Author Topic: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?  (Read 11922 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« on: June 10, 2014, 02:27:52 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2014, 02:34:26 PM »
I'd rather have RCs than Anabaptists.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 02:43:15 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
Why do you insist on living so far in the past, Yesh?
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 02:58:51 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
Why do you insist on living so far in the past, Yesh?

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 03:07:33 PM »
What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 03:07:48 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 03:17:11 PM »
What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Probably the movie, History of the World, Part 2...as related by Mel Brooks...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZegQYgygdw&feature=kp

Offline Alpo

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2014, 03:23:37 PM »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2014, 03:30:51 PM »
agitprop

I didn't know that this is an English word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOPHimXYf4o

Yeah, I learned about it years ago in college in the early 1970's....

The US Holocaust Museum in Washington had a marvelous and chilling exhibition about Agitprop , the National Socialists, Bolsheviks and links to modern political campaigning and what modern 'civil' political campaigns learned from the likes of the Germans and Soviets...not so crude but effective...

Offline WPM

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 03:38:32 PM »
What's Ecumenism? ... 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 03:39:46 PM by WPM »
For questions about the history of the Lutheran faith see the Book of Concord available from Pastor's office.

Formula of Concord 1577

A restatement of some teachings in the Augsburg Confession over which Lutherans had become divided. The Solid Declaration is the unabridged version. The Epitome is an abridged version intended for congregations to study. Over 8,100 pastors and theologians signed it, as well as over 50 government leaders.



WELS/ELCA/LCMS Church Pastor's Word

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 04:05:46 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2014, 04:23:48 PM »
What's Ecumenism? ... 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/ecumenism?q=ecumenism

ecumenism
Syllabification: ec·u·me·nism
Pronunciation: /ˈekyəməˌnizəm, eˈkyo͝omə-
 
/
noun

    The principle or aim of promoting unity among the world’s Christian churches.
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Offline Joha

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2014, 04:37:52 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2014, 05:04:45 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:06:01 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 05:09:11 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:12:14 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 07:05:13 PM »

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
No fair!  I was going to post that after reading his post and then I saw you stole it.  >:(  :laugh:
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2014, 07:34:59 PM »

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
No fair!  I was going to post that after reading his post and then I saw you stole it.  >:(  :laugh:
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2014, 10:27:24 PM »
What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2014, 10:29:46 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2014, 10:32:58 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2014, 10:35:22 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.

Yeah. I know what it's about, and it's all historically unfounded and a giant propaganda piece.

What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.

Yeah, they are. And yes, the more orthodox Protestants and Romans killed them, because they were really out of line.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2014, 10:37:13 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

You should add "Donatist" to your jumbled faith.   :P
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2014, 10:40:48 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2014, 10:42:44 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.
The Anabaptists were just as much a part of the 16th-century protest movement against the Roman church as were the Lutherans and the Calvinists. That makes them Protestant.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2014, 10:45:24 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.

Yeah. I know what it's about, and it's all historically unfounded and a giant propaganda piece.

What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.

Yeah, they are. And yes, the more orthodox Protestants and Romans killed them, because they were really out of line.

A propaganda piece... Awkward, as it is loaded with "Eastern Orthodox" martyrs too.  Ah well.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2014, 10:46:47 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

If they don't have apostolic succession, it has nothing to do with that. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume that they do and let's assume that the account that you posted from Martyr's Mirror is accurate. We know God has a track record of using sinful people for His purposes (Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc. etc.), so why would it be so hard to believe that a group of just such sinful people could make up His Church?

And PS- God directly caused and also ordered the killing of men, women, and children plenty of times in the OT. I feel the need to point that out.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2014, 10:47:24 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
I live in an area that has a pretty high anabaptist population. Lancaster County, PA is right next to us and has many Amish and Mennonite communities.  I have a lot of respect for the anabaptists. Throughout history, they have done a very good job of holding to their ideals in the face of persecution. I disagree with others who say they are protestants. They are/were not protestants, but did arrive on the scene at the same time and thrived because of all the religious confusion that was going on at the time. All that being said, I strongly disagree with their theology.  They hold to a solo scriptura mentality and take it to lengths that even Luther and Calvin would never have considered. They face the same legitimacy issues that protestants face.  They appeared on the scene 1500 years after the time of Christ espousing teachings that Christians for 1500 years never held to and their typical response to that problem is a Landmarkian response of attempting to find scattered groups here and there throughout history that held some similar beliefs to theirs. It is bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2014, 10:49:05 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 10:49:44 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.

Yeah. I know what it's about, and it's all historically unfounded and a giant propaganda piece.

What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.

Yeah, they are. And yes, the more orthodox Protestants and Romans killed them, because they were really out of line.

A propaganda piece... Awkward, as it is loaded with "Eastern Orthodox" martyrs too.  Ah well.

I don't know how that's relevant to me, I am not Eastern Orthodox. I know propaganda when I see it.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 10:57:42 PM »
If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

By this logic, you should reject Jesus, a loser with a bad family.  Look at his family tree.  Full of bad fruits. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 10:58:29 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
I live in an area that has a pretty high anabaptist population. Lancaster County, PA is right next to us and has many Amish and Mennonite communities.  I have a lot of respect for the anabaptists. Throughout history, they have done a very good job of holding to their ideals in the face of persecution. I disagree with others who say they are protestants. They are/were not protestants, but did arrive on the scene at the same time and thrived because of all the religious confusion that was going on at the time. All that being said, I strongly disagree with their theology.  They hold to a solo scriptura mentality and take it to lengths that even Luther and Calvin would never have considered. They face the same legitimacy issues that protestants face.  They appeared on the scene 1500 years after the time of Christ espousing teachings that Christians for 1500 years never held to and their typical response to that problem is a Landmarkian response of attempting to find scattered groups here and there throughout history that held some similar beliefs to theirs. It is bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people.

The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

However, despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings, they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.  They are not perfect, and everybody has problems.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2014, 10:59:19 PM »
If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

By this logic, you should reject Jesus, a loser with a bad family.  Look at his family tree.  Full of bad fruits. 

Like YHWH?
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2014, 11:04:15 PM »
If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

By this logic, you should reject Jesus, a loser with a bad family.  Look at his family tree.  Full of bad fruits. 

Like YHWH?

YHWH never appears in any of the canonical genealogies given in the Gospels.  Judah who slept with his daughter-in-law, David who was an adulterer, liar, and a murderer, Solomon with all the wives and the idol worship, etc., etc. all feature prominently, however.   
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2014, 11:07:43 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
I live in an area that has a pretty high anabaptist population. Lancaster County, PA is right next to us and has many Amish and Mennonite communities.  I have a lot of respect for the anabaptists. Throughout history, they have done a very good job of holding to their ideals in the face of persecution. I disagree with others who say they are protestants. They are/were not protestants, but did arrive on the scene at the same time and thrived because of all the religious confusion that was going on at the time. All that being said, I strongly disagree with their theology.  They hold to a solo scriptura mentality and take it to lengths that even Luther and Calvin would never have considered. They face the same legitimacy issues that protestants face.  They appeared on the scene 1500 years after the time of Christ espousing teachings that Christians for 1500 years never held to and their typical response to that problem is a Landmarkian response of attempting to find scattered groups here and there throughout history that held some similar beliefs to theirs. It is bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people.

The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

However, despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings, they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.  They are not perfect, and everybody has problems.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2014, 11:13:03 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

I believe that the apostolic succession is unbroken by the sins of men. If it could be broken by such a mortal thing, it wouldn't be legitimate.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2014, 12:00:56 AM »
[
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.

You forgot 'fascination with reproduction, making sure women don't get all uppity, or uncover themselves.'

honestly, consider Yesh's obsession with the tiniest mote of lust causing anything......its a very good thing he promoteslarge families, with the lack of control in this area....
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:01:22 AM by DeniseDenise »
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2014, 12:08:20 AM »
[
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.

You forgot 'fascination with reproduction, making sure women don't get all uppity, or uncover themselves.'

honestly, consider Yesh's obsession with the tiniest mote of lust causing anything......its a very good thing he promotes large families, with the lack of control in this area....


Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2014, 12:10:24 AM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.
They deposed and excommunicated themselves for other offenses long before they set up the Inquisition. So why do you focus on the Inquisition? The truth be told, we Orthodox have not maintained a very clean record when it comes to how we've treated the heretics within our midst (e.g., the pogroms against the Jews, the Nikonian persecution of the Old Believers, etc.), so I would think it rather hypocritical for us to focus on the ugliness of the Roman inquisitions as you're trying to convince us to do.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.
Yes, it is, but are you without sin yourself?

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.
As I said, the Orthodox have done similar things, so who are we to cast stones at the Catholics for their inquisitions?

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.
Not when we're guilty of the same.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
Yes, I have my reasons.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2014, 05:22:10 AM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:22:23 AM by Cyrillic »

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2014, 07:54:14 AM »
Quote
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)
You dont need to back it up. We all believe that you are convinced that is what the early writings are, unfortunately history didn't start in 1521 so.......

Quote
However, despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings, they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath
Insert the mark of the beast talk here....the people leading this charge about St. Justin are 7th day adventists (Andrews University IIRC)...not exactly the most unbiased of folks on this matter, which is why that study has yet to be accepted by any research university.

Quote
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values
I do too...they're called American Muslims. Big deal. Big families don't equal big spirituality.

PP

« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:55:25 AM by primuspilus »
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2014, 10:56:27 AM »
Quote
Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?

By all means!

Well, perhaps not all means, but "by many and varied means!" is not currently an idiom for the eager expression of approval, so I'll stick with the first one.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2014, 11:13:59 AM »
Quote
Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?

By all means!

Well, perhaps not all means, but "by many and varied means!" is not currently an idiom for the eager expression of approval, so I'll stick with the first one.

+1  It beats killing each other or misrepresenting what each other does or does not believe at its core  - which both sides have done a great deal of over the many centuries, pre and post schism.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2014, 11:32:59 AM »
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2014, 12:29:30 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
Why do you insist on living so far in the past, Yesh?

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

You win the thread.  Game over, guys.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:45:13 PM by Didyma »
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Offline Didyma

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2014, 12:44:42 PM »
Beyond forgiveness of past and repented-of transgressions (allegations of which come form a dubious source, in this case), there's also the fact that if the Roman Church were to be received into the Orthodox Catholic Church they would necessarily drop many canons, including this one (assuming it still exists, if it ever did).  Your problem here seems to disappear in the hypothetical situation. 
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2014, 04:15:29 PM »
Beyond forgiveness of past and repented-of transgressions (allegations of which come form a dubious source, in this case), there's also the fact that if the Roman Church were to be received into the Orthodox Catholic Church they would necessarily drop many canons, including this one (assuming it still exists, if it ever did).  Your problem here seems to disappear in the hypothetical situation. 

Quite right, as the Orthodox would never accept a union with the RCC as she currently stands and teaches...so there is a whole lot of hand wringing over little in these regards. Talking through what appear to be differences to see if they truly are differences on many issues has been helpful, but to counteract centuries of mistrust and mutual artful polemic and vitriol is a real challenge.  And then there is always the Papacy, the papacy, the pa.......

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2014, 05:59:19 PM »
Well being tortured might accomplish more than debating some protestants.

Thank you.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2014, 10:27:15 PM »
Well being tortured might accomplish more than debating some protestants.



or some fellow Orthodox!  (not you!)   ;)

Offline Nicene

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2014, 04:06:14 AM »
Well being tortured might accomplish more than debating some protestants.



or some fellow Orthodox!  (not you!)   ;)

I'm sure some would rather have hot iron than discuss with me.
Thank you.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2014, 01:19:27 AM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 01:19:47 AM by Hawkeye »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2014, 11:41:29 AM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

If they don't have apostolic succession, it has nothing to do with that. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume that they do and let's assume that the account that you posted from Martyr's Mirror is accurate. We know God has a track record of using sinful people for His purposes (Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc. etc.), so why would it be so hard to believe that a group of just such sinful people could make up His Church?

And PS- God directly caused and also ordered the killing of men, women, and children plenty of times in the OT. I feel the need to point that out.

Did God order his followers killed in the OT?  Did God order them tortured?  Did people pray over their torture devices to God to torture his own people?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2014, 11:42:54 AM »
[
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.

You forgot 'fascination with reproduction, making sure women don't get all uppity, or uncover themselves.'

honestly, consider Yesh's obsession with the tiniest mote of lust causing anything......its a very good thing he promoteslarge families, with the lack of control in this area....

Then consider your saints had the same issue.  Because in that thread, I posted quote after quote from them.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2014, 11:45:35 AM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.
They deposed and excommunicated themselves for other offenses long before they set up the Inquisition. So why do you focus on the Inquisition? The truth be told, we Orthodox have not maintained a very clean record when it comes to how we've treated the heretics within our midst (e.g., the pogroms against the Jews, the Nikonian persecution of the Old Believers, etc.), so I would think it rather hypocritical for us to focus on the ugliness of the Roman inquisitions as you're trying to convince us to do.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.
Yes, it is, but are you without sin yourself?

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.
As I said, the Orthodox have done similar things, so who are we to cast stones at the Catholics for their inquisitions?

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.
Not when we're guilty of the same.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
Yes, I have my reasons.

The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2014, 11:46:25 AM »
Did God order his followers killed in the OT?  Did God order them tortured?  Did people pray over their torture devices to God to torture his own people?

Yes.  Or is there anyone or anything anywhere in creation that is not God's?  

I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2014, 11:47:28 AM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin? 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #55 on: June 13, 2014, 11:52:40 AM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #56 on: June 13, 2014, 11:55:30 AM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin? 

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

But I can attest to you, as bad as my sins are, I've never in my life done something like that.... I haven't even come close.... Not remotely close.

You have to remember something also, this wasn't 1 rogue guy doing this.  It was wide spread, SANCTIONED by the RC church, and allowed over a long period of time.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #57 on: June 13, 2014, 11:56:46 AM »
Did God order his followers killed in the OT?  Did God order them tortured?  Did people pray over their torture devices to God to torture his own people?

Yes.  Or is there anyone or anything anywhere in creation that is not God's?  

Oh okay, in this logic "Let my people go", meant that the Egyptians should have let themselves go too.

"His people" referenced the Israelites in the OT.  His followers.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #58 on: June 13, 2014, 11:59:44 AM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.
How about one from John 6 that is critical?

Quote
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Do they follow the early Christians in the belief of partaking of the LITERAL Body and Blood of Christ?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:00:42 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2014, 12:00:47 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.
They deposed and excommunicated themselves for other offenses long before they set up the Inquisition. So why do you focus on the Inquisition? The truth be told, we Orthodox have not maintained a very clean record when it comes to how we've treated the heretics within our midst (e.g., the pogroms against the Jews, the Nikonian persecution of the Old Believers, etc.), so I would think it rather hypocritical for us to focus on the ugliness of the Roman inquisitions as you're trying to convince us to do.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.
Yes, it is, but are you without sin yourself?

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.
As I said, the Orthodox have done similar things, so who are we to cast stones at the Catholics for their inquisitions?

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.
Not when we're guilty of the same.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
Yes, I have my reasons.

The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.
I've heard of people holding grudges, but this is ridiculous.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.
He also commanded us to forgive those who have sinned against us. What happened? Did you fall asleep when they taught that in your seminary classes?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2014, 12:06:22 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2014, 12:12:52 PM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.
How about one from John 6 that is critical?

Quote
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Do they follow the early Christians in the belief of partaking of the LITERAL Body and Blood of Christ?

The apostles did not eat it according to the scriptures.  Christ symbolically used the broken bread to represent his body and the wine his blood.  Otherwise he would have cleaved off his flesh and drained his physical blood into the dish.   This argument would spin into a huge thread.  Again I'd reference many ante-nicene sources.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2014, 12:16:04 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.
They deposed and excommunicated themselves for other offenses long before they set up the Inquisition. So why do you focus on the Inquisition? The truth be told, we Orthodox have not maintained a very clean record when it comes to how we've treated the heretics within our midst (e.g., the pogroms against the Jews, the Nikonian persecution of the Old Believers, etc.), so I would think it rather hypocritical for us to focus on the ugliness of the Roman inquisitions as you're trying to convince us to do.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.
Yes, it is, but are you without sin yourself?

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.
As I said, the Orthodox have done similar things, so who are we to cast stones at the Catholics for their inquisitions?

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.
Not when we're guilty of the same.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
Yes, I have my reasons.

The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.
I've heard of people holding grudges, but this is ridiculous.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.
He also commanded us to forgive those who have sinned against us. What happened? Did you fall asleep when they taught that in your seminary classes?

The RC's today haven't done this.  It's a record of bad fruit from their church.  It's proof that the gates of hell did stand within their church.  They can't be the true church.  Ecumenism with them seems insane.

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Offline Joha

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2014, 12:16:47 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

If you don't mind me asking, just because I don't know:

I've seen text from the second century telling that they have mass on the Sunday because our Lord has risen on Sunday... would that contradict what you are telling, at least partially?
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Psalm 57:2 I will cry out to God Most High, To God who performs all things for me.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2014, 12:24:46 PM »
A. St. Constantine was not baptized into the Church until 337 AD. The arch was built 12 years before that.
B. Oh, your back to the symbolism idea.  Not a single ante-Nicene father represents it as a memorial or symbolic.  St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Justin among many others call it His true flesh and blood. Christ Himself calls it His true flesh and blood. The pagans at the time called Christians cannibals for eating the Body and Blood of Christ. Now you are saying that it cannot be that way because the apostles would have had to hack Jesus apart and eat Him. For someone who insists on following the literal words of Scripture and accepting the power of God, you sure follow a very anemic diety.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2014, 12:25:27 PM »
Here's another story of a man burned alive for not giving divine honor to some type of Roman idol.   This argument can also stem into iconography as the RC's use statues and idols the same way to "beam up" veneration.

BEGIN:
SIMON THE SHOPKEEPER, A. D. 1553

About the year 1553 there was at Bergen op Zoom, in Brabant, a shopkeeper, named Simon, who stood in the marketplace, to sell his wares. When the priests passed him with their idol, this Simon did not dare give divine honor to this idol made by human hands (Dan. 3:18), but, according to the testimony of God presented in the holy Scriptures, would worship and serve only the Lord his God. He was therefore apprehended by the maintainers of the Roman antichrist, and examined in the faith, which he freely confessed, rejecting their self-invented infant baptism together with all human commandments, and holding fast only to the testimony of the Word of God; hence he was sentenced to death by the enemies of thetruth, and was thus led without the city, and burnt for the testimony of Jesus. Many of the people present were therefore greatly astonished when they beheld the great boldness and steadfastness of this pious witness of God, who thus through grace obtained the crown of eternal life.

The bailiff who had him executed, on returning home from this deed, was laid upon a bed of severe sickness, and constantly exclaimed with sorrow and remorse, "O Simon, Simon!" and although the priests and monks sought to absolve him, they were nevertheless not able to give him the least comfort, but he soon died in despair, an instructive and memorable example to all tyrants and persecutors. II Macc. 9:9, 28; Acts 12:23.
END:

When EO Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope of Rome dialog and try to bridge the gap of the schism, if ever successful in union of communions, the EO communion will have this history within it.

Oh by the way, above - look a so called "protestant" quoting Maccabees!   How Luther of him!  ???
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2014, 12:27:45 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin? 

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church". 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2014, 12:31:06 PM »
Here's another story of a man burned alive for not giving divine honor to some type of Roman idol.   This argument can also stem into iconography as the RC's use statues and idols the same way to "beam up" veneration.

BEGIN:
SIMON THE SHOPKEEPER, A. D. 1553

About the year 1553 there was at Bergen op Zoom, in Brabant, a shopkeeper, named Simon, who stood in the marketplace, to sell his wares. When the priests passed him with their idol, this Simon did not dare give divine honor to this idol made by human hands (Dan. 3:18), but, according to the testimony of God presented in the holy Scriptures, would worship and serve only the Lord his God. He was therefore apprehended by the maintainers of the Roman antichrist, and examined in the faith, which he freely confessed, rejecting their self-invented infant baptism together with all human commandments, and holding fast only to the testimony of the Word of God; hence he was sentenced to death by the enemies of thetruth, and was thus led without the city, and burnt for the testimony of Jesus. Many of the people present were therefore greatly astonished when they beheld the great boldness and steadfastness of this pious witness of God, who thus through grace obtained the crown of eternal life.

The bailiff who had him executed, on returning home from this deed, was laid upon a bed of severe sickness, and constantly exclaimed with sorrow and remorse, "O Simon, Simon!" and although the priests and monks sought to absolve him, they were nevertheless not able to give him the least comfort, but he soon died in despair, an instructive and memorable example to all tyrants and persecutors. II Macc. 9:9, 28; Acts 12:23.
END:

When EO Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope of Rome dialog and try to bridge the gap of the schism, if ever successful in union of communions, the EO communion will have this history within it.

Oh by the way, above - look a so called "protestant" quoting Maccabees!   How Luther of him!  ???
Yes, that story is written in a most fair and balanced manner. Just the facts ma'am, we just want the facts.   ::)
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Offline Joha

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2014, 12:32:33 PM »
unsubscribed because bashing and ranting is not the way Christ told us.

To all: think for a moment how Christ Himself would have responded to all this. (answer at least with not with hate and ranting)
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Psalm 57:2 I will cry out to God Most High, To God who performs all things for me.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2014, 12:35:24 PM »
unsubscribed because bashing and ranting is not the way Christ told us.

To all: think for a moment how Christ Himself would have responded to all this. (answer at least with not with hate and ranting)
Personally, I think he would overturn the tables and start whipping people. ;)

EDIT: Joha, it might seem like a lot of hate flying around, but honestly I have nothing personally against YiM. I wax polemical against his ideas and he writes back with his theories on by all of Christendom has collapsed because of St. Constantine, but in the very next thread, we can have a cordial discussion on cooking food over buffalo poo. There are differences of opinion, but no one hates anyone here. Brothers and sisters might fight, but they still love each other.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:39:21 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2014, 12:36:27 PM »
A. St. Constantine was not baptized into the Church until 337 AD. The arch was built 12 years before that.
B. Oh, your back to the symbolism idea.  Not a single ante-Nicene father represents it as a memorial or symbolic.  St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Justin among many others call it His true flesh and blood. Christ Himself calls it His true flesh and blood. The pagans at the time called Christians cannibals for eating the Body and Blood of Christ. Now you are saying that it cannot be that way because the apostles would have had to hack Jesus apart and eat Him. For someone who insists on following the literal words of Scripture and accepting the power of God, you sure follow a very anemic diety.

A. You know good and well that he was given his baptism was on his death bed.  This was "post" edict of Milan.  Even in Nicea he changed the Sabbath.  It's as simple as that.

B.  It's another thread, as I said.  I would rather not digress this one.  
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Offline Joha

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2014, 12:38:25 PM »
unsubscribed because bashing and ranting is not the way Christ told us.

To all: think for a moment how Christ Himself would have responded to all this. (answer at least with not with hate and ranting)
Personally, I think he would overturn the tables and start whipping people. ;)

Than again... He does have that authority...
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Psalm 57:2 I will cry out to God Most High, To God who performs all things for me.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2014, 12:39:55 PM »
unsubscribed because bashing and ranting is not the way Christ told us.

To all: think for a moment how Christ Himself would have responded to all this. (answer at least with not with hate and ranting)
Personally, I think he would overturn the tables and start whipping people. ;)

Than again... He does have that authority...
See my edit.  :P
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Offline Joha

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2014, 12:42:30 PM »
unsubscribed because bashing and ranting is not the way Christ told us.

To all: think for a moment how Christ Himself would have responded to all this. (answer at least with not with hate and ranting)
Personally, I think he would overturn the tables and start whipping people. ;)

Than again... He does have that authority...
See my edit.  :P

right buffalo poo... :P
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Psalm 57:2 I will cry out to God Most High, To God who performs all things for me.
You're big :P
The art of cherry picking

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2014, 12:42:35 PM »
Did God order his followers killed in the OT?  Did God order them tortured?  Did people pray over their torture devices to God to torture his own people?

Yes.  Or is there anyone or anything anywhere in creation that is not God's?  

Oh okay, in this logic "Let my people go", meant that the Egyptians should have let themselves go too.

"His people" referenced the Israelites in the OT.  His followers.

Sure, but you can't use that to wriggle out of the problem that God orders a group he chose to favour to utterly obliterate groups he chose not to favour in the same way but who were nevertheless his creation.  It's not like they were not his people: all are descended from Adam and Noah.  It was out of all the nations that he chose Israel as a people peculiarly his own, but that doesn't mean God gave up on the others.  
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2014, 12:45:53 PM »
A. St. Constantine was not baptized into the Church until 337 AD. The arch was built 12 years before that.
B. Oh, your back to the symbolism idea.  Not a single ante-Nicene father represents it as a memorial or symbolic.  St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Justin among many others call it His true flesh and blood. Christ Himself calls it His true flesh and blood. The pagans at the time called Christians cannibals for eating the Body and Blood of Christ. Now you are saying that it cannot be that way because the apostles would have had to hack Jesus apart and eat Him. For someone who insists on following the literal words of Scripture and accepting the power of God, you sure follow a very anemic diety.

A. You know good and well that he was given his baptism was on his death bed.  This was "post" edict of Milan.  Even in Nicea he changed the Sabbath.  It's as simple as that.

B.  It's another thread, as I said.  I would rather not digress this one.  
There is nothing inherently wrong with worshiping on Sunday. It is after all, a rather important day of the week as far as Christians go.  Something about a resurrection, I hear. Also, St. Paul discusses it in his letter to the Corinithans.  He talks about meeting on the first day to give tithes and offerings. Luke says in Acts that they met together on the first day to break bread.

Please start it then.  I would love to know what your latest understanding of communion is.
God bless!

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2014, 12:48:01 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin? 

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church". 

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2014, 12:51:03 PM »
Well, if the RC church is the antichrist as your passage above states, and they wiped out the Waldenses, that doesn't bode well for the whole "gate of hell never prevailing" idea.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2014, 12:55:41 PM »
My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.

Show me which of these groups lacks even one sinner.  That is the standard for "church" which you have set, so I'm not going to take any of them seriously until we can verify that they have no sinners at all. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Antonis

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #79 on: June 13, 2014, 12:59:21 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin? 

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church". 

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
And so we arrive at North American Protestant mythology.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2014, 01:01:07 PM »
A. St. Constantine was not baptized into the Church until 337 AD. The arch was built 12 years before that.
B. Oh, your back to the symbolism idea.  Not a single ante-Nicene father represents it as a memorial or symbolic.  St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, St. Justin among many others call it His true flesh and blood. Christ Himself calls it His true flesh and blood. The pagans at the time called Christians cannibals for eating the Body and Blood of Christ. Now you are saying that it cannot be that way because the apostles would have had to hack Jesus apart and eat Him. For someone who insists on following the literal words of Scripture and accepting the power of God, you sure follow a very anemic diety.

A. You know good and well that he was given his baptism was on his death bed.  This was "post" edict of Milan.  Even in Nicea he changed the Sabbath.  It's as simple as that.

B.  It's another thread, as I said.  I would rather not digress this one.  
There is nothing inherently wrong with worshiping on Sunday. It is after all, a rather important day of the week as far as Christians go.  Something about a resurrection, I hear. Also, St. Paul discusses it in his letter to the Corinithans.  He talks about meeting on the first day to give tithes and offerings. Luke says in Acts that they met together on the first day to break bread.

Please start it then.  I would love to know what your latest understanding of communion is.

Won't start them now, I'll post on it soon.  Not enough time.


In Acts, they met on the first day (as it was called not Sunday) because it was during the feast of passover and unleavened bread.   Christ's passover (the last supper), is a Jewish feast (made Christian).  It would be very common for them to be breaking bread on the feast of unleavened bread.  Theologians pegged this to mean "they were worshipping on Sunday and having the eucharist".

The "tithes and offerings" you talked about - are not mentioned in the 1 Corinthians 16:2-3 -  "2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. 3 And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem. "

This has nothing to do with Sunday worship, but more to the point REST as Constantine changed the day of rest.  
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2014, 01:02:04 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin? 

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church". 

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
And so we arrive at North American Protestant mythology.

Well the history books don't think so.  Interestingly though, when you read history, you'll see a lot of Roman paganism in other religions.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2014, 01:06:40 PM »
Quote
We sailed from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas within five days; and there we stayed seven days. And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
So they left Philippi AFTER the Days of Unleavened Bread. Got to Troas 5 days later, and stayed 7 days.  How exactly are they celebrating the Days of Unleavened Bread on the first day? They are somewhere between 5 and 12 days after the Days of Unleavened Bread.

So they are supposed to show up, drop off collections and leave after they had been worshipping the day before?  Why wouldn't Paul just tell them to drop off the collection when they were worshipping on the Sabbath? That makes no sense.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2014, 01:06:58 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.
The only thing you're missing is that Christians have been celebrating the Resurrection every Sunday since at least the time of St. Paul, as St. Luke records (Acts 20:7). Your charge is also ridiculous on the count that most non-Germanic languages refer to the first day of the week as The Lord's Day, NOT as Sunday.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2014, 01:09:01 PM »
My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.

Show me which of these groups lacks even one sinner.  That is the standard for "church" which you have set, so I'm not going to take any of them seriously until we can verify that they have no sinners at all. 

You edited out my complete post.  It is NOT the standard for church.  People sin.  Never say they didn't.   I spoke of the RC church body.  It was a long duration of persecution where murder was permitted.

However I can say this, I don't see where the Waldenses CHURCH came together and murdered people in the name of Jesus Christ.

Sinless people - never (save Christ).     It's not my standard.

I think it's odd that you compare my personal sin next to the RC church body.    

If you killed somebody, does that mean all EO Christians killed somebody?  No.  Does it speak for the church?  No.

But the RC church DID sanction the death, murder, and torture of men, women, and children for centuries.  This was a GROUP of many people for a long time.  Personal sin is different than a church body.  
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #85 on: June 13, 2014, 01:10:27 PM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.
How about one from John 6 that is critical?

Quote
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Do they follow the early Christians in the belief of partaking of the LITERAL Body and Blood of Christ?

The apostles did not eat it according to the scriptures.  Christ symbolically used the broken bread to represent his body and the wine his blood.  Otherwise he would have cleaved off his flesh and drained his physical blood into the dish.   This argument would spin into a huge thread.  Again I'd reference many ante-nicene sources.
Instead of boasting of all these sources you claim the ability to reference, why don't you quote them here? Otherwise, your boasting is nothing but empty hot air.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #86 on: June 13, 2014, 01:15:45 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.
The only thing you're missing is that Christians have been celebrating the Resurrection every Sunday since at least the time of St. Paul, as St. Luke records (Acts 20:7). Your charge is also ridiculous on the count that most non-Germanic languages refer to the first day of the week as The Lord's Day, NOT as Sunday.

Read the post above.  Acts 20:7 was the feast of Unleavened bread, after passover.  The Last Supper = Passover - death - 3 days -  resurrection - greeted on the first day.  Learn the feast of Passover/unleavened bread.

Even the EO church calls it Pascha. (passover).   Constantine moved this to Sunday too btw, when passover is Nisan 14.  He did it "the SUNday after passover".

These were established feasts by the "Father" for all time in Leviticus 23.  He told us exactly how to calculate them, Constantine didn't like this.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #87 on: June 13, 2014, 01:19:07 PM »
You edited out my complete post.  It is NOT the standard for church.  People sin.  Never say they didn't.   I spoke of the RC church body.  It was a long duration of persecution where murder was permitted.

However I can say this, I don't see where the Waldenses CHURCH came together and murdered people in the name of Jesus Christ.

Sinless people - never (save Christ).     It's not my standard.

I think it's odd that you compare my personal sin next to the RC church body.    

If you killed somebody, does that mean all EO Christians killed somebody?  No.  Does it speak for the church?  No.

But the RC church DID sanction the death, murder, and torture of men, women, and children for centuries.  This was a GROUP of many people for a long time.  Personal sin is different than a church body.  

This is nothing but your anti-Catholic bias fueled by the "North American Protestant mythology" someone else mentioned here.  

When you are introducing "sin" as a meaningful category, why shouldn't I compare your sins next to those of Catholics?  Are they any less sinful?  Both are violations of God's law.  And while you seem to think sin negates "churchness", apostolic succession, absolutely prevents sanctity by impeding the grace of God, etc., you are quick to absolve yourself and those you prefer.  You speak ill of the dead who cannot respond in their own defence (don't worry, God will speak for them), you blame women for your own lusts and spiritual adultery which you conduct with them in your heart, you judge with false judgement, you willfully misinterpret Scripture, etc., and yet you are OK and others are evil.  

No, YiM.  No.    
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #88 on: June 13, 2014, 01:19:29 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.
They deposed and excommunicated themselves for other offenses long before they set up the Inquisition. So why do you focus on the Inquisition? The truth be told, we Orthodox have not maintained a very clean record when it comes to how we've treated the heretics within our midst (e.g., the pogroms against the Jews, the Nikonian persecution of the Old Believers, etc.), so I would think it rather hypocritical for us to focus on the ugliness of the Roman inquisitions as you're trying to convince us to do.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.
Yes, it is, but are you without sin yourself?

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.
As I said, the Orthodox have done similar things, so who are we to cast stones at the Catholics for their inquisitions?

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.
Not when we're guilty of the same.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
Yes, I have my reasons.

The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.
I've heard of people holding grudges, but this is ridiculous.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.
He also commanded us to forgive those who have sinned against us. What happened? Did you fall asleep when they taught that in your seminary classes?

The RC's today haven't done this.  It's a record of bad fruit from their church.  It's proof that the gates of hell did stand within their church.  They can't be the true church.  Ecumenism with them seems insane.
Remember. You're preaching to the choir here. I have so many valid reasons to oppose union with the RC church at this time that I have no need to believe the BS propaganda spewed by some internet yahoo who still bears a grudge over what happened 350 years ago.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #89 on: June 13, 2014, 01:22:34 PM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.
How about one from John 6 that is critical?

Quote
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Do they follow the early Christians in the belief of partaking of the LITERAL Body and Blood of Christ?

The apostles did not eat it according to the scriptures.  Christ symbolically used the broken bread to represent his body and the wine his blood.  Otherwise he would have cleaved off his flesh and drained his physical blood into the dish.   This argument would spin into a huge thread.  Again I'd reference many ante-nicene sources.
Instead of boasting of all these sources you claim the ability to reference, why don't you quote them here? Otherwise, your boasting is nothing but empty hot air.

Don't have time today brother.  But for homework, look up when the word "transubstantiation" was first used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation

It's a complex and involved issue.  Need lots of time to compile sources.  It's not a one liner thing.  It's not just symbolic as I stated, it's a bad word.

Read that link and you'll see it goes deep.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2014, 01:23:16 PM »
Here's another story of a man burned alive for not giving divine honor to some type of Roman idol.   This argument can also stem into iconography as the RC's use statues and idols the same way to "beam up" veneration.

BEGIN:
SIMON THE SHOPKEEPER, A. D. 1553

About the year 1553 there was at Bergen op Zoom, in Brabant, a shopkeeper, named Simon, who stood in the marketplace, to sell his wares. When the priests passed him with their idol, this Simon did not dare give divine honor to this idol made by human hands (Dan. 3:18), but, according to the testimony of God presented in the holy Scriptures, would worship and serve only the Lord his God. He was therefore apprehended by the maintainers of the Roman antichrist, and examined in the faith, which he freely confessed, rejecting their self-invented infant baptism together with all human commandments, and holding fast only to the testimony of the Word of God; hence he was sentenced to death by the enemies of thetruth, and was thus led without the city, and burnt for the testimony of Jesus. Many of the people present were therefore greatly astonished when they beheld the great boldness and steadfastness of this pious witness of God, who thus through grace obtained the crown of eternal life.

The bailiff who had him executed, on returning home from this deed, was laid upon a bed of severe sickness, and constantly exclaimed with sorrow and remorse, "O Simon, Simon!" and although the priests and monks sought to absolve him, they were nevertheless not able to give him the least comfort, but he soon died in despair, an instructive and memorable example to all tyrants and persecutors. II Macc. 9:9, 28; Acts 12:23.
END:

When EO Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope of Rome dialog and try to bridge the gap of the schism, if ever successful in union of communions, the EO communion will have this history within it.

Oh by the way, above - look a so called "protestant" quoting Maccabees!   How Luther of him!  ???
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #91 on: June 13, 2014, 01:28:11 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin?  

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church".  

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
And so we arrive at North American Protestant mythology.

Well the history books don't think so.  Interestingly though, when you read history, you'll see a lot of Roman paganism in other religions.
No, actually. The history books would say that Waldensianism originated nearly a millennium after Nicaea in France. That doesn't stop American Protestants such as yourself from appropriating them as a small, persecuted remnant of true Christianity through history that you can use as a bulwark of legitimacy. It is, however, patently false.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 01:31:37 PM by Antonis »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2014, 01:31:57 PM »
You edited out my complete post.  It is NOT the standard for church.  People sin.  Never say they didn't.   I spoke of the RC church body.  It was a long duration of persecution where murder was permitted.

However I can say this, I don't see where the Waldenses CHURCH came together and murdered people in the name of Jesus Christ.

Sinless people - never (save Christ).     It's not my standard.

I think it's odd that you compare my personal sin next to the RC church body.    

If you killed somebody, does that mean all EO Christians killed somebody?  No.  Does it speak for the church?  No.

But the RC church DID sanction the death, murder, and torture of men, women, and children for centuries.  This was a GROUP of many people for a long time.  Personal sin is different than a church body.  

This is nothing but your anti-Catholic bias fueled by the "North American Protestant mythology" someone else mentioned here.  

When you are introducing "sin" as a meaningful category, why shouldn't I compare your sins next to those of Catholics?  Are they any less sinful?  Both are violations of God's law.  And while you seem to think sin negates "churchness", apostolic succession, absolutely prevents sanctity by impeding the grace of God, etc., you are quick to absolve yourself and those you prefer.  You speak ill of the dead who cannot respond in their own defence (don't worry, God will speak for them), you blame women for your own lusts and spiritual adultery which you conduct with them in your heart, you judge with false judgement, you willfully misinterpret Scripture, etc., and yet you are OK and others are evil.  

No, YiM.  No.    

Okay then by your standard, I've killed thousands of men, women, and children.  I tortured little children in front of their parents, stock red hot irons in the anuses of men and women, impaled, racked, hung, burned, quartered, put people on the breaking wheel, etc.  I must be a monster.  I've also done this for hundreds of years, with thousands of myself approving.  We've got to be real.

I've violated God's law many times as we have all.  But even though we disagree a lot Mor, I'd trust my children next to you infinitely more than the RC church at that time.  I doubt you'd drown my daughter and burn my sons alive - even if they would refuse to become EO.  It's because it takes monsters to do such things.  It takes those who love evil to do such things.

We can forgive the executioners.  We do not have to forgive an institution.

The Roman Catholic church is in violation of God's law and their "own" Canon.  I'm not bearing any grudge on a person, but rather an institution.  The institution condoned these murders as a whole.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2014, 01:33:47 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin?  

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church".  

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
And so we arrive at North American Protestant mythology.

Well the history books don't think so.  Interestingly though, when you read history, you'll see a lot of Roman paganism in other religions.
No, actually. The history books would say that Waldensianism originated nearly a millennium after Nicaea in France. That doesn't stop American Protestants such as yourself from appropriating them as a small, persecuted remnant of true Christianity through history that you can use as a bulwark of legitimacy. It is, however, patently false.
Protestants follow sola scriptura as Luther did.  I continually quote early Christians.

You need to read more detailed history books btw.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2014, 01:36:16 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin?  

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church".  

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
And so we arrive at North American Protestant mythology.

Well the history books don't think so.  Interestingly though, when you read history, you'll see a lot of Roman paganism in other religions.
No, actually. The history books would say that Waldensianism originated nearly a millennium after Nicaea in France. That doesn't stop American Protestants such as yourself from appropriating them as a small, persecuted remnant of true Christianity through history that you can use as a bulwark of legitimacy. It is, however, patently false.
Protestants follow sola scriptura as Luther did.  I continually quote early Christians.

You need to read more detailed history books btw.
I guess I'll just take that as a non-response, then.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2014, 01:37:01 PM »
Here's another story of a man burned alive for not giving divine honor to some type of Roman idol.   This argument can also stem into iconography as the RC's use statues and idols the same way to "beam up" veneration.

BEGIN:
SIMON THE SHOPKEEPER, A. D. 1553

About the year 1553 there was at Bergen op Zoom, in Brabant, a shopkeeper, named Simon, who stood in the marketplace, to sell his wares. When the priests passed him with their idol, this Simon did not dare give divine honor to this idol made by human hands (Dan. 3:18), but, according to the testimony of God presented in the holy Scriptures, would worship and serve only the Lord his God. He was therefore apprehended by the maintainers of the Roman antichrist, and examined in the faith, which he freely confessed, rejecting their self-invented infant baptism together with all human commandments, and holding fast only to the testimony of the Word of God; hence he was sentenced to death by the enemies of thetruth, and was thus led without the city, and burnt for the testimony of Jesus. Many of the people present were therefore greatly astonished when they beheld the great boldness and steadfastness of this pious witness of God, who thus through grace obtained the crown of eternal life.

The bailiff who had him executed, on returning home from this deed, was laid upon a bed of severe sickness, and constantly exclaimed with sorrow and remorse, "O Simon, Simon!" and although the priests and monks sought to absolve him, they were nevertheless not able to give him the least comfort, but he soon died in despair, an instructive and memorable example to all tyrants and persecutors. II Macc. 9:9, 28; Acts 12:23.
END:

When EO Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope of Rome dialog and try to bridge the gap of the schism, if ever successful in union of communions, the EO communion will have this history within it.

Oh by the way, above - look a so called "protestant" quoting Maccabees!   How Luther of him!  ???
Please cite the source of this material. Yes, this is a formal moderator request.  -PtA
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/martyrs074.htm

It's at the bottom of the page.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #96 on: June 13, 2014, 01:42:14 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #97 on: June 13, 2014, 01:42:26 PM »
The point is that the RC church is not a true church.  Any church that would drown a 13 year old Girl's family in front of her, then ask her to give up her biblical beliefs (staying true to scripture) by venerating a statue of Mary or else they'd drown her too is not a Christian church.

I believe when Christ said "love your enemies" he probably meant not to kill them..... Oddly, they weren't the RC church enemies either, they just didn't think like them.

I guess you don't sin?  

Sure I sin.  I sin plenty.

I edited out the unimportant parts of your response.  Since you, by your own admission, "sin plenty", Anabaptistognostodoxy or whatever it is you follow is obviously disqualified as "a church".  

Why not edit it out...  Many things seem edited out by the EO - including following Christ's commands.

My faith is actually very close to the Waldenses faith, but most would not know what that is because Rome slaughtered them.  They were Sabbath keeping Christians who kept many of the ante-nicene teachings and the scriptures.    They absorbed later into the Anabaptists because so few were left.
And so we arrive at North American Protestant mythology.

Well the history books don't think so.  Interestingly though, when you read history, you'll see a lot of Roman paganism in other religions.
No, actually. The history books would say that Waldensianism originated nearly a millennium after Nicaea in France. That doesn't stop American Protestants such as yourself from appropriating them as a small, persecuted remnant of true Christianity through history that you can use as a bulwark of legitimacy. It is, however, patently false.
Protestants follow sola scriptura as Luther did.  I continually quote early Christians.

You need to read more detailed history books btw.
I guess I'll just take that as a non-response, then.

Why, I'm just saying I'm not a protestant.  Protestants follow sola scriptura.  I posted a link above citing a so called "protestant source" that quotes macc.  

I know and understand, most EO Christians believe there is RC, EO, and the rest are protestants.  This is not true however.   Not everything came from these churches.  If you believe this, you need to read writings of EO saints.   In fact, I recently made a post on the Nazarenes, which Paul was and agreed he followed "the entire law", as the Nazarenes.

Gotta run folks for now.  God Bless!
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #98 on: June 13, 2014, 01:43:58 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
I believe it was forged as it was stuck at the end of his work -
http://thesourcehh.com/pdf/Contributors%20Documents/William%20Shea/Justin_Martyr_forgery.pdf

God Bless!
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2014, 01:52:20 PM »
Okay then by your standard, I've killed thousands of men, women, and children.  I tortured little children in front of their parents, stock red hot irons in the anuses of men and women, impaled, racked, hung, burned, quartered, put people on the breaking wheel, etc.  I must be a monster.  I've also done this for hundreds of years, with thousands of myself approving.  We've got to be real.

My standard is simply what comes from your keyboard and comparing it with Scripture.  You point out the sins of the RCC (assuming it was actually the sins of the institution and not of individuals within), but you have sins of your own.  Both are violations of God's law, and as far as I can tell, God never said he likes some sins but not others.  If sin can discredit the RCC, sin can equally discredit you.  That's called keeping it real.    

Quote
I've violated God's law many times as we have all.  But even though we disagree a lot Mor, I'd trust my children next to you infinitely more than the RC church at that time.  I doubt you'd drown my daughter and burn my sons alive - even if they would refuse to become EO.  It's because it takes monsters to do such things.  It takes those who love evil to do such things.

Your children would love me.  Everyone's children love me.  :)

Quote
We can forgive the executioners.  We do not have to forgive an institution.

Where is that in Scripture?  I am unable to locate limitations on forgiveness in Scripture.  The Jewish priesthood and Caesar's army were busy killing Jesus while he was praying for their forgiveness.  Are you too good to imitate his example?  

Quote
The Roman Catholic church is in violation of God's law and their "own" Canon.  I'm not bearing any grudge on a person, but rather an institution.  The institution condoned these murders as a whole.

And you are also in violation of God's law and your own "canon".  
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2014, 01:55:43 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.
The only thing you're missing is that Christians have been celebrating the Resurrection every Sunday since at least the time of St. Paul, as St. Luke records (Acts 20:7). Your charge is also ridiculous on the count that most non-Germanic languages refer to the first day of the week as The Lord's Day, NOT as Sunday.

Read the post above.  Acts 20:7 was the feast of Unleavened bread, after passover.  The Last Supper = Passover - death - 3 days -  resurrection - greeted on the first day.  Learn the feast of Passover/unleavened bread.

Even the EO church calls it Pascha. (passover).   Constantine moved this to Sunday too btw, when passover is Nisan 14.  He did it "the SUNday after passover".
Actually, no. It was the Council of Nicea that mandated that Pascha was to be celebrated only on the first day of the week, and this only because most of the Church had already been celebrating Pascha on the first day of the week for a couple of centuries. Again, considering that even today most non-Germanic languages refer to Saturday as the Sabbath and to Sunday as the Lord's Day, I find your heavily Anglicized charges ludicrous.

These were established feasts by the "Father" for all time in Leviticus 23.  He told us exactly how to calculate them, Constantine didn't like this.
Except that the only role Constantine played in this was that he convoked the councils and he enforced their decrees. I'm not aware that he made any far-reaching decrees on faith or praxis all by himself.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #101 on: June 13, 2014, 01:58:10 PM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.
How about one from John 6 that is critical?

Quote
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."

Do they follow the early Christians in the belief of partaking of the LITERAL Body and Blood of Christ?

The apostles did not eat it according to the scriptures.  Christ symbolically used the broken bread to represent his body and the wine his blood.  Otherwise he would have cleaved off his flesh and drained his physical blood into the dish.   This argument would spin into a huge thread.  Again I'd reference many ante-nicene sources.
Instead of boasting of all these sources you claim the ability to reference, why don't you quote them here? Otherwise, your boasting is nothing but empty hot air.

Don't have time today brother.  But for homework, look up when the word "transubstantiation" was first used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubstantiation
Sorry, buddy, not doing your homework for you.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #102 on: June 13, 2014, 02:00:28 PM »
You edited out my complete post.  It is NOT the standard for church.  People sin.  Never say they didn't.   I spoke of the RC church body.  It was a long duration of persecution where murder was permitted.

However I can say this, I don't see where the Waldenses CHURCH came together and murdered people in the name of Jesus Christ.

Sinless people - never (save Christ).     It's not my standard.

I think it's odd that you compare my personal sin next to the RC church body.    

If you killed somebody, does that mean all EO Christians killed somebody?  No.  Does it speak for the church?  No.

But the RC church DID sanction the death, murder, and torture of men, women, and children for centuries.  This was a GROUP of many people for a long time.  Personal sin is different than a church body.  

This is nothing but your anti-Catholic bias fueled by the "North American Protestant mythology" someone else mentioned here.  

When you are introducing "sin" as a meaningful category, why shouldn't I compare your sins next to those of Catholics?  Are they any less sinful?  Both are violations of God's law.  And while you seem to think sin negates "churchness", apostolic succession, absolutely prevents sanctity by impeding the grace of God, etc., you are quick to absolve yourself and those you prefer.  You speak ill of the dead who cannot respond in their own defence (don't worry, God will speak for them), you blame women for your own lusts and spiritual adultery which you conduct with them in your heart, you judge with false judgement, you willfully misinterpret Scripture, etc., and yet you are OK and others are evil.  

No, YiM.  No.    

Okay then by your standard, I've killed thousands of men, women, and children.  I tortured little children in front of their parents, stock red hot irons in the anuses of men and women, impaled, racked, hung, burned, quartered, put people on the breaking wheel, etc.  I must be a monster.  I've also done this for hundreds of years, with thousands of myself approving.  We've got to be real.

I've violated God's law many times as we have all.  But even though we disagree a lot Mor, I'd trust my children next to you infinitely more than the RC church at that time.  I doubt you'd drown my daughter and burn my sons alive - even if they would refuse to become EO.  It's because it takes monsters to do such things.  It takes those who love evil to do such things.

We can forgive the executioners.  We do not have to forgive an institution.

The Roman Catholic church is in violation of God's law and their "own" Canon.  I'm not bearing any grudge on a person, but rather an institution.
IOW, you're bearing a grudge. It doesn't matter against whom.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #103 on: June 13, 2014, 02:00:57 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
I believe it was forged as it was stuck at the end of his work -
http://thesourcehh.com/pdf/Contributors%20Documents/William%20Shea/Justin_Martyr_forgery.pdf

God Bless!
I believe the whole resurrection story was forged too.  Every gospel has it stuck at the end.  Very Suspicious.  ::)
God bless!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #104 on: June 13, 2014, 02:06:07 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2014, 03:20:42 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.


bigger shame is all the uninsured commenting  :laugh:
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Offline Didyma

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #106 on: June 13, 2014, 03:27:06 PM »
As I said before, we don't believe the Roman Catholic Church is the Church, with or without this institutionalized torture allegation, so in order for her to join with us again, she would have to become Orthodox.  So, I don't see your problem.  Is it the E.P. negotiating with Pope Francis?  What's wrong with that?

Also, where the Catholics at?  I think we'd like your input on this torture thing.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2014, 05:50:30 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

As to Constantine's decree on Sunday rest, I'll assume you mean this one:

Quote
All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.

As I have noted in the past, this says nothing about the Sabbath nor Christianity and the only connection between this decree and the Church was the fact that its issuer was a Christian sympathizer. All he did here was mandate an Empire-wide day of rest without recourse to any specific religion and he certainly didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll repeat a question I asked you in the past but for which I got no reply: had any other emperor prior to Constantine issued this very same decree, could he have been accused of having changed the Sabbath day as well?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 05:58:40 PM by Hawkeye »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2014, 06:05:29 PM »
All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

According to Scripture, baptism is for the remission of sins except in the case of Emperor Constantine.  The earliest manuscripts of Romans contain the italicised words (in Greek, of course), but they were removed by Emperor Constantine so that the path could be cleared for his eventual glorification and to remove the ambiguity caused by a Pauline epistle doubling as a prophetic book.   
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2014, 06:09:02 PM »
All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

According to Scripture, baptism is for the remission of sins except in the case of Emperor Constantine.  The earliest manuscripts of Romans contain the italicised words (in Greek, of course), but they were removed by Emperor Constantine so that the path could be cleared for his eventual glorification and to remove the ambiguity caused by a Pauline epistle doubling as a prophetic book.   

I saw the mention of St. Constantine, and despite having forgotten who started this thread, I still immediately knew who Hawkeye was replying to.

Sigh.

Offline Father H

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2014, 06:35:55 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

You remember Yeshua and his instructions to do as those on the seat of Moses say but not as they do right? 

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2014, 08:43:54 PM »
I see Yesh still doesn't seem to grasp the idea that when one repents, all the past sins- no matter how bad, even murder- are wiped away. St. Constantine repented and accepted baptism, even if it was when he was close to death. So, it doesn't matter what he did before that.

God can forgive even the worst of sinners.
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Offline Avdima

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2014, 09:10:40 PM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.

Its quite sad when we have to look at Anabaptists as role models for Christians. Them being only 500 years old and acting more Christ-like then those members of Churches founded by the apostles themselves. 

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2014, 09:20:50 PM »
the anti-nicenes...
the anti-nicenes

Why are you following Arians?

(Just kidding, but I couldn't resist ;D )

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2014, 09:58:09 PM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.

Actually you are very wrong on this.

They have many other similarities.

Many of them flee luxuries, such as Polycarp talked about.... Unlike EO bishops.
They flee gold, silver, pearls, and fancy stuff (including luxuries above) like early Christians.... Unlike many EO bishops and laymen.
They practice non-resistance, as did the early Christians.... Unlike EO did to the Old Believers
They dress modestly (oh boy that thread) much like the early guys wrote about.... Varies in EO
They continually reference quotes from Jesus Christ in the scriptures much like the anti-nicenes...
They don't praise Mary continually like the anti-nicenes, which the EO do continually & all the time.
All brethren (including bishops) wash all feet, even of the laymen, which is not a common practice in the EO church (and instructed by Christ).

Oh buddy, trust me, if we compare the Anabaptists to the earliest Christians next to the EO church, your head will spin and I'll bet you all I'll get is bitterness because my points will be valid.

Its quite sad when we have to look at Anabaptists as role models for Christians. Them being only 500 years old and acting more Christ-like then those members of Churches founded by the apostles themselves. 

The Anabaptists were a lot of things (and were to become a lot more), but they weren't so different from average Christendom. They used holy men from the collective European memory, is all, including religious orders, as examples how to live ascetic and pious lives. In this regard, they were nothing more than peasants and artisans determined to maintain those humble roles (in a world that was modernizing and hounding men off the land into the slums and armies) and to add to them obvious ascetic piety and peacefulness. And actually it all made sense to European Christians of the time, as in fact Anabaptists were of huge influence, for a while.

Where things get squiggly, then, is of course church-related. But it's important first to be conscious of one thing: The Anabaptists were convinced the world was ending. Europe and the old ways and the Roman church were all undergoing unspeakable upheaval and violence. The first Anabaptists simply took it for granted that this life was over, including to all practical intents, the church. As such, they worshiped and practiced the sacraments underground and ad hoc. Think of it as oikonomía on steroids.

Now it's true that soon enough someone like Menno Simon(sen) would come along and systematize things and try to reach an understanding with the Reformed church. At that point I begin to lose interest in Anabaptism. At that point they erect themselves a true competitor to the church while also sliding dully into Protestantism. But I think too many comments in this thread have been said against them from ignorance and pure lack of sympathy.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2014, 07:54:58 PM »
Okay then by your standard, I've killed thousands of men, women, and children.  I tortured little children in front of their parents, stock red hot irons in the anuses of men and women, impaled, racked, hung, burned, quartered, put people on the breaking wheel, etc.  I must be a monster.  I've also done this for hundreds of years, with thousands of myself approving.  We've got to be real.

My standard is simply what comes from your keyboard and comparing it with Scripture.  You point out the sins of the RCC (assuming it was actually the sins of the institution and not of individuals within), but you have sins of your own.  Both are violations of God's law, and as far as I can tell, God never said he likes some sins but not others.  If sin can discredit the RCC, sin can equally discredit you.  That's called keeping it real.    

Quote
I've violated God's law many times as we have all.  But even though we disagree a lot Mor, I'd trust my children next to you infinitely more than the RC church at that time.  I doubt you'd drown my daughter and burn my sons alive - even if they would refuse to become EO.  It's because it takes monsters to do such things.  It takes those who love evil to do such things.

Your children would love me.  Everyone's children love me.  :)

Quote
We can forgive the executioners.  We do not have to forgive an institution.

Where is that in Scripture?  I am unable to locate limitations on forgiveness in Scripture.  The Jewish priesthood and Caesar's army were busy killing Jesus while he was praying for their forgiveness.  Are you too good to imitate his example?  

Quote
The Roman Catholic church is in violation of God's law and their "own" Canon.  I'm not bearing any grudge on a person, but rather an institution.  The institution condoned these murders as a whole.

And you are also in violation of God's law and your own "canon".  

Jesus prayed for "them" the people. 

I am a person who sins who needs forgiveness.
The RCC is not a person.     It is an "institution" they believe is a church.   Nonetheless, there is no person named "Roman Catholic Church".

An analogy - We can forgive Hitler, Goebbels, and Hess.   They are people.   But we can think the Nazi party was evil as an institution.   But the individuals comprised in the party are human beings.

The RCC is an institution.  We do not have to "forgive" an institution, it is not a human.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2014, 07:56:39 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.

PtA, I can't argue all day, but the link I posted should give you more than a "run".

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2014, 07:58:41 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

As to Constantine's decree on Sunday rest, I'll assume you mean this one:

Quote
All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.

As I have noted in the past, this says nothing about the Sabbath nor Christianity and the only connection between this decree and the Church was the fact that its issuer was a Christian sympathizer. All he did here was mandate an Empire-wide day of rest without recourse to any specific religion and he certainly didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll repeat a question I asked you in the past but for which I got no reply: had any other emperor prior to Constantine issued this very same decree, could he have been accused of having changed the Sabbath day as well?
Hawkeye, so you are saying that before his baptism that the EO church allowed a Roman Pagan to dictate the day of worship for the church?

The irony runs wild.   
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2014, 08:00:00 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

As to Constantine's decree on Sunday rest, I'll assume you mean this one:

Quote
All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.

As I have noted in the past, this says nothing about the Sabbath nor Christianity and the only connection between this decree and the Church was the fact that its issuer was a Christian sympathizer. All he did here was mandate an Empire-wide day of rest without recourse to any specific religion and he certainly didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll repeat a question I asked you in the past but for which I got no reply: had any other emperor prior to Constantine issued this very same decree, could he have been accused of having changed the Sabbath day as well?
Hawkeye, so you are saying that before his baptism that the EO church allowed a Roman Pagan to dictate the day of worship for the church?

The irony runs wild.   

When did a Roman Pagan do that?
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #119 on: June 14, 2014, 08:00:45 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

You remember Yeshua and his instructions to do as those on the seat of Moses say but not as they do right? 

In respect, please cite scriptures an how it works with what you are saying.  I'm seeing this from 3 angles.  Just unclear.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2014, 08:01:20 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.

PtA, I can't argue all day, but the link I posted should give you more than a "run".
An essay published by an arm of one of the biggest modern-day opponents of Sunday worship hardly passes muster for good, objective scholarship.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2014, 08:03:13 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

As to Constantine's decree on Sunday rest, I'll assume you mean this one:

Quote
All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.

As I have noted in the past, this says nothing about the Sabbath nor Christianity and the only connection between this decree and the Church was the fact that its issuer was a Christian sympathizer. All he did here was mandate an Empire-wide day of rest without recourse to any specific religion and he certainly didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll repeat a question I asked you in the past but for which I got no reply: had any other emperor prior to Constantine issued this very same decree, could he have been accused of having changed the Sabbath day as well?
Hawkeye, so you are saying that before his baptism that the EO church allowed a Roman Pagan to dictate the day of worship for the church?

The irony runs wild.   

When did a Roman Pagan do that?

You said that Constantine's baptism was the remission of sins.  Baptism in the EO church also brings somebody who is not baptized into the church body.

Thus if Constantine made the decree "before he was baptized", then the EO church allowed a pagan to dictate the church's day of worship.   If he was an EO Christian, then he was unbaptized when he made the decree.

Either way, he made the decree and was an unbaptized EO Christian OR a pagan.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2014, 08:06:36 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.

PtA, I can't argue all day, but the link I posted should give you more than a "run".
An essay published by an arm of one of the biggest modern-day opponents of Sunday worship hardly passes muster for good, objective scholarship.

But you only have one source, and it is contested - placed at the very end of Justin Martyr's work.  The document tears it apart.

Here's 63 reasons to keep the Sabbath.
http://messianicpublications.com/robert-roy/reasons-to-keep-the-7th-day/

EDIT - AND EVERY reason is backed with scripture. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 08:09:32 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2014, 08:07:39 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

As to Constantine's decree on Sunday rest, I'll assume you mean this one:

Quote
All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.

As I have noted in the past, this says nothing about the Sabbath nor Christianity and the only connection between this decree and the Church was the fact that its issuer was a Christian sympathizer. All he did here was mandate an Empire-wide day of rest without recourse to any specific religion and he certainly didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll repeat a question I asked you in the past but for which I got no reply: had any other emperor prior to Constantine issued this very same decree, could he have been accused of having changed the Sabbath day as well?
Hawkeye, so you are saying that before his baptism that the EO church allowed a Roman Pagan to dictate the day of worship for the church?

The irony runs wild.   

When did a Roman Pagan do that?

You said that Constantine's baptism was the remission of sins.  Baptism in the EO church also brings somebody who is not baptized into the church body.

Thus if Constantine made the decree "before he was baptized", then the EO church allowed a pagan to dictate the church's day of worship.   If he was an EO Christian, then he was unbaptized when he made the decree.

Either way, he made the decree and was an unbaptized EO Christian OR a pagan.

St. Constantine's baptism washed away any pagan nonsense from his past, whether he had worshiped Sol Invictus, put him on coins, or what have you.

The decree, once more, did not concern any church's day of worship and simply mandated a day of rest for some portion of the Empire's workforce. That is all.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Nephi

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2014, 08:11:20 PM »
Thus if Constantine made the decree "before he was baptized", then the EO church allowed a pagan to dictate the church's day of worship.

SDA's will insist (I'm assuming you're using their literature?) that St. Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday. You're insisting that he changed the "church's day of worship [to Sunday]" without qualifying what you mean by "day of worship." Do you mean the Sabbath day? Do you mean the "day of the week that's more observed [likely an arbitrary or heavily subjective measure] than the rest?" Or something else?

And do explain how St. Constantine, through enacting a "day of rest" (which, as Hawkeye commented, can arguably have nothing to do with direct Christian religious observance), actually effected a doctrinal change on the local church level (including those Churches outside of the Empire).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 08:13:08 PM by Nephi »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2014, 08:15:21 PM »
they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.

Come on, Yesh, peddle whatever you like but please stop with this nonsense about St. Constantine and the Sabbath.

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the nonsense is.

1) Constantine worshiped the sun God Sol-Invictus
2) Constantine had him on his coin
3) Constantine built his arch, dedicated to the Sun God http://www.colgate.edu/portaldata/imagegallerywww/fab2bcd8-33c3-4d30-a266-ead051c8383b/ImageGallery/FramingtheSun.pdf
4) Constantine kept the sun god on his coin post Nicea
5) Constantine changed the Sabbath rest to SUNday, which he called venerable http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch03.htm

You can't change God's law.  Even Paul cited he kept the law.   Constantine changed the day of rest to SUNday.  I don't know what else to say.  You can grunt and cast the info off, but it's a reality.

All that Sol-Invictus Sun God stuff was before Constantine's baptism, right? Is not baptism for the remission of sins?

As to Constantine's decree on Sunday rest, I'll assume you mean this one:

Quote
All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun. Country people, however, may freely attend to the cultivation of the fields, because it frequently happens that no other days are better adapted for planting the grain in the furrows or the vines in trenches. So that the advantage given by heavenly providence may not for the occasion of a short time perish.

As I have noted in the past, this says nothing about the Sabbath nor Christianity and the only connection between this decree and the Church was the fact that its issuer was a Christian sympathizer. All he did here was mandate an Empire-wide day of rest without recourse to any specific religion and he certainly didn't move the Sabbath to Sunday.

I'll repeat a question I asked you in the past but for which I got no reply: had any other emperor prior to Constantine issued this very same decree, could he have been accused of having changed the Sabbath day as well?
Hawkeye, so you are saying that before his baptism that the EO church allowed a Roman Pagan to dictate the day of worship for the church?

The irony runs wild.   

When did a Roman Pagan do that?

You said that Constantine's baptism was the remission of sins.  Baptism in the EO church also brings somebody who is not baptized into the church body.

Thus if Constantine made the decree "before he was baptized", then the EO church allowed a pagan to dictate the church's day of worship.   If he was an EO Christian, then he was unbaptized when he made the decree.

Either way, he made the decree and was an unbaptized EO Christian OR a pagan.

St. Constantine's baptism washed away any pagan nonsense from his past, whether he had worshiped Sol Invictus, put him on coins, or what have you.

The decree, once more, did not concern any church's day of worship and simply mandated a day of rest for some portion of the Empire's workforce. That is all.

It was much more than that.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SgtOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA380#v=onepage&q&f=false

Sure, I believe a baptism washed away his "pagan nonsense" from the past.  But the arguments stands.  His pagan nonsense CHANGED the Sabbath day and the church accepted it.  He even kept the day's pagan name and called it "venerable day of the Sun".
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2014, 08:27:37 PM »
Yeshua is one of the only members here who still keeps this place interesting. Keep up the good work!

I for one agree with him. I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2014, 08:27:48 PM »
St. Constantine's baptism washed away any pagan nonsense from his past, whether he had worshiped Sol Invictus, put him on coins, or what have you.

The decree, once more, did not concern any church's day of worship and simply mandated a day of rest for some portion of the Empire's workforce. That is all.

It was much more than that.
http://books.google.com/books?id=SgtOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA380#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'll concede that the decree might have been issued in response to his growing Christianity but, as this book notes, Christians were already resting on Sunday and he was simply accommodating them and was certainly not imposing anything on the Church which it had not imposed upon itself at some earlier point in time.

Sure, I believe a baptism washed away his "pagan nonsense" from the past.  But the arguments stands.  His pagan nonsense CHANGED the Sabbath day and the church accepted it.  

Does the Church not refer to Saturday as the Sabbath even to this day? We certainly do in Russian.

He even kept the day's pagan name and called it "venerable day of the Sun".

So? He and the vast majority of his citizens were still pagans right? It only made sense to keep up the charade.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 08:28:29 PM by Hawkeye »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #128 on: June 14, 2014, 08:36:18 PM »
Thus if Constantine made the decree "before he was baptized", then the EO church allowed a pagan to dictate the church's day of worship.

SDA's will insist (I'm assuming you're using their literature?) that St. Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday. You're insisting that he changed the "church's day of worship [to Sunday]" without qualifying what you mean by "day of worship." Do you mean the Sabbath day? Do you mean the "day of the week that's more observed [likely an arbitrary or heavily subjective measure] than the rest?" Or something else?

And do explain how St. Constantine, through enacting a "day of rest" (which, as Hawkeye commented, can arguably have nothing to do with direct Christian religious observance), actually effected a doctrinal change on the local church level (including those Churches outside of the Empire).

On the 7th day God rested.

QUOTE:
Constantine's decree  - "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost...

Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time." The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
END:

It was his decree.
I've given a link for 63 reasons to keep the Sabbath.

You were commanded in the 4th Commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.

Through Judaism and early Christians, they kept Sabbath as the day of worship and rest.  Which day do you keep as the day of rest?  The day of Constantine's decree or the day God appointed for you to.

The proof is in the pudding.  You'll be resting tomorrow as well as engaging in liturgy.

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Offline Nephi

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #129 on: June 14, 2014, 08:37:09 PM »
Sure, I believe a baptism washed away his "pagan nonsense" from the past.  But the arguments stands.  His pagan nonsense CHANGED the Sabbath day and the church accepted it.  

Does the Church not refer to Saturday as the Sabbath even to this day? We certainly do in Russian.

It's Western Sabbatarian (particularly SDA) nonsense that presupposes 1) Roman Catholicism was what quickly developed after the Great Apostasy, 2) that Papal Rome dominated the entire Imperial Church, and 3) the Church was completely in cahoots with the Roman Empire. As such, since Roman Catholicism does believe that the solemnity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, you end up with these sorts of comments that conveniently ignore the rest of Christianity.

This particularly striking (and clearly inaccurate) description from Ellen White's Great Controversy (pg. 53) demonstrates what I mean:

Quote
In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. (See Appendix.) The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually led to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment.

The archdeceiver had not completed his work. He was resolved to gather the Christian world under his banner and to exercise his power through his vicegerent, the proud pontiff who claimed to be the representative of Christ. Through half-converted pagans, ambitious prelates, and world-loving churchmen he accomplished his purpose. Vast councils were held from time to time, in which the dignitaries of the church were convened from all the world. In nearly every council the Sabbath which God had instituted was pressed down a little lower, while the Sunday was correspondingly exalted. Thus the pagan festival came finally to be honored as a divine institution, while the Bible Sabbath was pronounced a relic of Judaism, and its observers were declared to be accursed.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2014, 08:40:30 PM »
Yeshua is one of the only members here who still keeps this place interesting. Keep up the good work!

I for one agree with him. I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.

Thank you James.   As a point though, I LOVE to discuss stuff, unfortunately I get in to too much argument.  :'(  

The RC church is incredibly corrupt.  I believe parts of the EO church unfortunately got sapped into pagan customs & traditions.  If they ever united communions, it would be TOO much.  LOL.

Oh and here is a documentary, you were asking about Mary once -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3N4E-TNYdA

It was badly ripped, and the vid quality low (it's free copyright).  But very good information.  For us 1970's & 1980's folks, the quality looked normal.  LOL
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #131 on: June 14, 2014, 08:43:47 PM »
On the 7th day God rested.

QUOTE:
Constantine's decree  - "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost...

Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time." The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
END:

It was his decree.
I've given a link for 63 reasons to keep the Sabbath.

You were commanded in the 4th Commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.

Utterly irrelevant to my questions.

Quote
Through Judaism and early Christians, they kept Sabbath as the day of worship and rest.

Oh, but which Jews/Christians? Where? How do you define "worship and rest?" What period(s)? You should realize you're making sweeping generalizations of Judaism and early Christianity that you can't possibly account for, especially if you're relying upon 19th century German (i.e. Lutheran/post-Lutheran) scholarship that's beyond anachronistic.

Although this still didn't answer my questions.

Quote
Which day do you keep as the day of rest?  The day of Constantine's decree or the day God appointed for you to.

The proof is in the pudding.  You'll be resting tomorrow as well as engaging in liturgy.

Again, what does this have to do with my questions?

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #132 on: June 14, 2014, 08:49:49 PM »
Sure, I believe a baptism washed away his "pagan nonsense" from the past.  But the arguments stands.  His pagan nonsense CHANGED the Sabbath day and the church accepted it.  

Does the Church not refer to Saturday as the Sabbath even to this day? We certainly do in Russian.

It's Western Sabbatarian (particularly SDA) nonsense that presupposes 1) Roman Catholicism was what quickly developed after the Great Apostasy, 2) that Papal Rome dominated the entire Imperial Church, and 3) the Church was completely in cahoots with the Roman Empire. As such, since Roman Catholicism does believe that the solemnity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, you end up with these sorts of comments that conveniently ignore the rest of Christianity.

This particularly striking (and clearly inaccurate) description from Ellen White's Great Controversy (pg. 53) demonstrates what I mean:

Quote
In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. (See Appendix.) The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually led to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment.

The archdeceiver had not completed his work. He was resolved to gather the Christian world under his banner and to exercise his power through his vicegerent, the proud pontiff who claimed to be the representative of Christ. Through half-converted pagans, ambitious prelates, and world-loving churchmen he accomplished his purpose. Vast councils were held from time to time, in which the dignitaries of the church were convened from all the world. In nearly every council the Sabbath which God had instituted was pressed down a little lower, while the Sunday was correspondingly exalted. Thus the pagan festival came finally to be honored as a divine institution, while the Bible Sabbath was pronounced a relic of Judaism, and its observers were declared to be accursed.

So if you have those such as Polycarp worshipping on the Sabbath, and the link I provided where many times the Sabbath was noted in the NT, then you have to analyze what day you worship on.

Here:
QUOTE:
The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. It begins with an Edict of Constantine, the first Christian emperor, who forbade judges to sit and townspeople to work on Sunday. He made an exception in favour of agriculture. The breaking of the law of Sunday rest was punished by the Anglo-Saxon legislation in England like other crimes and misdemeanours.
END QUOTE:
SOURCE: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14335a.htm

His edict grew into a larger vererable day of the sun "sabbath".
From the RC church itself.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #133 on: June 14, 2014, 08:53:30 PM »
On the 7th day God rested.

QUOTE:
Constantine's decree  - "On the Venerable Day of the Sun ["venerabili die Solis"--the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost...

Given the 7th day of March, [A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time." The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in "Codex Justinianus," lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff "History of the Christian Church," Vol. 3, p. 380.
END:

It was his decree.
I've given a link for 63 reasons to keep the Sabbath.

You were commanded in the 4th Commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy.

Utterly irrelevant to my questions.

Quote
Through Judaism and early Christians, they kept Sabbath as the day of worship and rest.

Oh, but which Jews/Christians? Where? How do you define "worship and rest?" What period(s)? You should realize you're making sweeping generalizations of Judaism and early Christianity that you can't possibly account for, especially if you're relying upon 19th century German (i.e. Lutheran/post-Lutheran) scholarship that's beyond anachronistic.

Although this still didn't answer my questions.

Quote
Which day do you keep as the day of rest?  The day of Constantine's decree or the day God appointed for you to.

The proof is in the pudding.  You'll be resting tomorrow as well as engaging in liturgy.

Again, what does this have to do with my questions?

Above link states the opinion from the RC church and how Constantine's decree grew into the Sunday worship (1st day).  EO Christians today worship & rest on Sunday, and generally are allowed to work on Saturday (7th day).

He made that decree as a pagan, and contributed at Nicea as a pagan when he changed the date of passover and pushed Christmas (day of the re-birth of his sun god sol-invictus).   YHWH, told us the feasts are forever (see Leviticus 23).
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #134 on: June 14, 2014, 09:49:05 PM »
I am probably going to spend far more time on this debate than what it warrants, but here it goes.

The Sabbath was given to the Jews. It is not a universal obligation. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not observe the Sabbath that we know of. No one until Moses was even aware of Sabbath keeping.  Scripture links it to the Jews directly.

Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed” (Exodus 31:16–17).

And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15).

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)

As you will recall, Christ fulfilled the Law.  We are not bound to the Law. There was a perpetual covenant with Israel until Christ came and fulfilled it. Christians have a higher calling. It is a misnomer to say we moved the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. We are called to worship God everyday. Sunday is the Lord's Day when we celebrate His death and resurrection, but it is not the "Christian Day of Rest". Further, there is not a single time in Scripture that a non-Jew is called to adhere to the Sabbath. Lastly, despite what you may think about Justin Martyr, the argument against its validity tenuous at best.  But even before Justin Martyr, we see the first century writing, Epistle of Barnabas say:

We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8)

Ignatius says:
Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9.)

The Didache states:
And on the Lord's own day gather yourselves together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.  And let no man, having his dispute with his fellow, join your assembly until they have been reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be defiled; for this sacrifice it is that was spoken of by the Lord. (paragraph 14)

All of these writings preceded St. Constantine and it is clear that the celebration of the Lord's Day (aka Resurrection Day, aka Sunday) was not foreign to early Christians.

It now comes to contemplate what exactly St. Constantine did when he pronounced Sunday to be a universal day of rest.  You must remember that he ruled not just Christians, but also a very large pagan element in the Empire. He very likely observed that both Christians and pagans found the first day of the week to be sacred and therefore codified it as a day of rest. There is no evidence that he was attempting to merge Christianity into paganism.  If indeed that was his plan, he did a very poor job of it and there would have been numerous other methods by which he would have had more success with such an endeavor.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 09:53:24 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!

Offline Nephi

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2014, 10:07:44 PM »
^I would be careful not to make a disconnect between the Old and New. I believe, as an Orthodox priest-professor explained to me better than I can repeat,  that Christ fulfilled all of the Torah,  the Sabbath,  and the Feasts perfectly as they are in their highest and truest sense (i.e. not as the Pharisees understood, for example his comments against hating and an eye for eye). Importantly, as Christians baptized into the body of Christ we participate in all of his salvific acts. Just as we participate in his death and resurrection and receive the changes effected in human nature as our own, so we also participate in his perfect fulfillment of the Sabbath and the Torah in their most true sense. In other words, in Christ we have fulfilled and obeyed the Torah and God's commandments and his Sabbath, because it was otherwise impossible for anyone but Jesus to do so perfectly.

There's a bit more that ties it into the "now but not-yet" stuff as well.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2014, 10:26:18 PM »
Quote
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

St. Justin Martyr states in 150 AD that worship is done on Sunday. How do you explain that?

Real quick but gotta run-
Yup. Hit and run. That's all this really is. Hit and run.

PtA, I can't argue all day, but the link I posted should give you more than a "run".
An essay published by an arm of one of the biggest modern-day opponents of Sunday worship hardly passes muster for good, objective scholarship.

But you only have one source, and it is contested - placed at the very end of Justin Martyr's work.
We have only one source? I guess we do. The Tradition of the Church is our source, the one source to which all others bear witness. We do, however, have a number of sources that bear witness to the place of Sunday worship in Tradition even as early as the 1st and 2nd centuries, as TheTrisagion so adroitly points out.

The document tears it apart.
I suppose you will believe it does. Considering its source, I'm not so convinced.

Here's 63 reasons to keep the Sabbath.
http://messianicpublications.com/robert-roy/reasons-to-keep-the-7th-day/

EDIT - AND EVERY reason is backed with scripture.  
Even the devil backed his temptations of Christ with scripture.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:45:55 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2014, 10:34:57 PM »
Sure, I believe a baptism washed away his "pagan nonsense" from the past.  But the arguments stands.  His pagan nonsense CHANGED the Sabbath day and the church accepted it.  

Does the Church not refer to Saturday as the Sabbath even to this day? We certainly do in Russian.

It's Western Sabbatarian (particularly SDA) nonsense that presupposes 1) Roman Catholicism was what quickly developed after the Great Apostasy, 2) that Papal Rome dominated the entire Imperial Church, and 3) the Church was completely in cahoots with the Roman Empire. As such, since Roman Catholicism does believe that the solemnity of the Sabbath was transferred to Sunday, you end up with these sorts of comments that conveniently ignore the rest of Christianity.

This particularly striking (and clearly inaccurate) description from Ellen White's Great Controversy (pg. 53) demonstrates what I mean:

Quote
In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. (See Appendix.) The day of the sun was reverenced by his pagan subjects and was honored by Christians; it was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity. He was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who, inspired by ambition and thirst for power, perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. But while many God-fearing Christians were gradually led to regard Sunday as possessing a degree of sacredness, they still held the true Sabbath as the holy of the Lord and observed it in obedience to the fourth commandment.

The archdeceiver had not completed his work. He was resolved to gather the Christian world under his banner and to exercise his power through his vicegerent, the proud pontiff who claimed to be the representative of Christ. Through half-converted pagans, ambitious prelates, and world-loving churchmen he accomplished his purpose. Vast councils were held from time to time, in which the dignitaries of the church were convened from all the world. In nearly every council the Sabbath which God had instituted was pressed down a little lower, while the Sunday was correspondingly exalted. Thus the pagan festival came finally to be honored as a divine institution, while the Bible Sabbath was pronounced a relic of Judaism, and its observers were declared to be accursed.

So if you have those such as Polycarp worshipping on the Sabbath, and the link I provided where many times the Sabbath was noted in the NT, then you have to analyze what day you worship on.
So Polycarp worshiped on the Sabbath. He probably also worshiped on the Lord's Day and every day in between.

Here:
QUOTE:
The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries. A Council of Laodicea, held toward the end of the fourth century, was content to prescribe that on the Lord's Day the faithful were to abstain from work as far as possible. At the beginning of the sixth century St. Caesarius, as we have seen, and others showed an inclination to apply the law of the Jewish Sabbath to the observance of the Christian Sunday. The Council held at Orléans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian. From the eight century the law began to be formulated as it exists at the present day, and the local councils forbade servile work, public buying and selling, pleading in the law courts, and the public and solemn taking of oaths. There is a large body of civil legislation on the Sunday rest side by side with the ecclesiastical. It begins with an Edict of Constantine, the first Christian emperor, who forbade judges to sit and townspeople to work on Sunday. He made an exception in favour of agriculture. The breaking of the law of Sunday rest was punished by the Anglo-Saxon legislation in England like other crimes and misdemeanours.
END QUOTE:
SOURCE: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14335a.htm

His edict grew into a larger vererable day of the sun "sabbath".
From the RC church itself.
So you can cherry pick from the New Advent web site whatever proof suits your fancy. Doesn't prove anything to me.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:35:17 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2014, 10:44:55 PM »
Yeshua is one of the only members here who still keeps this place interesting. Keep up the good work!

I for one agree with him.
On what? That we should be reluctant to enter into reunion with Rome? Then you also agree with most of us, who argue that there are plenty of reasons to resist reunion with Rome at this time.

I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:57:56 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #139 on: June 14, 2014, 10:55:44 PM »
^I would be careful not to make a disconnect between the Old and New. I believe, as an Orthodox priest-professor explained to me better than I can repeat,  that Christ fulfilled all of the Torah,  the Sabbath,  and the Feasts perfectly as they are in their highest and truest sense (i.e. not as the Pharisees understood, for example his comments against hating and an eye for eye). Importantly, as Christians baptized into the body of Christ we participate in all of his salvific acts. Just as we participate in his death and resurrection and receive the changes effected in human nature as our own, so we also participate in his perfect fulfillment of the Sabbath and the Torah in their most true sense. In other words, in Christ we have fulfilled and obeyed the Torah and God's commandments and his Sabbath, because it was otherwise impossible for anyone but Jesus to do so perfectly.

There's a bit more that ties it into the "now but not-yet" stuff as well.
I hope I did not give the impression of a disconnect.  My emphasis was intended to be that Christ was the fulfillment of the Law. There is no Sabbath Day now because Christ is our Sabbath just like there is no animal sacrifice because Christ fulfilled it. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was reconciled through Christ. The obligations given to the Jews were for the preservation of the oracles of God. Those oracles and prophesies have been fulfilled.  At the same time, however, we also need to recognize that the Law was not given to all, it was given to the Jews. It is just as wrong to try and force modern day Christians to follow the Law as it would be to force gentiles before Christ's coming to follow the Law.
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #140 on: June 14, 2014, 11:10:39 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #141 on: June 14, 2014, 11:13:50 PM »
Jesus prayed for "them" the people. 

Prove it from Scripture.  Prove that Jesus prayed for "the people", and prove "which people" they were. 

Quote
The RCC is an institution.  We do not have to "forgive" an institution, it is not a human.

Where does it say that in Scripture? 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #142 on: June 14, 2014, 11:30:10 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

LOL!!!
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #143 on: June 15, 2014, 11:37:26 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 

I need to stop reading this thread.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #144 on: June 15, 2014, 11:41:10 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 

I need to stop reading this thread.

Tell the truth: Peter's comment drove you over the edge. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2014, 11:51:39 PM »
I don't want a bunch of one-hour Mass, Hindu-marrying Roman Catholics in my Church. They're the same people who drove my mother into Protestantism.
I don't want a bunch of know-it-all, masturbating sinners in my church. They're the same people who drove my father to take up drinking.

I don't want to know which sinners in my church are masturbating.  I just don't. 

I need to stop reading this thread.

Tell the truth: Peter's comment drove you over the edge. 
;D
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #146 on: June 17, 2014, 04:28:59 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments? 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #147 on: June 17, 2014, 11:14:07 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments?  
Why does this thread have to end here? Then again, maybe yesh can let it end here so we don't have to put up with his nonsense. ;) But he probably won't. :(
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:14:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #148 on: June 17, 2014, 11:15:59 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments?  
Why does this thread have to end here? Then again, maybe yesh can let it end here so we don't have to put up with his nonsense. ;) But he probably won't. :(

Does it bother some folks to stay on topic?  Why do we morph into this stuff?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #149 on: June 17, 2014, 11:17:27 AM »
Because we get bored with the original topic. Internet forums are pretty much like any conversation. They bounce all around and go in directions you don't really expect.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2014, 11:23:03 AM »
What percentage of threads end in masturbation comments?  
Why does this thread have to end here? Then again, maybe yesh can let it end here so we don't have to put up with his nonsense. ;) But he probably won't. :(

Does it bother some folks to stay on topic?  Why do we morph into this stuff?
Because people like to drive a thread further off topic by complaining about how it's gone off topic. ;) If you really want to get this thread back on topic, all you have to do is engage one of the many points yesh has posted on this thread. It's really not that hard.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:27:36 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #151 on: June 17, 2014, 11:41:17 AM »
I'll add something about my ecumenistic outlook, as something of a clarification. I am fully in favor of ecumenism, dialogue, lovey dovey meetings, flowery exchanges about love, etc. Part of the reason is what I mentioned in this post:

When a couple separate and there are problems to work through, the first step is often simply meeting in friendly, no pressure situations. Forcing things, making demands, giving ultimatums, etc. can be counter-productive until certain other things are established: good will, sincerity, civilty, compassion, readiness to understand and cooperate, etc. The fractures in the relationship cannot be fixed until mutual respect, trust, and hope have been reestablished.

I know some people think that the Church shouldn't be influenced in its methods or approach by the culture or context it finds itself in. I disagree. I think history shows this to be false as well. Scripture says to be "as wise as serpents and innocent as doves," and that sometimes we must "become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." This means that there are times when the situation we find ourselves in requires us to do things that haven't been done, and which some might say shouldn't be done, but which we must do so as to fulfill the great commission and reach the world  (as God guides).

An example. In the fourth century the Orthodox were fighting a battle against Arianism, and really not doing so well. One step that was taken to gain an upper hand was that St. Basil consecrated everyone and their brother bishops, placing them in places which had no justifiable need for a bishop. Both St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory the Theologian were made such bishops of backwater towns, and both were quite annoyed. It must have also seemed like little more than a power grab to some, multiplying bishops in this way. Was not Nicene theology strong enough to stand on its own? Were such political/administrative tactics really necessary? How worldly! But yet, such a tactic was necessary and beneficial. Perhaps not the best case scenario, perhaps not what we'd want in a perfect world, but St. Basil and others worked with the situation they found themselves in in the best way they could.*

Now regarding ecumenism, I am fully in favor of it, even willingly excusing some of its excesses (though I certainly have limits and reservations). However, this does not mean that I see the end result of all this touchy feely ecumenism being an unthinking, uncritical, and easy slide into communion. I fully agree that the differences--and I think there are quite difficult ones--must be resolved before there can be any real talk of making reconciliation a reality. And these differences cannot be resolved by letting each side believe as it wants when talking among their own group, but be over-accommodating and fudging the truth and beating around the bush when talking to the other group. Until things like papal infallibility and papal supremacy are resolved to the satisfaction of all the local Churches, in agreement with each other, there can be no talk of intercommunion and such.

Nonetheless, we live in ecumenically-toned times, especially in the west. We live in times when being polemical and harsh and rigid is understood--or sometimes misunderstood--as being unloving, unkind, etc. Well so be it. The Church can condescend to speak to the culture on its own terms. There can be no compromise of truth, but there can be condescension to weakness (and the Orthodox are included in having this weakness). "For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." For moderns the unknown God is tolerance, gentleness, irenic communication, etc. Well that is where we will start then, and eventually everyone can be brought to the fullness of the truth, at the pace that such is possible, by God's grace and our cooperation.



*EDIT--As another example from St. Basil, he took resources and money from an Arian emperor to help his charitable works (hospital, etc.)  This was the same emperor that was traveling around the empire deposing/eliminating Nicene bishops. Sometimes we must do what is necessary for the greater good.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 11:51:10 AM by Justin Kissel »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2014, 12:28:38 AM »
The greater good is indeed much of what the Church is about, and Rome has not had a very good track record as shepherd. If they have been returning in spirit to the spirit of the ancient Fathers, of joining in the works of God who alone loves mankind, then I think ecumenism could be a blessed goal.
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