OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 10:20:38 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: First Visit to a Coptic Church Tomorrow  (Read 1493 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« on: June 07, 2014, 05:27:01 PM »

So it looks like I'll be visiting a Coptic church tomorrow, provided I don't get too anxious and back out. Wink

But really, does anyone have any last minute words of advice or encouragement? Apparently this parish does have Liturgy in English on Sundays (not sure how much English yet), so that'll be nice.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,800



« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 05:37:52 PM »

Don't stress about it and and don't bring any translations with you. Ask the Mother of God to take care of you and just pray with the rest of the parishioners. I recently visited Coptic baptism and liturgy and felt right at home. Coptic rite can't be that different.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,400


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 06:02:41 PM »

So it looks like I'll be visiting a Coptic church tomorrow, provided I don't get too anxious and back out. Wink

But really, does anyone have any last minute words of advice or encouragement? Apparently this parish does have Liturgy in English on Sundays (not sure how much English yet), so that'll be nice.

Don't sweat it too much, Copts are usually very friendly and accommodating in my experience.  And I have yet to go to one where the texts of the service are not made available to any and all, whether in book form or (horrors! Tongue) Powerpoint.  But don't worry if you get lost in the service, you'll figure it out eventually, and until then just find Jesus.   

Tomorrow's Pentecost, maybe one of the Copts here can explain if the service is any different, longer, etc.  If you were visiting one of our parishes, I'd tell you to brace yourself, it is one of our longest services. 

Anyway, make sure your socks don't have holes just in case you'll be without your shoes for a few hours.  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,800



« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 06:17:47 PM »

NVM.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 06:18:08 PM by Alpo » Logged

Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2014, 06:28:16 PM »

Don't stress about it and and don't bring any translations with you. Ask the Mother of God to take care of you and just pray with the rest of the parishioners. I recently visited Coptic baptism and liturgy and felt right at home. Coptic rite can't be that different.

Yeah, looking at their pictures it definitely feels familiar enough. Translations wouldn't be an issue since there are (or at least were a couple years ago) multilingual powerpoints.

But petitioning the Dei Genitrix is definitely a good idea as I wouldn't have thought to, thanks.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2014, 06:34:50 PM »

Don't sweat it too much, Copts are usually very friendly and accommodating in my experience.  And I have yet to go to one where the texts of the service are not made available to any and all, whether in book form or (horrors! Tongue) Powerpoint.  But don't worry if you get lost in the service, you'll figure it out eventually, and until then just find Jesus.

Yes, there are holy powerpoint presentations, so I shouldn't get too lost. Tongue

Quote
Tomorrow's Pentecost, maybe one of the Copts here can explain if the service is any different, longer, etc.  If you were visiting one of our parishes, I'd tell you to brace yourself, it is one of our longest services.  

Anyway, make sure your socks don't have holes just in case you'll be without your shoes for a few hours.  Smiley

 I'll definitely be prepared in the socks area. Wink But oops, I completely forgot it was even Pentecost. Is Pentecost liturgically that important in the Syriac tradition that it's so much longer than most else?


So... any Copts care to enlighten me as to what I'm getting myself into for the Pentecost service? angel
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 06:35:35 PM by Nephi » Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,304



« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2014, 07:03:26 PM »

Don't sweat it too much, Copts are usually very friendly and accommodating in my experience.  And I have yet to go to one where the texts of the service are not made available to any and all, whether in book form or (horrors! Tongue) Powerpoint.  But don't worry if you get lost in the service, you'll figure it out eventually, and until then just find Jesus.

Yes, there are holy powerpoint presentations, so I shouldn't get too lost. Tongue

Quote
Tomorrow's Pentecost, maybe one of the Copts here can explain if the service is any different, longer, etc.  If you were visiting one of our parishes, I'd tell you to brace yourself, it is one of our longest services.  

Anyway, make sure your socks don't have holes just in case you'll be without your shoes for a few hours.  Smiley

 I'll definitely be prepared in the socks area. Wink But oops, I completely forgot it was even Pentecost. Is Pentecost liturgically that important in the Syriac tradition that it's so much longer than most else?


So... any Copts care to enlighten me as to what I'm getting myself into for the Pentecost service? angel

Copts chant differently than Byzantines.

Here's a sample of a hymn of Monogenis o uios. Compare with Byzantine.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 07:19:06 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2014, 07:23:36 PM »

Brace yourself... Wink

Since it is a Feast Day, the priest will probably chant the Gregorian Liturgy (it's a longer liturgy).  Congregational responses will be in "joyful tunes".  The Matins might take a little longer on the account that it's a Feast day, but that depends on the parish practices.  There were will be hymns that would replace the Synexarium (it won't be read tomorrow) about the Holy Spirit and the Apostles, ending with the joyful beginning of the Trisagion.  Then the Gospel, then the sermon, then the Liturgy of the Word (this is where you will probably turn your pages to the Gregorian part).

During the Liturgy, Psalm 150 will be chanted with refrains in between reiterating that Christ ascended to the heavens and sent us the Paraclete.  After Psalm 150 is done, my favorite hymn will be chanted "Asomen".  It is usually chanted in four languages, Greek, Coptic, Arabic, and English, and there are 5 verses.  So 5 times 4, that makes 20.  If you have a good choir that ups the tune of this hymn, you'll enjoy it.  Smiley  (My pet peeve is finding a parish that is unwilling to strain their vocal cords for just 10 minutes on this hymn, and I grew up that way in Jersey City).

At the end, Abouna will be spraying everyone and give the concluding prayers.  If you start at 8AM, I think you might be able to finish by noon.  Wink  But some parishes might be faster.

Asomen:

http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1099
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 07:25:43 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2014, 07:43:40 PM »

I finally found the hymn the way it should be chanted:

https://soundcloud.com/bishoi546/asomen-english

The way it should not be chanted (in my not so humble opinion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ipqbiAvMo

Get my drift?  Wink (not the language, the tones themselves is what I'm getting at; the latter hymn doesn't just convince me that she is proclaiming "let us praise the Lord" with joy)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 07:46:29 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2014, 08:04:23 PM »

Brace yourself... Wink

Since it is a Feast Day, the priest will probably chant the Gregorian Liturgy (it's a longer liturgy).  Congregational responses will be in "joyful tunes".  The Matins might take a little longer on the account that it's a Feast day, but that depends on the parish practices.  There were will be hymns that would replace the Synexarium (it won't be read tomorrow) about the Holy Spirit and the Apostles, ending with the joyful beginning of the Trisagion.  Then the Gospel, then the sermon, then the Liturgy of the Word (this is where you will probably turn your pages to the Gregorian part).

During the Liturgy, Psalm 150 will be chanted with refrains in between reiterating that Christ ascended to the heavens and sent us the Paraclete.  After Psalm 150 is done, my favorite hymn will be chanted "Asomen".  It is usually chanted in four languages, Greek, Coptic, Arabic, and English, and there are 5 verses.  So 5 times 4, that makes 20.  If you have a good choir that ups the tune of this hymn, you'll enjoy it.  Smiley  (My pet peeve is finding a parish that is unwilling to strain their vocal cords for just 10 minutes on this hymn, and I grew up that way in Jersey City).

At the end, Abouna will be spraying everyone and give the concluding prayers. 
Asomen:

http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1099

Thank you very much, that's all pretty interesting. I'll have to visit again in a couple weeks so I have an idea of the comparison.

But the Gospel and sermon precede the Liturgy of the Word?

Quote
If you start at 8AM, I think you might be able to finish by noon.  Wink  But some parishes might be faster.

Oh, my. So when I emailed the priest he said liturgies were (on a normal Sunday, at least) from "10 to 11:45 AM." Does this mean the parish in question does not do Matins? Or is Matins always done on a feast day even if not done regularly? Because starting everything 10 AM would put the service's end around 2 PM...

I finally found the hymn the way it should be chanted:

https://soundcloud.com/bishoi546/asomen-english

The way it should not be chanted (in my not so humble opinion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ipqbiAvMo

Get my drift?  Wink (not the language, the tones themselves is what I'm getting at; the latter hymn doesn't just convince me that she is proclaiming "let us praise the Lord" with joy)

I'm not entirely sure what I'm listening for, but is it that the former sounds like he's more energetic? I'm pretty bad at music stuff. Tongue
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,400


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2014, 08:11:17 PM »

But the Gospel and sermon precede the Liturgy of the Word?

Mina probably meant "of the Eucharist". 

Quote
Oh, my. So when I emailed the priest he said liturgies were (on a normal Sunday, at least) from "10 to 11:45 AM." Does this mean the parish in question does not do Matins? Or is Matins always done on a feast day even if not done regularly? Because starting everything 10 AM would put the service's end around 2 PM...

In my limited experience, the start and end times they give are strictly for the Liturgy.  The local parish, for example, doesn't say on their website that Matins is 30-45 minutes before the listed start time, but you figure it out soon after you show up fifteen minutes early and find yourself half an hour late.  Tongue 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2014, 08:33:35 PM »

But the Gospel and sermon precede the Liturgy of the Word?

Mina probably meant "of the Eucharist".

Yeah, that makes sense. Tongue

Quote
In my limited experience, the start and end times they give are strictly for the Liturgy.  The local parish, for example, doesn't say on their website that Matins is 30-45 minutes before the listed start time, but you figure it out soon after you show up fifteen minutes early and find yourself half an hour late.  Tongue 

Ohh, okay. So then if I miss out on Matins, that puts the service at ending around 1 PM?
Logged
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,015


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2014, 08:34:10 PM »

Mina probably meant "of the Eucharist". 

I'm sure that's what he meant.  His explanation was spot on otherwise.

Anyway, make sure your socks don't have holes just in case you'll be without your shoes for a few hours.  Smiley

Yes.  Other than the Armenians, if you're going to be Oriental Orthodox, clean, hole free socks are a must for the gents, pedicures for the ladies.  laugh
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2014, 08:34:14 PM »

Sorry, two corrections:

Then the Gospel, then the sermon, then the Liturgy of the Faithful (...Gregorian...).

During the Eucharist, we chant Psalm 150....


I'm not entirely sure what I'm listening for, but is it that the former sounds like he's more energetic? I'm pretty bad at music stuff. Tongue

Precisely my dear Nephi...the energy.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 08:35:14 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,015


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2014, 08:36:57 PM »

During the Eucharist, we chant Psalm 150....

Let's hope it's just Psalm 150.  Wink
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2014, 08:37:05 PM »

Which parish is this if I may ask?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2014, 08:37:36 PM »

During the Eucharist, we chant Psalm 150....

Let's hope it's just Psalm 150.  Wink

No no! Let's hope it's just Psalm 150 AND Asomen  Smiley
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,400


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2014, 08:46:39 PM »

Ohh, okay. So then if I miss out on Matins, that puts the service at ending around 1 PM?

If the priest told you the Liturgy ends at 11.45am, it probably will end by that time or shortly thereafter.  The "actual start time" is, in my experience, a little more hard to pin down than the end. 

If all else fails, leave early if you must and just email the priest to explain why.  I've done it once or twice, and I've never been hated for it.  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2014, 08:56:15 PM »

Some priests like to give the end time around when they're distributing the Eucharist, so you might add like 30-45 minutes after the "proclaimed" end time.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,015


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2014, 09:03:38 PM »

No no! Let's hope it's just Psalm 150 AND Asomen  Smiley

Agreed.  No Very Early Sunday MorningGrin
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 09:04:38 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2014, 09:10:45 PM »

Which parish is this if I may ask?

St. Mina and St. Abanoub (I keep wanting to say Anaboub for some reason) in Miamisburg, OH. Their website hasn't really been updated much in the past two years it seems.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,400


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2014, 09:13:50 PM »

No no! Let's hope it's just Psalm 150 AND Asomen  Smiley

Agreed.  No Very Early Sunday MorningGrin

Oh man...that!

Is that a real liturgical hymn or a real "liturgical" hymn?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,015


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2014, 09:27:15 PM »


Oh man...that!

Is that a real liturgical hymn or a real "liturgical" hymn?

LOL!  The latter.  Maybe at the next Addis Ababa Synod we can agree to jettison such "hymns", you guys can dump the organs, and we can officially anathematize all of the "praise & worship" guys and Rick Warren pamphleteers.  Wink
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 09:29:42 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2014, 09:31:13 PM »

I've only ever been to one Coptic liturgy years ago, and I loved it. Very reverent and a pious people. Also extremely kind all around. Very welcoming. It was still "too foreign" for me to convert, however (I was "weighing in" all the ancient churches at the time).

Just don't try to receive communion when you are there.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2014, 09:46:19 PM »

Just don't try to receive communion when you are there.

Is that a warning or a directive? Wink

But I haven't even talked to the priest more than asking him what the times were and if any services were in English, so of course I wouldn't try to just go up and commune.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2014, 10:15:03 PM »

Have fun storming the castle Smiley
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,657


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2014, 10:18:15 PM »

I love that movie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjUmULa0R-8
Logged

minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2014, 10:27:29 PM »


Oh man...that!

Is that a real liturgical hymn or a real "liturgical" hymn?

LOL!  The latter.  Maybe at the next Addis Ababa Synod we can agree to jettison such "hymns", you guys can dump the organs, and we can officially anathematize all of the "praise & worship" guys and Rick Warren pamphleteers.  Wink

But that's not a Protestant hymn.  That has its roots as a "Copto-Arabic" hymn, and the translation is drastically different from Arabic to English.  It's just the same tune with different words.  In Arabic, it's not known as "Very Early Sunday Morning", but "You Alone Destroyed Death"
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 10:34:43 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,015


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2014, 11:16:30 PM »

But that's not a Protestant hymn.  That has its roots as a "Copto-Arabic" hymn, and the translation is drastically different from Arabic to English.  It's just the same tune with different words.  In Arabic, it's not known as "Very Early Sunday Morning", but "You Alone Destroyed Death"

It may be a Coptic/Arabic tune (I've always liked the melody) and I stand to be corrected, of course, but Remnkemi has asserted here and on tasbeha.org that the English lyrics at least are Protestant in origin (and possibly the Arabic as well).

Here's Rem's commentary from tasbeha.org:

Quote
...the English translation of Very early Sunday morning is Protestant. If you want details, I can explain. I think the Arabic translation is also Protestant (although I don't have proof that it actually came from a Protestant church...you hit one example on the nail and it is Protestant. Salvation in a moment is a Protestant heresy. If one doesn't firmly proclaim this, then one must read HH Pope Shenouda's book "The Heresy of Salvation in a moment".

Now look at the line, "The angels were singing welcoming our glorious Lord" Really? What imagery does that show? A happy welcoming home party for Jesus? This is what you find in Protestantism. Where is the fact that the angels cannot even look at Him because of the magnificence of His glory, much less act as if they are equals returning from separate paths?

Second, what is the point of the Resurrection? It is not simply to make me strong or work on my emotions. This hymn has many parts emphasizing fear, mourning, tears, disbelief and how Jesus fixes all that. There is no Orthodox theology. There is no mention of the Second Adam since most Protestants don't believe the first Adam was real. There is no mention of fulfilling any prophecy because fulfilling a 1000 year old prophecy doesn't make one happy or emotional charged. There is no mention of the Trinity in Resurrection. Let's not blind our eyes with emotionally charged songs that have little substance.

Third, there are obvious Scripture errors. Mary Magdalene did not look for Christ in the garden. She came to the tomb carrying fragrant oil to anoint the body. While she was crying Christ found her, not the other way around. And she did not tell the disciples, "He is risen. He is not here." The angel told that to the women. And what story did the angel tell? I don't see any story-telling angels in the scriptures. The angels weren't there to tell a story. They were sent to declare the Resurrection. They were sent to debunk the Pharisees' and Roman guards' claim that Christ's body was stolen. And what is "the thorns of death"? Is death a flower or a rose? The Scriptures say the "O death, where is your sting" alluding to the super-human power death has over human finality and human mortality. Death is not a desirable object that happens to inconveniently pricks you and all Christ needed to do was break the little thorns off death. 

And finally, since when did we become so anti-intellectual that we allow a song that has bad grammar? Verbs do not come after nouns in English. Ever. One cannot allow poetic license to the point that we can't even recognize minimum standards. If poetic license permits songs like this, then one cannot argue that rap is impermissible in the Orthodox church. And by conjecture, Evangelical worship would be granted the same poetic license.

The other song "In the midst of the raging sea" is exponentially worse. 
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2014, 12:17:33 AM »

But that's not a Protestant hymn.  That has its roots as a "Copto-Arabic" hymn, and the translation is drastically different from Arabic to English.  It's just the same tune with different words.  In Arabic, it's not known as "Very Early Sunday Morning", but "You Alone Destroyed Death"

It may be a Coptic/Arabic tune (I've always liked the melody) and I stand to be corrected, of course, but Remnkemi has asserted here and on tasbeha.org that the English lyrics at least are Protestant in origin (and possibly the Arabic as well).

Here's Rem's commentary from tasbeha.org:

Quote
...the English translation of Very early Sunday morning is Protestant. If you want details, I can explain. I think the Arabic translation is also Protestant (although I don't have proof that it actually came from a Protestant church...you hit one example on the nail and it is Protestant. Salvation in a moment is a Protestant heresy. If one doesn't firmly proclaim this, then one must read HH Pope Shenouda's book "The Heresy of Salvation in a moment".

Now look at the line, "The angels were singing welcoming our glorious Lord" Really? What imagery does that show? A happy welcoming home party for Jesus? This is what you find in Protestantism. Where is the fact that the angels cannot even look at Him because of the magnificence of His glory, much less act as if they are equals returning from separate paths?

Second, what is the point of the Resurrection? It is not simply to make me strong or work on my emotions. This hymn has many parts emphasizing fear, mourning, tears, disbelief and how Jesus fixes all that. There is no Orthodox theology. There is no mention of the Second Adam since most Protestants don't believe the first Adam was real. There is no mention of fulfilling any prophecy because fulfilling a 1000 year old prophecy doesn't make one happy or emotional charged. There is no mention of the Trinity in Resurrection. Let's not blind our eyes with emotionally charged songs that have little substance.

Third, there are obvious Scripture errors. Mary Magdalene did not look for Christ in the garden. She came to the tomb carrying fragrant oil to anoint the body. While she was crying Christ found her, not the other way around. And she did not tell the disciples, "He is risen. He is not here." The angel told that to the women. And what story did the angel tell? I don't see any story-telling angels in the scriptures. The angels weren't there to tell a story. They were sent to declare the Resurrection. They were sent to debunk the Pharisees' and Roman guards' claim that Christ's body was stolen. And what is "the thorns of death"? Is death a flower or a rose? The Scriptures say the "O death, where is your sting" alluding to the super-human power death has over human finality and human mortality. Death is not a desirable object that happens to inconveniently pricks you and all Christ needed to do was break the little thorns off death. 

And finally, since when did we become so anti-intellectual that we allow a song that has bad grammar? Verbs do not come after nouns in English. Ever. One cannot allow poetic license to the point that we can't even recognize minimum standards. If poetic license permits songs like this, then one cannot argue that rap is impermissible in the Orthodox church. And by conjecture, Evangelical worship would be granted the same poetic license.

The other song "In the midst of the raging sea" is exponentially worse. 
interesting stuff there Inigo Montoya. Hope you find the 6-6-6 fingered man who wrote this Wink
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2014, 12:57:34 AM »

Oh, so what's the difference between the Liturgy of St. Gregory and the regular Liturgy (St. Basil?)? Is it comparable to the difference between St John and St Basil in the Byzantine tradition?
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2014, 03:57:08 PM »

I almost decided I was too tired to go, but I managed to wake myself up enough to get ready. Tongue I got home not terribly long ago. The services didn't end until just a little after 1 PM (I got there at 10AM, which wasn't even the beginning...), since the Prostration prayers took place immediately after the Liturgy ended.

Anyway, I thought I would give some thoughts/comments/observations/questions:

1) I came in during the part of the service saying prayers for "Papa Abba Tawadros." Shortly after that the the Epistle was read. How late was I and what part of the service was that? I got there almost exactly at 10AM, so I was surprised that I seemed so late.

2) I noticed there are much fewer petitions to the Trinity in saying things like "Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" etc. like in the Byzantine tradition, so people signed themselves a lot less.

3) The Coptic kiss of peace was neat and much better than the kiss of peace I've seen at Catholic churches, although it did catch me off guard.

4) Shoes were only taken off by people going up to take communion, so my intense socks preparation was all in vain. Cheesy

5) The chanting was familiar to the Arabic Byzantine chanting I've heard at times, but at other times it took getting used to.

6) Cymbals are about the coolest thing ever.

7) The powerpoints are actually kind of convenient (when the altar servers can keep track of where the service is currently at Wink) compared to a book, since I don't have to keep looking down the whole time to read it.

8 ) When people went up to receive communion I noticed that the the deacon's doors/curtains were opened up, and men went in the left side and women went in the right side. First they received the bread (men first, then women) then they received the wine (men first again). I couldn't actually see them partaking though since it was blocked by the iconostasis. Is it normal for Copts to receive back there and not in the nave?

9) The priest rarely faced the people unless he completely left the altar, even when he blessed with the cross he seemed to turn half-way at most.

10) Also there were numerous times when it would be said "Our Father..." and then it seemed everyone would pray the rest silently. I think that was just during the Prostration prayers service, but I also saw it happen when Abouna was giving a blessing.

11) And that had to have been the fastest recitation of the Creed I've heard, until the last verse which was chanted.

12) Oh, and the part about Mary and the Mercy Seat/Tabernacle references was nice.

I can't think of anything else at the moment, but apart from aching after all that standing it was a pretty nice experience. A lot more familiar than I thought it would be, and the people themselves were very friendly - almost as soon as the service ended I had someone asking to take down my contact info for updates and stuff. Wink
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 04:02:29 PM by Nephi » Logged
CopticDeacon
Αναγνώστης(Reader) in the God-loving Diocese of New York and New England
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 517


St Pachom, Antoni, and Stephen Pray for us!


« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2014, 04:29:37 PM »

I almost decided I was too tired to go, but I managed to wake myself up enough to get ready. Tongue I got home not terribly long ago. The services didn't end until just a little after 1 PM (I got there at 10AM, which wasn't even the beginning...), since the Prostration prayers took place immediately after the Liturgy ended.

Anyway, I thought I would give some thoughts/comments/observations/questions:

1) I came in during the part of the service saying prayers for "Papa Abba Tawadros." Shortly after that the the Epistle was read. How late was I and what part of the service was that? I got there almost exactly at 10AM, so I was surprised that I seemed so late.

2) I noticed there are much fewer petitions to the Trinity in saying things like "Glory to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" etc. like in the Byzantine tradition, so people signed themselves a lot less.

3) The Coptic kiss of peace was neat and much better than the kiss of peace I've seen at Catholic churches, although it did catch me off guard.

4) Shoes were only taken off by people going up to take communion, so my intense socks preparation was all in vain. Cheesy

5) The chanting was familiar to the Arabic Byzantine chanting I've heard at times, but at other times it took getting used to.

6) Cymbals are about the coolest thing ever.

7) The powerpoints are actually kind of convenient (when the altar servers can keep track of where the service is currently at Wink) compared to a book, since I don't have to keep looking down the whole time to read it.

8 ) When people went up to receive communion I noticed that the the deacon's doors/curtains were opened up, and men went in the left side and women went in the right side. First they received the bread (men first, then women) then they received the wine (men first again). I couldn't actually see them partaking though since it was blocked by the iconostasis. Is it normal for Copts to receive back there and not in the nave?

9) The priest rarely faced the people unless he completely left the altar, even when he blessed with the cross he seemed to turn half-way at most.

10) Also there were numerous times when it would be said "Our Father..." and then it seemed everyone would pray the rest silently. I think that was just during the Prostration prayers service, but I also saw it happen when Abouna was giving a blessing.

11) And that had to have been the fastest recitation of the Creed I've heard, until the last verse which was chanted.

12) Oh, and the part about Mary and the Mercy Seat/Tabernacle references was nice.

I can't think of anything else at the moment, but apart from aching after all that standing it was a pretty nice experience. A lot more familiar than I thought it would be, and the people themselves were very friendly - almost as soon as the service ended I had someone asking to take down my contact info for updates and stuff. Wink

That's awesome! I'm glad you had a good experience. The only correction I want to make is about communion. It Is the Body and Blood
NOT bread and wine.

For where communion takes place it depends on factors such as
1)Style of Church
2)Number of believers receiving
3)Number of Priests to Distribute

+1 for the cymbals comment.
You missed matins (Orthros). Probably came in right at the end of matins. That's not too late by most standards, but the standards should be raised. Any questions?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 04:31:44 PM by CopticDeacon » Logged

"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2014, 05:06:08 PM »

That's awesome! I'm glad you had a good experience. The only correction I want to make is about communion. It Is the Body and Blood
NOT bread and wine.

Sorry, it's just a bad habit of mine. I absolutely didn't mean anything by it.

Quote
For where communion takes place it depends on factors such as
1)Style of Church
2)Number of believers receiving
3)Number of Priests to Distribute

I see, the church wasn't too big and there was only one priest. It was square-ish shaped, much like my home Antioch parish which was nice.

Quote
+1 for the cymbals comment.
You missed matins (Orthros). Probably came in right at the end of matins. That's not too late by most standards, but the standards should be raised. Any questions?

Thank you, I'm sure I'll have some questions even though I can't think of any just yet.
Logged
CopticDeacon
Αναγνώστης(Reader) in the God-loving Diocese of New York and New England
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 517


St Pachom, Antoni, and Stephen Pray for us!


« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2014, 05:14:52 PM »


Sorry, it's just a bad habit of mine. I absolutely didn't mean anything by it.

I see, the church wasn't too big and there was only one priest. It was square-ish shaped, much like my home Antioch parish which was nice.

Thank you, I'm sure I'll have some questions even though I can't think of any just yet.

Totally fine on the bread thing.
When you have more questions just put them here  Wink
Logged

"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 9,592


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2014, 05:17:00 PM »

I visited a Coptic Church in Northridge about ten years ago.

Did you notice a basket filled with white head coverings for the women? When I attended, all women had their heads covered.

I sort of remembered that there was a huge assortment of shoes near the door. I felt like I was in Hawaii.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 05:17:31 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
CopticDeacon
Αναγνώστης(Reader) in the God-loving Diocese of New York and New England
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 517


St Pachom, Antoni, and Stephen Pray for us!


« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2014, 05:22:03 PM »

I visited a Coptic Church in Northridge about ten years ago.

Did you notice a basket filled with white head coverings for the women? When I attended, all women had their heads covered.

I sort of remembered that there was a huge assortment of shoes near the door. I felt like I was in Hawaii.



Yup. We have tons of head coverings for the women and communion cloths (for receiving the Body).

As for the shoes, some churches create a pile of shoes, few have shoe racks, most have a pile somewhere and shoes tucked under seats.
Better than Hawaii, you were in Heaven.  Wink
Logged

"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,520


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2014, 05:26:29 PM »

not crossing themselves so much?
strange, in my limited experience, i thought we copts did lots of signs of the cross. maybe there were a lot of people there who don't usually go to an orthodox church.
i always like to think / hope that lots of people in the congregation not keeping up means that we're doing great evangelism!
 Wink
but i love it when i go to a greek or other church and lots of people make the sign of the cross.
we do say the 'doxa Patri (glory to the Father) etc. also quite a lot, but it's usually in greek; maybe you didn't notice, or maybe this particular parish said it a lot in arabic.

yes, we say the creed too fast. i can't keep up usually when they say it in english.
it seems like some of the words are said as you are breathing in, so no need to pause to take breath (try it one time!)

yes, we say the 'our Father' prayer a lot. when people are tired, or particularly sad about their sins, you won't hear all of it. we tend to take it quite seriously, even if it seems rushed, so people may be quiet at that time.
or if there are a lot of visitors, some people don't feel so comfortable saying it loud in arabic.
i think it's so visitors can have some peace to say it in their own language as they pray.
often we say it louder at the end of the service after Holy Communion (i think out of gratitude for not having died through unworthiness!)

yes, the 'end' time is usually the time of distribution of the Holy Communion (so you know to fast for 9 hours before this time).
proper 'end' times don't really exist for egyptian / sudanese people. it's not polite to tell someone when you want them to leave.
what they have instead is 'the-time-i start-to-think-about-leaving-sometime-soon-then-taking-about-an-hour-to-greet-everyone-as-i-leave'
which is a big problem when renting a church from european background people...
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,520


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2014, 05:28:22 PM »

yes, i went to a greek ordination and lots of women received Holy Communion without head coverings.
i was really surprised, i thought all churches did this normally.

but i was delighted to see so many people (maybe half?) going up for Holy Communion.
this is the main thing.
Logged
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2014, 05:30:00 PM »

Did you notice a basket filled with white head coverings for the women? When I attended, all women had their heads covered.

Didn't see a basket with head coverings, but all women did cover when they went up to receive communion and a good number were covered the entire time (maybe a little less than half).

And yeah, like CopticDeacon said, there were baskets for communion cloths which was interesting.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,800



« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2014, 05:30:15 PM »

Doing sign of the cross all the time seems to be an EO custom. Ethiopians didn't seem to do it that often either.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,400


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2014, 08:00:22 PM »

I finally found the hymn the way it should be chanted:

https://soundcloud.com/bishoi546/asomen-english

The way it should not be chanted (in my not so humble opinion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ipqbiAvMo

Get my drift?  Wink (not the language, the tones themselves is what I'm getting at; the latter hymn doesn't just convince me that she is proclaiming "let us praise the Lord" with joy)

I enjoyed both.  I could probably sing the version you don't like if I learned your chant...I don't think I can sing as high as you like.  Tongue
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,650


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2014, 08:02:39 PM »

I finally found the hymn the way it should be chanted:

https://soundcloud.com/bishoi546/asomen-english

The way it should not be chanted (in my not so humble opinion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ipqbiAvMo

Get my drift?  Wink (not the language, the tones themselves is what I'm getting at; the latter hymn doesn't just convince me that she is proclaiming "let us praise the Lord" with joy)

I enjoyed both.  I could probably sing the version you don't like if I learned your chant...I don't think I can sing as high as you like.  Tongue
strain thy vocal cords for the Holy Spirit's sake!
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,400


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2014, 08:09:04 PM »

I finally found the hymn the way it should be chanted:

https://soundcloud.com/bishoi546/asomen-english

The way it should not be chanted (in my not so humble opinion):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ipqbiAvMo

Get my drift?  Wink (not the language, the tones themselves is what I'm getting at; the latter hymn doesn't just convince me that she is proclaiming "let us praise the Lord" with joy)

I enjoyed both.  I could probably sing the version you don't like if I learned your chant...I don't think I can sing as high as you like.  Tongue
strain thy vocal cords for the Holy Spirit's sake!

I'd rather dance like David before the Ark, but that isn't going to work for a number of reasons. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,472



« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2014, 09:55:18 PM »

not crossing themselves so much?
strange, in my limited experience, i thought we copts did lots of signs of the cross. maybe there were a lot of people there who don't usually go to an orthodox church.
i always like to think / hope that lots of people in the congregation not keeping up means that we're doing great evangelism!
 Wink
but i love it when i go to a greek or other church and lots of people make the sign of the cross.
we do say the 'doxa Patri (glory to the Father) etc. also quite a lot, but it's usually in greek; maybe you didn't notice, or maybe this particular parish said it a lot in arabic.

It's possible that it was one of the few phrases they regularly said in Arabic so I missed it. They did cross themselves more than Catholics do, but not as much as the EO churches I've been to where sometimes it can seem like almost every other second. Wink

Quote
yes, we say the creed too fast. i can't keep up usually when they say it in english.
it seems like some of the words are said as you are breathing in, so no need to pause to take breath (try it one time!)

yes, we say the 'our Father' prayer a lot. when people are tired, or particularly sad about their sins, you won't hear all of it. we tend to take it quite seriously, even if it seems rushed, so people may be quiet at that time.
or if there are a lot of visitors, some people don't feel so comfortable saying it loud in arabic.
i think it's so visitors can have some peace to say it in their own language as they pray.
often we say it louder at the end of the service after Holy Communion (i think out of gratitude for not having died through unworthiness!)

Interesting, I hadn't thought of any of that. I'll have to pay attention to before/after Communion to see if it's different.

Quote
yes, the 'end' time is usually the time of distribution of the Holy Communion (so you know to fast for 9 hours before this time).
proper 'end' times don't really exist for egyptian / sudanese people. it's not polite to tell someone when you want them to leave.
what they have instead is 'the-time-i start-to-think-about-leaving-sometime-soon-then-taking-about-an-hour-to-greet-everyone-as-i-leave'
which is a big problem when renting a church from european background people...

Haha yeah I can see that. Tongue

It was hard for me to tell when the service actually ended since it almost blended into the beginning of the prostration service. I'll figure that out better next time though.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.161 seconds with 72 queries.