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Author Topic: What Saint Mary actually said in Fatima City ?  (Read 1670 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 06, 2014, 03:18:08 AM »

I'm strong believer in the miracle of the sun and the appearance of Saint Mary in city of Fatima in 1917.

But I face a problem, and that is What did really Saint Mary say to the 3 kids ?

I visited some websites, but they seem to have things that I'm skeptic about.

At some point I read that St Mary said that Russia will come to her heart by the Catholic Church and Russia will become Catholic. However, in another thread I read that one of the kids that saw and heard St Mary, said that Russia will remain Orthodox and it will come to hear heart that way ( which does makes sense, because after the 1990s Russia back again to Orthodoxy ).

At another point there is a story that one of the kids asked about one of her friends that have passed lately, and St Mary said that the girl will remain in the Purgatory till the end of the world!

Therefor, I want a true, honest source where I can find what really St Mary said to the kids. Is there any ?

I would appreciate it if this thread does not turn into an argument about whether St Mary appeared in city of Fatima or didn't. Because to me personally I believe strongly that she did. ( Another thing I'm in disagreement with my fellow Evangelicals ).

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 03:44:57 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2014, 03:52:36 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.

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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2014, 03:59:56 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2014, 04:05:49 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

Double interesting  Wink

But do you please have any valid source that says what St Mary truly said in the appearance in general ?

I apologize if it was rude saying that such interpretation comes from "very fundamental Catholics". I need to change my mind then, because I don't think you are "fundy". ( xOrthodox4Christx used that word to describe me once and when I told one of my friends about it, he laughed out loud at the word "fundy" ).
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2014, 04:08:36 AM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2014, 05:28:00 AM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Scoff until the day it happens. Past poses have consecrated the world , not Russia particularly and further not in unison with the worlds bishops at the same time
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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 05:47:09 AM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Scoff until the day it happens. Past poses have consecrated the world , not Russia particularly and further not in unison with the worlds bishops at the same time


You're ignoring the fact that Russia has been Orthodox for more than a thousand years. Or are you trying to say that Orthodoxy isn't Christian?
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 05:56:23 AM »

While I honestly do believe in the Miracle at Fatima as well, I do not take the interpretation that the Theotokos actually prophesize of Russia becoming Catholic. The interpretation I believe comes from the second secret of Fatima in which I would quote,

Quote
    "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."[23]

My take on this is that it does not mean that Russia will convert to Catholicism but rather the "Consecration" would take place through the defeat of Communism. While I would again emphasize that I disagree with many of Roman Catholicism's doctrines as I would be offering positive remarks to a pope to make the case for my perspective. It should be noted that the late Pope John Paul ii played a major role in the downfall of Communism which the downfall of it would allow for the Russian Orthodox Church to flourish. If I'm not wrong in Russia, there was a resurgence of Orthodoxy after Communism's fall which would explain the part in which the Theotokos said that Russia will be converted.

I would add that there are some doubts about the nature of letters since it gives the impression that the Theotokos is "Immaculately Conceived" but let's just assume that this simply refers to Mary's Sinlessness and not Mary being shielded from Sin as in the Catholic interpretation of the Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 08:53:56 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  



At this point, the RC church should be more concerned about holding on to the countries that it currently has as opposed to expanding into Russia. Latin and South America are sliding quickly into Pentacostal Evangelicalism.
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« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2014, 09:14:58 AM »

Some Romans believe that when the apparition talks of "conversion of Russia" it means specifically conversion to Roman Catholicism. From a RC it makes sense, since from their stand we are a heresy and heretics have to convert to the true church. The concept that it is enough to believe in Christ is Protestant, not Orthodox or Roman. If one "believes in Christ" but is not a member of His Church, first, he does not fully believe, second he is not even baptized, despite whatever rite was performed.

Other Romans though, and the Orthodox who actually venerate the apparition, believe that it is conversion in the OT sense, where many times we see God speaking of the conversion of the enemies of the Jews meaning that they would stop being enemies or at least become peaceful and not that they would become Jews.

Also the apparition spoke of the "errors of Russia" not of communism in particular. Due to the "timing" of the apparition, obviously the radical socialist doctrine is the foremost one she was addressing, but some RC think that Russia will be the source of several errors until the day the Pope consacrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary *and* the RC faithful attend communion on every first saturday of the month (this second part of the condition is often forgotten). Of course, some include Orthodoxy as some of the errors that Russia would spread. Again, from that perspective, the current trend to support Orthodoxy is just one more case of "Russia spreading its errors".

Here is the text in Portuguese where the apparition makes the request:

"Se fizerem o que eu disser salvar-se-ão muitas almas e terão paz. A guerra vai acabar, mas se não deixarem de ofender a Deus, no reinado de Pio XI começará outra pior. Quando virdes uma noite, alumiada por uma luz desconhecida, sabei que é o grande sinal que Deus vos dá de que vai a punir o mundo dos seus crimes, por meio da guerra, da fome e de perseguições à Igreja e ao Santo Padre. Para a impedir virei pedir a consagração da Rússia a meu Imaculado Coração e a comunhão reparadora nos primeiros sábados. Se atenderem a meus pedidos, a Rússia se converterá e terão paz, se não, espalhará seus erros pelo mundo, promovendo guerras e perseguições à Igreja, os bons serão martirizados, o Santo Padre terá muito que sofrer, várias nações serão aniquiladas, por fim o meu Imaculado Coração triunfará. O Santo Padre consagrar-me-á a Rússia, que se converterá, e será concedido ao mundo algum tempo de paz".
http://www.cancaonova.com/cnova/dicas_fe/segr_fatima.html

Translation:
"If you do what I said, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. War will be over, but if you do not stop offending God, another worse war will come in the reign of Pio XI. When you see a night enlightened by an unknown light, know this is the great sign that God gives you that He is going to punish the world for its crimes, through war, starvation and persecutions to the Church and the Holy Father. To prevent this, I will come request the consacration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the redeeming communion on first saturdays. If you give me my requests, Russia will convert and you will have peace, if not, she will spread her errors to the world, promoting wars and persecution to the Church, the good ones will be martyrs, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated , but in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consacrate Russia to me, she will convert, and the world will have peace for some time."
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2014, 09:19:53 AM »

Quote
The consecration of Russia has not been done. 

Russia is the definition of consecration.
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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2014, 10:01:53 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  



At this point, the RC church should be more concerned about holding on to the countries that it currently has as opposed to expanding into Russia. Latin and South America are sliding quickly into Pentacostal Evangelicalism.

I agree, the RC Church have to start working on keeping her followers, specially in South America.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2014, 10:07:18 AM »

The interpretation I read was that Russia would become Roman Catholic.

Interesting, but I think such interpretation come from very fundamental Catholics. That is why I'm skeptic about it.



Actually its very consistent with the message of other Marian apparitions and prophecies of the saints. The return of the Orthodox to Catholicism will all start with Russia according to countless prophecies. The one at Fatima emphasizes the same message. The consecration of Russia has not been done.  



At this point, the RC church should be more concerned about holding on to the countries that it currently has as opposed to expanding into Russia. Latin and South America are sliding quickly into Pentacostal Evangelicalism.

I agree, the RC Church have to start working on keeping her followers, specially in South America.

If the Pope is necessary for salvation as Una Sancta determines, that would be non-sense. The merciful thing would be that everybody everywhere is under the Pope. Trying to recover South-America is not contradictory with trying to convert Russia.
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 10:09:37 AM »



Sparkle Russia
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2014, 11:02:17 AM »

Wrong. Whole world must be consecrated to Holy Russia.
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2014, 01:10:00 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2014, 01:16:05 PM »

If... IF.... BIG IF... Orthodox Christians started unifying with the Roman Catholic Church, they would not become Roman, and Russia definitely would not be the first to unify.
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 01:18:21 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.

I could actually believe the Fatima apparition. But the dancing sun miracle actually tells against it. 70 thousand saw it and a couple of witnesses outside Portugal. The issue is... if the sun is moving in the sky at least everybody on the bright side of the planet should see it.

As ludicrous as it may sound to believe that 70 thousand had a collective hallucination to see something, it is less unlikely than half the planet not seeing the sun dancing in the sky.

That, or it was a demonic illusion, a possibility that RCs in general find personally offensive, but one cannot rule out.
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 01:45:02 PM »

The consecration of Russia has not been done.  

laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Scoff until the day it happens. Past poses have consecrated the world , not Russia particularly and further not in unison with the worlds bishops at the same time


Interesting.  You trust the testimony of the visionary when it comes to what she saw and heard, and with regard to the necessity of the consecration of Russia, but you do not trust her testimony that it has in fact been accomplished as of 1984.  Do you believe that Sr Lucia was replaced at some point by an impostor (like the Bayside, NY folks who believe the original Pope Paul VI was replaced by an impostor in 1972 because of some weird Polaroid picture)?  Do you believe in any other conspiracy theories?

As to what constitutes "the conversion" of Russia, the actual text of the messages allegedly received does not specify anything.  How it has been interpreted seems to depend on how current events develop.  At one point, it was the conversion of Russia en toto to RCism, but since that hasn't happened in the last twenty years, the resurgence of Orthodoxy in Russia and the collapse of communism is cited as "the conversion".  Same with the so-called Third Secret: when it first came out, the prevailing interpretation was that it was a prophecy of Pope John Paul II's attempted assassination.  Now that there is a Pope and a Pope Emeritus who dress virtually identically, people are holding to the confusion in the Secret about the identity of the bishop in white (who supposedly was presumed to be the Pope but the visionaries were not certain) to say that it has nothing to do with Pope John Paul II and rather has to do with something yet to happen to one of the two Popes.  Others even claim that the Vatican hasn't released the full Third Secret, even though they said they did, leaving us with a "Third Secret", a "Fourth Secret" (in effect), and a Supreme Magisterium that cannot be trusted to be honest about non-binding phenomena like apparitions and other forms of private revelation.  Yet we are told we must submit to its proclamations concerning public revelation and the deposit of faith.   

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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 01:48:32 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.

No, it is not easy to hoax what happened in the city of Fatima that day. It is not easy to make 70 thousand person see the same thing at the same time and at the same place.

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Me, you and many others, don't need miracles to rest our believing in. BUT, it is arrogant and selfish to deny that there are other people in the world who need a miracle to believe.


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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 01:53:09 PM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 01:59:38 PM »

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Oh... oh my...
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« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 02:04:04 PM »



OMG who's the Pope on the other side of that window?!?!
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 02:04:46 PM »

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Oh... oh my...

Meaning ?
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 02:13:45 PM »

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Oh... oh my...

Actually it is. "I will just enter this closed room no one sees and I guarantee that candles will magically light up in there, just don't pick or the magic vanishes".

The only thing that prevents me from totally disbelieving it is that as tricks go that would be so lame as to not even be a magical trick at all; and the event has been surrounded by enemies of Christianity for centuries. If Muslims or radical Jews wanted a perfect chance to bring shame to Orthodox Christianity, exposing its faithful as gullible, the Holy Fire being fake would be it. Since they have not, either *they* are not as smart as they think, or they actually know that something happens there that is not that simple.
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 02:19:46 PM »

Many people will believe what they want to believe, even when they know it's been proven false. A surprising number are even self-aware and honest enough to admit that. As for the holy fire... [go back to beginning of this post] Wink

Or do a google search.
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2014, 02:33:17 PM »

Many people will believe what they want to believe, even when they know it's been proven false. A surprising number are even self-aware and honest enough to admit that. As for the holy fire... [go back to beginning of this post] Wink

Or do a google search.

I believe in the Holy Fire miracle, even though I'm not Orthodox. So, I guess I'm somehow less self-aware and not honest enough. right ? Even though I did search on the internet and watched that guy was on Greek TV channel and the joke he made thinking that it proves the miracle to be false.

Anyway, you believe in the miracle or you don't that is your choice, it is not like you will go to Hell for not believe in it. But this is something, and it is another to accuse those who believe in it of being somehow less intelligent.
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2014, 02:44:50 PM »

That's not what I said. I said there was a group of people (the majority, it seems, from polls and other evidence) who believed things they knew to be false. And then I remarked that some of this group were aware of and open about this cognitive dissonance, compartmentalizing, or whatever you want to call it.
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2014, 02:49:54 PM »

Though as I look at what I posted again, I can see why it was, and probably should have been, taken that way.
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2014, 02:51:18 PM »

That's not what I said. I said there was a group of people (the majority, it seems, from polls and other evidence) who believed things they knew to be false. And then I remarked that some of this group were aware of and open about this cognitive dissonance, compartmentalizing, or whatever you want to call it.

Oh, then my apology Smiley

That wouldn't be healthy, to believe in something you actually know it is not true. I wonder why would someone do so.
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2014, 03:33:24 PM »

I believe in fatima about as much as I believe in say oh...Some weeping icons. Both are easy to hoax and our salvation doesn't rest in believing in them.

No, it is not easy to hoax what happened in the city of Fatima that day. It is not easy to make 70 thousand person see the same thing at the same time and at the same place.

Just like it is not easy to hoax the miracle of the Holy Fire.

Me, you and many others, don't need miracles to rest our believing in. BUT, it is arrogant and selfish to deny that there are other people in the world who need a miracle to believe.




Yeah and was it 70 000 at knock too?
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2014, 03:36:51 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2014, 03:44:35 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2014, 04:30:11 PM »

There is also the possibility that a real apparition of the Theotokos was taken over by politics.

Some people have pointed out that there were two sisters Lucy, one who was the actual child in the apparition, and the other, later presented by the Vatican, who looks completely different.

Early photos of the original sister Lucy show a completely different person:

Earlier photos of Sister Lucy:



Later photos of alleged Sister Lucy:


Comparing both:




To me it's clear these are two different persons. I don't know why anyone go through the trouble of giving the public a false sister Lucy though.

I'm not one for believing in conspiracies but that's uh, a little alarming. I have mixed feelings on Fatima, to say the least.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2014, 04:58:18 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
I don't understand objections like this. Just because they saw the sun dancing does not mean the sun was literally dancing. There is a certain mystery to miracles. Why do you object to the rest of the sun-facing planet not seeing it and yet have no problem with the ensuing heat and freeze waves that would probably kill the Earth's population were the Sun to actually dance?

Adopting scientism in regards to miracles is a wholly inappropriate outlook.
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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2014, 05:01:35 PM »

For shame.  You cannot post something about the sun dancing without including a pic.

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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2014, 05:05:35 PM »

I don't believe it.
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2014, 05:37:40 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

Even Roman Catholic are allowed to not believe in it.

We're you there when St Mary was taken to the Heavens, body and soul ?

Anyway, end of the story.  Smiley


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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2014, 05:42:14 PM »

But we're you there to see 70 000 people see this? I'm not arrogant or selfish and that borders on a personal attack. I'm allowed not to believe in it. Heck I'm not roman Catholic

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?
I don't understand objections like this. Just because they saw the sun dancing does not mean the sun was literally dancing. There is a certain mystery to miracles. Why do you object to the rest of the sun-facing planet not seeing it and yet have no problem with the ensuing heat and freeze waves that would probably kill the Earth's population were the Sun to actually dance?

Adopting scientism in regards to miracles is a wholly inappropriate outlook.

That is exactly what my response was going to be.

I don't think that the sun literally danced. I believe St Mary did what she did by God's power and grace, to convenes the people who gathered at that time and place, many of them went there and were skeptics about it, even some Atheists went there ready to mock the kids...etc. So, the point wasn't making the sun literally dance.
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2014, 05:44:44 PM »

WARNING!! We forgot the main purpose of this thread, and that if there is a genuine source where I can find what St Mary really said to the kids then ?
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2014, 06:31:01 PM »

More importantly, there were around 2 billion people in the world at that time. Assuming half were sleeping on the other side of the globe, there were around 1 billion people awake on the "sun side". How come 999.930.000 people did *not* see the sun moving in the sky?

There are, of course, numerous quetions about what happened that day; but I believe this ^^ can be set aside. None of the "messages" claimed that what people saw was the sun. "Miracle of the sun", "day the sun danced" etc are just terms that witnesses and commentators came up with to describe the event.
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2014, 06:32:37 PM »

We forgot the main purpose of this thread, and that if there is a genuine source where I can find what St Mary really said to the kids then ?

Good question, but I don't know the answer.
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« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2014, 08:29:38 AM »

There can be no genuine source, since Mary didn't write it.
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2014, 10:05:46 AM »

Quote
The consecration of Russia has not been done. 

Russia is the definition of consecration.

Im very skeptical of the verse "...consecration to MY Sacred Heart..." portion.  I would think that St. Mary would be pushing for consecration to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after all, she is always pointing the way to Christ.  Im not saying 'something' didn't happen at Fatima but words mean things.  Im also not surprised that many RC's had accepted the statement about Russia's conversion as a definite return to Rome, which I sincerely doubt.  I read once that Russia before the revolution had more churchs dedicated to our Blessed Mother than all the dedicated churches in Europe.....  So, this conversion has to mean the return to Christianity and not Roman Catholicism as some would have you believe.
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