seemed reasonable to me, inasmuch as podkarpatska has spoken on such things many times before.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,329


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 09:45:01 AM »

Another spot on essay by Father Oliver Herbel. No surprise to most of you here, but Father puts to wordssentiments to which I fully agree.

"Recently, the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome gathered together and delivered a joint statement.  The momentum of the event has led to an intended meeting of some kind to commemorate the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (held in 325), planned for the year 2025.  Well meaning, conservative but ecumenically minded (at least with regards to the Orthodox) Roman Catholics have expressed appreciation for this and have asked me what I thought.  In sum, I have told them it is a step in the right direction but as long as Moscow and Istanbul remain in a spitting match and Orthodoxy (at least in America) continues to attract people who want to deny being Western Christians and continues to foster an anti-Western-Christian perspective in Eastern European countries, the refusal to pursue serious dialogue for change will remain a stumbling block within Orthodoxy."

- See more at: http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/2014/06/13/the-tired-cliche-of-orthodox-sectarianism/#sthash.t1KTjuIr.dpuf

Is it, in fact, 'no surprise'?  That is, as a stand alone statement, is the underlined a valid criticism of Orthodoxy in its dialogue with Roman Catholics?


No. While such sentiments appear online with some frequency, and anti western.voices surely exist in east Europe, they are nor reflective in my view of Orthodoxy as a whole, any more than say sedevacantism is reflective of Roman Catholicism.

Dialogue moves on, but to what end? .... I suspect seemingly endless talk in the end.....but no intercommunion in our times.
Logged
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,858


« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 10:06:13 AM »

removed for redundancy
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 10:07:48 AM by jah777 » Logged
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,858


« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 11:55:05 AM »

Posted also in the comments section of the article:

Fr. Oliver,

The author of the article to which you object offered a thorough and sound critique of the event in question on the basis of Orthodox ecclesiology and provided many references and quotes from the saints, Fathers, councils, and Scriptures to demonstrate the Orthodox teaching regarding ecclesiology and schism.  You criticize him for his “erroneous rejection of ‘fullness’ ecclesiology” and yet you do not explain what is this “fullness” ecclesiology, what is its basis, and why his rejection of this ecclesiology is “erroneous”. 

The canons of St. Basil have been ratified by the Ecumenical Councils and are considered universal in authority within the Orthodox Church.  St. Basil’s first canon states regarding those who go in schism,

“For although the ones who were the first to depart had been ordained by the Fathers and with the imposition of their hands they had obtained the gracious gift of the Spirit, yet after breaking away they became laymen, and had no authority either to baptize or to ordain anyone, nor could they impart the grace of the Spirit to others, after they themselves had forfeited it.”

Do you criticize St. Basil and the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils as promoting “Orthodox sectarianism” by rejecting some undefined “fullness ecclesiology” of questionable origins?  Does not St. Basil, along with all those quoted and referenced by this priest teach that Roman Catholicism is heretical and outside of the Church?  If you claim that such statements are “selective”, can you provide statements from saints, fathers, and Councils that demonstrate your “ecclesiology of fullness”?  Can you show that such views represent the consensus of the Fathers and are not simply the result of Latin influence and the teachings of Augustine? 

You mention that “the priest is just as cliché.”  If his comments were based on the teachings of the saints, Fathers, and Councils, have these sources not become “cliché” to you?  A cliché is “a phrase or opinion that is overused and betrays a lack of original thought.”  When we are discussing Orthodox ecclesiology, are we looking to come up with some original thought, some new idea of our own, or should we be looking to faithfully follow the consistent, universal, and unoriginal teachings of our saints, Fathers, and Councils regarding this subject?  Furthermore, by describing the teachings of the saints, Fathers, and councils as “sectarian”, are you not calling the Orthodox Church a sect rather than the body of Christ?

This priest rightly objected to Patriarch Bartholomew’s characterization of the schism as resulting from “the dominance of human weakness and of impermanence of the will of the human intellect”, and the continuation of the schism being due to the “human element” dominating.  Our saints, Fathers, and Councils have specifically stated that the schism was the result of Latin heresies and not because of “human weakness”.  Is the Orthodox Church guided by the Holy Spirit or by the “human element”?  Is our continued schism the result of a “dominance of human weakness” or Rome’s unwillingness to repent of their heretical teachings and return to the common faith of the first millennium?

You characterized the priest’s article as a “knee-jerk” reaction but this was actually the impression I have of your response.  His explanation was thorough, with many quotes showing exactly what he objects to and on what basis, whereas you do not establish a basis for your objections nor do you offer a thorough critique of his arguments or sources.  It appears as though you did not read the article but instead made a knee-jerk response with all kinds of unhelpful and unsubstantiated mischaracterizations (that he is burying his head in the sand and “flipping the bird” to the West, that he thinks the West is evil, that he is teaching sectarianism, etc.).

You are right that we should engage the non-Orthodox, but if we are to do so as Orthodox Christians we should be honest regarding Orthodox teachings and what must happen for union to occur.  If we are discussing ecclesiology, we need to demonstrate, as this priest did, the basis of Orthodox ecclesiology by appealing to the writings of the saints, fathers, and Councils rather than looking to what some unauthoritative and controversial contemporary dialogue has produced. The idea that we should “mature beyond” the teachings of the Church is itself a sectarian idea that is unhelpful to any discussion on Orthodox ecclesiology.   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 11:56:25 AM by jah777 » Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,983


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 01:13:08 PM »

...the saints, Fathers, councils, and Scriptures...

Much of what's wrong with modern Orthodoxy is summed up quite nicely here.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,896



« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2014, 10:01:58 AM »

...the saints, Fathers, councils, and Scriptures...

Much of what's wrong with modern Orthodoxy is summed up quite nicely here.
Is that because ancient Orthodoxy did not follow those?  Wink
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.115 seconds with 50 queries.