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Author Topic: Domestic violence and Coptic divorce  (Read 2443 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gorazd
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« on: June 11, 2014, 09:02:33 PM »

http://www.shorouknews.com/news/view.aspx?cdate=10062014&id=ed4e029e-2536-4030-bb80-53d4347dcd3c
This is a link in Arabic. It seems to say that Coptic Pope Tawadros wants to make domestic violence a reason for divorce.
For those whose Arabic is better than mine, can you confirm?

I hope it is not true. As much as I disagree with Pope Shenouda on theosis, I deeply respect him for applying the words of Christ on the topic of divorce.
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 09:45:08 PM »

If a Christian is acting like an infidel Muslim by punching the lights out of his wife, then she should be able to divorce him for the safety of her own life and that of her children. Some men cannot control their anger or just do not care, or perhaps they are sleep deprived. Whatever.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 09:47:03 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 09:51:13 PM »

God forbid we lose the right to beat our wives and still call them wives.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 10:40:16 PM »

--Sub--
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« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 10:55:37 PM »

It is irresponsible and cruel to forbid a woman to seek safety when she is subjected to violence in her own home.
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« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 11:06:08 PM »

It is irresponsible and cruel to forbid a woman to seek safety when she is subjected to violence in her own home.

We agree.
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2014, 12:05:27 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 12:11:06 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.

Sure.  And then what?
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2014, 12:16:39 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.

Sure.  And then what?

And then going on with their lives. That is not much of a marriage though but it still retains the idea of divorce is wrong.
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2014, 12:18:24 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.

Sure.  And then what?

And then going on with their lives. That is not much of a marriage though but it still retains the idea of divorce is wrong.


and in many places, condemns that woman to having no reasonable way to earn a living.....so 'going on with their lives' is a bit of a one sided thing.

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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2014, 12:24:35 AM »

Oh boy, this is going to be one of those threads.
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 12:26:48 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.

Sure.  And then what?

And then going on with their lives. That is not much of a marriage though but it still retains the idea of divorce is wrong.

Don't worry.  Besides the truth of what Denise wrote, no one will ever let the divorcee believe s/he was right to leave an abusive marriage and "go on with life".
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2014, 12:37:50 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.

Sure.  And then what?

And then going on with their lives. That is not much of a marriage though but it still retains the idea of divorce is wrong.

That's what the Coptic Church tried to do for some time, but it seems the bishops are starting to get the message that a lot of cases of spousal abuse does not get resolved by temporary separation, especially when the spouse deserves no relationship whatsoever for being the abuser who does not change.

And to be quite honest, before Pope Shenouda, this was actually one of 9 reasons for divorce in the past for the Coptic Church, and it is explained here:

http://www.masress.com/en/dailynews/113948

If one needs to keep the words of Christ strict, not even religion should be an excuse, and that HH Pope Shenouda allowed as a reason for divorce.  So, I'm not sure why exactly spousal abuse was not another reason.  It makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, you don't want to push Copts in a corner where the only choice they have is to convert to Islam so that they could get a divorce.  It seems HH Pope Tawadros is taking a serious step to try to resolve some of the divorce issues plaguing Coptic societies.
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« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2014, 03:30:32 AM »

I agree that domestic violence is a proper reason for divorce. That said, even if one applied Christ's words literally one could still allow moving away from abusive husband/wife.

Sure.  And then what?

And then going on with their lives. That is not much of a marriage though but it still retains the idea of divorce is wrong.

Don't worry.  Besides the truth of what Denise wrote, no one will ever let the divorcee believe s/he was right to leave an abusive marriage and "go on with life".

You're probably right. But I was just thinking how the problem could be theoretically solved. I've never really been practical when it comes to moral issues. Gray areas don't fit me.  Tongue
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2014, 05:47:37 AM »

Let's remember that what is usually called "church divorce" is in fact permission to remarry.

I do think it would be cruel and to force one spouse to stay with a violent spouse (and btw, there also are cases where women beat men).

However, I am not convinced that in such a case, remarriage must be allowed.
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2014, 06:09:00 AM »

Let's remember that what is usually called "church divorce" is in fact permission to remarry.

I do think it would be cruel and to force one spouse to stay with a violent spouse (and btw, there also are cases where women beat men).

However, I am not convinced that in such a case, remarriage must be allowed.

No remarriage for the abused spouse, even if he or she has young children?  Shocked Angry Angry
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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2014, 08:15:32 AM »

Please see my point about lack of opportunity.

Without me sticking my big fat white American head in too far, you are talking about people in/from a place where an unprotected woman is easily re-abused.

That permission to remarry, might be all what stands between homelessness and shame and a way forward for the abused woman and her kids.

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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2014, 08:47:01 AM »

I have lived in Egypt, so two points
1) In case of divorce or even separation, a woman does not stay unprotected, but returns to her father or closest male relative.
2) Children, according to Egyptian law, belong to their father. In case the parents are divorced or live separately, they may stay with the mother as long as she is breastfeeding and, with the agreement of the father, even after that but at most until they are 11. Then they must definitely come to the father.

PS: If a divorced woman (a Muslim usually, or even a Christian who somehow managed to divorce or get an annulment) remarries, any children who are still living with her must directly be given to the father. That is to prevent them from starting to see their mother's new husband as a father. After all, children belong to the father and adoption is illegal.
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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2014, 10:34:24 AM »

I'm not Orthodox Christian, and what I say doesn't not represent the Orthodox Church teachings or speaking for Orthodox Christians Just I had to say this so later nobody will get offended or upset because I speak my opinion

What I think is, if a Church force a woman to stay with her abusive husband, then there is something seriously wrong with this Church. The Church should get the husband and the wife, make sure that the claims are accurate, and in case they were, they should work on solving the situation, if there is no hope and the abuse still continue, DIVORCE right away.

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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2014, 10:41:19 AM »

if there is abuse then the victim should separate if it is dangerous physically and emotionally if it is prolonged but divorce is not permitted. Forgiveness to the abuser may change his heart while in the marriage or during separation and Jesus said if we do not forgive we go to hell

changing religion if there is no abuse is not a good reason for divorce but the christian must have the right to teach the christian faith to his/her children or that is abuse

If however one got cheated in marriage for marrying someone that faked a promise to be kind and good then I suppose divorce is okay if one is seriously abusive and knows he is doing wrong but not willing to change unless the abuser is acting abusively because he is hurt and needs time to sort out his deeper issues but is not acting abusively because he wants to cheat his spouse and have her in submission to be a "man"  and to be selfish
and knowing why he is hurting her feelings but not caring about her as a person but just as an object for many times

St Paul says it is not lawful to divorce but if it must be let them separate
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2014, 10:43:40 AM »

What I think is, if a Church force a woman to stay with her abusive husband, then there is something seriously wrong with this Church. The Church should get the husband and the wife, make sure that the claims are accurate, and in case they were, they should work on solving the situation, if there is no hope and the abuse still continue, DIVORCE right away.

Do you understand that no one is forcing anyone to continue living together? However, divorce in the sense of permission for remarriage was allowed by Jesus Christ only in one case, and that is adultery. I don't think it's "wrong" to do what Christ said.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2014, 02:25:25 PM »

Let's remember that what is usually called "church divorce" is in fact permission to remarry.

I do think it would be cruel and to force one spouse to stay with a violent spouse (and btw, there also are cases where women beat men).

However, I am not convinced that in such a case, remarriage must be allowed.

Forgive me, but your posts in this thread sound more or less like Latin objections to Orthodox practice, which, when you break them down, basically amount to "Divorce is a horrible sin, more horrible than anything you might have endured ("allegedly"), and as punishment you can never have sex anymore without automatically incurring more sin because you're just an evil, irredeemable sinner".  

If you are framing the matter in terms of obligation--that the Church "must" allow re-marriage in the specific case quoted above--then I would agree.  The Church doesn't have to allow it.  The Church doesn't have to allow a lot of things, and I've seen my fair share of "the Church" ignoring problems hoping they would just go away rather than require "the Church" to act.  But the Church has a responsibility, an obligation, to see to the welfare of her members.  That may look different in different places and situations, but the fundamental obligation is the same, and I would argue that, unless "the Church" is willing to take up the herculean task of transforming her faithful into an Acts (2.43-47; 4.32-35) style community, "the Church" may very well have to allow things that are not the ideal in particular in order to ensure the best possible circumstances for the ideal in general.  

I have lived in Egypt, so two points
1) In case of divorce or even separation, a woman does not stay unprotected, but returns to her father or closest male relative.
2) Children, according to Egyptian law, belong to their father. In case the parents are divorced or live separately, they may stay with the mother as long as she is breastfeeding and, with the agreement of the father, even after that but at most until they are 11. Then they must definitely come to the father.

PS: If a divorced woman (a Muslim usually, or even a Christian who somehow managed to divorce or get an annulment) remarries, any children who are still living with her must directly be given to the father. That is to prevent them from starting to see their mother's new husband as a father. After all, children belong to the father and adoption is illegal.

I have not lived in Egypt, nor am I Egyptian, so I will not comment on legal particulars.  But I am from a culture and community which is more like them than not, and I would argue there is another side to all this: the stigma of marital strife and, if it gets to that level, divorce.  Since marriage is not merely between two people, but is a union of families, what happens in a marriage affects more than just the spouses.  Do not underestimate the ramifications of this mindset.  

In the name of "protecting the family reputation" so that

a) both families as a whole do not look bad
b) the family of either party, whether guilty or innocent, does not look bad
c) the parents of either party do not look bad
d) the married siblings of either party are not made to look bad in the eyes of their spouses, in-laws, etc.
e) the unmarried siblings of either party are not prevented from marrying "good" partners
 
and a host of similar reasons, families will exert all sorts of pressure to keep a marriage visibly intact at any cost.  I am personally familiar with cases in which marriages were entered into hastily and without full freedom, with some level of deception, marriages where emotional, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse has been perpetrated not only once (though that would be enough) but consistently for years, etc.  In almost all cases, the "innocent" party is told about how God hates divorce, that God wants him/her to forgive and move on even if the other person doesn't change, that s/he must've provoked this bad behaviour in the other and must endure it, that a "wife's duty" is to be obedient to her husband, even if that means taking the beatings, that St Paul says that spouses aren't to refuse each other so God is pleased when s/he allows the other to have their way with him/her even if it is demeaning, against their will, etc.  The family of the "innocent" party will even try to appease the "guilty" party and his/her family in various ways.  All of this is for one reason and one reason only: to protect the family reputation.  Only in the case of sexual infidelity is there more "acceptance" of divorce, and even in this case, it depends on who is guilty: usually (but not always) families will try to preserve the marriage if the guilty party is the man, but even God won't help if the guilty party is the woman.  

In any case, if the problems in a marriage cannot be resolved or at least hidden from public knowledge, and it ends in separation or divorce, speaking about the woman finding protection in her father's house is a joke.  Usually that family has exerted enough pressure on the woman that she is simply trading one abusive situation for another and can never look at them or love them the same again.  The protecting families look at the divorcee as a burden, even as a traitor, someone who has taken a knife and thrust it into the heart of the family to kill it.  In a similar way, this affects men as well (I've tried to be fair because I'm familiar with both cases), but there are cultural factors which make a woman's situation different.  The divorcee has a difficult time "going on with life" because of the various social pressures that exist: either they cannot appear in public without inviting criticism, shame, looks, or they are prohibited from participating in family and social activities, many stop coming to church either because the parish situation is such that they will be made to feel like an outcast or the family prevents them from going so that they can at least participate without the stress.  Pastoral outreach to these people is abysmally lacking: in most case, they are ignored, and when they are not, they are usually told about how God disapproves of them and will not forgive certain things.  In those cases where the clergy are not so bad, the burden will still be on the person to seek out the Church because eventually even the priests will forget about you after they've "done their thing".  

I don't know if Egyptian culture is like this, but mine sadly is like this more often than I'd like to admit in these cases (and most "traditional" cultures have their own variations on this theme).  "Permission to remarry", in such a situation, is less about "canonical permission to have sex" and more about "allowing someone to live" because the alternative is a form of hellish entombment while alive.  

The Church absolutely has a responsibility to these people.  It cannot simply wash its hands and say

...divorce in the sense of permission for remarriage was allowed by Jesus Christ only in one case, and that is adultery. I don't think it's "wrong" to do what Christ said.
 

without having a "plan B" for how to take care of these wounded, hurting people.  Or are we to believe that the Incarnate Logos was so annoyed by the idea of sexual infidelity that he allowed a man to divorce his wife for it (but not necessarily the other way around, if we are sticking closely to the words), but did not bother to leave equally clear instructions for those in abusive situations because he just didn't care if women (or men) were abused in other ways?  

Marriage is about more than sex, and resurrection is about more than physical resuscitation after death.  A Church which places such stock in these things cannot be passive.  It must go out to the lost sheep.  How best to do that can and ought to be discussed, but it cannot be left at "certain options are impossible, we have no idea what to do, get lost".    
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2014, 02:42:15 PM »

Let's remember that what is usually called "church divorce" is in fact permission to remarry.

I do think it would be cruel and to force one spouse to stay with a violent spouse (and btw, there also are cases where women beat men).

However, I am not convinced that in such a case, remarriage must be allowed.

Forgive me, but your posts in this thread sound more or less like Latin objections to Orthodox practice, which, when you break them down, basically amount to "Divorce is a horrible sin, more horrible than anything you might have endured ("allegedly"), and as punishment you can never have sex anymore without automatically incurring more sin because you're just an evil, irredeemable sinner".  

If you are framing the matter in terms of obligation--that the Church "must" allow re-marriage in the specific case quoted above--then I would agree.  The Church doesn't have to allow it.  The Church doesn't have to allow a lot of things, and I've seen my fair share of "the Church" ignoring problems hoping they would just go away rather than require "the Church" to act.  But the Church has a responsibility, an obligation, to see to the welfare of her members.  That may look different in different places and situations, but the fundamental obligation is the same, and I would argue that, unless "the Church" is willing to take up the herculean task of transforming her faithful into an Acts (2.43-47; 4.32-35) style community, "the Church" may very well have to allow things that are not the ideal in particular in order to ensure the best possible circumstances for the ideal in general.  

I have lived in Egypt, so two points
1) In case of divorce or even separation, a woman does not stay unprotected, but returns to her father or closest male relative.
2) Children, according to Egyptian law, belong to their father. In case the parents are divorced or live separately, they may stay with the mother as long as she is breastfeeding and, with the agreement of the father, even after that but at most until they are 11. Then they must definitely come to the father.

PS: If a divorced woman (a Muslim usually, or even a Christian who somehow managed to divorce or get an annulment) remarries, any children who are still living with her must directly be given to the father. That is to prevent them from starting to see their mother's new husband as a father. After all, children belong to the father and adoption is illegal.

I have not lived in Egypt, nor am I Egyptian, so I will not comment on legal particulars.  But I am from a culture and community which is more like them than not, and I would argue there is another side to all this: the stigma of marital strife and, if it gets to that level, divorce.  Since marriage is not merely between two people, but is a union of families, what happens in a marriage affects more than just the spouses.  Do not underestimate the ramifications of this mindset.  

In the name of "protecting the family reputation" so that

a) both families as a whole do not look bad
b) the family of either party, whether guilty or innocent, does not look bad
c) the parents of either party do not look bad
d) the married siblings of either party are not made to look bad in the eyes of their spouses, in-laws, etc.
e) the unmarried siblings of either party are not prevented from marrying "good" partners
 
and a host of similar reasons, families will exert all sorts of pressure to keep a marriage visibly intact at any cost.  I am personally familiar with cases in which marriages were entered into hastily and without full freedom, with some level of deception, marriages where emotional, verbal, physical, and sexual abuse has been perpetrated not only once (though that would be enough) but consistently for years, etc.  In almost all cases, the "innocent" party is told about how God hates divorce, that God wants him/her to forgive and move on even if the other person doesn't change, that s/he must've provoked this bad behaviour in the other and must endure it, that a "wife's duty" is to be obedient to her husband, even if that means taking the beatings, that St Paul says that spouses aren't to refuse each other so God is pleased when s/he allows the other to have their way with him/her even if it is demeaning, against their will, etc.  The family of the "innocent" party will even try to appease the "guilty" party and his/her family in various ways.  All of this is for one reason and one reason only: to protect the family reputation.  Only in the case of sexual infidelity is there more "acceptance" of divorce, and even in this case, it depends on who is guilty: usually (but not always) families will try to preserve the marriage if the guilty party is the man, but even God won't help if the guilty party is the woman.  

In any case, if the problems in a marriage cannot be resolved or at least hidden from public knowledge, and it ends in separation or divorce, speaking about the woman finding protection in her father's house is a joke.  Usually that family has exerted enough pressure on the woman that she is simply trading one abusive situation for another and can never look at them or love them the same again.  The protecting families look at the divorcee as a burden, even as a traitor, someone who has taken a knife and thrust it into the heart of the family to kill it.  In a similar way, this affects men as well (I've tried to be fair because I'm familiar with both cases), but there are cultural factors which make a woman's situation different.  The divorcee has a difficult time "going on with life" because of the various social pressures that exist: either they cannot appear in public without inviting criticism, shame, looks, or they are prohibited from participating in family and social activities, many stop coming to church either because the parish situation is such that they will be made to feel like an outcast or the family prevents them from going so that they can at least participate without the stress.  Pastoral outreach to these people is abysmally lacking: in most case, they are ignored, and when they are not, they are usually told about how God disapproves of them and will not forgive certain things.  In those cases where the clergy are not so bad, the burden will still be on the person to seek out the Church because eventually even the priests will forget about you after they've "done their thing".  

I don't know if Egyptian culture is like this, but mine sadly is like this more often than I'd like to admit in these cases (and most "traditional" cultures have their own variations on this theme).  "Permission to remarry", in such a situation, is less about "canonical permission to have sex" and more about "allowing someone to live" because the alternative is a form of hellish entombment while alive.  

The Church absolutely has a responsibility to these people.  It cannot simply wash its hands and say

...divorce in the sense of permission for remarriage was allowed by Jesus Christ only in one case, and that is adultery. I don't think it's "wrong" to do what Christ said.
 

without having a "plan B" for how to take care of these wounded, hurting people.  Or are we to believe that the Incarnate Logos was so annoyed by the idea of sexual infidelity that he allowed a man to divorce his wife for it (but not necessarily the other way around, if we are sticking closely to the words), but did not bother to leave equally clear instructions for those in abusive situations because he just didn't care if women (or men) were abused in other ways?  

Marriage is about more than sex, and resurrection is about more than physical resuscitation after death.  A Church which places such stock in these things cannot be passive.  It must go out to the lost sheep.  How best to do that can and ought to be discussed, but it cannot be left at "certain options are impossible, we have no idea what to do, get lost".    


*standing ovation*



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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2014, 03:45:15 PM »

A tangent on divorce in America was split off and put here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,58981.0.html


Please keep this current thread on topic.  Thank you.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2014, 05:06:08 PM »

Returning to divorce in Egypt, there is one more point which deserves mention:

In the US (or at least most states?) it seems to be usual that spouses have common property, which is divided upon divorce.

In Egypt, that is not the case. Spouses never own any common propety, either the husband owns something or the wife does. Never both together. Teha apartment usually belongs to the husband, because he is expected to own one before he can get married. That is why in the case of divorce, annulment or separation, he stays there and the wife leaves.

In the case of Muslims, it is mandatory to have a marriage contract. The contract mentions how much the wife gets in case the husband repudiates her. In case she applies for divorce*, AFAIK she usually gets nothing.

*according to Islamic law, men can repudiate, but women can only apply to a court to pronounce a divorce. Whether such a divorce is granted, depends on the judge, but that's another topic.


What I am sure of is that separate property is something that applies to all Egyptian citizens, including Copts. Whether a Christian wife should receive any part of her husband's property upon divorce, I don't know, simply because such cases are extremely rare and I never met anyone who has actually been through that. However, I met several couples who were living separately.
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2014, 08:16:42 PM »

Might it be possible to say, with regard to domestic violence, that divorce is still a sin, but the guilt for said sin lies with the abuser for neglecting their obligations, abusing their power, and forcing the abused party to cut all ties for their own safety?
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2014, 08:28:52 PM »

*standing ovation*


+1

I wonder if Gorazd will actually engage any of it.
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2014, 11:57:58 PM »

Seems to me that better marriage preparation is needed. It wouldn't prevent all cases, but some. An oz of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2014, 01:43:49 AM »

Seems to me that better marriage preparation is needed. It wouldn't prevent all cases, but some. An oz of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I haven't watched the full interview, but in episode 2 of the questions of the people, HH Pope Tawadros does talk about marriage, how he's going to try something, by having in every region of the world a general bishop for the marriage issues, along with two priests, a lawyer, and a psychiatrist to work out the marriage issues of every area.  So perhaps, he's trying to do a multidisciplinary approach in helping resolve every couple's situation.  Whether or not this also means pre-marital counciling, I'm not all entirely sure.
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2014, 09:05:23 AM »

Could you give a link and time for that? I'm curious for more info of h.h.'s views on general bishops.

Seems to me that better marriage preparation is needed. It wouldn't prevent all cases, but some. An oz of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I haven't watched the full interview, but in episode 2 of the questions of the people, HH Pope Tawadros does talk about marriage, how he's going to try something, by having in every region of the world a general bishop for the marriage issues, along with two priests, a lawyer, and a psychiatrist to work out the marriage issues of every area.  So perhaps, he's trying to do a multidisciplinary approach in helping resolve every couple's situation.  Whether or not this also means pre-marital counciling, I'm not all entirely sure.
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2014, 09:44:59 AM »

I'm just thinking this through here, so don't jump on me, but perhaps making divorce extremely difficult to obtain is a good thing.  It causes people to examine themselves more thoroughly if they know there are no "take-backs".  I would think people would also work harder on their marriage if they know that they don't have another option.  Of course, I suppose the reverse could be said as well, that an abusive spouse knows that the other is trapped.  It is a tough call.
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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2014, 09:24:45 PM »

Could you give a link and time for that? I'm curious for more info of h.h.'s views on general bishops.

Seems to me that better marriage preparation is needed. It wouldn't prevent all cases, but some. An oz of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I haven't watched the full interview, but in episode 2 of the questions of the people, HH Pope Tawadros does talk about marriage, how he's going to try something, by having in every region of the world a general bishop for the marriage issues, along with two priests, a lawyer, and a psychiatrist to work out the marriage issues of every area.  So perhaps, he's trying to do a multidisciplinary approach in helping resolve every couple's situation.  Whether or not this also means pre-marital counciling, I'm not all entirely sure.

I listened to that part again, and I have to apologize. He made mention of bishops in 6 parts of the Coptic world (along with 2 priests, a lawyer, and doctor with each bishop). He didn't make mention of general bishops.  Given his recent explosion of ordaining general bishops one wonders though.

http://youtu.be/hM8bb0hpGtI

Around the 35th minute is when there's talk of what the plan is.
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2014, 02:59:59 AM »

I suppose changing one's religion is a good enough reason for divorce if one should know better but denys christ but im not sure. If the person is not abusive I thought one should not divorce
it seems to be what st paul teaches if one has a non believing spouse and he is willing to live in peace do not divorce. But it seems it is one's choice to divorce or not to because that person may try to make one's life unhappy
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2014, 07:50:19 AM »

The present Coptic practice on dealing with this issue certainly needs urgent reform. I know personally women who have been violently abused, to such an extent that the courts have issued restraining orders against their abusers, and who find that the Church excommunicates them and treats them as the offender because they will not return to the abuser.

It is very bad practice indeed and there is no excuse whatsoever. The women I know of and have been contacted by are not in Egypt but in the West.
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2014, 04:19:12 AM »

The present Coptic practice on dealing with this issue certainly needs urgent reform. I know personally women who have been violently abused, to such an extent that the courts have issued restraining orders against their abusers, and who find that the Church excommunicates them and treats them as the offender because they will not return to the abuser.

It is very bad practice indeed and there is no excuse whatsoever. The women I know of and have been contacted by are not in Egypt but in the West.

Now this is more of a cultural issue. The Quran allows for wife beating, and I would argue it happens quite frequently in Egypt, even among Copts. I am certainly glad that Pope Tawadros sees that somthing must be done against domestic violence, but honestly, if the church decided to divorce every Coptic woman who has ever been beaten by her husband, I would how many marriages would be left.

Btw, the traditional Arab understanding is that the father is the dictator at home and what happens inside the house does not concern anyone else, especially not the state. Many Arabs, including Christians, who come to Europe, maintain this way of thinking. That's why they see no contradiction between assimilating to Western culture when they are outside and practising domestic violence at home.

So, finally there are no easy solutions to this issue. Rather, there has to be a real "metanoia", a change of mind.
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2014, 04:52:40 AM »

Any man who beats his wife in the West should be subject to the law of the West and should be forbidden communion himself until he repents and be liable to criminal charges.

I cannot speak for what happens in Egypt, I know that FGM takes place in the Christian community as well, which is appalling. But if any man wants to beat his wife in the West he should face the full force of the law and not be protected by any priest or bishop, or be able to hide behind any cultural argument.
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2014, 04:57:07 AM »

Any man who beats his wife in the West should be subject to the law of the West and should be forbidden communion himself until he repents and be liable to criminal charges.

I cannot speak for what happens in Egypt, I know that FGM takes place in the Christian community as well, which is appalling. But if any man wants to beat his wife in the West he should face the full force of the law and not be protected by any priest or bishop, or be able to hide behind any cultural argument.

Not a word out of place, and every word needing to be said. Bravo!
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2014, 11:22:44 AM »

 
Now this is more of a cultural issue. The Quran allows for wife beating, and I would argue it happens quite frequently in Egypt, even among Copts. 
Btw, the traditional Arab understanding is that the father is the dictator at home and what happens inside the house does not concern anyone else, especially not the state. Many Arabs, including Christians, who come to Europe, maintain this way of thinking. That's why they see no contradiction between assimilating to Western culture when they are outside and practising domestic violence at home.
There is a mix up between Coptic culture and Arabic / Muslims culture in the above post. Copts are not Arab. While Arabic culture has influenced the Copts over the years, its influence is (or was) minimal when it came to domestic affairs. What protected the Copts from a full integration into the Islamic Arabic culture is the sound understanding of theology and the Church rites.

The Copts are the heirs of the ancient Egyptian culture. The status of women at home can be guessed from the statues that shows the man and women of the same height and from the surviving papyrus indicating an elevated status of women at home and in the society.

The same continued through the Coptic era and into the Islamic era. The reason for the modern domestic troubles, which still has to be quantified so it is not exaggerated as a phenomena, is the the lack of proper ecclesiology, of which the marriage is an integral part. Taking courses before marriage is a good idea, but the curriculum of these courses is currently based on Freudian psychology and modern marriage consultation "sciences".

With such secular courses, and with our bishops and priests enrolling in secular academic degree programs to become secular marriage advisors, it is no surprise we end up like any other secular families with high divorce rates.

This is the biggest cultural influence, not the arabic culture. 
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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2014, 09:50:51 PM »

There is a mix up between Coptic culture and Arabic / Muslims culture in the above post. Copts are not Arab. While Arabic culture has influenced the Copts over the years, its influence is (or was) minimal when it came to domestic affairs. What protected the Copts from a full integration into the Islamic Arabic culture is the sound understanding of theology and the Church rites.
Copts nowadays are culturally Arab for all practical purposes. Only in liturgical rites, Copts have preserved more from ancient Egyptians than Muslim Egyptians did. I am saying this as a person who has lived in Egypt.

And in Egypt, Sharia law is being applied to Christians in all matters which are not governed by canon law. And that does include heritage or the right of the husband to decide whether his wife may leave the house.

But if any man wants to beat his wife in the West he should face the full force of the law and not be protected by any priest or bishop, or be able to hide behind any cultural argument.
I agree. But there is one problem: if Sharia law can be applied to Muslims in the UK, shouldnt Coptic immigrants also have the right to apply Egyptian law to themselves?
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« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2014, 10:01:25 PM »

^This is why no law in the UK should be implemented besides the British civil law. When you allow Muslims to apply their own law instead of that of the country's, it jeopardizes the state's sovereignty and control over its citizens.
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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2014, 10:25:06 PM »

the British civil law.
There is no such thing. The UK has common law.
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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2014, 11:01:21 PM »

the British civil law.
There is no such thing. The UK has common law.
Oh well, you know what I mean. Wink
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« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2014, 06:56:18 AM »

the British civil law.
There is no such thing. The UK has common law.

Wrong again. The UK, and nations whose legal system is based on the British, has both common law and statute law. Statute law generally trumps common law.
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« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2014, 11:33:27 AM »

Quote
Copts nowadays are culturally Arab for all practical purposes. Only in liturgical rites, Copts have preserved more from ancient Egyptians than Muslim Egyptians did. I am saying this as a person who has lived in Egypt.

I acknowledge that Copts are influenced by the Arabic culture in terms of language, and this is a big element in any culture, but as a Copt and an Egyptian, who lived in Egypt all his teen years and till his mid 20's, I think this influence is overestimated.

Egyptians have been religious since the beginning of time. Their ancient Egyptian civilization is a religious one. Religion is the most dominant factor for Egyptians, and it will continue like this forever. Arabic culture is very much the Islamic culture, and it did not infiltrate the Coptic culture past the language aspect.

To attribute the domestic problems to the Muslim culture does not seem to be a good assessment. It is mostly the weak Coptic culture, and it explains the increased share of domestic problems among the Copts outside of Egypt. There is no Arabic culture there and it is still a big problem.

Quote
I agree. But there is one problem: if Sharia law can be applied to Muslims in the UK, shouldn't Coptic immigrants also have the right to apply Egyptian law to themselves?

Is there an intention to apply the Sharia laws to Muslims in the UK?
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« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2014, 12:14:13 PM »

As someone who has lived in Egypt as well, and recently been there, Copts are Arabs in culture, not just in language, whether Copts admit it or not.  That is unless one says that the Egyptian Muslims are really Coptic in culture, that's a whole different academic discussion in and of itself.  Every Arab country has a different culture.  The difference between Copts and Muslims is mostly religion and the practices associated with it.  Culture-wise, there is practically no difference.  I can attest to that.  It's not just the language, but the food, the music, the economics, and even family morality.

The only ones with a completely different culture are Islamists who isolate themselves from those who they consider infidels.
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