Author Topic: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?  (Read 13211 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« on: June 10, 2014, 02:27:52 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2014, 02:34:26 PM »
I'd rather have RCs than Anabaptists.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 02:43:15 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
Why do you insist on living so far in the past, Yesh?
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Offline Yurysprudentsiya

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 02:58:51 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
Why do you insist on living so far in the past, Yesh?

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 03:07:33 PM »
What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 03:07:48 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 03:17:11 PM »
What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Probably the movie, History of the World, Part 2...as related by Mel Brooks...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZegQYgygdw&feature=kp

Offline Alpo

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2014, 03:23:37 PM »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2014, 03:30:51 PM »
agitprop

I didn't know that this is an English word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOPHimXYf4o

Yeah, I learned about it years ago in college in the early 1970's....

The US Holocaust Museum in Washington had a marvelous and chilling exhibition about Agitprop , the National Socialists, Bolsheviks and links to modern political campaigning and what modern 'civil' political campaigns learned from the likes of the Germans and Soviets...not so crude but effective...

Offline WPM

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2014, 03:38:32 PM »
What's Ecumenism? ... 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 03:39:46 PM by WPM »
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2014, 04:05:46 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2014, 04:23:48 PM »
What's Ecumenism? ... 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/ecumenism?q=ecumenism

ecumenism
Syllabification: ec·u·me·nism
Pronunciation: /ˈekyəməˌnizəm, eˈkyo͝omə-
 
/
noun

    The principle or aim of promoting unity among the world’s Christian churches.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2014, 04:37:52 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2014, 05:04:45 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:06:01 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2014, 05:09:11 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 05:12:14 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2014, 07:05:13 PM »

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
No fair!  I was going to post that after reading his post and then I saw you stole it.  >:(  :laugh:
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2014, 07:34:59 PM »

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
No fair!  I was going to post that after reading his post and then I saw you stole it.  >:(  :laugh:
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2014, 10:27:24 PM »
What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2014, 10:29:46 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2014, 10:32:58 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2014, 10:35:22 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.

Yeah. I know what it's about, and it's all historically unfounded and a giant propaganda piece.

What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.

Yeah, they are. And yes, the more orthodox Protestants and Romans killed them, because they were really out of line.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2014, 10:37:13 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

You should add "Donatist" to your jumbled faith.   :P
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2014, 10:40:48 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2014, 10:42:44 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.
The Anabaptists were just as much a part of the 16th-century protest movement against the Roman church as were the Lutherans and the Calvinists. That makes them Protestant.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2014, 10:45:24 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.

Yeah. I know what it's about, and it's all historically unfounded and a giant propaganda piece.

What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.

Yeah, they are. And yes, the more orthodox Protestants and Romans killed them, because they were really out of line.

A propaganda piece... Awkward, as it is loaded with "Eastern Orthodox" martyrs too.  Ah well.
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Offline ZealousZeal

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2014, 10:46:47 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

If they don't have apostolic succession, it has nothing to do with that. But for the sake of the argument, let's assume that they do and let's assume that the account that you posted from Martyr's Mirror is accurate. We know God has a track record of using sinful people for His purposes (Abraham, Moses, David, Jonah, St. Peter, St. Paul, etc. etc.), so why would it be so hard to believe that a group of just such sinful people could make up His Church?

And PS- God directly caused and also ordered the killing of men, women, and children plenty of times in the OT. I feel the need to point that out.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2014, 10:47:24 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
I live in an area that has a pretty high anabaptist population. Lancaster County, PA is right next to us and has many Amish and Mennonite communities.  I have a lot of respect for the anabaptists. Throughout history, they have done a very good job of holding to their ideals in the face of persecution. I disagree with others who say they are protestants. They are/were not protestants, but did arrive on the scene at the same time and thrived because of all the religious confusion that was going on at the time. All that being said, I strongly disagree with their theology.  They hold to a solo scriptura mentality and take it to lengths that even Luther and Calvin would never have considered. They face the same legitimacy issues that protestants face.  They appeared on the scene 1500 years after the time of Christ espousing teachings that Christians for 1500 years never held to and their typical response to that problem is a Landmarkian response of attempting to find scattered groups here and there throughout history that held some similar beliefs to theirs. It is bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2014, 10:49:05 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2014, 10:49:44 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.

Yeah. I know what it's about, and it's all historically unfounded and a giant propaganda piece.

What proof do you have that this actually occured and was sanctioned by the RCC? Protestant agitprop doesn't count.

Anabaptists were not protestants.  They were killed by protestants and catholics.

Yeah, they are. And yes, the more orthodox Protestants and Romans killed them, because they were really out of line.

A propaganda piece... Awkward, as it is loaded with "Eastern Orthodox" martyrs too.  Ah well.

I don't know how that's relevant to me, I am not Eastern Orthodox. I know propaganda when I see it.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2014, 10:57:42 PM »
If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

By this logic, you should reject Jesus, a loser with a bad family.  Look at his family tree.  Full of bad fruits. 
Good and messy.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2014, 10:58:29 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
I live in an area that has a pretty high anabaptist population. Lancaster County, PA is right next to us and has many Amish and Mennonite communities.  I have a lot of respect for the anabaptists. Throughout history, they have done a very good job of holding to their ideals in the face of persecution. I disagree with others who say they are protestants. They are/were not protestants, but did arrive on the scene at the same time and thrived because of all the religious confusion that was going on at the time. All that being said, I strongly disagree with their theology.  They hold to a solo scriptura mentality and take it to lengths that even Luther and Calvin would never have considered. They face the same legitimacy issues that protestants face.  They appeared on the scene 1500 years after the time of Christ espousing teachings that Christians for 1500 years never held to and their typical response to that problem is a Landmarkian response of attempting to find scattered groups here and there throughout history that held some similar beliefs to theirs. It is bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people.

The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

However, despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings, they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.  They are not perfect, and everybody has problems.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2014, 10:59:19 PM »
If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

By this logic, you should reject Jesus, a loser with a bad family.  Look at his family tree.  Full of bad fruits. 

Like YHWH?
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2014, 11:04:15 PM »
If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.

By this logic, you should reject Jesus, a loser with a bad family.  Look at his family tree.  Full of bad fruits. 

Like YHWH?

YHWH never appears in any of the canonical genealogies given in the Gospels.  Judah who slept with his daughter-in-law, David who was an adulterer, liar, and a murderer, Solomon with all the wives and the idol worship, etc., etc. all feature prominently, however.   
Good and messy.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2014, 11:07:43 PM »
I don't. But not for the reasons you don't Yesh.

Only because they engage in too much Ecumenism with Islam, Judaism and certain Protestant groups that shouldn't be recognized.

Their crimes are crimes, but that doesn't mean they are any less orthodox. They are still more orthodox than most groups in the world.

Also, that text, Martyr's Mirror is a Protestant propaganda piece. Let's try not to use garbage like that to prove a point.

It's not protestant.  You don't know what it is if you say that.  It's an anabaptist work and collection of martyr stories that have numerous sources including letters, county records, and documented church records.

FYI, it even talks about executions FROM protestants.

It's an amazing book.
I live in an area that has a pretty high anabaptist population. Lancaster County, PA is right next to us and has many Amish and Mennonite communities.  I have a lot of respect for the anabaptists. Throughout history, they have done a very good job of holding to their ideals in the face of persecution. I disagree with others who say they are protestants. They are/were not protestants, but did arrive on the scene at the same time and thrived because of all the religious confusion that was going on at the time. All that being said, I strongly disagree with their theology.  They hold to a solo scriptura mentality and take it to lengths that even Luther and Calvin would never have considered. They face the same legitimacy issues that protestants face.  They appeared on the scene 1500 years after the time of Christ espousing teachings that Christians for 1500 years never held to and their typical response to that problem is a Landmarkian response of attempting to find scattered groups here and there throughout history that held some similar beliefs to theirs. It is bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people.

The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

However, despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings, they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath.  They are not perfect, and everybody has problems.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2014, 11:13:03 PM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.

I believe that the apostolic succession is unbroken by the sins of men. If it could be broken by such a mortal thing, it wouldn't be legitimate.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2014, 12:00:56 AM »
[
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.

You forgot 'fascination with reproduction, making sure women don't get all uppity, or uncover themselves.'

honestly, consider Yesh's obsession with the tiniest mote of lust causing anything......its a very good thing he promoteslarge families, with the lack of control in this area....
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:01:22 AM by DeniseDenise »
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2014, 12:08:20 AM »
[
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

Eastern Orthodoxy as well has good fruit, to be fair.    I will say this though, when we go into an Anabaptist church and my family feels small, you know something is different.  Many have 8-14 children.  It is their joy to have them as blessings.  They are blessed beyond measure in this.

I can't say the same for most EO Christians here in America.  I'm not attacking here, it's just a reality of the situation.  Smaller families (I won't get into broken here).   There is fruit in the EO church, but the family end of the deal is not exactly as good of fruit (from my observation).
The anabaptists are perhaps how you envision early Christianity, but that doesn't make it so. Christianity has always been a sacramental, liturgical faith.  From the time of Christ to now.  Anabaptists are neither.  You can make all the excuses or theories up that you want, but you can't get around that and those two things are pretty major.

I know nice Mormons and also some nice Hindus.  I'm not about to jump on board with them because "by their fruit, you will know them."

Also, having large family might be nice and all, but Muslims have the same thing. I think you have more of a fascination with nostalgia than you do in theology.  Not trying to be mean, just an observation.

You forgot 'fascination with reproduction, making sure women don't get all uppity, or uncover themselves.'

honestly, consider Yesh's obsession with the tiniest mote of lust causing anything......its a very good thing he promotes large families, with the lack of control in this area....


Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2014, 12:10:24 AM »
Maybe we should start (once they come back to Orthodoxy) by having all the patriarchs vote for and elect their new patriarch and continue that for a few years till we make sure that they don't put another all powerful infallible man in place. That's a legitimate idea in my eyes. A part of me doesn't want communion with them due to thoughts of the inquisition, but that's a little un-Christian right? Its wrong to hold your catholic neighbor Bob accountable for the murders and tortures committed by men he probably doesn't even know about. The other part(probably the smarter part) says "ARE YOU KIDDING? WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT PEOPLE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST???!!!!!?!?!!?!" That side makes more sense. How would you not want millions of believers in Christ to be able to praise him perfectly, conduct his sacraments correctly, follow his teachings and those of the fathers of the Church that hasn't changed? Its the most simple thing. If someone were list every living person's name, and ask you if you wanted them to be orthodox, your answer should be yes EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I can think of a number of good reasons to not rush into resuming communion with the RC church today, but what they did to the Anabaptists 350 years ago is not one of those reasons.

So do you believe they still have apostolic succession even with the blood of Christians on their hands?  Men, women, and children's blood at that.
Again, Yesh, why do you insist so strongly on living in the past? To my knowledge, the RC Church has repented of its evil deeds done through such inquisitions. Jesus commanded us to forgive. So why do you still hold such a grudge?

As I said, if you will bother to read my reply, there are plenty of reasons why I do not support a rush to reunite. Your polemic is not one of them.

They are able to apologize and repent.  Certainly.  But by their own canon they are deposed and excommunicated for this stuff.
They deposed and excommunicated themselves for other offenses long before they set up the Inquisition. So why do you focus on the Inquisition? The truth be told, we Orthodox have not maintained a very clean record when it comes to how we've treated the heretics within our midst (e.g., the pogroms against the Jews, the Nikonian persecution of the Old Believers, etc.), so I would think it rather hypocritical for us to focus on the ugliness of the Roman inquisitions as you're trying to convince us to do.

Seriously, it's a prayer for a hot iron - and a well written one.  I left out the prayers for the boiling water, boiling oil, and the rack.  It's demented stuff.
Yes, it is, but are you without sin yourself?

We must know the past and the capabilities of the RC church.  We should know of its history.  No true church should be capable of such a thing.
As I said, the Orthodox have done similar things, so who are we to cast stones at the Catholics for their inquisitions?

If an addition of "and the son" and papal authority can split a church, then certainly burning "innocent" people with different views, torturing them and their families for years, and executing them is a good reason to stay parted.
Not when we're guilty of the same.

However, I still respect that you would not want to reunite with the RC church.
Yes, I have my reasons.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2014, 05:22:10 AM »
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)

The early Christians didn't use cars or watch TV either. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.

despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings

Apparently you know more than the patristic scholars.

As you stated "It is a bad history and bad theology, even if they are nice people".
Christ said "you will know them by their fruit".  (and it's not completely perfect)

But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values.  I'm generalizing, and certainly there are examples otherwise.

So do certain Muslim groups.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 05:22:23 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2014, 07:54:14 AM »
Quote
The Anabaptists are close to what I read in the writings of early Christians. (and I can back it up)
You dont need to back it up. We all believe that you are convinced that is what the early writings are, unfortunately history didn't start in 1521 so.......

Quote
However, despite the evident forgery of Justin Martyr's writings, they unfortunately (for the most part) kept Constantine's SUNday and think its the Sabbath
Insert the mark of the beast talk here....the people leading this charge about St. Justin are 7th day adventists (Andrews University IIRC)...not exactly the most unbiased of folks on this matter, which is why that study has yet to be accepted by any research university.

Quote
But in general I've witnessed LARGE wholesome families, with a lot of children that are well mannered and behaved - who fear God, and know biblical values
I do too...they're called American Muslims. Big deal. Big families don't equal big spirituality.

PP

« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:55:25 AM by primuspilus »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2014, 10:56:27 AM »
Quote
Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?

By all means!

Well, perhaps not all means, but "by many and varied means!" is not currently an idiom for the eager expression of approval, so I'll stick with the first one.
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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2014, 11:13:59 AM »
Quote
Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?

By all means!

Well, perhaps not all means, but "by many and varied means!" is not currently an idiom for the eager expression of approval, so I'll stick with the first one.

+1  It beats killing each other or misrepresenting what each other does or does not believe at its core  - which both sides have done a great deal of over the many centuries, pre and post schism.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2014, 11:32:59 AM »
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2014, 12:29:30 PM »
Here is a part of their history, including parts of their mass, during their Eucharist.

From Martyr's Mirror page 310.

BEGIN
The trial by red-hot iron. If a person charged with holding sentiments contrary to the doctrine of the Roman church, from fear of a cruel death, denied it, the accused was delivered into the hands and custody of a priest, who was to find out the truth. Before making the trial, then commonly called the ordeal, they together spent three days ostensibly in fasting and prayer. This done, they went together to the church, where the priest, in his sacerdotal attire, placed himself in front of the altar, upon which he laid a piece of iron, first chanting the song of the three children in the fiery furnace, "Praise the Lord, all His works," etc., and then pronouncing a blessing over the altar, and the fire in which the iron was to be laid. The iron, while heating on the coals, was repeatedly sprinkled with holy water, and in the meantime mass was read. When the priest took the wafer into his hand, he adjured the accused, praying meanwhile (ostensibly) to God that by His righteousness He would discover the truth of the matter, using among others these words

The priest's prayer over the red-hot iron.- "'Lord God I we pray Thee that Thou wouldst clearly manifest the truth in this Thy servant; Thou, O God, who hast in former times done great and wonderful signs by fire, among Thy people; who didst deliver Abraham, Thy son, from the fire of the Chaldeans by which many perished; who didst preserve Lot, Thy servant, when Sodom and Gomorrah were justly laid in the ashes by the fire; who, in the sending of the Holy Ghost by the light of fiery and flaming tongues, didst separate the believers from the unbelievers; grant us the grace, while we make this trial, that through this red-hot fire we may discover the truth. If this, Thy servant, who is now being tried, is guilty, let his hand be seared and burnt by the fire. But if, on the contrary, he is innocent, let him not be hurt by the fire. Lord God, to whom all secrets are known, however hid they are, fulfill, by Thy goodness, the expectation of our confidence and faith, while we make this examination; that the innocent may be acquitted; but the guilty detected and punished.', "When the priest had uttered this prayer," writes M. S. Boxhorn, p. 24,"he again sprinkled the redhot iron with holy water, and pronounced this blessing over it: 'The blessing of God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, come down upon this iron, that by it we may be enabled to pronounce a true judgment."'

How the iron was given into the hand of the accused.-This having been said, the flaming iron was given into the hand of the accused, who had to carry it nine paces. The hand was then closely wrapped up with cloth by the priest, and sealed, for three days, at the end of which it was inspected. If it was wounded, the accused was judged to be guilty; if not, he was acquitted.
END

Comment BEGIN
Oh, cruel inquisition I by which not only men, but even God was tried and tempted to the utmost."Thou shalt not," says Christ,"tempt the Lord thy God." Matt. 4:7.
Comment END

The Roman Catholic church literally tortured Christians and executed them in the most horrible and brutal ways.   Detailed prayers even over the devices of torture included.  It is part of their church & faith.  They violated nearly every commandment of God, the two greatest commandments, along with made martyrs of countless Christians.  They violated even their own cannons through their murders (most of which call for being deposed).

It confuses me every time that I see EO Patriarch Bartholomew wanting to "bridge gaps" through ecumenism with the church of the Roman Antichrist.  Would you want your communion linked with such a sadistic and satanic church?
Why do you insist on living so far in the past, Yesh?

Because NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

You win the thread.  Game over, guys.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:45:13 PM by Didyma »
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Offline Didyma

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Re: Do you really want ecumenism with the RC church?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2014, 12:44:42 PM »
Beyond forgiveness of past and repented-of transgressions (allegations of which come form a dubious source, in this case), there's also the fact that if the Roman Church were to be received into the Orthodox Catholic Church they would necessarily drop many canons, including this one (assuming it still exists, if it ever did).  Your problem here seems to disappear in the hypothetical situation. 
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