Author Topic: What Would You Do in this case...?  (Read 1407 times)

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Raylight

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What Would You Do in this case...?
« on: June 15, 2014, 09:00:56 PM »
English is not my native language, sorry for the misspellings.

This question is for all, we all are members of Churches/Denominations. And we all are different and sometimes very very different. But here I'm giving an example and it will be about me as Catholic, the example is to explain what I'm talking about.

I'm Catholic, there are a billion Catholic worldwide, there are the good and there are the bad, there are the tolerant and there are the intolerant, there are the progressive and there are the reactionary...etc.

As Catholic, I'm sure of the beliefs of the Catholic Church ( even though I may disagree on few small details ). but in the past whatever the Church I followed, as soon as there is in the news a report about members of that Church doing something really bad and violent somewhere, or a leader in the Church says or does something I consider it to be intolerant and sometimes even hateful. So I get this idea in the back of my head saying to me " Easy, just leave the Church, why would you be in the same group as those racists and violent people ?! ".

That is not rational thinking, but I think it is something in my nature, where I put aside all the solid true beliefs and just focus on that person/s and his/her/their actions.

I hope by now you understood what I mean.

So what would you do to not let the negative, violent, hateful, and racist actions of members of the same Church, effect your loyalty and trust in the Church ?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2014, 09:40:16 PM »
So what would you do to not let the negative, violent, hateful, and racist actions of members of the same Church, effect your loyalty and trust in the Church ?


I would think about why they let me stick around rather than chasing me out. 
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2014, 10:25:25 PM »
What's the question?
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Regnare

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:09 PM »
So I get this idea in the back of my head saying to me " Easy, just leave the Church, why would you be in the same group as those racists and violent people ?! ".
Those people are in a group much bigger than the Church. It's called "humanity". No matter what groups you affiliate yourself with, you will never get away from them. All you can do is pray for them.
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust." --Psalm 91: 1-2

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2014, 11:23:57 PM »
For me it would depend on if the actions were done in the name of the church or approved by the body of the church.  Individual actions are individual and everybody is a sinner.  You can't judge an entire church off 1 single member or action, unless the church approves of that action.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 05:34:53 AM »
Quote
, or a leader in the Church says or does something I consider it to be intolerant and sometimes even hateful
Please give just one documented or credibile example of this. I have never heard one RC priest utter a word that could be construed as "hateful" or intolerant in anyway. If anything, most bend over backwards to be politically correct these days.

There are a few trad priests that still openly strongly support the doctrines and dogmas of the Church, if you translate this as "
hatred" like some of the more liberal minded priests and nuns in the Norvus Ordo, then maybe you have been brainwashed like them as well. You need to investigate what true traditional Catholicism is really all about.

Quote
As Catholic, I'm sure of the beliefs of the Catholic Church ( even though I may disagree on few small details ).
Like what "details" if you don't mind me asking? But the Church is not a democracy, when a pope speaks ex cathedra you can't "disagree" and still consider yourself Catholic. But if he doesn't, it's mere opinion and open to speculation.

Quote
So what would you do to not let the negative, violent, hateful, and racist actions of members of the same Church, effect your loyalty and trust in the Church ?
Again, it's probably your skewed defintion of these terms, I have never encountered anything like what you describe and i've been a cradle Catholic for a long time. But sometimes I ask myself the same question about sodomites and pedophiles , especially in the priesthood. But the way I look at it, the Church is a family, just because you have sinners in your family, they're still your family. Are you going to leave your family for a few rotten apples? No, you just might not associate with them until they change their ways. Or stop living an anti-Catholic and unrepentent lifestyle or state in life.

But in the end it's them not the Church, the Church never changes, if it does, it ceases being the Church.

Then get out.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2014, 06:16:25 AM »
For me it would depend on if the actions were done in the name of the church or approved by the body of the church.  Individual actions are individual and everybody is a sinner.  You can't judge an entire church off 1 single member or action, unless the church approves of that action.

Some of them are done by the name of the Church, however, the Church didn't approve such thing.

Thank you for the help  :)

Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2014, 06:18:34 AM »
So I get this idea in the back of my head saying to me " Easy, just leave the Church, why would you be in the same group as those racists and violent people ?! ".
Those people are in a group much bigger than the Church. It's called "humanity". No matter what groups you affiliate yourself with, you will never get away from them. All you can do is pray for them.

Oh the humanity  :'(

Thank you for the help Regnare.

Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2014, 06:20:03 AM »
What's the question?

The question is : What would you do if group of people in you Church commit violent acts or hateful statements toward other people, would you remain a member of the Church or would you leave it or some other thing ?

Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2014, 06:25:54 AM »
So what would you do to not let the negative, violent, hateful, and racist actions of members of the same Church, effect your loyalty and trust in the Church ?


I would think about why they let me stick around rather than chasing me out. 

Good question, but maybe because I'm still a little baby in Catholicism, so when I get to the level of teenager, I will need little smack from time to time  :D

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2014, 07:16:49 AM »
I try to remember the essence and to remeber why I am here. It helps.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 08:20:17 AM »
The Roman Church is systematically and maliciously slandered coming from all quarters. Every single mistake minority groups or even hierarchs commit claiming to be on her behalf is immediatelly generalized with the sheer evil objective of making her look malignat. It was the main leading institution through which the West grew from a bunch of barbaric tribes into a new civilization in the world. Thanks to the Roman Church. the Christian values of fairness, mercy and freedom of individual conscience entered the social and cultural arena for the first time without hindrances. Thanks to the Roman Church science as we know it today came to exist, as well as the limitations over heads of state and government and wealth through free-market (meaning efficiently regulated, that is, maximum effect to minimum regulations; not unregulated anarchocapitalism), starting not in Protestant German states, but in Roman Venice and developed ideologically and theologically through the Spanish Tomists.

Said that, much of Rome's impressive track record is due to its secularization of Christian spirituallity. In and with Rome, the Church ceases to be the Body of Christ to become a civilizational institution. That is so big, that it is easy to confuse it with the real theanthropic Body of Christ. Nevertheless, it is not so. That is so much true that quite often Romans bring up the valid and much worthy civilizational victories as proof or at least evidence that it is the true church. That shows that deep down, they believe that Jesus came to create a kingdom of this world, at least as part of His greater plan of salvation. But that is just a kind of "Geopolitical Prosperity Theology" which is just as wrong a ordinary Prosperity Theology. The Church learned that geopolitical success is not necessarily a sign of being the Church when Rome fell in th 5th century and under many cases of submission later on. Rome itself never got the lesson.

That is the tragedy of it all: Rome gained the world, but lost its soul.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 08:27:54 AM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 08:28:41 AM »
The Roman Church is systematically and maliciously slandered coming from all quarters. Every single mistake minority groups or even hierarchs commit claiming to be on her behalf is immediatelly generalized with the sheer evil objective of making her look malignat. It was the main leading institution through which the West grew from a bunch of barbaric tribes into a new civilization in the world. Thanks to the Roman Church. the Christian values of fairness, mercy and freedom of individual conscience entered the social and cultural arena for the first time without hindrances. Thanks to the Roman Church science as we know it today came to exist, as well as the limitations over heads of state and government and wealth through free-market (meaning efficiently regulated, that is, maximum effect to minimum regulations; not unregulated anarchocapitalism), starting not in Protestant German states, but in Roman Venice and developed ideologically and theologically through the Spanish Tomists.

Said that, much of Rome's impressive track record is due to its secularization of Christian spirituallity. In and with Rome, the Church ceases to be the Body of Christ to become a civilizational institution. That is so big, that it is easy to confuse it with the real theanthropic Body of Christ. Nevertheless, it is not so. That is the tragedy of it all: Rome gained the world, but lost its soul.

Powerful words. I will actually keep reading them from time to time so I could always remind myself of the good the Church did for the world :)

Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2014, 08:30:56 AM »
I try to remember the essence and to remeber why I am here. It helps.

Good point. But sometimes as I said above, the anger blind the people from seeing anything good in the person or the institution.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2014, 11:17:53 AM »

You need to separate the Church from her followers.  People are not perfect, even clergy...and will sin.  It is human nature.  What you should look at is how these sins are handled.  Do the individuals repent and try again?

Think of Sodom and Gomorrah - scary thought, I know.  However, God promised to not destroy the cities if only 10 worthy people were found to be living there.

The Church is the same, only stronger.  It can be surrounded by nastiness and sin, it can even be infiltrated with sin, however, those "ten" individuals will shine brightly and will save that Church and humanity through it.

If God is willing to "work with it", why aren't you?

HOWEVER, if the leaders of the Church start preaching against the teachings of Christ, then it is time to leave.


 
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Alexander_Kuzmin

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 12:58:48 PM »
Good point. But sometimes as I said above, the anger blind the people from seeing anything good in the person or the institution.

But it is very important that the anger does not blind me, not the other people. So, I just need to handle my anger, and people and institutions will become not so bad!  :) :)

Offline Georgii

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 01:52:18 PM »
Some secularists might agree that if nothing else churches (lower case) take the worst sickos off the streets and put them in one place for an hour each week.
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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 02:02:53 PM »
What's the question?

The question is : What would you do if group of people in you Church commit violent acts or hateful statements toward other people, would you remain a member of the Church or would you leave it or some other thing ?

I don't know what I would do, but the right thing to do would be to stand between the haters and the hated and take the hit.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 02:03:36 PM by Georgii »
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Raylight

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Re: What Would You Do in this case...?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 05:03:08 PM »
LizaSymonenko , Alexander_Kuzmin , Georgii . Thank you guys, your replies really helped.  :)