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Author Topic: The Prophetic Gift in Oriental Orthodoxy  (Read 4930 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ntinos
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« on: April 17, 2005, 02:54:38 PM »

Lately, while examining the prophecies of Eastern Orthodox fathers, I came to wonder if there are any prophecies in the other Churches. I came across some Catholic prophecies, and then I was wondering if the Oriental Orthodox Churches have any modern time prophecies. Could someone enlighten me?

Also, if there are prophecies, I would be grateful if someone could post them below.
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2005, 02:58:51 PM »

Brother Ntinos,

What do you mean by "prophecies"? Do you mean "telling the Future" ?
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 03:44:27 PM »

Yes, but not the way charlatans do it. The way the prophets in the Old Testament did it, and the way the Orthodox Fathers ever since Jesus lifted up in the skies have been doing it.

What I mean, is whether there are Copts with the prophetic gift granted from God in return for their ascetism, and which those prophecies are.
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 12:08:23 PM »

Yes, but not the way charlatans do it. The way the prophets in the Old Testament did it, and the way the Orthodox Fathers ever since Jesus lifted up in the skies have been doing it.

What I mean, is whether there are Copts with the prophetic gift granted from God in return for their ascetism, and which those prophecies are.
Yes, but not the way charlatans do it. The way the prophets in the Old Testament did it, and the way the Orthodox Fathers ever since Jesus lifted up in the skies have been doing it.

What I mean, is whether there are Copts with the prophetic gift granted from God in return for their ascetism, and which those prophecies are.

Dear Ntinos,

What I can tell you is that we have many saints who had the gift of clairvoyance.  The late Pope Kyrillos VI, who is perhaps one of the greatest Orthodox saints of the 20th century, had this gift in a very intense way.  There are literally thousands of stories documented of this with him.  In many cases, this gift of clairvoyance included prophetic words for the benefit of individuals in need of healing, help, etc...not necessarily in terms of predicting major future events or anything like that.

There are many monks/nuns alive now in the Coptic Church who have this gift.

In Christ,
Raouf
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 12:50:22 PM »

Concerning prophecy, how are we to determine what is real and what is not real? I have seen many individuals claiming to have the gift and many have been accurate in their predictions so to speak. Some of these men and women are in Protestant churches.

Thanks
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2005, 01:07:54 PM »

Quote
What I can tell you is that we have many saints who had the gift of clairvoyance.  The late Pope Kyrillos VI, who is perhaps one of the greatest Orthodox saints of the 20th century, had this gift in a very intense way.  There are literally thousands of stories documented of this with him.  In many cases, this gift of clairvoyance included prophetic words for the benefit of individuals in need of healing, help, etc...not necessarily in terms of predicting major future events or anything like that.

There are many monks/nuns alive now in the Coptic Church who have this gift.

I would be grateful if you could present some that are referring to major events about to happen.
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2005, 01:30:49 PM »



I would be grateful if you could present some that are referring to major events about to happen.

Sorry I meant that many monks/nuns have the gift of clairvoyance, not predicting future events.
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2005, 06:36:29 PM »

To be honest I do know of one who calls himself prophet and has written many books - some foretelling that which is to come. However, I will refrain from listing his name and or website because I question his ethics and integrity.
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 04:24:12 PM »

Ntinos,

to be honest with you , I wonder why you want to know such a thing.

Church has hers own time schema: from future to present to past. That's opposite to everyone else's time road map.

Christians begin from the end. Everything starts from the end. Because of this that will take place things of present and things from past are justified. The incarnation of Christ was because he will come again. The eschatological time for Church is sometimes confused with the future telling. The things to be are already lived by Church. If someone comes to tell you that you will be saved in Judgement Day, then he tells you something you already know because you are living now the same personal relationship with Christ as that will take place then.

There are so called churches that have prophets that tell the future. These people are not taking about Heaven, because "Heaven is within", not in the future. Heaven is not there and then, but It is now and inside us.

There are not "modern time prophecies". All prophesies and laws were talking about the “future” Christ to be. So now that Christ is here there is not a future Christ. Christ is now.

The prophesy gift that is mentioned in Book of Act is about praying while being enlighten and about presenting the unseen realities of Heaven to other fellow Christians that they don't see them. It is not about telling the future.

Having said that it is in this context that many members of the Church have the gift of insight vision (in greek: dioratikotita) and of discrimination (in greek: diakrisi). These gifts are actually penetrating time road map from the future to present. They bring our present into a “future” that already is a fact for the gifted person rather than bringing our unknown future into the present reality.

So I think that the answer in your question is:

Matthew 11:7-15

7 As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, "What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?
8 "But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings' palaces!
9 "But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet.
10"This is the one about whom it is written,
    '(K)BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
    WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'
11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.
13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
14 "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
15 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

The "until" in above passage has the meaning that after John there is nothing to foretell.
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 11:19:20 PM »

There is a Coptic Orthodox monastery a couple of hours from where I live.  Sometimes my friends and I  drive there on a Saturday morning.  You have to leave pretty early and the drive can be tiring. 

Once, a couple of years ago, one of my friends had a little coffee and a bite of a cookie before she left her house to give her some strength to deal with the long, early morning journey.  None of us were aware that she had broken the fast.  When we got to the monastery, we went to the church where the Liturgy had just started.  I did not take Communion that day (it's a long story,) but my other friends all went up.  When my friend who had had the coffee and cookie went up to receive the Sacrament, the monk who was administering it seemed to say something to her.  He had not said anything to anyone else.  My friend went away from him without partaking and came back to where I was standing.  Later she revealed to us that the monk had asked her if she had eaten anything.  She had to admit to him that she had.  That is why she went away without partaking. 

This seemed weird, given that the monk had not asked that question of anyone else and there was no way from looking at my friend that you could tell she had eaten anything.  It's not like she had crumbs all over her face.

Anyway, whenever I'm around that monk, I try to think good thoughts!  Smiley

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2005, 12:30:16 PM »

There is a Coptic Orthodox monastery a couple of hours from where I live. Sometimes my friends and I drive there on a Saturday morning. You have to leave pretty early and the drive can be tiring.

Once, a couple of years ago, one of my friends had a little coffee and a bite of a cookie before she left her house to give her some strength to deal with the long, early morning journey. None of us were aware that she had broken the fast. When we got to the monastery, we went to the church where the Liturgy had just started. I did not take Communion that day (it's a long story,) but my other friends all went up. When my friend who had had the coffee and cookie went up to receive the Sacrament, the monk who was administering it seemed to say something to her. He had not said anything to anyone else. My friend went away from him without partaking and came back to where I was standing. Later she revealed to us that the monk had asked her if she had eaten anything. She had to admit to him that she had. That is why she went away without partaking.

This seemed weird, given that the monk had not asked that question of anyone else and there was no way from looking at my friend that you could tell she had eaten anything. It's not like she had crumbs all over her face.

Anyway, whenever I'm around that monk, I try to think good thoughts! Smiley



Dear Salpy,

That reminds me of one of the stories of Pope Kyrillos VI when he was serving Divine Liturgy at the cathedral.  A young lady approached to partake of the Eucharist and the Pope looked at her and told her to step aside because she was not baptized!  He told her to come to him after the Liturgy with her parents.  When the parents came to the Pope after the liturgy he scolded them for never baptizing their daughter who was now a young lady.  They were totally confused since the Pope didn't know them or anything about them.  But they confessed that when their daughter was born, they made a promise that they would baptize their daughter in a certain local Church named after the great martyr St Demiana.  They never fulfilled their promise and never baptized their child. Of course it is amazing that all those years she had been partaking of all the Mysteries of the Church and yet this great saint could see in a glimpse of a mement that she lacked the grace of Holy Baptism.

This is just one of thousands of similar stories documented about the late great St. Pope Kyrillos VI.

In Christ,
Raouf
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2005, 04:18:43 PM »

Quote
Ntinos,

to be honest with you , I wonder why you want to know such a thing.

Because I have found an awful lot of prophecies from Orthodox Church Fathers that sound really apocalyptic and concern our times. I like the issue very much, and I was wondering whether the other Churches also had similar prophecies: The Catholic Church does have prophecies concerning our times, but I really don't know if I can trust them. The truth is I would like to have a complete collection of prophecies from many Churches, and since the Oriental Orthodox Churches do have elders with a gift of clairvoyance (as it turned out) I would like to know more...

According to what I read, it seems that specific Elders of the Oriental Orthodox Church do have a gift for clairvoyance, but not prophesy itself. However, I would be grateful if you could find actual prophecies from OOC fathers, if such prophecies exist.
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2005, 07:39:12 AM »

If i'm not mistaken Raouf, did not the late Pope Kyrillos XI desire the building of St Mina's Cathedral in Alexandria upon prophetic knowledge of certain future events?

From what I heard, he was asked by a curious inquirer as to why it was that he was putting money towards the building of such a huge cathedral in the middle of nowhere; to which Pope Kyrillos responded by saying that there would come a dark day when the Islamics will burn and destroy all the Coptic church's in Alexandria. St Mina's Cathedral in the desert would then be the only place left for all the Alexandrian Copts to gather and pray.

Peace.
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2005, 01:12:59 PM »

If i'm not mistaken Raouf, did not the late Pope Kyrillos XI desire the building of St Mina's Cathedral in Alexandria upon prophetic knowledge of certain future events?

From what I heard, he was asked by a curious inquirer as to why it was that he was putting money towards the building of such a huge cathedral in the middle of nowhere; to which Pope Kyrillos responded by saying that there would come a dark day when the Islamics will burn and destroy all the Coptic church's in Alexandria. St Mina's Cathedral in the desert would then be the only place left for all the Alexandrian Copts to gather and pray.

Peace.

I had never heard this story...very interesting. I have no doubt that a saint like Pope Kyrillos VI actually saw many things by the Spirit. However, his extreme humility would have hidden these gifts. In terms of his incredible gift of clairvoyance, this was only made apparent because of his immense love for his people. So, it is no surprise these things surfaced in connection with his comfort to one who was ill, to another who was struggling in his work, to another with his studies, to another with his spiritual warfares, to another with his falling into the arms of the evil of the world...It was always for the benefit of the others. There were numerous times, however, that the Lord wished to glorify this saint by allowing others to gain a glimpse of his other spiritual gifts...

In my readings of the lives of the saints, I have yet to find a better example of humility, especially of one raised to such ecclesiastical ranks. This, along with his intense life of prayer, us what opened up the heavenly world before him, making it more concrete and tangible to him, then the things seen and touched in this world.

In Christ,
Raouf
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2005, 02:22:27 PM »

When did Pope Kyrillos live?

This prophecy is exactly like what I was expecting to hear.  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2005, 06:39:33 PM »

When did Pope Kyrillos live?

This prophecy is exactly like what I was expecting to hear. Smiley

At this link is a simple powerpoint presentation I prepared a few years ago for a youth discussion:

http://www.stmina-monastery.org/PopeKyrillosVIbyRIbrahim.ppt

It will give you a decent overview of his life with some pictures.

Also, at this link you can find some of the stories of his miracles:

http://www.stmina-monastery.org/miracles.htm

In Christ,
Raouf
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2005, 08:02:25 PM »

Brothers,

Let me point that the assumed prophesy of pope Kyrillos refers to earthly matters "...there would come a dark day when the Islamics will burn and destroy all the Coptic church's in Alexandria...".

This is future telling, not prophesy.
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« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2005, 08:56:22 AM »

Where can I find more information on Pope Kyrillios VI? I found limited information about him on the web but I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find books about him or written by him. He was born in 1902 and died in 1971 (I think)

I found it interesting the way the way he became Pope. I read that all of the qualified candidates names were placed on a table and then a young Deacon randomly chose one of the pieces of paper and that's how Pope Kyrillos was elected. Can anyone confirm this? Also, does this practice of electing a Pope still take place in the Coptic Church today?

-Reconciled
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« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2005, 11:38:55 PM »

IC XC NIKA
Reconciled.
www.orthodoxbookstore.org you can find books on Pope Cyril. 
The question of how our pope is chosen.  Yes, that is how it was done, and that is the way it is still done.  That is why Copts have such a deep love for our Pope, since he is literally chosen from us. 
Also, and I think I read this on coptichymns.net.  There are actually 4 names, 3 candidates, and one with the Name of Jesus on it.   If the ballet with Jesus is picked, all the 3 candidates are "dropped."  And three more are picked.
The thing I really like about the late Pope Cyril, was to me, he seems like a true modern Church Father.  A wonderful monastic, like Athony and Moses, yet a great Patriarch like Cyril and Basil. 
Finally, if you are ever in the Washington D.C. area, feel free to come to St. Marks.  We have some relics of this late pope.
in Christ,
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2005, 09:09:41 AM »

Thank you CopticOrthodoxboy. I'm going to check out that bookstore as soon as I'm done writing this reply.  I have a question for you. It may be dumb but I'm going to ask it anyway. Were you born into orthodoxy? Meaning did you grow up going to the orthodox church or did you find orthodoxy on your own. I grew up going to Protestant Churches and over the past 7 years I have been studying trying to find out what I really believe and not necessarily what I was told to believe.

Thanks bunches!

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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2005, 09:09:10 PM »

IC XC NIKA
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No, I was born into a Protestant family, at a young age (15) converted to Roman Catholicism, and was strongly considering become a friar of an Order by the name of the Franciscans of the Primative Observance (a reform group, living strictly the Franciscan life, much like the reform of the Cappuchins, who after Vatican 2, have become rather "weak" on their interpretation of the Franciscan life for the First and Second order). However, as I moved deeper into Catholicism, I, to put it simply, denied Papal Infallibility. I went to a Coptic Orthodox Church (can you believe, just 3 miles from my house), and started attending Divine Liturgy. I have a wonderful relationship with the priests there, who to me are true spiritual directors.  I was Baptized and Chrismed on my 18th birthday, and struggle daily to live as a true Orthodox Christian.
in Christ
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2005, 09:33:35 AM »

Thanks Shawn,

You are an encouragement to me. I to was drawn to Roman Catholicism but after attending a couple of the inquiry classes I knew there was more. I am very happy to have found the posts on the Prophetic Gift and Orthodoxy as I am most interested in both. When I saw the posts about Pope Kyrillios I was elated and immediately started my research. I can read and study on my own but I long to attend a church. I haven't been able to find one in my area (Miami). At any rate, thanks for sharing your experience with me. I'm sure in due time and in due season I will find a church where I can once again partake in the Divine Liturgy. But until then, I will continue to read about Pope Kyrillios.

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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2005, 11:05:46 AM »

IC XC NIKA
Reconciled,
www.coptic.org
look under North America, and then look under Southern U.S. Diocese (at top of the page).  I saw a few churches in Florida, even Miami (go Dolphins, try to win more than 2 games this year!).
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2005, 01:21:07 PM »

Go Dolphins!  Grin

I just moved here a in March from Denver. Believe it or not I actually entered a football pool while in Denver and voted on the Dolphins. Obviously I had money to throw away!

I ordered two books from the Orthodox Bookstore. I ordered Apostolic Succession and the Life of Pope St. Kyrillos. (I always feel like I'm spelling his name wrong!)  At any rate, that ought to keep me busy for a while. There is such a wide selection of books. I guess my football pool money will now be put to better use. I'll go look for a church now. Again, thank you for all of your help. You are helping me so much.

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« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2005, 08:44:29 AM »

Hi Copticorthodoxboy,

Just wanted to let you know that I did find a church. I had gone to that website before but wasn't able to find the church that was listed as being in Miami. Nevertheless, I found another one and spoke with the Priest via email. I will be attending on Sunday. Woohoo!!! Thanks for all of your help.

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« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2005, 08:51:45 PM »

IC XC NIKA
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I have a strong feeling that if you go this Sunday, you will be walking into a locked door. You may wonder, "Where is Abouna, all the laity, etc.?" Well, I'll give you a hint. Abouna will probably be in bed, sleeping. The laity, will be up at IHOP, eating some pancakes and eggs, with 3 strips of bacon.
Okay, I'll tell you, it is Easter this Sunday. If you want to attend the Liturgy, go Saturday night. Haha, it is one of the longer Liturgies of the year (about 5 hours, with the raising of incense), so wear thick socks.
Well, I shouldn't have even really been on the internet today, but I did. I'm "fasting" from it till Sunday, so I'll talk to you then.
copticorthodoxboy Tongue
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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2005, 01:24:15 PM »

Thanks for the heads up. Will talk to you after Sunday.

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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2005, 09:00:04 AM »

Copticorthodoxboy,

Happy Easter! You were absolutely right about Sunday services. I contacted the Priest at the church and he told me that I should come next Sunday as Liturgy on Saturday night would not end until after midnight. Whew!

So I have received my books and have begun reading about Pope Kyrillos. The bookstore was prompt. I will be ordering more materials in the near future. So this Sunday I will be attending church. What should I expect? Huh

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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2005, 12:53:36 PM »

IC XC NIKA
You should expect a bunch of crazy Egyptians.  Tongue
Okay, as a norm, when entering the church, remove your shoes, and go to your right hand side (since gererally speaking, that is where the females sit).  It isn't a doctrine, of course, but you might feel weird being with all the males on the left side of the church.  Hmm, also as a norm, not a doctine, you should have a head covering (haha, not a baseball cap, of course).  In my church, they have some at the front of the church, but if you don't feel comfortable wearing one, you are free not too.
Unlike EO and most Eastern Rite Catholics, we make the sign of the cross from the left shoulder to the right, like Latin Rite Catholics. 
Hmm, also, don't be nervous.  You will obviously not know what is going on your first time, espically if the liturgy uses a lot of Coptic and Arabic.  Don't worry, haha, just keep at it, you'll get it eventually.  There is going to be a lot of incense, sooo, well, you'll feel clean inside (trust me, the priests in the Coptic Church love the incense), breathing in all that incense.  When you aproach Abouna (that is, the priest) after the Litrugy, he will rip a piece of the left over bread that wasn't used in the Litrugy (it is called Korban).  Just peck his hand or hand cross (with you lips), and take the bread from his hand.   
You also won't have to worry about fasting for the next 50 days, okay, till pentecost.  However, I must tell you, our bishops are obsessed with fasting.  So, talk with Abouna, he'll instruct you on the fasting rules.  As I said, we fast a lot, so I hope you like soy products, because that, with nuts and peanutbutter are going to be your only source of protein for the big fasts.
I don't know what else really too say. The people at my church are very kind.  OHHHHHHH, okay, one final note.  You have to remember you are going to a Egytian church.  Cover up fairly well.  I'm not saying you have to dress like a nun, but where not to tight pants or dress, and a simple shirt.  However, also remember, that sometimes Orthodox Churches can put their culture as Orthodoxy.  Allow Abouna to help you distinguish; ohh, and all Abounas have BEARDS, so don't be afraid.

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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2005, 07:00:53 PM »

Thanks Copticorthodoxboy!

Some of this is very familiar. I attended an Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Not one word of English! I felt so out of place. I couldn't wait until the service was over! I've attended Catholic Churches and a Greek Orthodox Church and another orthodox church that I'm told is vagante (I think that's the word). It got to a place where I couldn't remember which way I was supposed to be crossing myself. They would turn to the east and I would look to the west. It was hilarious! I was laughing inside. I said to myself 'you've got to stop attending all of these churches and just pick one. Everything is beginning to run together.'

I'm really looking forward to it. The service is from 7:00 - 9:30. I think that's what he said. Gotta check my email.

And as far as fasting, I am a vegetarian. I pretty much live off of soy products. That's what makes fasting a bit depressing for me because I feel like I can't really participate.

Reading my book on Pope Saint Kyrillos. What a powerful man of God!

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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2005, 07:14:59 PM »

IC XC NIKA
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I must say, that many priests try to use as much English as possible.  So, I'm sure you'll be able to follow very well.  At my church, both our priests (one a native Egyptian, the other, a native Egyptian American) use English during most of the Liturgy.  During the hymns for the interestion of the saints, our deacons usually use Coptic.  And every once and a while, either priest will go into Arabic, but it is usually at the commeration of the saints, or something like this.  SO, I'm convinced that you will hear a lot of Englsih.
copticorthodoxboy
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2005, 01:03:38 PM »

Copticorthodoxboy,

I can't thank you enough for all of your help. You are truly heaven sent as I didn't know what to do concerning my Orthodox journey. Thank you for your kindness and most importantly your passion. I'll definitley be in touch to let you know how things go on Sunday. I'm sure all will be well.

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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2005, 09:55:54 PM »

IC XC NIKA
Reconciled,
I'm not as good as I seem on the internet.  To be honest, I haven't been to church in 8 weeks.  I struggle daily, and I find it harder and harder daily to become more and more personal with a God that to me grows more and more distant daily.  So keep me in your prayers. 
shawn
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2005, 08:37:28 PM »

Coptic,

I know the feeling. Rather than responding here, I emailed you.

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Tags: clairvoyance prophesy prophecy Coptic Orthodox Church saints Oriental Orthodox saints 
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