Author Topic: EO to OO  (Read 4522 times)

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Offline Nephi

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EO to OO
« on: June 06, 2014, 12:12:55 AM »
How do the various OO usually receive EO into their Churches? Are there individual Church-wide policies or is it more local (e.g. as per bishop or diocese)?

And I'm just curious, but are there any OO's on here that were EO?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2014, 12:45:15 AM »
How do the various OO usually receive EO into their Churches? Are there individual Church-wide policies or is it more local (e.g. as per bishop or diocese)?

The Church in India receives them (theoretically...it's not like we're overrun with EO) via confession.  IIRC, in addition to the canons of St Severus of Antioch, there is an official Synod resolution to this effect ca. 1980's. 

Quote
And I'm just curious, but are there any OO's on here that were EO?

Not me.  ;)
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Offline Alpo

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2014, 12:46:41 AM »
What we would need to confess? Something specific related to EOxy?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2014, 12:49:21 AM »
What we would need to confess?

Sins?

Quote
Something specific related to EOxy?

Most likely nothing more than the Nicene Creed.  There's no requirement for a Trullo 95 style libellus. 

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Offline Nephi

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2014, 02:22:28 AM »
How do the various OO usually receive EO into their Churches? Are there individual Church-wide policies or is it more local (e.g. as per bishop or diocese)?

The Church in India receives them (theoretically...it's not like we're overrun with EO) via confession.  IIRC, in addition to the canons of St Severus of Antioch, there is an official Synod resolution to this effect ca. 1980's. 

Quote
And I'm just curious, but are there any OO's on here that were EO?

Not me.  ;)

Interesting, so when one is received via confession, it's the sacrament of confession right? Or a confession of faith (I.e. the creed)?

Offline Alpo

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2014, 04:56:31 AM »
What we would need to confess?

Sins?

You just had to do that, didn't you? :P
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Jonathan

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2014, 07:15:52 AM »
A few decades ago it was baptism. Currently it is chrismation. But its common to commune them as visiting EO before confirming them to make them members of the Coptic Church. Seems pretty confused and inconsistent to me. Apparently now the policy is shifting to receiving by confession (and not confessing anything about councils or saints as far as i can tell... Just basically the same as anyone, confession before communion), but there isn't an official uniform policy from the synod.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 07:16:39 AM by Jonathan »

Offline Alpo

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 11:24:32 AM »
What was the rationale for baptizing EOs?
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Jonathan

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 11:27:43 AM »
What was the rationale for baptizing EOs?

Would have to be rational to have a rationale...

They said that you are Baptised into a faith, and since we're not in communion over a matter of faith (chalcedon) they are different baptisms into different faiths. So not saying EO are unbaptised, but it is a different baptism. I'll stick with the creed's one baptism into one church. Christ isn't a polygamist

Offline Alpo

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 11:32:35 AM »
Sounds weird. Not trying to turn this into a debate about anything but that's the most weird rationale for rebaptisms that I've heard.

Oh well. It's not my church. To each his/her own.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Jonathan

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2014, 11:55:40 AM »
Sounds weird. Not trying to turn this into a debate about anything but that's the most weird rationale for rebaptisms that I've heard.

Oh well. It's not my church. To each his/her own.

Hence why it isn't the case anymore :)

Offline Aram

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2014, 12:52:37 PM »
Armenians receive EO's by confession and communion.

Offline truthseeker32

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2014, 01:18:38 PM »
Has anyone moved from the EO to OO? I've never heard of such a case.

Offline Alpo

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2014, 01:22:42 PM »
IIRC we had a thread about some EO priest switcing to some OO church. I don't remember specifics. IIRC he viewed it just as a change of jurisdiction instead of switching to another church.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Aram

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2014, 01:31:27 PM »
Has anyone moved from the EO to OO? I've never heard of such a case.
My mom did, as did one of my uncles. It's not uncommon.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2014, 01:56:03 PM »
How do the various OO usually receive EO into their Churches? Are there individual Church-wide policies or is it more local (e.g. as per bishop or diocese)?

The Church in India receives them (theoretically...it's not like we're overrun with EO) via confession.  IIRC, in addition to the canons of St Severus of Antioch, there is an official Synod resolution to this effect ca. 1980's. 

Quote
And I'm just curious, but are there any OO's on here that were EO?

Not me.  ;)

Interesting, so when one is received via confession, it's the sacrament of confession right? Or a confession of faith (I.e. the creed)?

It is the sacrament of Confession.  But technically, every celebration of the sacrament of Confession involves a profession of faith.  The specific formula recited before the confession of sins includes the following (there's a typo, but I will leave it as is):

Quote
I confess to God the Father Almighty, and to His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and to the Holy Spirit, in the presence of our Lady the Virgin, ever sacred in her virginity, and all the holy angels, of Michael, of Gabriel, both chief of angels, and St. John the Baptist, of the holy apostles St. Peter and St. Paul, the twenty-four prophets, the twelve apostles, the four evangelists and the seventy-two sent forth.

I confess the holy faith of the three Ecumenical Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople and Ephesus in the most noble priesthood ascribed unto You, Father Priest, by which You loose and bind.

I have sinned through all my senses, both inwardly and outwardly, in word, in deed and in thought. My sin is great, very great, and I repent of it most sincerely, purposing not to fall again into the same ever, preferring death rather than embrace sin. And I ask you, by the authority of the sacred priesthood, that you absolve me and forgive, asking God to pardon me through His grace. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Repentance.html

Additionally, the Nicene Creed is an indispensable element in every liturgical rite and prayer. 
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2014, 02:07:27 PM »
IIRC we had a thread about some EO priest switcing to some OO church. I don't remember specifics. IIRC he viewed it just as a change of jurisdiction instead of switching to another church.

Yes! That was HG Bishop Sourial of Melbourne, Australia. No chrismation was done or ordination. Just revesting.  The priest was from the Serbian Orthodox Church.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36680.45.html
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 02:26:51 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Nephi

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2014, 02:11:33 PM »
It is the sacrament of Confession.  But technically, every celebration of the sacrament of Confession involves a profession of faith.  The specific formula recited before the confession of sins includes the following (there's a typo, but I will leave it as is):

Quote
I confess to God the Father Almighty, and to His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and to the Holy Spirit, in the presence of our Lady the Virgin, ever sacred in her virginity, and all the holy angels, of Michael, of Gabriel, both chief of angels, and St. John the Baptist, of the holy apostles St. Peter and St. Paul, the twenty-four prophets, the twelve apostles, the four evangelists and the seventy-two sent forth.

I confess the holy faith of the three Ecumenical Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople and Ephesus in the most noble priesthood ascribed unto You, Father Priest, by which You loose and bind.

I have sinned through all my senses, both inwardly and outwardly, in word, in deed and in thought. My sin is great, very great, and I repent of it most sincerely, purposing not to fall again into the same ever, preferring death rather than embrace sin. And I ask you, by the authority of the sacred priesthood, that you absolve me and forgive, asking God to pardon me through His grace. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Repentance.html

Additionally, the Nicene Creed is an indispensable element in every liturgical rite and prayer. 

Pretty neat, thanks. Is that pretty standard in the Syriac tradition? I only ask because I've never actually had a priest tell me to do what I've seen in any of the variations of Confession in EO prayerbooks.

I wonder how that compares to the other traditions that would receive by Confession.

Offline Jonathan

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2014, 02:12:23 PM »
IIRC we had a thread about some EO priest switcing to some OO church. I don't remember specifics. IIRC he viewed it just as a change of jurisdiction instead of switching to another church.

Yes! That was HG Bishop Sourial of Melbourne, Australia. No chrismation was done or ordination. Just revesting.  The priest was from the Serbian Orthodox Church.

I know a priest who was received by baptism a long time ago. Seen another priest received by chrismation. And seen laity received by confession. Hearing you describe a priest received by confession sounds very good to me.


Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2014, 02:19:06 PM »
IIRC we had a thread about some EO priest switcing to some OO church. I don't remember specifics. IIRC he viewed it just as a change of jurisdiction instead of switching to another church.

Yes! That was HG Bishop Sourial of Melbourne, Australia.

I read this and nearly fainted...until I read the rest about the Serbian priest.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2014, 02:22:14 PM »
It is the sacrament of Confession.  But technically, every celebration of the sacrament of Confession involves a profession of faith.  The specific formula recited before the confession of sins includes the following (there's a typo, but I will leave it as is):

Quote
I confess to God the Father Almighty, and to His beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and to the Holy Spirit, in the presence of our Lady the Virgin, ever sacred in her virginity, and all the holy angels, of Michael, of Gabriel, both chief of angels, and St. John the Baptist, of the holy apostles St. Peter and St. Paul, the twenty-four prophets, the twelve apostles, the four evangelists and the seventy-two sent forth.

I confess the holy faith of the three Ecumenical Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople and Ephesus in the most noble priesthood ascribed unto You, Father Priest, by which You loose and bind.

I have sinned through all my senses, both inwardly and outwardly, in word, in deed and in thought. My sin is great, very great, and I repent of it most sincerely, purposing not to fall again into the same ever, preferring death rather than embrace sin. And I ask you, by the authority of the sacred priesthood, that you absolve me and forgive, asking God to pardon me through His grace. Amen.

http://sor.cua.edu/Liturgy/Anaphora/Repentance.html

Additionally, the Nicene Creed is an indispensable element in every liturgical rite and prayer. 

Pretty neat, thanks. Is that pretty standard in the Syriac tradition? I only ask because I've never actually had a priest tell me to do what I've seen in any of the variations of Confession in EO prayerbooks.

I wonder how that compares to the other traditions that would receive by Confession.

Yes, I'd like to know more about this.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2014, 02:28:08 PM »
IIRC we had a thread about some EO priest switcing to some OO church. I don't remember specifics. IIRC he viewed it just as a change of jurisdiction instead of switching to another church.

Yes! That was HG Bishop Sourial of Melbourne, Australia. No chrismation was done or ordination. Just revesting.  The priest was from the Serbian Orthodox Church.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,36680.45.html
sorry for the late modification. Here is a past thread that talks about this
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2014, 02:31:08 PM »
Pretty neat, thanks. Is that pretty standard in the Syriac tradition? I only ask because I've never actually had a priest tell me to do what I've seen in any of the variations of Confession in EO prayerbooks.

In my experience, it varies.  "Older" priests tend to make the confessional experience into a sort of sacramental chat: some encouraging words, confession of and discussion of sins and related issues, followed by the assigning of a penance if deemed beneficial and ending with absolution.  "Newer' priests tend to do all this, but will still have you recite the ritual formulae.  Most of my recent confessions have been conducted in this way.  

Again, this is reflective of my experience with Indian practice.  I don't know how the Middle Eastern communities do things.  
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2014, 02:33:52 PM »
IIRC we had a thread about some EO priest switcing to some OO church. I don't remember specifics. IIRC he viewed it just as a change of jurisdiction instead of switching to another church.

Yes! That was HG Bishop Sourial of Melbourne, Australia. No chrismation was done or ordination. Just revesting.  The priest was from the Serbian Orthodox Church.

I know a priest who was received by baptism a long time ago. Seen another priest received by chrismation. And seen laity received by confession. Hearing you describe a priest received by confession sounds very good to me.


Hopefully we stop this whole re-baptize, re-chrismate, or re-ordain once and for all in these cases and follow the canons of Sts Timothy, Severus, and Theodosius.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2014, 03:21:28 PM »
Oh, here's another, much less significant, question:

How is an EO with a post-schism baptismal/Christian name and patron saint handled? Like if a female EO's name were Xenia after St. Xenia of Petersburg, what happens when they're received?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2014, 04:10:06 PM »
Oh, here's another, much less significant, question:

How is an EO with a post-schism baptismal/Christian name and patron saint handled? Like if a female EO's name were Xenia after St. Xenia of Petersburg, what happens when they're received?

I don't think it matters terribly.  IIRC, one of our Metropolitans is said to have taken the name Seraphim at his ordination because of his fondness for St Seraphim of Sarov, not because of his fondness for the angelic rank. 
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2014, 04:16:44 PM »
So when is the big switch, Nephi?  8)

Offline Theophania

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2014, 04:18:24 PM »
Nephi becomes OO, followed by Mor becoming EO. Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 04:18:35 PM by kelly »
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2014, 04:18:42 PM »
So when is the big switch, Nephi?  8)

I wait for you, Justin.  
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2014, 04:20:49 PM »
Nephi becomes OO, followed by Mor becoming EO. Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mor becoming EO is like the secret dream of many OCNetters.  And the well-known nightmare of others. 

Mor is always the best :P

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Offline Theophania

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2014, 04:21:37 PM »
Nephi becomes OO, followed by Mor becoming EO. Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mor becoming EO is like the secret dream of many OCNetters.  And the well-known nightmare of others. 



One of us, one of us!
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2014, 04:23:36 PM »
Nephi becomes OO, followed by Mor becoming EO. Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mor becoming EO is like the secret dream of many OCNetters.  And the well-known nightmare of others. 



One of us, one of us!

Eh, in God's eyes it is already so.  I'm not sure why I have to annoy one group of bishops to please another.  But you never know...
Mor is always the best :P

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Offline Theophania

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2014, 04:25:15 PM »
Nephi becomes OO, followed by Mor becoming EO. Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mor becoming EO is like the secret dream of many OCNetters.  And the well-known nightmare of others. 



One of us, one of us!

Eh, in God's eyes it is already so.  I'm not sure why I have to annoy one group of bishops to please another.  But you never know...

My hilarious movie quotes are flying over your head, my friend.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2014, 04:30:57 PM »
My hilarious movie quotes are flying over your head, my friend.

I'm not very cultured and sophisticated, am I? 
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2014, 04:34:03 PM »
Nephi becomes OO, followed by Mor becoming EO. Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes... The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

Mor becoming EO is like the secret dream of many OCNetters.  And the well-known nightmare of others. 


The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2014, 04:52:05 PM »
My hilarious movie quotes are flying over your head, my friend.



I, on the other hand, enjoy them immensely. 

And I love the little wordless gifs with the apropos gestures and expressions more.  That Beyoncé one in the Antiochian thread was hypnotic.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2014, 04:53:35 PM »
If Mor Ephrem became EO and Nephi didn't want to go, would we have to send someone over to them? Sort of like a prisoner exchange? How about ialmisry? He already knows some of the culture/language involved, and he could teach them how to be unfriendly to Catholics.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2014, 04:55:55 PM »
If Mor Ephrem became EO and Nephi didn't want to go, would we have to send someone over to them? Sort of like a prisoner exchange? How about ialmisry? He already knows some of the culture/language involved, and he could teach them how to be unfriendly to Catholics.
I'm pretty sure they would return him after about 2 days.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Nephi

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2014, 05:02:13 PM »
I don't think it matters terribly.  IIRC, one of our Metropolitans is said to have taken the name Seraphim at his ordination because of his fondness for St Seraphim of Sarov, not because of his fondness for the angelic rank.

Hey that's cool, and not because Seraphim is my baptismal name or anything. :angel:

Offline Nephi

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2014, 05:04:57 PM »
So when is the big switch, Nephi?  8)

You'll be on the list of people I send save-the-dates to. ;)

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2014, 05:05:24 PM »
That Beyoncé one in the Antiochian thread was hypnotic.

Yes.  Positively sin-inducing.  I wouldn't have it otherwise.  
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

Offline Theophania

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2014, 05:16:15 PM »
My hilarious movie quotes are flying over your head, my friend.



I, on the other hand, enjoy them immensely. 

And I love the little wordless gifs with the apropos gestures and expressions more.  That Beyoncé one in the Antiochian thread was hypnotic.

It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2014, 05:20:51 PM »
Ladies can do that all day if they want, but it's still not going to get rid of the loose skin in the triceps area.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2014, 05:25:47 PM »
Ladies can do that all day if they want, but it's still not going to get rid of the loose skin in the triceps area.

No one thought you were ready for that jelly anyway.
Mor is always the best :P

Mor gives each new member a golden shirt!  !trihs nedlog a rebmem wen hcae sevig roM 

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Re: EO to OO
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2014, 06:08:34 PM »
Ladies can do that all day if they want, but it's still not going to get rid of the loose skin in the triceps area.

No one thought you were ready for that jelly anyway.

LOL!!!!!!
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