Author Topic: How to Address Transgender  (Read 10313 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2014, 01:21:31 PM »
Let's not borrow other peoples travails. Into each life God allows the appropriate proportion of suffering. By hyperactively borrowing tribulation of all kinds all over the world, we moderns are destroying ourselves (and maligning His name).

I will go so far as to say if I am faced with a person struggling with gender (and there are a few in this town), then I will offer him attentive respect and friendship.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Theophania

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2014, 01:23:35 PM »
Let's not borrow other peoples travails. Into each life God allows the appropriate proportion of suffering. By hyperactively borrowing tribulation of all kinds all over the world, we moderns are destroying ourselves (and maligning His name).

I will go so far as to say if I am faced with a person struggling with gender (and there are a few in this town), then I will offer him attentive respect and friendship.

This is the best thing to do.

You're living up to your friendly avatar, Porter!
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2014, 01:24:05 PM »
I'll also add what I think is a commonsense observation -- common sense but for some reason not commonly admitted: that a person's changing gender or sex does not end that person's travails. Not at all. The suffering becomes a different kind.

So, Lord, have mercy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2014, 01:26:02 PM »
Let's not borrow other peoples travails. Into each life God allows the appropriate proportion of suffering. By hyperactively borrowing tribulation of all kinds all over the world, we moderns are destroying ourselves (and maligning His name).

I will go so far as to say if I am faced with a person struggling with gender (and there are a few in this town), then I will offer him attentive respect and friendship.

Very good answer. This does seem to be one of those issues best left to your individual pastor. But I imagine we are discussing it because we are interested in the idea of gender roles and what their basis is, e.g. are they purely social constructs with no intrinsic validity, or are they grounded in biological nature, and how does that relate to the Church's teaching.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2014, 01:26:14 PM »
I know personally three intersex people. Two have Kleinfelter's syndrome (the commonest chromosomic disorder after Down), the third is a 'true hermaphrodite'. I don't care how rare their conditions are; they are people, not numbers.
The foolish notion of redefining the 98% doesn't make them more a person.

Who redefined what? I just can't buy into the '1/1000 is negligible' after meeting those people.
but you will try to sell that 7+ billion are negligible.
The two Kleinfelters were assigned male at birth, and both identify as female as adults; I feel that, if sex has to be assigned by some human authority (doctors and/or parents), then another human authority (the child, once grown/aware) has every right to reassign it, if they feel it is wrong.
Who said there was any 'right' to assign, let alone 'reassign'?

Take that one up with the medical establishment.
I do, but it seems you are going to let it lay there.
btw, they are "two persons with Kleinfelters" not "two Kleinfelters."  And the Y chromonsome they have does the assigning.  Hence the term "XXY males", or "47,XXY males" for the men who have the syndrome.

They also have two X's. They are called 'males' because their phenotype is usually towards the masculine end, though not exclusively. (One of my friends, you literally can't tell, voice and all. She'd make a fine contralto, or countertenor.)
They are males (no quotation marks) because they have the tell tale "Y."

It's not in the voice-Michael Jackson and Lauren Bacall showed that.
Through such contacts I've come to understand that so-called gender dysphoria often has little to do with sexual activity itself. Some sex-ambiguous people are asexual, others have no interest in surgery, knowing that, with or without it, their bodies will never look as they wish they did.
They are alone in this?

Does it matter?
You seemed to want to make a point. Where is it?
It is much more about the gender roles they are called to fulfil: things like whether they are addressed as 'Sir' or 'Madam' and which public restrooms they get to use.
how many women can use a urinal?
Don't men's restrooms have stalls over there?
not always.  But that's besides the point.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2014, 01:26:21 PM »
Let's not borrow other peoples travails. Into each life God allows the appropriate proportion of suffering. By hyperactively borrowing tribulation of all kinds all over the world, we moderns are destroying ourselves (and maligning His name).

I will go so far as to say if I am faced with a person struggling with gender (and there are a few in this town), then I will offer him attentive respect and friendship.

This is the best thing to do.

You're living up to your friendly avatar, Porter!

:) Ah Kelly your words are encouraging. (Sorry for the rabbit trail.)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2014, 01:28:59 PM »
Let's not borrow other peoples travails. Into each life God allows the appropriate proportion of suffering. By hyperactively borrowing tribulation of all kinds all over the world, we moderns are destroying ourselves (and maligning His name).

I will go so far as to say if I am faced with a person struggling with gender (and there are a few in this town), then I will offer him attentive respect and friendship.

Very good answer. This does seem to be one of those issues best left to your individual pastor. But I imagine we are discussing it because we are interested in the idea of gender roles and what their basis is, e.g. are they purely social constructs with no intrinsic validity, or are they grounded in biological nature, and how does that relate to the Church's teaching.

It remains the fact that such analysis, not of ourselves and our own inner experience, of our prayer for ourselves, can become destructive. The Western habit is to whirl the motor even where we can't engage the gears. It does make such an intoxicating sound ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2014, 01:30:53 PM »
Well one thing I know is that the Church is (in principle) opposed to medically unnecessary surgery and body modification, so surgically altering your body and pumping yourself full of testosterone or estrogen, as the case may be, is a very radical and potentially spiritually damaging act in response to one's subjective feelings about which gender one belongs to. If the problem is a mismatch between mind and body, why are we focusing the solution on "fixing" the body rather than fixing the mind? Or maybe there is nothing to fix and there are other ways to deal with the issue?

I suspect in former times the few individuals who found themselves in such a predicament would simply reject marriage and the requirement to fit into worldly gender roles and become monks or nuns, even saints.
Why would they become monks and nuns?

it is interesting that everyone who takes that as the "simple solution," denigrate marriage as the "easy way" compared to monasticism.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2014, 01:37:46 PM »
Well one thing I know is that the Church is (in principle) opposed to medically unnecessary surgery and body modification, so surgically altering your body and pumping yourself full of testosterone or estrogen, as the case may be, is a very radical and potentially spiritually damaging act in response to one's subjective feelings about which gender one belongs to. If the problem is a mismatch between mind and body, why are we focusing the solution on "fixing" the body rather than fixing the mind? Or maybe there is nothing to fix and there are other ways to deal with the issue?

I suspect in former times the few individuals who found themselves in such a predicament would simply reject marriage and the requirement to fit into worldly gender roles and become monks or nuns, even saints.
Why would they become monks and nuns?

it is interesting that everyone who takes that as the "simple solution," denigrate marriage as the "easy way" compared to monasticism.

I like this. :) I also liked the post you're responding to.

Someone born eccentrically-sexed should have been a loved part of the small communities of the past. I am not saying this was the case -- I am sure, though, contrary to our idea of history, it was sometimes the case. When you have always been known by and are probably even related to your neighbors, answers can come in a personal fashion, more likely to be satisfying to all (who are actually involved).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2014, 01:38:11 PM »
I know personally three intersex people. Two have Kleinfelter's syndrome (the commonest chromosomic disorder after Down), the third is a 'true hermaphrodite'. I don't care how rare their conditions are; they are people, not numbers.
The foolish notion of redefining the 98% doesn't make them more a person.

Who redefined what? I just can't buy into the '1/1000 is negligible' after meeting those people.
but you will try to sell that 7+ billion are negligible.

Not at all. Why drag into discussion of a problem those who don't have it?

The two Kleinfelters were assigned male at birth, and both identify as female as adults; I feel that, if sex has to be assigned by some human authority (doctors and/or parents), then another human authority (the child, once grown/aware) has every right to reassign it, if they feel it is wrong.
Who said there was any 'right' to assign, let alone 'reassign'?

Take that one up with the medical establishment.
I do, but it seems you are going to let it lay there.

Any suggestions? Insisting on 'male and female they were created' doesn't do much when about 1 in 5000 cases is 'both/neither'.

btw, they are "two persons with Kleinfelters" not "two Kleinfelters."  And the Y chromonsome they have does the assigning.  Hence the term "XXY males", or "47,XXY males" for the men who have the syndrome.

They also have two X's. They are called 'males' because their phenotype is usually towards the masculine end, though not exclusively. (One of my friends, you literally can't tell, voice and all. She'd make a fine contralto, or countertenor.)
They are males (no quotation marks) because they have the tell tale "Y."

XX not telltale enough for you?

It's not in the voice-Michael Jackson and Lauren Bacall showed that.

Jackson was a tenor who favoured his top register. Bacall was a chain-smoker back in the day and certainly didn't sound like that in middle school.

Through such contacts I've come to understand that so-called gender dysphoria often has little to do with sexual activity itself. Some sex-ambiguous people are asexual, others have no interest in surgery, knowing that, with or without it, their bodies will never look as they wish they did.
They are alone in this?

Does it matter?
You seemed to want to make a point. Where is it?

You first. How does feeling you're the wrong sex compare with wanting sharper cheekbones or thinner thighs?

It is much more about the gender roles they are called to fulfil: things like whether they are addressed as 'Sir' or 'Madam' and which public restrooms they get to use.
how many women can use a urinal?
Don't men's restrooms have stalls over there?
not always.  But that's besides the point.

Only if it's not an issue for you.

By the way, you never told us what we are to do with the true hermaphrodite case. Is it okay to say 'it'? Sell them to the sideshow, perhaps?
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2014, 01:38:47 PM »
Well one thing I know is that the Church is (in principle) opposed to medically unnecessary surgery and body modification, so surgically altering your body and pumping yourself full of testosterone or estrogen, as the case may be, is a very radical and potentially spiritually damaging act in response to one's subjective feelings about which gender one belongs to. If the problem is a mismatch between mind and body, why are we focusing the solution on "fixing" the body rather than fixing the mind? Or maybe there is nothing to fix and there are other ways to deal with the issue?

I suspect in former times the few individuals who found themselves in such a predicament would simply reject marriage and the requirement to fit into worldly gender roles and become monks or nuns, even saints.
Why would they become monks and nuns?

it is interesting that everyone who takes that as the "simple solution," denigrate marriage as the "easy way" compared to monasticism.


I don't think that's what Jonathan is doing in this case.

If a person's issue is one of a nature that one's body does not match up with how one feels, gender wise....and surgery to align the body with the mind/soul is not an option, participating in a marriage based on the body but not the mind and soul of that person, is a lie.

Jonathan was saying that perhaps in such cases in the past, when we knew less about the -whys- than we do now, retreating to somewhere that gender is less relevant in daily life, was of benefit.

Getting married and having relations with someone who your mind is not attracted to (because they are the same sex as your mind, but not your body)  is a larger evil.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2014, 01:40:05 PM »
Well one thing I know is that the Church is (in principle) opposed to medically unnecessary surgery and body modification, so surgically altering your body and pumping yourself full of testosterone or estrogen, as the case may be, is a very radical and potentially spiritually damaging act in response to one's subjective feelings about which gender one belongs to. If the problem is a mismatch between mind and body, why are we focusing the solution on "fixing" the body rather than fixing the mind? Or maybe there is nothing to fix and there are other ways to deal with the issue?

I suspect in former times the few individuals who found themselves in such a predicament would simply reject marriage and the requirement to fit into worldly gender roles and become monks or nuns, even saints.
Why would they become monks and nuns?

it is interesting that everyone who takes that as the "simple solution," denigrate marriage as the "easy way" compared to monasticism.

I wasn't saying marriage was easy. I was saying that marriage, more than monasticism, at least as traditionally construed by the Church, imposes more distinctive gender roles, not to mention the very basic requirement that in most instances (i.e. if it's not one of those rare celibate marriages that some saints contracted) you need to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. In monasticism, you are relatively freer of the gender roles imposed by the world, as monks and nuns live very similar lifestyles.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2014, 01:40:54 PM »
... I think a question I do find personal and helpful is What if anything can God's allowing hermaphrodites teach me, about myself, creation, our purpose, and Him?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2014, 02:17:47 PM »
I know personally three intersex people. Two have Kleinfelter's syndrome (the commonest chromosomic disorder after Down), the third is a 'true hermaphrodite'. I don't care how rare their conditions are; they are people, not numbers.
The foolish notion of redefining the 98% doesn't make them more a person.

Who redefined what? I just can't buy into the '1/1000 is negligible' after meeting those people.
but you will try to sell that 7+ billion are negligible.

Not at all. Why drag into discussion of a problem those who don't have it?
Why do you drag them into the problem?

The two Kleinfelters were assigned male at birth, and both identify as female as adults; I feel that, if sex has to be assigned by some human authority (doctors and/or parents), then another human authority (the child, once grown/aware) has every right to reassign it, if they feel it is wrong.
Who said there was any 'right' to assign, let alone 'reassign'?

Take that one up with the medical establishment.
I do, but it seems you are going to let it lay there.

Any suggestions? Insisting on 'male and female they were created' doesn't do much when about 1 in 5000 cases is 'both/neither'.
It does a lot-in fact 4999 at least (and maybe 5000).
btw, they are "two persons with Kleinfelters" not "two Kleinfelters."  And the Y chromonsome they have does the assigning.  Hence the term "XXY males", or "47,XXY males" for the men who have the syndrome.

They also have two X's. They are called 'males' because their phenotype is usually towards the masculine end, though not exclusively. (One of my friends, you literally can't tell, voice and all. She'd make a fine contralto, or countertenor.)
They are males (no quotation marks) because they have the tell tale "Y."
XX not telltale enough for you?
not for biology, why would it be for me?

I remember someone born with three testicles, and one born with only one.  It neither made the former more of a man, and the latter any lesser of one (as shown by his 3-5 children, I don't recall the number).
It's not in the voice-Michael Jackson and Lauren Bacall showed that.

Jackson was a tenor who favoured his top register. Bacall was a chain-smoker back in the day and certainly didn't sound like that in middle school.
I didn't know her i middle school. Did you?
Through such contacts I've come to understand that so-called gender dysphoria often has little to do with sexual activity itself. Some sex-ambiguous people are asexual, others have no interest in surgery, knowing that, with or without it, their bodies will never look as they wish they did.
They are alone in this?

Does it matter?
You seemed to want to make a point. Where is it?

You first. How does feeling you're the wrong sex compare with wanting sharper cheekbones or thinner thighs?
the one is delusional, the other just excessive perhaps.
It is much more about the gender roles they are called to fulfil: things like whether they are addressed as 'Sir' or 'Madam' and which public restrooms they get to use.
how many women can use a urinal?
Don't men's restrooms have stalls over there?
not always.  But that's besides the point.

Only if it's not an issue for you.
If can use one (and I've yet to see something saying XXY males can't), it's not an issue for you.

By the way, you never told us what we are to do with the true hermaphrodite case. Is it okay to say 'it'? Sell them to the sideshow, perhaps?
I didn't think it necessary, as the Church dealt with "the true hermaphrodite case" long ago.  The Fathers said "he." As for sideshows, in a world where marriage is redefined and one can "chose" his sex, why would they arose any curiosity?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2014, 02:34:01 PM »
... The Fathers said "he."

Too bad the dual had been lost by then. ;) Point of fact, though: in modern usage the grammatical masculine is no longer inclusive. At one time, for a related example, even in English, "man" was not the same as "wir" -- that time is past.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 02:34:34 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2014, 02:36:46 PM »
... The Fathers said "he."

Too bad the dual had been lost by then. ;) Point of fact, though: in modern usage the grammatical masculine is no longer inclusive.
yeah, the PC police would have you believe that.  I'm not switching to "BCE/CE" either.
At one time, for a related example, even in English, "man" was not the same as "wir" -- that time is past.
LOL.  Then past is present.

Btw, the dual wouldn't change anything, except being handier perhaps for siamese twins.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 02:37:34 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Arachne

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2014, 02:40:36 PM »
I know personally three intersex people. Two have Kleinfelter's syndrome (the commonest chromosomic disorder after Down), the third is a 'true hermaphrodite'. I don't care how rare their conditions are; they are people, not numbers.
The foolish notion of redefining the 98% doesn't make them more a person.

Who redefined what? I just can't buy into the '1/1000 is negligible' after meeting those people.
but you will try to sell that 7+ billion are negligible.

Not at all. Why drag into discussion of a problem those who don't have it?
Why do you drag them into the problem?

I don't. Most cisgendered people go through their lives without ever meeting a transgendered or intersex person, so they don't have to even consider the problem. It only becomes food for thought once someone gets involved with a gender-atypical person.

The two Kleinfelters were assigned male at birth, and both identify as female as adults; I feel that, if sex has to be assigned by some human authority (doctors and/or parents), then another human authority (the child, once grown/aware) has every right to reassign it, if they feel it is wrong.
Who said there was any 'right' to assign, let alone 'reassign'?

Take that one up with the medical establishment.
I do, but it seems you are going to let it lay there.

Any suggestions? Insisting on 'male and female they were created' doesn't do much when about 1 in 5000 cases is 'both/neither'.
It does a lot-in fact 4999 at least (and maybe 5000).

Don't squirm so much. 'Boy or girl?' is a straightforward question. 'Let me get back to you on that' is not a straightforward answer. One of the two must be decided, and it will be the doctors who will go, 'Well, it's a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but we're going to nip off the little bit of t'other and call it a [whatever]'. There were ambiguity cases long before genetic testing.

btw, they are "two persons with Kleinfelters" not "two Kleinfelters."  And the Y chromonsome they have does the assigning.  Hence the term "XXY males", or "47,XXY males" for the men who have the syndrome.

They also have two X's. They are called 'males' because their phenotype is usually towards the masculine end, though not exclusively. (One of my friends, you literally can't tell, voice and all. She'd make a fine contralto, or countertenor.)
They are males (no quotation marks) because they have the tell tale "Y."
XX not telltale enough for you?
not for biology, why would it be for me?

Because biology never changes its terminology.

I remember someone born with three testicles, and one born with only one.  It neither made the former more of a man, and the latter any lesser of one (as shown by his 3-5 children, I don't recall the number).

Unless either of them had any number of ovaries, that's irrelevant.

It's not in the voice-Michael Jackson and Lauren Bacall showed that.

Jackson was a tenor who favoured his top register. Bacall was a chain-smoker back in the day and certainly didn't sound like that in middle school.
I didn't know her i middle school. Did you?

Who knew disingenuous could sound so cute?

Through such contacts I've come to understand that so-called gender dysphoria often has little to do with sexual activity itself. Some sex-ambiguous people are asexual, others have no interest in surgery, knowing that, with or without it, their bodies will never look as they wish they did.
They are alone in this?

Does it matter?
You seemed to want to make a point. Where is it?

You first. How does feeling you're the wrong sex compare with wanting sharper cheekbones or thinner thighs?
the one is delusional, the other just excessive perhaps.

There are certainly plenty of delusional transgendered people. By no means all, though.

It is much more about the gender roles they are called to fulfil: things like whether they are addressed as 'Sir' or 'Madam' and which public restrooms they get to use.
how many women can use a urinal?
Don't men's restrooms have stalls over there?
not always.  But that's besides the point.

Only if it's not an issue for you.
If can use one (and I've yet to see something saying XXY males can't), it's not an issue for you.

Doing something just because you can isn't obligatory. My husband never uses urinals. That doesn't make him any less a man either.

By the way, you never told us what we are to do with the true hermaphrodite case. Is it okay to say 'it'? Sell them to the sideshow, perhaps?
I didn't think it necessary, as the Church dealt with "the true hermaphrodite case" long ago.  The Fathers said "he."

Did they? Can I have some quotes? The only thing I've found is Augustine saying (in City of God): 'As for the Androgyni, or Hermaphrodites, as they are called, though they are rare, yet from time to time there appears persons of sex so doubtful, that it remains uncertain from which sex they take their name; though it is customary to give them a masculine name, as the more worthy.' Rubbish.

As for sideshows, in a world where marriage is redefined and one can "chose" his sex, why would they arose any curiosity?

Information.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 05:12:53 PM by Arachne »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2014, 02:41:07 PM »
... The Fathers said "he."

Too bad the dual had been lost by then. ;) Point of fact, though: in modern usage the grammatical masculine is no longer inclusive.
yeah, the PC police would have you believe that.  I'm not switching to "BCE/CE" either.

"Usage" denotes how something is used by people. I am not asserting a rule but admitting the observable facts. Since, after all, speech is only as effective as its reception in the mind of the hearer.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 02:45:11 PM »
Quote from: Arachne
Did they? Can I have some quotes? The only thing I've found is Augustine saying (in City of God): 'As for the Androgyni, or Hermaphrodites, as they are called, though they are rare, yet from time to time there appears persons of sex so doubtful, that it remains uncertain from which sex they take their name; though it is customary to give them a masculine name, as the more worthy.' Rubbish.

If that were translated "It is the etiquette to refer to them as 'he,' as more respectful," would you object?
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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2014, 02:51:26 PM »
Quote from: Arachne
Did they? Can I have some quotes? The only thing I've found is Augustine saying (in City of God): 'As for the Androgyni, or Hermaphrodites, as they are called, though they are rare, yet from time to time there appears persons of sex so doubtful, that it remains uncertain from which sex they take their name; though it is customary to give them a masculine name, as the more worthy.' Rubbish.

If that were translated "It is the etiquette to refer to them as 'he,' as more respectful," would you object?

I'm pretty sure he's not talking about just pronouns here, but given names as well. 'Let's call the half-and-half a man, so it's not completely worthless.' I find it distasteful for both sexes.
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Offline Didyma

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2014, 02:56:25 PM »
I didn't think it necessary, as the Church dealt with "the true hermaphrodite case" long ago.  The Fathers said "he."

To whom are you referring?
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2014, 02:58:28 PM »
My parents told me to call people what they ask to be called.

If you're stuck for a way to talk to them, I find "Hello" or "Good afternoon" work really well.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2014, 03:01:50 PM »
I didn't think it necessary, as the Church dealt with "the true hermaphrodite case" long ago.  The Fathers said "he."

To whom are you referring?
The canons: they forbid hermaphrodites from bathing with women, for instance.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »
Quote from: Arachne
Did they? Can I have some quotes? The only thing I've found is Augustine saying (in City of God): 'As for the Androgyni, or Hermaphrodites, as they are called, though they are rare, yet from time to time there appears persons of sex so doubtful, that it remains uncertain from which sex they take their name; though it is customary to give them a masculine name, as the more worthy.' Rubbish.

If that were translated "It is the etiquette to refer to them as 'he,' as more respectful," would you object?

I'm pretty sure he's not talking about just pronouns here, but given names as well. 'Let's call the half-and-half a man, so it's not completely worthless.' I find it distasteful for both sexes.

Yes, I see he probably is talking about given names (the context would put that beyond doubt). However, that does not change the spirit of respect he is suggesting the custom intended. If we don't read other eras and cultures with sympathy, then we don't read what they really wrote and waste our time.
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Offline wainscottbl

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2014, 05:19:15 PM »
I'm glad we've been having this discussion as I have learned a lot. Not to bash the Catholics, but I really feel I could not have this discussion with Catholic outside of liberals who are not worth talking to. Many here who have admitted their ignorance would likely say they are conservatives. If they are not they are at least desirable to submit to the authority of the Orthodox Church, unlike Catholic liberals who love to go against the authority of their Church. The circle of Catholics I talk to are traditionalists of various types. They could simply not discuss this issue like this. It seems Orthodox are much more open to these complexities and it's been good to have the discussion. I've not really seen anything too annoyingly stupid here, for example. It's hard to explain but I think Orthodoxy is much more open to discussing this issue. Actually on that note Rome likely is, but traditionalists will call it heresy--the thing you have to love about people who say Orthodox are schismatics from Rome, yet have the authority of themselves to say Rome is in heresy. That's a whole other issue. But I think Orthodoxy is much more open to discuss this issue. Not because it is "liberal" but because it does not claim infallibility except in very, very rare cases--at ecumenical councils.

And if there is a council, maybe this issue will be addressed. I think it needs to be. It's  serious issue in the modern world. And not a simple issue.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2014, 05:28:20 PM »
...

And if there is a council, maybe this issue will be addressed. I think it needs to be. It's  serious issue in the modern world. And not a simple issue.

On the other hand, give this controversy a half-century and it may be almost forgotten.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2014, 05:48:03 PM »
To whorm it may concern

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2014, 07:30:43 PM »
Thread locked pending moderator review. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2014, 11:55:26 PM »
Thread re-opened. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Velsigne

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2014, 10:43:29 AM »
For me it's very simple-either you have the Y chromosome or you don't.
Gender is a whole another thing.

That's nonsense. Sex and gender are the same thing.

There other kinds of stories too. You've been called effeminate here for liking fine clothes.

That's more of a cultural thing.  In some areas of American culture, men feel that too much attention to apparel is weak, vain, and feminine (stereotyping of perceived 'female traits') and sometimes suspicious.  There are various sets and subsets on this theme.  Sometimes men dress simply because it's a waste of time and money to try and keep up with fashion.  In those milieus men wear standard clothing practical for their work and off-time, so it becomes like a standard uniform / conformity within that set.  Of course not all American men dress like loggers or mountain men. 

This is by no means the entirety of American culture.  There are also those who are very interested in apparel and general appearance, have manicures and pedicures, plastic surgery, hair implants, wigs, etc. 

To further complicate things, there is a class issue as well.  And it varies by region as well.  It's a big country.

The comment on Cyrillic's thread was probably not intended to imply that he is literally feminine or transgendered.   
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Offline Velsigne

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2014, 10:53:54 AM »
So I always thought transgenders more or less confused, mentally ill persons who thought, for whatever reason, they are actually the other sex. But what of this video. I think the priest makes a good argument but not sure if I am completely with him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEh55uM07E

I know Orthodoxy does not have address an issue like this as the Roman Catholic Church does but on abortion for example it's clear that it's wrong. Homosexuality the same. No if, and or but. You don't think sodomy is wrong, you are a heretic. But this transgender issue is complex and this priest did a good job arguing that. On the other hand I read a political article, which I will not post here, that was pretty much polemical. I asked my priest about this video and he is going to look at it he said and get back to me. In the meantime, some talk on the issue.

PS...I judged this issue theological rather than political. So let's keep it thus if we can, discussing it from a religious view. That's why I did not put it in the political forum.

I didn't watch the video, but may watch it later. 

The way to address someone is by addressing them as they wish to be addressed. 

Follow the greatest Commandment and the other ones on judging and it all becomes quite simple.

It is a difficult situation that people just didn't talk about years ago. 

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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2015, 04:24:28 PM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2015, 04:35:09 PM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2015, 04:44:54 PM »
University of Toronto tried those gender neutral restrooms to appease the transgendered, but someone abused the system.

http://toprightnews.com/university-changes-gender-neutral-restroom-policy-because-of-one-sick-reason/
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2015, 04:51:45 PM »
University of Toronto tried those gender neutral restrooms to appease the transgendered, but someone abused the system.

http://toprightnews.com/university-changes-gender-neutral-restroom-policy-because-of-one-sick-reason/
Hmmm, who would have ever thought of that happening?  ::)
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #80 on: October 08, 2015, 04:55:21 PM »
University of Toronto tried those gender neutral restrooms to appease the transgendered, but someone abused the system.

http://toprightnews.com/university-changes-gender-neutral-restroom-policy-because-of-one-sick-reason/
Hmmm, who would have ever thought of that happening?  ::)

Arizona State University has many gender-neutral restrooms yet I've heard of no negative incidents occurring (and ASU's main campus has roughly 50,000 students)
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #81 on: October 08, 2015, 05:02:23 PM »
University of Toronto tried those gender neutral restrooms to appease the transgendered, but someone abused the system.

http://toprightnews.com/university-changes-gender-neutral-restroom-policy-because-of-one-sick-reason/
Hmmm, who would have ever thought of that happening?  ::)

Arizona State University has many gender-neutral restrooms yet I've heard of no negative incidents occurring (and ASU's main campus has roughly 50,000 students)
It depends how they are implemented. In this situation, where people are showering and have the capability apparently to access the showering area from an area outside the shower, that is a receipe for abuse. If it is merely a single toilet room, then obviously there isn't much opportunity for abuse. In that respect, ever person's home is a "gender neutral bathroom".

In a country where most things are implemented on the basis of avoiding lawsuits, I suspect it will only take a few mishaps before colleges go scurrying back to their prior setups.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #82 on: October 08, 2015, 05:48:13 PM »
I have to second the opinions of Porter and others who say love and respect is the primary way of "addressing" those who are transgendered.  And I think a healthy dose of "mind your own business" is in order also.  Even if you personally think that having a sex change or taking on the dress and attitude of another gender (which does kind of smack in the face of gender as a social construct, though I don't think anybody has ever believed it is 100% either) the fact that somebody else believes differently and acts on that belief has nothing to do with you.  And we certainly should not punish people for it.  While I do have some issues with the bathroom/locker room situation when it comes to minors I could really care less as an adult.  Until the government starts forcing people to change genders, or get gay married or stop printing things in English or ban religious symbols on private property and the like I say live and let live.  Plank in the eye, God will judge, etc etc.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2015, 07:39:24 PM »

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2015, 07:48:46 PM »



I found about 15 cartoons to post, but I opted to go with this one:

« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 07:49:06 PM by JamesRottnek »
"Homosexuality has been a popular topic, but not Satanic trances."

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2015, 07:59:13 PM »

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #86 on: October 08, 2015, 11:27:08 PM »

Nature vs. Nurture is dualistic relic, and what this cartoon depends on for its force.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2015, 11:44:28 PM »
Oh dear, you just dropped a(n Archbishop) Lazar Puhalo link.  This cannot end well.

Ah, why's that? I did hear bad things about him elsewhere. Something about canonical doubts regarding him....I am guessing he is controversial.
That would be an understatement.  You can read a bit about him here.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Lazar_%28Puhalo%29_of_Ottawa

For most of his life, he has bounced around between various schismatic groups.  OCA then took pity on him and took him under their wing. He has caused a lot of controversy there and they have actually forbidden him from speaking about homosexuality which ignores. My personal opinion is that he does have some good things to say, but in order to find them, you have to wade through massive piles of crap.

Edited to adjust quote.  Mor.

+1

He's way too political for my tastes. And he says absurd things like, "abortion is wrong, but it's a waste of time trying to oppose it because it's the law of the land, and that won't change" (paraphrasing). He seems like an intelligent and sincere man. I'm friends with him on Facebook. And I've often pointed out to him that there is just as much evil committed by the political left as by the political right. But he seems to constantly rail against conservatism while carrying water for the liberals. I, of course, take equal aim at both sides.

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2015, 12:00:25 AM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.


There were some biblical scholars (I forget which ones) who believed that Adam was originally a hermaphrodite and that the word translated as "rib" does not, in fact, mean rib, but rather female sex organs. Thus, Eve was created by splitting Adam into male and female halves.

I find that interpretation doubtful as it appears to reflect the influence of Plato's Symphosium (Plato has Aristophanes telling a similar story). But maybe it's just a coincidence.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 12:03:15 AM by Minnesotan »
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2015, 12:54:49 AM »

There were some biblical scholars (I forget which ones) who believed that Adam was originally a hermaphrodite and that the word translated as "rib" does not, in fact, mean rib, but rather female sex organs. Thus, Eve was created by splitting Adam into male and female halves.

I find that interpretation doubtful as it appears to reflect the influence of Plato's Symphosium (Plato has Aristophanes telling a similar story). But maybe it's just a coincidence.

I think it's more common to interpret the Hebrew word translated rib in Genesis as 'side' than as 'female genital organs' (which is a gloss I've not heard before). Of course 'side' makes an even stronger parallel with Plato than 'rib' does.