Author Topic: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?  (Read 10825 times)

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Offline Nephi

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2014, 10:07:44 PM »
^I would be careful not to make a disconnect between the Old and New. I believe, as an Orthodox priest-professor explained to me better than I can repeat,  that Christ fulfilled all of the Torah,  the Sabbath,  and the Feasts perfectly as they are in their highest and truest sense (i.e. not as the Pharisees understood, for example his comments against hating and an eye for eye). Importantly, as Christians baptized into the body of Christ we participate in all of his salvific acts. Just as we participate in his death and resurrection and receive the changes effected in human nature as our own, so we also participate in his perfect fulfillment of the Sabbath and the Torah in their most true sense. In other words, in Christ we have fulfilled and obeyed the Torah and God's commandments and his Sabbath, because it was otherwise impossible for anyone but Jesus to do so perfectly.

There's a bit more that ties it into the "now but not-yet" stuff as well.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2014, 10:26:18 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.

PtA, I can't argue all day, but the link I posted should give you more than a "run".
An essay published by an arm of one of the biggest modern-day opponents of Sunday worship hardly passes muster for good, objective scholarship.

But you only have one source, and it is contested - placed at the very end of Justin Martyr's work.
We have only one source? I guess we do. The Tradition of the Church is our source, the one source to which all others bear witness. We do, however, have a number of sources that bear witness to the place of Sunday worship in Tradition even as early as the 1st and 2nd centuries, as TheTrisagion so adroitly points out.

The document tears it apart.
I suppose you will believe it does. Considering its source, I'm not so convinced.

Here's 63 reasons to keep the Sabbath.
http://messianicpublications.com/robert-roy/reasons-to-keep-the-7th-day/

EDIT - AND EVERY reason is backed with scripture.  
Even the devil backed his temptations of Christ with scripture.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:45:55 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2014, 10:34:57 PM »
Sure, I believe a baptism washed away his "pagan nonsense" from the past.  But the arguments stands.  His pagan nonsense CHANGED the Sabbath day and the church accepted it.  

Does the Church not refer to Saturday as the Sabbath even to this day? We certainly do in Russian.

It's Western Sabbatarian (particularly SDA) nonsense that presupposes 1) Roman Catholicism was what quickly developed after the Great Apostasy, 2) that Papal Rome dominated the entire Imperial Church, and 3) the Church was completely in cahoots with the Roman Empire. As such, since Roman Catholicism does believe that the solemnity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, you end up with these sorts of comments that conveniently ignore the rest of Christianity.

This particularly striking (and clearly inaccurate) description from Ellen White's Great Controversy (pg. 53) demonstrates what I mean:

Quote
In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. (See Appendix.) The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually led to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment.

The archdeceiver had not completed his work. He was resolved to gather the Christian world under his banner and to exercise his power through his vicegerent, the proud pontiff who claimed to be the representative of Christ. Through half-converted pagans, ambitious prelates, and world-loving churchmen he accomplished his purpose. Vast councils were held from time to time, in which the dignitaries of the church were convened from all the world. In nearly every council the Sabbath which God had instituted was pressed down a little lower, while the Sunday was correspondingly exalted. Thus the pagan festival came finally to be honored as a divine institution, while the Bible Sabbath was pronounced a relic of Judaism, and its observers were declared to be accursed.

So if you have those such as Polycarp worshipping on the Sabbath, and the link I provided where many times the Sabbath was noted in the NT, then you have to analyze what day you worship on.
So Polycarp worshiped on the Sabbath. He probably also worshiped on the Lord's Day and every day in between.

Here:
QUOTE:
The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. It begins with an Edict of Constantine, the first Christian emperor, who forbade judges to sit and townspeople to work on Sunday. He made an exception in favour of agriculture. The breaking of the law of Sunday rest was punished by the Anglo-Saxon legislation in England like other crimes and misdemeanours.
END QUOTE:
SOURCE: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14335a.htm

His edict grew into a larger vererable day of the sun "sabbath".
From the RC church itself.
So you can cherry pick from the New Advent web site whatever proof suits your fancy. Doesn't prove anything to me.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:35:17 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2014, 10:44:55 PM »
Yeshua is one of the only members here who still keeps this place interesting. Keep up the good work!

I for one agree with him.
On what? That we should be reluctant to enter into reunion with Rome? Then you also agree with most of us, who argue that there are plenty of reasons to resist reunion with Rome at this time.

I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:57:56 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2014, 10:55:44 PM »
^I would be careful not to make a disconnect between the Old and New. I believe, as an Orthodox priest-professor explained to me better than I can repeat,  that Christ fulfilled all of the Torah,  the Sabbath,  and the Feasts perfectly as they are in their highest and truest sense (i.e. not as the Pharisees understood, for example his comments against hating and an eye for eye). Importantly, as Christians baptized into the body of Christ we participate in all of his salvific acts. Just as we participate in his death and resurrection and receive the changes effected in human nature as our own, so we also participate in his perfect fulfillment of the Sabbath and the Torah in their most true sense. In other words, in Christ we have fulfilled and obeyed the Torah and God's commandments and his Sabbath, because it was otherwise impossible for anyone but Jesus to do so perfectly.

There's a bit more that ties it into the "now but not-yet" stuff as well.
I hope I did not give the impression of a disconnect.  My emphasis was intended to be that Christ was the fulfillment of the Law. There is no Sabbath Day now because Christ is our Sabbath just like there is no animal sacrifice because Christ fulfilled it. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was reconciled through Christ. The obligations given to the Jews were for the preservation of the oracles of God. Those oracles and prophesies have been fulfilled.  At the same time, however, we also need to recognize that the Law was not given to all, it was given to the Jews. It is just as wrong to try and force modern day Christians to follow the Law as it would be to force gentiles before Christ's coming to follow the Law.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2014, 11:10:39 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2014, 11:13:50 PM »
Jesus prayed for "them" the people. 

Prove it from Scripture.  Prove that Jesus prayed for "the people", and prove "which people" they were. 

Quote
The RCC is an institution.  We do not have to "forgive" an institution, it is not a human.

Where does it say that in Scripture? 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2014, 11:30:10 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

LOL!!!
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #143 on: June 15, 2014, 11:37:26 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 

I need to stop reading this thread.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #144 on: June 15, 2014, 11:41:10 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 

I need to stop reading this thread.

Tell the truth: Peter's comment drove you over the edge. 
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

...if you feel Mor really is in spiritual danger, pray the Jesus prayer for him.   :police:

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2014, 11:51:39 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 

I need to stop reading this thread.

Tell the truth: Peter's comment drove you over the edge. 
;D
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2014, 04:28:59 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments? 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2014, 11:14:07 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments?  
Why does this thread have to end here? Then again, maybe yesh can let it end here so we don't have to put up with his nonsense. ;) But he probably won't. :(
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:14:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2014, 11:15:59 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments?  
Why does this thread have to end here? Then again, maybe yesh can let it end here so we don't have to put up with his nonsense. ;) But he probably won't. :(

Does it bother some folks to stay on topic?  Why do we morph into this stuff?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #149 on: June 17, 2014, 11:17:27 AM »
Because we get bored with the original topic. Internet forums are pretty much like any conversation. They bounce all around and go in directions you don't really expect.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2014, 11:23:03 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments?  
Why does this thread have to end here? Then again, maybe yesh can let it end here so we don't have to put up with his nonsense. ;) But he probably won't. :(

Does it bother some folks to stay on topic?  Why do we morph into this stuff?
Because people like to drive a thread further off topic by complaining about how it's gone off topic. ;) If you really want to get this thread back on topic, all you have to do is engage one of the many points yesh has posted on this thread. It's really not that hard.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:27:36 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #151 on: June 17, 2014, 11:41:17 AM »
I'll add something about my ecumenistic outlook, as something of a clarification. I am fully in favor of ecumenism, dialogue, lovey dovey meetings, flowery exchanges about love, etc. Part of the reason is what I mentioned in this post:

When a couple separate and there are problems to work through, the first step is often simply meeting in friendly, no pressure situations. Forcing things, making demands, giving ultimatums, etc. can be counter-productive until certain other things are established: good will, sincerity, civilty, compassion, readiness to understand and cooperate, etc. The fractures in the relationship cannot be fixed until mutual respect, trust, and hope have been reestablished.

I know some people think that the Church shouldn't be influenced in its methods or approach by the culture or context it finds itself in. I disagree. I think history shows this to be false as well. Scripture says to be "as wise as serpents and innocent as doves," and that sometimes we must "become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." This means that there are times when the situation we find ourselves in requires us to do things that haven't been done, and which some might say shouldn't be done, but which we must do so as to fulfill the great commission and reach the world  (as God guides).

An example. In the fourth century the Orthodox were fighting a battle against Arianism, and really not doing so well. One step that was taken to gain an upper hand was that St. Basil consecrated everyone and their brother bishops, placing them in places which had no justifiable need for a bishop. Both St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologian were made such bishops of backwater towns, and both were quite annoyed. It must have also seemed like little more than a power grab to some, multiplying bishops in this way. Was not Nicene theology strong enough to stand on its own? Were such political/administrative tactics really necessary? How worldly! But yet, such a tactic was necessary and beneficial. Perhaps not the best case scenario, perhaps not what we'd want in a perfect world, but St. Basil and others worked with the situation they found themselves in in the best way they could.*

Now regarding ecumenism, I am fully in favor of it, even willingly excusing some of its excesses (though I certainly have limits and reservations). However, this does not mean that I see the end result of all this touchy feely ecumenism being an unthinking, uncritical, and easy slide into communion. I fully agree that the differences--and I think there are quite difficult ones--must be resolved before there can be any real talk of making reconciliation a reality. And these differences cannot be resolved by letting each side believe as it wants when talking among their own group, but be over-accommodating and fudging the truth and beating around the bush when talking to the other group. Until things like papal infallibility and papal supremacy are resolved to the satisfaction of all the local Churches, in agreement with each other, there can be no talk of intercommunion and such.

Nonetheless, we live in ecumenically-toned times, especially in the west. We live in times when being polemical and harsh and rigid is understood--or sometimes misunderstood--as being unloving, unkind, etc. Well so be it. The Church can condescend to speak to the culture on its own terms. There can be no compromise of truth, but there can be condescension to weakness (and the Orthodox are included in having this weakness). "For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." For moderns the unknown God is tolerance, gentleness, irenic communication, etc. Well that is where we will start then, and eventually everyone can be brought to the fullness of the truth, at the pace that such is possible, by God's grace and our cooperation.



*EDIT--As another example from St. Basil, he took resources and money from an Arian emperor to help his charitable works (hospital, etc.)  This was the same emperor that was traveling around the empire deposing/eliminating Nicene bishops. Sometimes we must do what is necessary for the greater good.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:51:10 AM by Justin Kissel »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2014, 12:28:38 AM »
The greater good is indeed much of what the Church is about, and Rome has not had a very good track record as shepherd. If they have been returning in spirit to the spirit of the ancient Fathers, of joining in the works of God who alone loves mankind, then I think ecumenism could be a blessed goal.
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