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Author Topic: What Saint Mary actually said in Fatima City ?  (Read 1557 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 06, 2014, 03:18:08 AM »

I'm strong believer in the miracle of the sun and the appearance of Saint Mary in city of Fatima in 1917.

But I face a problem, and that is What did really Saint Mary say to the 3 kids ?

I visited some websites, but they seem to have things that I'm skeptic about.

At some point I read that St Mary said that Russia will come to her heart by the Catholic Church and Russia will become Catholic. However, in another thread I read that one of the kids that saw and heard St Mary, said that Russia will remain Orthodox and it will come to hear heart that way ( which does makes sense, because after the 1990s Russia back again to Orthodoxy ).

At another point there is a story that one of the kids asked about one of her friends that have passed lately, and St Mary said that the girl will remain in the Purgatory till the end of the world!

Therefor, I want a true, honest source where I can find what really St Mary said to the kids. Is there any ?

I would appreciate it if this thread does not turn into an argument about whether St Mary appeared in city of Fatima or didn't. Because to me personally I believe strongly that she did. ( Another thing I'm in disagreement with my fellow Evangelicals ).

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 03:44:57 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2014, 03:52:36 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.

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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2014, 03:59:56 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2014, 04:05:49 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

Double interesting  Wink

But do you please have any valid source that says what St Mary truly said in the appearance in general ?

I apologize if it was rude saying that such interpretation comes from "very fundamental Catholics". I need to change my mind then, because I don't think you are "fundy". ( xOrthodox4Christx used that word to describe me once and when I told one of my friends about it, he laughed out loud at the word "fundy" ).
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2014, 04:08:36 AM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2014, 05:28:00 AM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Scoff until the day it happens. Past poses have consecrated the world , not Russia particularly and further not in unison with the worlds bishops at the same time
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 05:47:09 AM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Scoff until the day it happens. Past poses have consecrated the world , not Russia particularly and further not in unison with the worlds bishops at the same time


You're ignoring the fact that Russia has been Orthodox for more than a thousand years. Or are you trying to say that Orthodoxy isn't Christian?
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 05:56:23 AM »

While I honestly do believe in the Miracle at Fatima as well, I do not take the interpretation that the Theotokos actually prophesize of Russia becoming Catholic. The interpretation I believe comes from the second secret of Fatima in which I would quote,

Quote
    "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."[23]

My take on this is that it does not mean that Russia will convert to Catholicism but rather the "Consecration" would take place through the defeat of Communism. While I would again emphasize that I disagree with many of Roman Catholicism's doctrines as I would be offering positive remarks to a pope to make the case for my perspective. It should be noted that the late Pope John Paul ii played a major role in the downfall of Communism which the downfall of it would allow for the Russian Orthodox Church to flourish. If I'm not wrong in Russia, there was a resurgence of Orthodoxy after Communism's fall which would explain the part in which the Theotokos said that Russia will be converted.

I would add that there are some doubts about the nature of letters since it gives the impression that the Theotokos is "Immaculately Conceived" but let's just assume that this simply refers to Mary's Sinlessness and not Mary being shielded from Sin as in the Catholic interpretation of the Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 08:53:56 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  



At this point, the RC church should be more concerned about holding on to the countries that it currently has as opposed to expanding into Russia. Latin and South America are sliding quickly into Pentacostal Evangelicalism.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2014, 09:14:58 AM »

Some Romans believe that when the apparition talks of "conversion of Russia" it means specifically conversion to Roman Catholicism. From a RC it makes sense, since from their stand we are a heresy and heretics have to convert to the true church. The concept that it is enough to believe in Christ is Protestant, not Orthodox or Roman. If one "believes in Christ" but is not a member of His Church, first, he does not fully believe, second he is not even baptized, despite whatever rite was performed.

Other Romans though, and the Orthodox who actually venerate the apparition, believe that it is conversion in the OT sense, where many times we see God speaking of the conversion of the enemies of the Jews meaning that they would stop being enemies or at least become peaceful and not that they would become Jews.

Also the apparition spoke of the "errors of Russia" not of communism in particular. Due to the "timing" of the apparition, obviously the radical socialist doctrine is the foremost one she was addressing, but some RC think that Russia will be the source of several errors until the day the Pope consacrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary *and* the RC faithful attend communion on every first saturday of the month (this second part of the condition is often forgotten). Of course, some include Orthodoxy as some of the errors that Russia would spread. Again, from that perspective, the current trend to support Orthodoxy is just one more case of "Russia spreading its errors".

Here is the text in Portuguese where the apparition makes the request:

"Se fizerem o que eu disser salvar-se-ão muitas almas e terão paz. A guerra vai acabar, mas se não deixarem de ofender a Deus, no reinado de Pio XI começará outra pior. Quando virdes uma noite, alumiada por uma luz desconhecida, sabei que é o grande sinal que Deus vos dá de que vai a punir o mundo dos seus crimes, por meio da guerra, da fome e de perseguições à Igreja e ao Santo Padre. Para a impedir virei pedir a consagração da Rússia a meu Imaculado Coração e a comunhão reparadora nos primeiros sábados. Se atenderem a meus pedidos, a Rússia se converterá e terão paz, se não, espalhará seus erros pelo mundo, promovendo guerras e perseguições à Igreja, os bons serão martirizados, o Santo Padre terá muito que sofrer, várias nações serão aniquiladas, por fim o meu Imaculado Coração triunfará. O Santo Padre consagrar-me-á a Rússia, que se converterá, e será concedido ao mundo algum tempo de paz".
http://www.cancaonova.com/cnova/dicas_fe/segr_fatima.html

Translation:
"If you do what I said, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. War will be over, but if you do not stop offending God, another worse war will come in the reign of Pio XI. When you see a night enlightened by an unknown light, know this is the great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes, through war, starvation and persecutions to the Church and the Holy Father. To prevent this, I will come request the consacration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the redeeming communion on first saturdays. If you give me my requests, Russia will convert and you will have peace, if not, she will spread her errors to the world, promoting wars and persecution to the Church, the good ones will be martyrs, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated , but in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consacrate Russia to me, she will convert, and the world will have peace for some time."
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2014, 09:19:53 AM »

Quote
The consecration of Russia has not been done. 

Russia is the definition of consecration.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2014, 10:01:53 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  



At this point, the RC church should be more concerned about holding on to the countries that it currently has as opposed to expanding into Russia. Latin and South America are sliding quickly into Pentacostal Evangelicalism.

I agree, the RC Church have to start working on keeping her followers, specially in South America.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2014, 10:07:18 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  



At this point, the RC church should be more concerned about holding on to the countries that it currently has as opposed to expanding into Russia. Latin and South America are sliding quickly into Pentacostal Evangelicalism.

I agree, the RC Church have to start working on keeping her followers, specially in South America.

If the Pope is necessary for salvation as Una Sancta determines, that would be non-sense. The merciful thing would be that everybody everywhere is under the Pope. Trying to recover South-America is not contradictory with trying to convert Russia.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 10:09:37 AM »



Sparkle Russia
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2014, 11:02:17 AM »

Wrong. Whole world must be consecrated to Holy Russia.
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2014, 01:10:00 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2014, 01:16:05 PM »

If... IF.... BIG IF... Orthodox Christians started unifying with the Roman Catholic Church, they would not become Roman, and Russia definitely would not be the first to unify.
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 01:18:21 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.

I could actually believe the Fatima apparition. But the dancing sun miracle actually tells against it. 70 thousand saw it and a couple of witnesses outside Portugal. The issue is... if the sun is moving in the sky at least everybody on the bright side of the planet should see it.

As ludicrous as it may sound to believe that 70 thousand had a collective hallucination to see something, it is less unlikely than half the planet not seeing the sun dancing in the sky.

That, or it was a demonic illusion, a possibility that RCs in general find personally offensive, but one cannot rule out.
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 01:45:02 PM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Scoff until the day it happens. Past poses have consecrated the world , not Russia particularly and further not in unison with the worlds bishops at the same time


Interesting.  You trust the testimony of the visionary when it comes to what she saw and heard, and with regard to the necessity of the consecration of Russia, but you do not trust her testimony that it has in fact been accomplished as of 1984.  Do you believe that Sr Lucia was replaced at some point by an impostor (like the Bayside, NY folks who believe the original Pope Paul VI was replaced by an impostor in 1972 because of some weird Polaroid picture)?  Do you believe in any other conspiracy theories?

As to what constitutes "the conversion" of Russia, the actual text of the messages allegedly received does not specify anything.  How it has been interpreted seems to depend on how current events develop.  At one point, it was the conversion of Russia en toto to RCism, but since that hasn't happened in the last twenty years, the resurgence of Orthodoxy in Russia and the collapse of communism is cited as "the conversion".  Same with the so-called Third Secret: when it first came out, the prevailing interpretation was that it was a prophecy of Pope John Paul II's attempted assassination.  Now that there is a Pope and a Pope Emeritus who dress virtually identically, people are holding to the confusion in the Secret about the identity of the bishop in white (who supposedly was presumed to be the Pope but the visionaries were not certain) to say that it has nothing to do with Pope John Paul II and rather has to do with something yet to happen to one of the two Popes.  Others even claim that the Vatican hasn't released the full Third Secret, even though they said they did, leaving us with a "Third Secret", a "Fourth Secret" (in effect), and a Supreme Magisterium that cannot be trusted to be honest about non-binding phenomena like apparitions and other forms of private revelation.  Yet we are told we must submit to its proclamations concerning public revelation and the deposit of faith.   

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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 01:48:32 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.

No, it is not easy to hoax what happened in the city of Fatima that day. It is not easy to make 70 thousand person see the same thing at the same time and at the same place.

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Me, you and many others, don't need miracles to rest our believing in. BUT, it is arrogant and selfish to deny that there are other people in the world who need a miracle to believe.


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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 01:53:09 PM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 01:59:38 PM »

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Oh... oh my...
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 02:04:04 PM »



OMG who's the Pope on the other side of that window?!?!
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 02:04:46 PM »

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Oh... oh my...

Meaning ?
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 02:13:45 PM »

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Oh... oh my...

Actually it is. "I will just enter this closed room no one sees and I guarantee that candles will magically light up in there, just don't pick or the magic vanishes".

The only thing that prevents me from totally disbelieving it is that as tricks go that would be so lame as to not even be a magical trick at all; and the event has been surrounded by enemies of Christianity for centuries. If Muslims or radical Jews wanted a perfect chance to bring shame to Orthodox Christianity, exposing its faithful as gullible, the Holy Fire being fake would be it. Since they have not, either *they* are not as smart as they think, or they actually know that something happens there that is not that simple.
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 02:19:46 PM »

Many people will believe what they want to believe, even when they know it's been proven false. A surprising number are even self-aware and honest enough to admit that. As for the holy fire... [go back to beginning of this post] Wink

Or do a google search.
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2014, 02:33:17 PM »

Many people will believe what they want to believe, even when they know it's been proven false. A surprising number are even self-aware and honest enough to admit that. As for the holy fire... [go back to beginning of this post] Wink

Or do a google search.

I believe in the Holy Fire miracle, even though I'm not Orthodox. So, I guess I'm somehow less self-aware and not honest enough. right ? Even though I did search on the internet and watched that guy was on Greek TV channel and the joke he made thinking that it proves the miracle to be false.

Anyway, you believe in the miracle or you don't that is your choice, it is not like you will go to Hell for not believe in it. But this is something, and it is another to accuse those who believe in it of being somehow less intelligent.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2014, 02:44:50 PM »

That's not what I said. I said there was a group of people (the majority, it seems, from polls and other evidence) who believed things they knew to be false. And then I remarked that some of this group were aware of and open about this cognitive dissonance, compartmentalizing, or whatever you want to call it.
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2014, 02:49:54 PM »

Though as I look at what I posted again, I can see why it was, and probably should have been, taken that way.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2014, 02:51:18 PM »

That's not what I said. I said there was a group of people (the majority, it seems, from polls and other evidence) who believed things they knew to be false. And then I remarked that some of this group were aware of and open about this cognitive dissonance, compartmentalizing, or whatever you want to call it.

Oh, then my apology Smiley

That wouldn't be healthy, to believe in something you actually know it is not true. I wonder why would someone do so.
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2014, 03:33:24 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.

No, it is not easy to hoax what happened in the city of Fatima that day. It is not easy to make 70 thousand person see the same thing at the same time and at the same place.

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Me, you and many others, don't need miracles to rest our believing in. BUT, it is arrogant and selfish to deny that there are other people in the world who need a miracle to believe.




Yeah and was it 70 000 at knock too?
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2014, 03:36:51 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2014, 03:44:35 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2014, 04:30:11 PM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

I'm not one for believing in conspiracies but that's uh, a little alarming. I have mixed feelings on Fatima, to say the least.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2014, 04:58:18 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
I don't understand objections like this. Just because they saw the sun dancing does not mean the sun was literally dancing. There is a certain mystery to miracles. Why do you object to the rest of the sun-facing planet not seeing it and yet have no problem with the ensuing heat and freeze waves that would probably kill the Earth's population were the Sun to actually dance?

Adopting scientism in regards to miracles is a wholly inappropriate outlook.
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2014, 05:01:35 PM »

For shame.  You cannot post something about the sun dancing without including a pic.

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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2014, 05:05:35 PM »

I don't believe it.
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2014, 05:37:40 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

Even Roman Catholic are allowed to not believe in it.

We're you there when St Mary was taken to the Heavens, body and soul ?

Anyway, end of the story.  Smiley


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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2014, 05:42:14 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
I don't understand objections like this. Just because they saw the sun dancing does not mean the sun was literally dancing. There is a certain mystery to miracles. Why do you object to the rest of the sun-facing planet not seeing it and yet have no problem with the ensuing heat and freeze waves that would probably kill the Earth's population were the Sun to actually dance?

Adopting scientism in regards to miracles is a wholly inappropriate outlook.

That is exactly what my response was going to be.

I don't think that the sun literally danced. I believe St Mary did what she did by God's power and grace, to convenes the people who gathered at that time and place, many of them went there and were skeptics about it, even some Atheists went there ready to mock the kids...etc. So, the point wasn't making the sun literally dance.
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2014, 05:44:44 PM »

WARNING!! We forgot the main purpose of this thread, and that if there is a genuine source where I can find what St Mary really said to the kids then ?
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2014, 06:31:01 PM »

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?

There are, of course, numerous quetions about what happened that day; but I believe this ^^ can be set aside. None of the "messages" claimed that what people saw was the sun. "Miracle of the sun", "day the sun danced" etc are just terms that witnesses and commentators came up with to describe the event.
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2014, 06:32:37 PM »

We forgot the main purpose of this thread, and that if there is a genuine source where I can find what St Mary really said to the kids then ?

Good question, but I don't know the answer.
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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2014, 08:29:38 AM »

There can be no genuine source, since Mary didn't write it.
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2014, 10:05:46 AM »

Quote
The consecration of Russia has not been done. 

Russia is the definition of consecration.

Im very skeptical of the verse "...consecration to MY Sacred Heart..." portion.  I would think that St. Mary would be pushing for consecration to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after all, she is always pointing the way to Christ.  Im not saying 'something' didn't happen at Fatima but words mean things.  Im also not surprised that many RC's had accepted the statement about Russia's conversion as a definite return to Rome, which I sincerely doubt.  I read once that Russia before the revolution had more churchs dedicated to our Blessed Mother than all the dedicated churches in Europe.....  So, this conversion has to mean the return to Christianity and not Roman Catholicism as some would have you believe.
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2014, 10:09:31 AM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?

As an Orthodox Christian I could explain it as" Only those at Fatima experience this phenomenon" If it happened Im sure God would make it so, but something happened.
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2014, 10:14:37 AM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

Could this be one gigantic hoax perpetrated on the Catholics......The comparisons obviously show that, short of any plastic surgery and dental work, the two comparisons do not match.....whats up?
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2014, 10:39:35 AM »

There can be no genuine source, since Mary didn't write it.

True. Speaking circumspectly, the question is What did the three say that she said? (And even that may not be an entirely straight-forward task. For starters, that question is really three questions. Then there could be other issues like the passage of time affecting their memories.)
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« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2014, 05:45:27 PM »


At some point I read that St Mary said that Russia will come to her heart by the Catholic Church and Russia will become Catholic. However, in another thread I read that one of the kids that saw and heard St Mary, said that Russia will remain Orthodox and it will come to hear heart that way ( which does makes sense, because after the 1990s Russia back again to Orthodoxy ).

There is nothing in the messages given by the Theotokos at Fatima that explicitly states that  Russia will become Catholic or remain Orthodox.

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« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2014, 05:50:50 PM »

WARNING!! We forgot the main purpose of this thread, and that if there is a genuine source where I can find what St Mary really said to the kids then ?

The best source is Fatima in Lucia's Own Words by Sister Lucia. Then get Fatima For Today by
Fr. Andrew Apostoli, which is the most up-to-date book on the apparitions and messages of Our Lady of Fatima and the subsequent events (i.e., assassination attempt on St. John Paul II, the 1984 Consecration, collapse of communism, etc.).
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« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2014, 05:56:52 PM »

WARNING!! We forgot the main purpose of this thread, and that if there is a genuine source where I can find what St Mary really said to the kids then ?

The best source is Fatima in Lucia's Own Words by Sister Lucia. Then get Fatima For Today by
Fr. Andrew Apostoli, which is the most up-to-date book on the apparitions and messages of Our Lady of Fatima and the subsequent events (i.e., assassination attempt on St. John Paul II, the 1984 Consecration, collapse of communism, etc.).

Thank you very much  Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2014, 07:12:28 PM »

There can be no genuine source, since Mary didn't write it.

True. Speaking circumspectly, the question is What did the three say that she said? (And even that may not be an entirely straight-forward task. For starters, that question is really three questions. Then there could be other issues like the passage of time affecting their memories.)

Actually, Sister Lucia addresses in her book, Fatima in Lucia's Own Words, the issue of being able to remember all that was said by Our Lady:

Quote
Maybe someone will want to ask: How can you remember all this? I don't know. Our dear Lord, Who shares out His gifts as He thinks fit, has allotted to me this little portion--my memory. He alone knows why. And besides, as far as I can see, there is this diffreence between natural and supernatural things:When we are talking to a mere creature, even while we are speasking, we tend to forget what is being said; whereas these supernatural things are ever more deeply engraved on the soul, even as we are seeing and hearing them, so that it is not easy to forget them.
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« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2014, 07:21:53 PM »

Nothing.
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« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2014, 08:09:07 PM »


At some point I read that St Mary said that Russia will come to her heart by the Catholic Church and Russia will become Catholic. However, in another thread I read that one of the kids that saw and heard St Mary, said that Russia will remain Orthodox and it will come to hear heart that way ( which does makes sense, because after the 1990s Russia back again to Orthodoxy ).

There is nothing in the messages given by the Theotokos at Fatima that explicitly states that  Russia will become Catholic or remain Orthodox.
"In May of 1946, a Russian girl (Natacha Derfelden) in exile at Paris, went to the International Marian Con­ gress at Fatima and took Russian soil to place at the Shrine. Thirty-five thousand youth delegates from all the five continents joined with her in an act of consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart. It is rumored that Natacha was told by Sister Lucia (the visionary of Fatima) that the conversion of Russia would be completed through the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Rite. I received this news from Fatima, at the time, through a reliable reporter who said that he had corroborated it with Miss Derfelden. Later one of the greatest "underground” apostles of Our Lady of Fatima in the world, who visited the Russian Orthodox in Paris, passed the report to me verbally in New York"(Russia Will be Converted, John Haffert, President of the Blue Army, 1956, p. 204).
http://johnhaffert.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Russia-convert-2.pdf
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« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2014, 09:09:01 PM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

Some speculate that this could be related to the disputed 3rd secret of Fatima which was supposed to be released to the public in 1960.  It was not released at that time due to fears of public reaction to its contents.  Sr. Lucia found this secret so disturbing that she had great difficulty in writing it down, even in obedience to superiors.  Part of it was finally released (in 2000?), but it was not anything that would seem so terrifying or worth suppressing for so many decades.  Many believe the full content of the secret was not released because it contained warnings from Our Lady about changes being made in the Church and widespread apostasy among the hierarchy.
 
The original Sr. Lucia was effectively silenced in the 1950's and made no public appearances for a period of ten years.  When the Vatican reintroduced her to the public, she appeared different.  The original Lucia was a very solemn, penitent woman who seemed as though the weight of the world was on her shoulders, presumably as a result of the knowledge she'd been burdened with.  But when she reappeared, not only did she seem different physically, but her personality seemed to have changed as well.  Who knows if we will ever know the truth of what happened.
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« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2014, 11:43:10 PM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

Some speculate that this could be related to the disputed 3rd secret of Fatima which was supposed to be released to the public in 1960.  It was not released at that time due to fears of public reaction to its contents.  Sr. Lucia found this secret so disturbing that she had great difficulty in writing it down, even in obedience to superiors.  Part of it was finally released (in 2000?), but it was not anything that would seem so terrifying or worth suppressing for so many decades.  Many believe the full content of the secret was not released because it contained warnings from Our Lady about changes being made in the Church and widespread apostasy among the hierarchy.
 
The original Sr. Lucia was effectively silenced in the 1950's and made no public appearances for a period of ten years.  When the Vatican reintroduced her to the public, she appeared different.  The original Lucia was a very solemn, penitent woman who seemed as though the weight of the world was on her shoulders, presumably as a result of the knowledge she'd been burdened with.  But when she reappeared, not only did she seem different physically, but her personality seemed to have changed as well.  Who knows if we will ever know the truth of what happened.

I see that you are Catholic.

If what you are saying is true, how could anyone join a Church that he/she thinks it leaders did something like the above. ? Wouldn't that be a sign that there is something very wrong in the Church ?.
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« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2014, 12:21:53 AM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

Some speculate that this could be related to the disputed 3rd secret of Fatima which was supposed to be released to the public in 1960.  It was not released at that time due to fears of public reaction to its contents.  Sr. Lucia found this secret so disturbing that she had great difficulty in writing it down, even in obedience to superiors.  Part of it was finally released (in 2000?), but it was not anything that would seem so terrifying or worth suppressing for so many decades.  Many believe the full content of the secret was not released because it contained warnings from Our Lady about changes being made in the Church and widespread apostasy among the hierarchy.
 
The original Sr. Lucia was effectively silenced in the 1950's and made no public appearances for a period of ten years.  When the Vatican reintroduced her to the public, she appeared different.  The original Lucia was a very solemn, penitent woman who seemed as though the weight of the world was on her shoulders, presumably as a result of the knowledge she'd been burdened with.  But when she reappeared, not only did she seem different physically, but her personality seemed to have changed as well.  Who knows if we will ever know the truth of what happened.

I see that you are Catholic.

If what you are saying is true, how could anyone join a Church that he/she thinks it leaders did something like the above. ? Wouldn't that be a sign that there is something very wrong in the Church ?.

Time is running out and Satan is trying desperately to destroy the Church from within.  All these things have been foretold in many prophecies for centuries.  Leaders in the Church are not what makes the Church.  They can be great sinners or great saints just as they have been throughout all Church history.  Right now we are in a dark time in that history. 
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« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2014, 12:39:00 AM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

Some speculate that this could be related to the disputed 3rd secret of Fatima which was supposed to be released to the public in 1960.  It was not released at that time due to fears of public reaction to its contents.  Sr. Lucia found this secret so disturbing that she had great difficulty in writing it down, even in obedience to superiors.  Part of it was finally released (in 2000?), but it was not anything that would seem so terrifying or worth suppressing for so many decades.  Many believe the full content of the secret was not released because it contained warnings from Our Lady about changes being made in the Church and widespread apostasy among the hierarchy.
 
The original Sr. Lucia was effectively silenced in the 1950's and made no public appearances for a period of ten years.  When the Vatican reintroduced her to the public, she appeared different.  The original Lucia was a very solemn, penitent woman who seemed as though the weight of the world was on her shoulders, presumably as a result of the knowledge she'd been burdened with.  But when she reappeared, not only did she seem different physically, but her personality seemed to have changed as well.  Who knows if we will ever know the truth of what happened.

I see that you are Catholic.

If what you are saying is true, how could anyone join a Church that he/she thinks it leaders did something like the above. ? Wouldn't that be a sign that there is something very wrong in the Church ?.

Time is running out and Satan is trying desperately to destroy the Church from within.  All these things have been foretold in many prophecies for centuries.  Leaders in the Church are not what makes the Church.  They can be great sinners or great saints just as they have been throughout all Church history.  Right now we are in a dark time in that history.  

Sadly it seems like it. But the problem is who is good and who is bad ? How would I know who to trust ?

Also I always ask this question sometimes, Are you Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?

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« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2014, 12:52:40 AM »

Switzerland had excellent plastic surgeons in the 1950's.  Sister Lucy is the same - except #2 has had a lot of work done.
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« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2014, 12:57:07 AM »


Sadly it seems like it. But the problem is who is good and who is bad ? How would I know who to trust ?

Also I always ask this question sometimes, Are you Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?



Many are not necessarily evil, but have simply grown lukewarm and became too concerned with how they appear to the world.  They are blind to the evils that have seeped in in the name of "dialogue" with the world.  They could have suppressed the message of Fatima for no other reason than preserving their image or reputation with the world.  Put your trust in Christ, His Mother, the Saints.  As for the clergy, you can know them by their fruits.  Distinguish those who seem to pander toward the world from those who go against it.
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« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2014, 01:27:58 AM »


Sadly it seems like it. But the problem is who is good and who is bad ? How would I know who to trust ?

Also I always ask this question sometimes, Are you Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?



Many are not necessarily evil, but have simply grown lukewarm and became too concerned with how they appear to the world.  They are blind to the evils that have seeped in in the name of "dialogue" with the world.  They could have suppressed the message of Fatima for no other reason than preserving their image or reputation with the world.  Put your trust in Christ, His Mother, the Saints.  As for the clergy, you can know them by their fruits.  Distinguish those who seem to pander toward the world from those who go against it.

These are some good advices. That is what I'm trying to do.

I'm sorry to repeat the same question, but could you please tell me if you are Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?  Smiley

I know that many times I've expressed negative views on Traditionalist Catholics, but because I never understood them and we both disagree on many issues, however we agree on other issues even though they are few.

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« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2014, 01:29:30 AM »

Switzerland had excellent plastic surgeons in the 1950's.  Sister Lucy is the same - except #2 has had a lot of work done.

Before


After


You can see that the shape of the mouth is different.  The corners of the mouth on the later Lucia turn down when smiling.  You can see this in the other pictures posted so far as well.  In the profile comparisons posted earlier, you can see that in the second photo, her chin protrudes out and her nose is no longer turned up slightly as it was when she was younger.  Also notice the spacing between the eyebrows.  I can't imagine why a cloistered nun would have extensive plastic surgery - especially during the 1950's.
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« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2014, 01:35:00 AM »

I have -no- stake in this whole thing.....


But.....assuming surgery.....to be the solitary explanation for changes, is perhaps a bit far of a reach.

People can have issues that can cause muscle changes, which could in essence change a profile, or a turned up smile for a turned down...etc.

Even something as simple as getting some teeth pulled out, would and could change how the mouth closes over less protrusions.....


On the topic of what was said, and what it all -means-......sometimes I think its better to leave things, then to chase after prophecy and meanings.
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« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2014, 01:35:48 AM »

Switzerland had excellent plastic surgeons in the 1950's.  Sister Lucy is the same - except #2 has had a lot of work done.

You can see that the shape of the mouth is different.  The corners of the mouth on the later Lucia turn down when smiling.  You can see this in the other pictures posted so far as well.  In the profile comparisons posted earlier, you can see that in the second photo, her chin protrudes out and her nose is no longer turned up slightly as it was when she was younger.  Also notice the spacing between the eyebrows.  I can't imagine why a cloistered nun would have extensive plastic surgery - especially during the 1950's.

Death threats from various factions.  Switzerland is neutral - very hard for spies and assassins to operate freely.  Vatican could protect her anywhere she went.

Edit: Joan Rivers has had numerous plastic surgeries and she doesn't look the same in 2014 as she did in 1984 or 1964 for that matter.
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« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2014, 01:51:19 AM »


Sadly it seems like it. But the problem is who is good and who is bad ? How would I know who to trust ?

Also I always ask this question sometimes, Are you Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?



Many are not necessarily evil, but have simply grown lukewarm and became too concerned with how they appear to the world.  They are blind to the evils that have seeped in in the name of "dialogue" with the world.  They could have suppressed the message of Fatima for no other reason than preserving their image or reputation with the world.  Put your trust in Christ, His Mother, the Saints.  As for the clergy, you can know them by their fruits.  Distinguish those who seem to pander toward the world from those who go against it.

These are some good advices. That is what I'm trying to do.

I'm sorry to repeat the same question, but could you please tell me if you are Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?  Smiley

I know that many times I've expressed negative views on Traditionalist Catholics, but because I never understood them and we both disagree on many issues, however we agree on other issues even though they are few.



Sorry about that.  I'd consider myself a traditional Catholic, but not really a Latin Traditionalist.  If anything I lean more towards a traditional Byzantine spirituality and praxis.  I accept Vatican II, but its status and interpretation still seem tentative as long as the crisis persists.  I agree and sympathize with many Traditionalists on current Church matters, but things in that realm can sometimes deteriorate into bitterness and an attitude of Pharisaical external correctness that is not helpful.  I understand though that it's hard not to be bitter at times considering what has been happening these past several decades.
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« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2014, 01:53:48 AM »

Switzerland had excellent plastic surgeons in the 1950's.  Sister Lucy is the same - except #2 has had a lot of work done.

Before


After


You can see that the shape of the mouth is different.  The corners of the mouth on the later Lucia turn down when smiling.  You can see this in the other pictures posted so far as well.  In the profile comparisons posted earlier, you can see that in the second photo, her chin protrudes out and her nose is no longer turned up slightly as it was when she was younger.  Also notice the spacing between the eyebrows.  I can't imagine why a cloistered nun would have extensive plastic surgery - especially during the 1950's.


Denise is right.

There is no need for plastic surgery to explain the physical changes seen in the older nun. While I'm not ruling out the possibility of the photos being of different women, the loss or removal of teeth and the subsequent natural remodeling of the jawbones and changes in the muscle and skin tone can easily lead to the structural differences seen. It was not at all unusual at that time for even quite young people to have some or all of their teeth removed, whether because of tooth decay, or to remove crooked teeth, and replace them with dentures. Dentures which have become worn with time can easily lead to the droopy corners of the mouth seen in the pictures of the older nun.

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« Reply #66 on: June 09, 2014, 01:58:03 AM »

I have -no- stake in this whole thing.....


But.....assuming surgery.....to be the solitary explanation for changes, is perhaps a bit far of a reach.

People can have issues that can cause muscle changes, which could in essence change a profile, or a turned up smile for a turned down...etc.

Even something as simple as getting some teeth pulled out, would and could change how the mouth closes over less protrusions.....


On the topic of what was said, and what it all -means-......sometimes I think its better to leave things, then to chase after prophecy and meanings.

These are good points.  To be sure, I don't chase after these things, or base my spiritual life on them whatsoever.  I see all these things as merely useful for navigating the current crisis in the Roman Catholic Church.  
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« Reply #67 on: June 09, 2014, 01:59:02 AM »


Sadly it seems like it. But the problem is who is good and who is bad ? How would I know who to trust ?

Also I always ask this question sometimes, Are you Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?



Many are not necessarily evil, but have simply grown lukewarm and became too concerned with how they appear to the world.  They are blind to the evils that have seeped in in the name of "dialogue" with the world.  They could have suppressed the message of Fatima for no other reason than preserving their image or reputation with the world.  Put your trust in Christ, His Mother, the Saints.  As for the clergy, you can know them by their fruits.  Distinguish those who seem to pander toward the world from those who go against it.

These are some good advices. That is what I'm trying to do.

I'm sorry to repeat the same question, but could you please tell me if you are Traditionalist Catholic or a Catholic who accepts Vatican II ?  Smiley

I know that many times I've expressed negative views on Traditionalist Catholics, but because I never understood them and we both disagree on many issues, however we agree on other issues even though they are few.



Sorry about that.  I'd consider myself a traditional Catholic, but not really a Latin Traditionalist.  If anything I lean more towards a traditional Byzantine spirituality and praxis.  I accept Vatican II, but its status and interpretation still seem tentative as long as the crisis persists.  I agree and sympathize with many Traditionalists on current Church matters, but things in that realm can sometimes deteriorate into bitterness and an attitude of Pharisaical external correctness that is not helpful.  I understand though that it's hard not to be bitter at times considering what has been happening these past several decades.

I agree with you on many things here. There are type of Traditionalist Catholics who just seem that they want to keep living in the past and sometimes the way they look at others is very harsh and they are quick to curse anyone who disagree with them and call them "heretics". But I do also agree that the Catholic Church at this time is NOT really that good. It is missed up, it is becoming more and more liberal, and it is losing its power over the followers, many Catholics worldwide don't even care about their faith, many think that Catholic is something you are born with it, and even if you are an Atheist, you still can be Catholic. Many Catholic Churches today are talking about love, mercy, and good. and that is great! But whenever you talk about sin, Hell, Devil...etc. you get negative reaction.

It is very clear that the Catholic Church is in a crises and need to do something about it before it gets too late.
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« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2014, 02:02:45 AM »



Denise is right.

There is no need for plastic surgery to explain the physical changes seen in the older nun. While I'm not ruling out the possibility of the photos being of different women, the loss or removal of teeth and the subsequent natural remodeling of the jawbones and changes in the muscle and skin tone can easily lead to the structural differences seen. It was not at all unusual at that time for even quite young people to have some or all of their teeth removed, whether because of tooth decay, or to remove crooked teeth, and replace them with dentures. Dentures which have become worn with time can easily lead to the droopy corners of the mouth seen in the pictures of the older nun.



And you both may be very right about that.  I'm always open to the possibility that people have gone overboard in their speculations about Fatima. 
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« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2014, 09:14:03 AM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
I don't understand objections like this. Just because they saw the sun dancing does not mean the sun was literally dancing. There is a certain mystery to miracles. Why do you object to the rest of the sun-facing planet not seeing it and yet have no problem with the ensuing heat and freeze waves that would probably kill the Earth's population were the Sun to actually dance?

Adopting scientism in regards to miracles is a wholly inappropriate outlook.

There is nothing of scientism in it. God does make nature shaking miracles while, at the same time, countering other side-effects. But when the sea was opened, believers and unbelievers saw it.. When Jesus died and it got dark and there was an earthquake, everybody felt it.  When Jesus resurrected in body, only those to whom His body was withing eye-sight would see it. When, in some cases, the bread and wine become visibly flesh and blood, everybody sees it.

A material miracle that happens at the same time for believers and unbelievers is always seen by both. A person who is considered "healed" only by believers while unbelievers clearly see the person is still sick is no miracle at all. It's self-deception. Miracles are not a blank cheque for "everything goes". We must have discernement, or we can take illusions for the real thing.
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« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2014, 09:25:33 AM »

As for the claims that it was not actually the sun, but something else, if it were named and clearly explained that it was not the miracle of the *sun* dancing, but the miracle of the "very big will-o'-the-wisp", it would be very less majestic and convincing, don't you think?
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« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2014, 10:40:58 AM »

Here is an excerpt of the newspaper article that first reported the miracle of the "dancing sun" in 1917 (my translation inserted in italics):

Quote
E os pastorinhos? Lucia, de 10 anos, a vidente, e os seus pequenos companheiros, Francisco, de 9, e Jacinta, de 7, ainda não chegaram. A sua presença assinala-se talvez meia hora antes da indicada como sendo a da aparição. Conduzem as rapariguinhas, coroadas de capelas de flôres, ao sitio em que se levanta o portico. A chuva cae incessantemente mas ninguem desespera. Carros com retardatários chegam à estrada. Grupos de freis ajoelham na lama e a Lucia pede-lhes, ordena que fechem os chapeus. Transmite-se a ordem, que é obedecida de pronto, sem a minima relutância. Ha gente, muita gente, como que em extase; gente comovida, em cujos labios secos a prece paralisou; gente pasmada, com as mãos postas e os olhos borbulhantes; gente que parece sentir, tocar o sobrenatural...

And the little shepherds? Lúcia, 10-years, the seer, and her little comraddes, Francisco, 9-years, and Jacinta, 7-years, have not arrived yet. They make themselves present about half an hour before the time assigned for the apparition. They lead the young maidens, crowned with flower chapels, to the place where the gate stands. The rain falls with no stop, but noone despairs. Cars arrive at the roads with the latecomers. Groups of friars kneel on the mud and Lucia ask, commands them to close their umbrellas. They are given their orders, which are obeyed, without the least reluctance. There are people, a lot of people, as if in ecstasy; shaken, whose dry lips seem paralised by prayer; people in wonder, hands put together and bubbling eyes; people who seem to feel, touch the supernatural...

A criança afirma que a Senhora lhe falou mais uma vez, e o céu, ainda caliginoso, começa, de subito, a clarear no alto; a chuva pára e presente-se que o sol vae inundar de luz a paizagem que a manhã invernosa tomou ainda mais triste...

The child says that the Lady talked to her once again, and the sky, still dark, starts, all of a sudden, to bright up; the rain stops and one feels that the sun will flood with light a scenario the winter morning had made even sadder...

A hora antiga' é a que regula para esta multidão, que calculos desapaixonados de pessoas cultas e de todo o ponto alheias ás influencias misticas computam em trinta ou quarenta mil creaturas... A manifestação miraculosa, o sinal visivel anunciado está prestes a produzir-se - asseguram muitos romeiros... E assiste-se então a um espectáculo unico e inacreditavel para quem não foi testemunha d'ele. Do cimo da estrada, onde se aglomeram os carros e se conservam muitas centenas de pessoas, a quem escasseou valor para se meter à terra barrenta, vê-se toda a imensa multidão voltar-se para o sol, que se mostra liberto de nuvens, no zenit. O astro lembra uma placa de prata fosca e é possivel fitar-lhe o disco sem o minimo esforço. Não queima, não cega. Dir-se-hia estar-se realisando um eclipse. Mas eis que um alarido colossal se levanta, e aos espectadores que se encontram mais perto se ouve gritar:

- Milagre, milagre! Maravilha, maravilha!

The crowd follows the ancient time, a crowd counted around 30 or 40 thousand by educated uninvolved people who are in everything dettached from the mystical influences of the pilgrims.... The miraculous manifestation, the announced visible sign is about to happe - say many pilgrims... And then one watches a spectacle unique and unbelieavable for anyone who did not witness it. From the top of the road, where many cars are and many people to whom it was unworthy to step on the muddy soil, one sees all the immense crowd turn to the sun, which shows itselef cloudless, in its zenit. The star reminds us of a mat silver plaque, and one can look at it without any effort. It does not burn, it does not blind. One could say an eclipse was happening. But then a colossal uproar rises, and we can hear those closer to us shout:

- Miracle, miracle! Wonder, wonder!


Aos olhos deslumbrados d'aquele povo, cuja atitude nos transporta aos tempos biblicos e que, palido de assombro, com a cabeça descoberta, encara o azul, o sol tremeu, o sol teve nunca vistos movimentos bruscos fóra de todas as leis cosmicas - o sol «bailou», segundo a tipica expressão dos camponeses.. Empoleirado no estribo do auto-omnibus de Torres Novas, um ancião cuja estatura e cuja fisionomia, ao mesmo tempo doce e energica, lembram as de Paul Déroulède, recita, voltado para o sol, em voz clamorosa, de principio a fim, o Credo. Pergunte quem é e dizem-me ser o sr. João Maria Amado de Melo Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcelos.

According to the eyes of those people, whose attitude takes us to biblical times, and who face the blue (sky) with uncovered head, the sun had shaken, it had jolted in an unseen manner outside all cosmic laws - the sun «dancedd», according to the typical expression of the peasants. Up on footboard of a bus from Torres Novas, an elder whose height and countenance, at the same time sweet and energetic, akin to Paul Déroulède, recites the Creed, begining to end, in resounding voice, turned to the sun. Ask him who he is and I was told he was Mr. João Maria Amado de Melo Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcelos.

Vejo-o depois dirigir-se aos que o rodeiam, e que se conservaram de chapeu na cabeça, suplicando-lhes, veementemente, que se descubram em face de tão extraordinária demonstração da existência de Deus. Cenas idênticas repetem-se n'outros pontos e uma senhora clama, banhada em aflitivo pranto e quasi n'uma sufocarão:

- Que lastima! Ainda ha homens que se não descobrem deante de tão estupendo milagre!

I see him address those around him, and who keep their hats on their heads, begging them, vehemently, to take their hats off before such an extraordinary demonstration of the existence of God. Identical scenes are repeated at other spots and a lady cries out, bathed in sweet tears and almost loosing her breath:

- What a pitty! There are still men who do not find themselves before such a stupendous miracle!


E, a seguir, perguntam uns aos outros se viram e o que viram. O maior numero confessa que viu a tremura, o bailado do sol; outros, porém, declaram ter visto o rosto risonho da propria Virgem, juram que o sol girou sobre si mesmo como uma roda de fogo de artificio, que ele baixou quasi a ponto de queimar a terra com os seus raios... Ha quem diga que o viu mudar sucessivamente de côr...

São perto de quinze horas.

Then, next, they ask each other if they saw what they saw. The largest number confess they saw the shaking, the dancing of the sun; others, however, claim to have seen the smiling face of the Virgin herself, they swear the sun spinned around itself like a wheel of fireworks, that it came down almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays... some say they saw it change into several colors....

It is close to 3 pm.


"O Século", Lisbon (morning edition) 37 (l2.876) Oct. 15th, 1917, p. 1, cols. 6-7; p. 2, col. 1.

for full article (in Portuguese): http://www.paginaoriente.com/maria/report.htm
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« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2014, 11:32:20 AM »

Here are books with the original messages in Portuguese:

http://www.pastorinhos.com/edicoes/livros/

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« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2014, 12:01:12 PM »

Here is an excerpt of the newspaper article that first reported the miracle of the "dancing sun" in 1917 (my translation inserted in italics):

Quote
E os pastorinhos? Lucia, de 10 anos, a vidente, e os seus pequenos companheiros, Francisco, de 9, e Jacinta, de 7, ainda não chegaram. A sua presença assinala-se talvez meia hora antes da indicada como sendo a da aparição. Conduzem as rapariguinhas, coroadas de capelas de flôres, ao sitio em que se levanta o portico. A chuva cae incessantemente mas ninguem desespera. Carros com retardatários chegam à estrada. Grupos de freis ajoelham na lama e a Lucia pede-lhes, ordena que fechem os chapeus. Transmite-se a ordem, que é obedecida de pronto, sem a minima relutância. Ha gente, muita gente, como que em extase; gente comovida, em cujos labios secos a prece paralisou; gente pasmada, com as mãos postas e os olhos borbulhantes; gente que parece sentir, tocar o sobrenatural...

And the little shepherds? Lúcia, 10-years, the seer, and her little comraddes, Francisco, 9-years, and Jacinta, 7-years, have not arrived yet. They make themselves present about half an hour before the time assigned for the apparition. They lead the young maidens, crowned with flower chapels, to the place where the gate stands. The rain falls with no stop, but noone despairs. Cars arrive at the roads with the latecomers. Groups of friars kneel on the mud and Lucia ask, commands them to close their umbrellas. They are given their orders, which are obeyed, without the least reluctance. There are people, a lot of people, as if in ecstasy; shaken, whose dry lips seem paralised by prayer; people in wonder, hands put together and bubbling eyes; people who seem to feel, touch the supernatural...

A criança afirma que a Senhora lhe falou mais uma vez, e o céu, ainda caliginoso, começa, de subito, a clarear no alto; a chuva pára e presente-se que o sol vae inundar de luz a paizagem que a manhã invernosa tomou ainda mais triste...

The child says that the Lady talked to her once again, and the sky, still dark, starts, all of a sudden, to bright up; the rain stops and one feels that the sun will flood with light a scenario the winter morning had made even sadder...

A hora antiga' é a que regula para esta multidão, que calculos desapaixonados de pessoas cultas e de todo o ponto alheias ás influencias misticas computam em trinta ou quarenta mil creaturas... A manifestação miraculosa, o sinal visivel anunciado está prestes a produzir-se - asseguram muitos romeiros... E assiste-se então a um espectáculo unico e inacreditavel para quem não foi testemunha d'ele. Do cimo da estrada, onde se aglomeram os carros e se conservam muitas centenas de pessoas, a quem escasseou valor para se meter à terra barrenta, vê-se toda a imensa multidão voltar-se para o sol, que se mostra liberto de nuvens, no zenit. O astro lembra uma placa de prata fosca e é possivel fitar-lhe o disco sem o minimo esforço. Não queima, não cega. Dir-se-hia estar-se realisando um eclipse. Mas eis que um alarido colossal se levanta, e aos espectadores que se encontram mais perto se ouve gritar:

- Milagre, milagre! Maravilha, maravilha!

The crowd follows the ancient time, a crowd counted around 30 or 40 thousand by educated uninvolved people who are in everything dettached from the mystical influences of the pilgrims.... The miraculous manifestation, the announced visible sign is about to happe - say many pilgrims... And then one watches a spectacle unique and unbelieavable for anyone who did not witness it. From the top of the road, where many cars are and many people to whom it was unworthy to step on the muddy soil, one sees all the immense crowd turn to the sun, which shows itselef cloudless, in its zenit. The star reminds us of a mat silver plaque, and one can look at it without any effort. It does not burn, it does not blind. One could say an eclipse was happening. But then a colossal uproar rises, and we can hear those closer to us shout:

- Miracle, miracle! Wonder, wonder!


Aos olhos deslumbrados d'aquele povo, cuja atitude nos transporta aos tempos biblicos e que, palido de assombro, com a cabeça descoberta, encara o azul, o sol tremeu, o sol teve nunca vistos movimentos bruscos fóra de todas as leis cosmicas - o sol «bailou», segundo a tipica expressão dos camponeses.. Empoleirado no estribo do auto-omnibus de Torres Novas, um ancião cuja estatura e cuja fisionomia, ao mesmo tempo doce e energica, lembram as de Paul Déroulède, recita, voltado para o sol, em voz clamorosa, de principio a fim, o Credo. Pergunte quem é e dizem-me ser o sr. João Maria Amado de Melo Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcelos.

According to the eyes of those people, whose attitude takes us to biblical times, and who face the blue (sky) with uncovered head, the sun had shaken, it had jolted in an unseen manner outside all cosmic laws - the sun «dancedd», according to the typical expression of the peasants. Up on footboard of a bus from Torres Novas, an elder whose height and countenance, at the same time sweet and energetic, akin to Paul Déroulède, recites the Creed, begining to end, in resounding voice, turned to the sun. Ask him who he is and I was told he was Mr. João Maria Amado de Melo Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcelos.

Vejo-o depois dirigir-se aos que o rodeiam, e que se conservaram de chapeu na cabeça, suplicando-lhes, veementemente, que se descubram em face de tão extraordinária demonstração da existência de Deus. Cenas idênticas repetem-se n'outros pontos e uma senhora clama, banhada em aflitivo pranto e quasi n'uma sufocarão:

- Que lastima! Ainda ha homens que se não descobrem deante de tão estupendo milagre!

I see him address those around him, and who keep their hats on their heads, begging them, vehemently, to take their hats off before such an extraordinary demonstration of the existence of God. Identical scenes are repeated at other spots and a lady cries out, bathed in sweet tears and almost loosing her breath:

- What a pitty! There are still men who do not find themselves before such a stupendous miracle!


E, a seguir, perguntam uns aos outros se viram e o que viram. O maior numero confessa que viu a tremura, o bailado do sol; outros, porém, declaram ter visto o rosto risonho da propria Virgem, juram que o sol girou sobre si mesmo como uma roda de fogo de artificio, que ele baixou quasi a ponto de queimar a terra com os seus raios... Ha quem diga que o viu mudar sucessivamente de côr...

São perto de quinze horas.

Then, next, they ask each other if they saw what they saw. The largest number confess they saw the shaking, the dancing of the sun; others, however, claim to have seen the smiling face of the Virgin herself, they swear the sun spinned around itself like a wheel of fireworks, that it came down almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays... some say they saw it change into several colors....

It is close to 3 pm.


"O Século", Lisbon (morning edition) 37 (l2.876) Oct. 15th, 1917, p. 1, cols. 6-7; p. 2, col. 1.

for full article (in Portuguese): http://www.paginaoriente.com/maria/report.htm

Hollywood's version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=951f67OJ2Ys
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« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2014, 02:12:56 PM »

I am very confused about this entire ordeal and do not believe in its validity. Since when does the Virgin Mary make predictions? There have been many versions,since the individuals who supposedly witnessed this apparent vision were questioned many, many times by various individuals and their stories changed. The thing that upsets me is that certain Catholic groups are using this apparent vision and predictions to make statements that Russia will be converted. They imply to the Latin Church.
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« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2014, 02:55:44 PM »

The thing that upsets me is that certain Catholic groups are using this apparent vision and predictions to make statements that Russia will be converted. They imply to the Latin Church.

Whoever is saying these things is simply wrong.  The Latin Church has specifically ordered that all Orthodox who come into communion with Rome retain their Greek/Byzantine rites, spirituality, and disciplines.  In fact, if they do wish to enter the Latin Church they have to obtain a special dispensation.

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« Reply #76 on: June 09, 2014, 03:46:29 PM »

As for the claims that it was not actually the sun, but something else, if it were named and clearly explained that it was not the miracle of the *sun* dancing, but the miracle of the "very big will-o'-the-wisp", it would be very less majestic and convincing, don't you think?

Yes, I suppose so. But then, I also suppose that's a big part of the reason that names like "the sun dancing" (without even a footnote that it may not have actually been the sun) are so common.
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« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2014, 03:50:27 PM »

The thing that upsets me is that certain Catholic groups are using this apparent vision and predictions to make statements that Russia will be converted. They imply to the Latin Church.

I see PorphyriosK responded to this already, but I'd like to chime in anyhow. It is wrong. The term "the Latin Church" does not refer to the entire Roman Communion, but specifically to the Western portion of it.
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« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2014, 04:54:19 PM »

I would add that there are some doubts about the nature of letters since it gives the impression that the Theotokos is "Immaculately Conceived" but let's just assume that this simply refers to Mary's Sinlessness and not Mary being shielded from Sin as in the Catholic interpretation of the Immaculate Conception.

This doesn't fit very well with the understanding of the Theotokos' sinlessness that many orthodox have, including St. John Maximovitch, which is that she became sinless after conception, perhaps considerably after.
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...for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord.


« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2014, 05:11:15 PM »


At some point I read that St Mary said that Russia will come to her heart by the Catholic Church and Russia will become Catholic. However, in another thread I read that one of the kids that saw and heard St Mary, said that Russia will remain Orthodox and it will come to hear heart that way ( which does makes sense, because after the 1990s Russia back again to Orthodoxy ).

There is nothing in the messages given by the Theotokos at Fatima that explicitly states that  Russia will become Catholic or remain Orthodox.
"In May of 1946, a Russian girl (Natacha Derfelden) in exile at Paris, went to the International Marian Con­ gress at Fatima and took Russian soil to place at the Shrine. Thirty-five thousand youth delegates from all the five continents joined with her in an act of consecrating Russia to the Immaculate Heart. It is rumored that Natacha was told by Sister Lucia (the visionary of Fatima) that the conversion of Russia would be completed through the Orthodox Church and the Oriental Rite. I received this news from Fatima, at the time, through a reliable reporter who said that he had corroborated it with Miss Derfelden. Later one of the greatest "underground” apostles of Our Lady of Fatima in the world, who visited the Russian Orthodox in Paris, passed the report to me verbally in New York"(Russia Will be Converted, John Haffert, President of the Blue Army, 1956, p. 204).
http://johnhaffert.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Russia-convert-2.pdf

Father Lance,

Yes, I am very much aware of the above statement by Sister Lucia as I have quoted it previously on other threads both here and over at The Byzantine Forum, but  I was referring to what the Theotokos Herself said at Fatima. Our Lady makes no mention of  the "conversion of Russia" as meaning converting to Catholicism or remaining Orthodox.
The above statement is from Sister Lucia.

Now, there is a letter by Sister Lucia with a statement that could imply the conversion of Russia to Catholicism:

Quote
Why this urgency of God that this Consecration should be made in union with all the bishops of the world? Because this Consecration is a call for unity of all Christians - The Mystical Body of Christ - whose head is the Pope, the one, true representative of Christ on earth to whom the Lord confided the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and on this union depends the faith in the world and the charity which is the bond that must unite all of us in Christ, as that which He wants, and as He asked the Father: "As You, O Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You have sent Me. . . I in them, and You in Me; that they be made perfect in one, and the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me" (John 17:21-23).
Source: https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/Fatima1984.htm
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griego catolico
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...for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord.


« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2014, 05:13:22 PM »

Is this really Sister Lúcia?



She looks like Sister Christina Scuccia, the winner of The Voice of Italy.

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Raylight
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« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2014, 05:23:50 PM »

Is this really Sister Lúcia?



She looks like Sister Christina Scuccia, the winner of The Voice of Italy.




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