Author Topic: Want to become Orthodox but I disagree with Orthodox teaching on contraception.  (Read 4117 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shlomlokh

  • 主哀れめよ!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,323
Just had my third child last week. Many congratulations have come in, with an equal amount of "you are crazy" and "three's a nightmare". You see, we already had our boy and girl, so we should be done in society's eyes.

These are crazy and stupid times, when a child is equally met with joy, bewilderment, and dire warnings. Reminds me of my ass of an uncle who told me my life was over when I got married.
God bless you and your family and grant you many years!

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Offline NikoStone

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • With Your divine light, O good One, illumine...
Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

Offline Sam G

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 688
  • Holy Martyr King Edward, pray to God for us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

From the Orthodox understanding, there are no Orthodox in communion with Rome.  To be Orthodox is to be out of communion with Rome.  The Church very much considers itself to be the only True Church.
Is it the "in" thing to say "I don't post here" but still post here?

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,143
Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

From the Orthodox understanding, there are no Orthodox in communion with Rome.  To be Orthodox is to be out of communion with Rome.  The Church very much considers itself to be the only True Church.
No, we are in communion with Rome.

And St. Peter, St. Clement, etc.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Sam G

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 688
  • Holy Martyr King Edward, pray to God for us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christianity
  • Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

From the Orthodox understanding, there are no Orthodox in communion with Rome.  To be Orthodox is to be out of communion with Rome.  The Church very much considers itself to be the only True Church.
No, we are in communion with Rome.

And St. Peter, St. Clement, etc.

I'm a bit confused of whose picture this is, and of course I was only speaking of since 1054.
Is it the "in" thing to say "I don't post here" but still post here?

Offline NikoStone

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • With Your divine light, O good One, illumine...
I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • Party per fess argent and gules; in chief a Latin cross bottony sable between two lozenges azure; in base a wheel, or.
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 293
I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
Apparently Rome is in his diocese. He who shall not be named loves to pull out that picture whenever "bishop of Rome" comes up  :P
Where even the last two or three are gathered in His name, He is there in their midst.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,746
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
Apparently Rome is in his diocese. He who shall not be named loves to pull out that picture whenever "bishop of Rome" comes up  :P

I like this Orthodox Bishop of Rome myself.  ;)



"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • Party per fess argent and gules; in chief a Latin cross bottony sable between two lozenges azure; in base a wheel, or.
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 293
And to get back on topic: I swear my wife is really Orthodox when it comes to divorce (there are things that destroy utterly a marriage) and contraception (NFP, other methods, what's the difference?) but she would never dream of going anywhere but a modern Roman Catholic Church because that's what she's used to.  ::)

I, on the other hand, think the Orthodox Church has everything the current version of the Roman Catholic Church really needs as far as discipline, but otherwise I still believe the Catholic Church has the correct doctrine when it comes to contraception and divorce (and the other things besides) ::)
Where even the last two or three are gathered in His name, He is there in their midst.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,143
I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
Apparently Rome is in his diocese. He who shall not be named loves to pull out that picture whenever "bishop of Rome" comes up  :P
Rome is his see.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,143
And to get back on topic: I swear my wife is really Orthodox when it comes to divorce (there are things that destroy utterly a marriage) and contraception (NFP, other methods, what's the difference?) but she would never dream of going anywhere but a modern Roman Catholic Church because that's what she's used to.  ::)

I, on the other hand, think the Orthodox Church has everything the current version of the Roman Catholic Church really needs as far as discipline, but otherwise I still believe the Catholic Church has the correct doctrine when it comes to contraception and divorce (and the other things besides) ::)
hypocrisy is a doctrine?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline wainscottbl

  • Aspie weirdo of the forum
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,533
Just want to pop in and say thanks for posting this OP. As a Roman Catholic, a trad Roman Catholic, this is the hardest for me. Divorce is not as bad as it might be for some as I almost married a girl that I would have either killed or tried with all my will to get an annulment--she had issues, let's say. Contraception on the other hand. So I am glad to get some discussion on this thanks to the concerned OP
True patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary, at one period, to that which it does at another, and the motive which impels them — the desire to do right — is precisely the same.

--Robert E. Lee

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,418
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,418
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Quinault

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,518
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,713
There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

And room for individual pastoral care to help people on their path to salvation.

ISTM, though I'm certainly no expert on Catholic doctrine, that both churches "allow" contraception and divorce. Catholics just call it by some other name: annulment, NFP.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 323
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me.
The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,869
  • Off to see the wizard!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 323
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me.
The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/



Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,869
  • Off to see the wizard!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/

They seem to have reached their conclusion, unlike Focus on the Family.

http://www.thesurvivaldoctor.com/2013/02/23/abortion-and-the-pill/

The NHS guide
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,143
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 323
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me.
The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/

They seem to have reached their conclusion, unlike Focus on the Family.

http://www.thesurvivaldoctor.com/2013/02/23/abortion-and-the-pill/

The NHS guide

"After two years of extended deliberation and prayer, [Focus on the Family's Physicians Resource Council] has not been able to reach a consensus as to the likelihood, or even the possibility, that these medications might contribute to the loss of human life after fertilization."

The idea that the pill could sometimes be abortifacient isn't totally unfounded. The sites I posted recognized the possibility, even if its not proven. That's why I would argue to err on the side of caution.

Offline Didyma

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 345
  • St. Lawrence of Canterbury, pray for us!
By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.
.- -. -.. / --. --- -.. / ... .... .- .-.. .-.. / .-- .. .--. . / .- .-- .- -.-- / .- .-.. .-.. / - . .- .-. ... / ..-. .-. --- -- / - .... . .. .-. / . -.-- . ...

Offline gueranger

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 323
  • Lord Jesus, have mercy on me.
By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.

Actually I was referring to the traditional birth control pill. I have often read (mostly Catholic, some protestant) pro-lifers argue that it can occasionally allow conception but prevent implantation.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,869
  • Off to see the wizard!
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.

The morning after pill doesn't do that (at least the one licenced in Europe; I'm told some of the ones available in the US are not as finely tuned).

Quote
The primary mechanism of action of levonorgestrel as a progestogen-only emergency contraceptive pill is, according to FIGO, to prevent fertilization by inhibition of ovulation. The International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO) has issued a statement that: "review of the evidence suggests that LNG [levonorgestreol] ECPs cannot prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. Language on implantation should not be included in LNG ECP product labeling." In June 2012, a New York Times editorial called on the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to remove from the label the unsupported suggestion that levonorgestrel emergency contraceptive pills inhibit implantation. In November 2013, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved a change to the label for HRA Pharma's NorLevo saying it cannot prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:04:50 AM by Arachne »
'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,418
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.

Actually I was referring to the traditional birth control pill. I have often read (mostly Catholic, some protestant) pro-lifers argue that it can occasionally allow conception but prevent implantation.
They are not correct, and are working off of outdated information.

And even if they were correct, their listed percentages for failed implantations are less than the percentages for normal sex, so by using the pill you would be stopping several ovum deaths a month.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:36:24 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,418
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
[img width=400]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Hestia_tapestry.jpg[/img
And?
Up for veneration for fertility worshippers.  ;)
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,143
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 11:51:05 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 39,143
By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.

Actually I was referring to the traditional birth control pill. I have often read (mostly Catholic, some protestant) pro-lifers argue that it can occasionally allow conception but prevent implantation.
They are not correct, and are working off of outdated information.

And even if they were correct, their listed percentages for failed implantations are less than the percentages for normal sex, so by using the pill you would be stopping several ovum deaths a month.
that is like sterilizing the poor to prevent starvation of children.

Care to provide 'up-dated' information?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

Amen. Too bad more people cannot find it within themselves to mind their own business when it comes to other people's family choices. I have three, btw, and hope you have as many or few as you want and can take care of.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Anna.T

  • Bond-slave to Christ Jesus
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,060
  • Κύριε, ἐλέησον!
There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

You know, I hope I have never offended anyone in person who has a large family. I love large families. :)  My great-grandma had 10 (though not all survived) but it made for some awesome family reunions. :)

What I have said though, and I never meant it in a snide way, was sometimes something to the effect of how BUSY they must make someone. That's pretty much all I can think of if I'm in the midst and they are running all directions. But I never think of them as anything but a blessing. :)
Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline Quinault

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,518
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
The truth is that in many ways I am not as busy with 6 as I was with 1. When you have 1 child, you are their ENTIRE WORLD. It is very tiring because they don't have anyone else to play with. Parents can, and should play with their children. I personally don't think that parents should be the sole playmate for a child. Our last 2 were born 14 months apart, one was a welcome surprise (#5) one was an absolute shock (#6) that took months during the pregnancy to really get happy about if I am honest. He is an awesome child, a tremendous blessing. We know he is exactly what our family needed. Our 5th child is very ill, and he can't get out to play like most other toddlers. He didn't really get to enjoy being a baby because he was so sick. He has a built in best friend and playmate. The interaction between our two youngest boys is awe inspiring and often brings me to tears. *We* didn't think that a 6th child was a good idea, we didn't want a 6th child. Indeed; we were doing everything we could (and our options are limited for a variety of medical reasons) to prevent having a 6th child; but we needed little Nash. He may not have been planned by us, but he was certainly part of a plan greater than ours.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 09:30:08 PM by Quinault »

Offline Quinault

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,518
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
That is a factor as well; for some people birth control options are very limited. Hormonal birth control would kill my liver. It is healthier for me to have more children than it is to take hormonal birth control.

As to the possible abortive factors of hormonal birth control; it *could* work in a secondary manner to make the cervical fluids inhospitable to sperm in addition to stopping ovulation. It *could* also work in a secondary manner where the lining of the uterus can't sustain implantation. But those secondary factors would be dependent upon the primary factor not working. The biggest argument against hormonal birth control is the long term effect upon a woman's body. If you take the pill to manage a medical condition, that is one thing. But if your body is otherwise fine, you should take a second look at the potential side effects of taking hormones.

Offline Anna.T

  • Bond-slave to Christ Jesus
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,060
  • Κύριε, ἐλέησον!
The truth is that in many ways I am not as busy with 6 as I was with 1. When you have 1 child, you are their ENTIRE WORLD. It is very tiring because they don't have anyone else to play with. Parents can, and should play with their children. I personally don't think that parents should be the sole playmate for a child. Our last 2 were born 14 months apart, one was a welcome surprise (#5) one was an absolute shock (#6) that took months during the pregnancy to really get happy about if I am honest. He is an awesome child, a tremendous blessing. We know he is exactly what our family needed. Our 5th child is very ill, and he can't get out to play like most other toddlers. He didn't really get to enjoy being a baby because he was so sick. He has a built in best friend and playmate. The interaction between our two youngest boys is awe inspiring and often brings me to tears. *We* didn't think that a 6th child was a good idea, we didn't want a 6th child. Indeed; we were doing everything we could (and our options are limited for a variety of medical reasons) to prevent having a 6th child; but we needed little Nash. He may not have been planned by us, but he was certainly part of a plan greater than ours.

I guess that can be true. I hadn't thought of it like that. I had one, and also homeschooled her for some years. It was exhausting!!! Her Dad was also in need of near 24/7 care, and I had volunteer positions as well, so looking back now, I can't think how I even did it. In some ways, maybe having at least 2 would have been easier.

What a wonderful story about your Nash! :)  Your family sounds blessed indeed! God surely knows what He is doing. :)
Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline Shlomlokh

  • 主哀れめよ!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,323
That is a factor as well; for some people birth control options are very limited. Hormonal birth control would kill my liver. It is healthier for me to have more children than it is to take hormonal birth control.

As to the possible abortive factors of hormonal birth control; it *could* work in a secondary manner to make the cervical fluids inhospitable to sperm in addition to stopping ovulation. It *could* also work in a secondary manner where the lining of the uterus can't sustain implantation. But those secondary factors would be dependent upon the primary factor not working. The biggest argument against hormonal birth control is the long term effect upon a woman's body. If you take the pill to manage a medical condition, that is one thing. But if your body is otherwise fine, you should take a second look at the potential side effects of taking hormones.
When my wife told me on St. Nicholas day that she was pregnant I was a little shocked and surprised, but I instantly I thought of you Quinault and how God has blessed you with your children and how he will help us through, too. It's an inspiration. Thank you for sharing it with us.

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Offline JGHunter

  • Settling dust
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 300
I assure you my reasons are not selfish, me and my wife would love nothing more than children, but it would not be fair on them, we are not in the position to have a family but you can bet your bottom dollar we are eager to have children. Personally, I want a whole clan, a swathe, a plethora... but then again I'm not the one giving birth  ;D

BTW, I was not speaking to you or to anyone else in particular. Except where the congratulations were offered. :)

I think I erased my own personal stuff from that post.

I would dearly love more children too, and my husband wants one. And if it were only the finances, we might try to work it out, though as things stand now, that makes it more than impossible. Health issues interfere too. My point is that I think there are reasons it ought to be allowed.

Selfishness I see mainly in young 2-income couples who enjoy making money and traveling and simply don't want children. And I have not met people like that in a long while. So I have no one in particular in mind. I did not mean to say anything against anyone, please forgive me if it sounded as if I did. :)

And I hope circumstances change so that you can have your quiver full soon. :) God willing. :)

Thanks! Same. In some circumstances, it would be selfish and bad parenting to have a child. Such as a married couple who are not... how can I put it, fully mentally capable of looking after a child, can just suffice looking after themselves as "independent" adults.
Lord Deliver Us.

I no longer use this profile for conversation, only news, PMs and prayer requests.

Offline Anna.T

  • Bond-slave to Christ Jesus
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,060
  • Κύριε, ἐλέησον!
I assure you my reasons are not selfish, me and my wife would love nothing more than children, but it would not be fair on them, we are not in the position to have a family but you can bet your bottom dollar we are eager to have children. Personally, I want a whole clan, a swathe, a plethora... but then again I'm not the one giving birth  ;D

BTW, I was not speaking to you or to anyone else in particular. Except where the congratulations were offered. :)

I think I erased my own personal stuff from that post.

I would dearly love more children too, and my husband wants one. And if it were only the finances, we might try to work it out, though as things stand now, that makes it more than impossible. Health issues interfere too. My point is that I think there are reasons it ought to be allowed.

Selfishness I see mainly in young 2-income couples who enjoy making money and traveling and simply don't want children. And I have not met people like that in a long while. So I have no one in particular in mind. I did not mean to say anything against anyone, please forgive me if it sounded as if I did. :)

And I hope circumstances change so that you can have your quiver full soon. :) God willing. :)

Thanks! Same. In some circumstances, it would be selfish and bad parenting to have a child. Such as a married couple who are not... how can I put it, fully mentally capable of looking after a child, can just suffice looking after themselves as "independent" adults.

I understand and agree.

Actually, my daughter heard the conversation where my husband discussed with me about wanting a child. She brought up what was in my own heart - our marriage is ... in the process of working things out. To be completely honest, having a child right now (if it were physically possible) could be a matter of selfishness. There is the chance that a child would magically "make everything better" but ... a very, very, VERY slim chance, and it is not a realistic way of looking at things. Likely there would be more stress and strife. A child ought to be brought into a home that is a secure, safe, loving environment that will give him or her the best spiritual start in life. Right now, as it stands, in all honesty I am not able to offer that. Things are slowly improving though, and I have great hopes that God will work everything out. :)
Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline Quinault

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,518
  • What about frogs? I like frogs!
That is a factor as well; for some people birth control options are very limited. Hormonal birth control would kill my liver. It is healthier for me to have more children than it is to take hormonal birth control.

As to the possible abortive factors of hormonal birth control; it *could* work in a secondary manner to make the cervical fluids inhospitable to sperm in addition to stopping ovulation. It *could* also work in a secondary manner where the lining of the uterus can't sustain implantation. But those secondary factors would be dependent upon the primary factor not working. The biggest argument against hormonal birth control is the long term effect upon a woman's body. If you take the pill to manage a medical condition, that is one thing. But if your body is otherwise fine, you should take a second look at the potential side effects of taking hormones.
When my wife told me on St. Nicholas day that she was pregnant I was a little shocked and surprised, but I instantly I thought of you Quinault and how God has blessed you with your children and how he will help us through, too. It's an inspiration. Thank you for sharing it with us.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thank you for your kind words. Any parent that isn't scared on at least some level at the arrival of each child is crazy. It is a tremendous responsibility to raise a child, but it is also a blessing beyond my ability to communicate.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
As far as I can tell, you will not be told that you cannot become Orthodox while holding the view that contraception is a sin. I sympathize with your reservations, OP.

Andrew and Alveus, congratulations.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline frjohnmorris

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,177
As far as I can tell, you will not be told that you cannot become Orthodox while holding the view that contraception is a sin. I sympathize with your reservations, OP.

Andrew and Alveus, congratulations.

You can become Orthodox while believing that contraception is a sin, as long as you understand that the Church has not spoken decisively on this issue and that your personal opinion is not the official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox who agree with you, especially those under heavy monastic influence, but there are also those who do not agree with you. Therefore, you can hold your personal views, but cannot judge others who do not agree with you.

Fr. John W. Morris.

Offline NikoStone

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • With Your divine light, O good One, illumine...
Thank you very much William and Fr. John for your thoughts on this topic. Recently I stopped by a ROCOR church to speak with a priest, he wasn't available at the moment (he was celebrating a  panikhída service), but I am hoping to get to speak to him sometime soon. I am looking forward to seeing where our Lord leads me in this. God bless all of you for your prayers during this time of discernment. I am counting on all of you praying for me!  :)