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Author Topic: Want to become Orthodox but I disagree with Orthodox teaching on contraception.  (Read 1966 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2014, 07:55:59 PM »

Just had my third child last week. Many congratulations have come in, with an equal amount of "you are crazy" and "three's a nightmare". You see, we already had our boy and girl, so we should be done in society's eyes.

These are crazy and stupid times, when a child is equally met with joy, bewilderment, and dire warnings. Reminds me of my ass of an uncle who told me my life was over when I got married.
God bless you and your family and grant you many years!

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« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2014, 08:01:22 PM »

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.
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« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2014, 08:10:38 PM »

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

From the Orthodox understanding, there are no Orthodox in communion with Rome.  To be Orthodox is to be out of communion with Rome.  The Church very much considers itself to be the only True Church.
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« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2014, 08:26:13 PM »

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

From the Orthodox understanding, there are no Orthodox in communion with Rome.  To be Orthodox is to be out of communion with Rome.  The Church very much considers itself to be the only True Church.
No, we are in communion with Rome.

And St. Peter, St. Clement, etc.
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« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2014, 08:31:50 PM »

Hey everyone! Thanks for all the replies. All of you have given me a lot to read through and consider. And, except for one instance, I thank all of you for not being snarky...  for, especially as the converts know, it is a difficult enough path to be following without someone giving an attitude.

Out of the most recent posts I especially wanted to thank Anna.T; thanks for your understanding and also speaking from the heart like you did!

I did notice a couple hints from a couple of posts that some of you noticed, perhaps, some legalism in my thinking. Thanks for pointing this out to me (whether willfully or by accident). To make a note on this point: I was a convert to Roman Catholicism and eventually went through 3 2/3 years of RC seminary intellectual training before discerning out for a number of reasons (one being that I began to feel a strong draw towards the Eastern Church). One of my big things as a Byzantine Catholic has been seeking to be an Orthodox in communion with Rome - obviously a tough situation, especially seeing how Eastern Catholics have been and continue to be treated within the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, though my intellectual patterns tend to be more Eastern than Western, I do notice the occasional 'lapse' into the legalistic mindset of the Latin Church. So again, thanks for pointing this out to me. I will look into this and see what is at work in my thought process regarding this issue; though (in all honesty) I still feel that I may always be uncomfortable with contraception (as well as NFP).

As a final point: I would like to  note that what Anna.T said  (i.e. " wanting to know how closely the Church holds to ideals when considering whether it is the true Church") was my main reason for asking the original question which I posted. Again thanks all to all of you.

From the Orthodox understanding, there are no Orthodox in communion with Rome.  To be Orthodox is to be out of communion with Rome.  The Church very much considers itself to be the only True Church.
No, we are in communion with Rome.

And St. Peter, St. Clement, etc.

I'm a bit confused of whose picture this is, and of course I was only speaking of since 1054.
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« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2014, 09:19:01 PM »

I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
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« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2014, 11:20:19 PM »

I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
Apparently Rome is in his diocese. He who shall not be named loves to pull out that picture whenever "bishop of Rome" comes up  Tongue
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« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2014, 11:27:47 PM »

I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
Apparently Rome is in his diocese. He who shall not be named loves to pull out that picture whenever "bishop of Rome" comes up  Tongue

I like this Orthodox Bishop of Rome myself.  Wink



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« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2014, 11:28:43 PM »

And to get back on topic: I swear my wife is really Orthodox when it comes to divorce (there are things that destroy utterly a marriage) and contraception (NFP, other methods, what's the difference?) but she would never dream of going anywhere but a modern Roman Catholic Church because that's what she's used to.  Roll Eyes

I, on the other hand, think the Orthodox Church has everything the current version of the Roman Catholic Church really needs as far as discipline, but otherwise I still believe the Catholic Church has the correct doctrine when it comes to contraception and divorce (and the other things besides) Roll Eyes
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« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2014, 12:17:39 AM »

I believe this picture is of His Grace PS Silouan; a Romanian Orthodox Bishop, who is currently in Italy; correct?
Apparently Rome is in his diocese. He who shall not be named loves to pull out that picture whenever "bishop of Rome" comes up  Tongue
Rome is his see.
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« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2014, 12:19:50 AM »

And to get back on topic: I swear my wife is really Orthodox when it comes to divorce (there are things that destroy utterly a marriage) and contraception (NFP, other methods, what's the difference?) but she would never dream of going anywhere but a modern Roman Catholic Church because that's what she's used to.  Roll Eyes

I, on the other hand, think the Orthodox Church has everything the current version of the Roman Catholic Church really needs as far as discipline, but otherwise I still believe the Catholic Church has the correct doctrine when it comes to contraception and divorce (and the other things besides) Roll Eyes
hypocrisy is a doctrine?
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« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2014, 02:10:46 AM »

Just want to pop in and say thanks for posting this OP. As a Roman Catholic, a trad Roman Catholic, this is the hardest for me. Divorce is not as bad as it might be for some as I almost married a girl that I would have either killed or tried with all my will to get an annulment--she had issues, let's say. Contraception on the other hand. So I am glad to get some discussion on this thanks to the concerned OP
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« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2014, 02:19:51 AM »

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« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2014, 02:21:14 AM »

The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2014, 03:22:40 AM »

There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2014, 07:38:20 AM »

There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

And room for individual pastoral care to help people on their path to salvation.

ISTM, though I'm certainly no expert on Catholic doctrine, that both churches "allow" contraception and divorce. Catholics just call it by some other name: annulment, NFP.
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2014, 08:32:16 AM »

The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2014, 08:46:12 AM »

The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 09:04:33 AM »

The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/


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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2014, 09:16:48 AM »

The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/

They seem to have reached their conclusion, unlike Focus on the Family.

http://www.thesurvivaldoctor.com/2013/02/23/abortion-and-the-pill/

The NHS guide
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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2014, 09:27:20 AM »


And?
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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2014, 09:28:11 AM »

The stance as I understand it is that any form of birth control that can cause an abortion is not allowed so the pill is not allowed
The pill does not cause abortions.

Does Orthodoxy not teach that life begins at conception? If its uncertain, then why not err on the side of caution?

You might want to research how the pill works.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_03howpillworks1.html

http://www.aaplog.org/position-and-papers/oral-contraceptive-controversy/birth-control-pill-abortifacient-and-contraceptive/

They seem to have reached their conclusion, unlike Focus on the Family.

http://www.thesurvivaldoctor.com/2013/02/23/abortion-and-the-pill/

The NHS guide

"After two years of extended deliberation and prayer, [Focus on the Family's Physicians Resource Council] has not been able to reach a consensus as to the likelihood, or even the possibility, that these medications might contribute to the loss of human life after fertilization."

The idea that the pill could sometimes be abortifacient isn't totally unfounded. The sites I posted recognized the possibility, even if its not proven. That's why I would argue to err on the side of caution.
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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2014, 09:59:26 AM »

By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.
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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2014, 10:28:09 AM »

By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.

Actually I was referring to the traditional birth control pill. I have often read (mostly Catholic, some protestant) pro-lifers argue that it can occasionally allow conception but prevent implantation.
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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2014, 11:03:07 AM »

By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.

The morning after pill doesn't do that (at least the one licenced in Europe; I'm told some of the ones available in the US are not as finely tuned).

Quote
The primary mechanism of action of levonorgestrel as a progestogen-only emergency contraceptive pill is, according to FIGO, to prevent fertilization by inhibition of ovulation. The International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO) has issued a statement that: "review of the evidence suggests that LNG [levonorgestreol] ECPs cannot prevent implantation of a fertilized egg. Language on implantation should not be included in LNG ECP product labeling." In June 2012, a New York Times editorial called on the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to remove from the label the unsupported suggestion that levonorgestrel emergency contraceptive pills inhibit implantation. In November 2013, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) approved a change to the label for HRA Pharma's NorLevo saying it cannot prevent implantation of a fertilized egg.
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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2014, 11:34:56 AM »

By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.

Actually I was referring to the traditional birth control pill. I have often read (mostly Catholic, some protestant) pro-lifers argue that it can occasionally allow conception but prevent implantation.
They are not correct, and are working off of outdated information.

And even if they were correct, their listed percentages for failed implantations are less than the percentages for normal sex, so by using the pill you would be stopping several ovum deaths a month.
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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2014, 11:37:57 AM »

[img width=400]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Hestia_tapestry.jpg[/img
And?
Up for veneration for fertility worshippers.  Wink
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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2014, 11:45:55 AM »


that's better.
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« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2014, 11:52:42 AM »

By birth control pill, do you mean the "morning after" pill?  That's the one that prevents implantation.  Usually, when people refer to birth control pills, they're talking about the pills that prevent eggs from being released to be fertilized in the first place.  A lot of women also use those pills to help with acne or with unhealthily strong or frequent blood flows.

Actually I was referring to the traditional birth control pill. I have often read (mostly Catholic, some protestant) pro-lifers argue that it can occasionally allow conception but prevent implantation.
They are not correct, and are working off of outdated information.

And even if they were correct, their listed percentages for failed implantations are less than the percentages for normal sex, so by using the pill you would be stopping several ovum deaths a month.
that is like sterilizing the poor to prevent starvation of children.

Care to provide 'up-dated' information?
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« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2014, 05:37:04 PM »

There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

Amen. Too bad more people cannot find it within themselves to mind their own business when it comes to other people's family choices. I have three, btw, and hope you have as many or few as you want and can take care of.
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« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2014, 05:40:37 PM »

There are some of this forum that think I have too many children (we have 6). Some snide remarks about having lots of kids have cropped up, and it has been somewhat irritating. The beauty of the Orthodox view is that there is room for individualization.

You know, I hope I have never offended anyone in person who has a large family. I love large families. Smiley  My great-grandma had 10 (though not all survived) but it made for some awesome family reunions. Smiley

What I have said though, and I never meant it in a snide way, was sometimes something to the effect of how BUSY they must make someone. That's pretty much all I can think of if I'm in the midst and they are running all directions. But I never think of them as anything but a blessing. Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2014, 09:24:08 PM »

The truth is that in many ways I am not as busy with 6 as I was with 1. When you have 1 child, you are their ENTIRE WORLD. It is very tiring because they don't have anyone else to play with. Parents can, and should play with their children. I personally don't think that parents should be the sole playmate for a child. Our last 2 were born 14 months apart, one was a welcome surprise (#5) one was an absolute shock (#6) that took months during the pregnancy to really get happy about if I am honest. He is an awesome child, a tremendous blessing. We know he is exactly what our family needed. Our 5th child is very ill, and he can't get out to play like most other toddlers. He didn't really get to enjoy being a baby because he was so sick. He has a built in best friend and playmate. The interaction between our two youngest boys is awe inspiring and often brings me to tears. *We* didn't think that a 6th child was a good idea, we didn't want a 6th child. Indeed; we were doing everything we could (and our options are limited for a variety of medical reasons) to prevent having a 6th child; but we needed little Nash. He may not have been planned by us, but he was certainly part of a plan greater than ours.
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« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2014, 09:29:32 PM »

That is a factor as well; for some people birth control options are very limited. Hormonal birth control would kill my liver. It is healthier for me to have more children than it is to take hormonal birth control.

As to the possible abortive factors of hormonal birth control; it *could* work in a secondary manner to make the cervical fluids inhospitable to sperm in addition to stopping ovulation. It *could* also work in a secondary manner where the lining of the uterus can't sustain implantation. But those secondary factors would be dependent upon the primary factor not working. The biggest argument against hormonal birth control is the long term effect upon a woman's body. If you take the pill to manage a medical condition, that is one thing. But if your body is otherwise fine, you should take a second look at the potential side effects of taking hormones.
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« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2014, 10:54:07 PM »

The truth is that in many ways I am not as busy with 6 as I was with 1. When you have 1 child, you are their ENTIRE WORLD. It is very tiring because they don't have anyone else to play with. Parents can, and should play with their children. I personally don't think that parents should be the sole playmate for a child. Our last 2 were born 14 months apart, one was a welcome surprise (#5) one was an absolute shock (#6) that took months during the pregnancy to really get happy about if I am honest. He is an awesome child, a tremendous blessing. We know he is exactly what our family needed. Our 5th child is very ill, and he can't get out to play like most other toddlers. He didn't really get to enjoy being a baby because he was so sick. He has a built in best friend and playmate. The interaction between our two youngest boys is awe inspiring and often brings me to tears. *We* didn't think that a 6th child was a good idea, we didn't want a 6th child. Indeed; we were doing everything we could (and our options are limited for a variety of medical reasons) to prevent having a 6th child; but we needed little Nash. He may not have been planned by us, but he was certainly part of a plan greater than ours.

I guess that can be true. I hadn't thought of it like that. I had one, and also homeschooled her for some years. It was exhausting!!! Her Dad was also in need of near 24/7 care, and I had volunteer positions as well, so looking back now, I can't think how I even did it. In some ways, maybe having at least 2 would have been easier.

What a wonderful story about your Nash! Smiley  Your family sounds blessed indeed! God surely knows what He is doing. Smiley
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« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2014, 11:52:11 AM »

That is a factor as well; for some people birth control options are very limited. Hormonal birth control would kill my liver. It is healthier for me to have more children than it is to take hormonal birth control.

As to the possible abortive factors of hormonal birth control; it *could* work in a secondary manner to make the cervical fluids inhospitable to sperm in addition to stopping ovulation. It *could* also work in a secondary manner where the lining of the uterus can't sustain implantation. But those secondary factors would be dependent upon the primary factor not working. The biggest argument against hormonal birth control is the long term effect upon a woman's body. If you take the pill to manage a medical condition, that is one thing. But if your body is otherwise fine, you should take a second look at the potential side effects of taking hormones.
When my wife told me on St. Nicholas day that she was pregnant I was a little shocked and surprised, but I instantly I thought of you Quinault and how God has blessed you with your children and how he will help us through, too. It's an inspiration. Thank you for sharing it with us.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2014, 01:56:12 PM »

I assure you my reasons are not selfish, me and my wife would love nothing more than children, but it would not be fair on them, we are not in the position to have a family but you can bet your bottom dollar we are eager to have children. Personally, I want a whole clan, a swathe, a plethora... but then again I'm not the one giving birth  Grin

BTW, I was not speaking to you or to anyone else in particular. Except where the congratulations were offered. Smiley

I think I erased my own personal stuff from that post.

I would dearly love more children too, and my husband wants one. And if it were only the finances, we might try to work it out, though as things stand now, that makes it more than impossible. Health issues interfere too. My point is that I think there are reasons it ought to be allowed.

Selfishness I see mainly in young 2-income couples who enjoy making money and traveling and simply don't want children. And I have not met people like that in a long while. So I have no one in particular in mind. I did not mean to say anything against anyone, please forgive me if it sounded as if I did. Smiley

And I hope circumstances change so that you can have your quiver full soon. Smiley God willing. Smiley

Thanks! Same. In some circumstances, it would be selfish and bad parenting to have a child. Such as a married couple who are not... how can I put it, fully mentally capable of looking after a child, can just suffice looking after themselves as "independent" adults.
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« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2014, 03:04:44 PM »

I assure you my reasons are not selfish, me and my wife would love nothing more than children, but it would not be fair on them, we are not in the position to have a family but you can bet your bottom dollar we are eager to have children. Personally, I want a whole clan, a swathe, a plethora... but then again I'm not the one giving birth  Grin

BTW, I was not speaking to you or to anyone else in particular. Except where the congratulations were offered. Smiley

I think I erased my own personal stuff from that post.

I would dearly love more children too, and my husband wants one. And if it were only the finances, we might try to work it out, though as things stand now, that makes it more than impossible. Health issues interfere too. My point is that I think there are reasons it ought to be allowed.

Selfishness I see mainly in young 2-income couples who enjoy making money and traveling and simply don't want children. And I have not met people like that in a long while. So I have no one in particular in mind. I did not mean to say anything against anyone, please forgive me if it sounded as if I did. Smiley

And I hope circumstances change so that you can have your quiver full soon. Smiley God willing. Smiley

Thanks! Same. In some circumstances, it would be selfish and bad parenting to have a child. Such as a married couple who are not... how can I put it, fully mentally capable of looking after a child, can just suffice looking after themselves as "independent" adults.

I understand and agree.

Actually, my daughter heard the conversation where my husband discussed with me about wanting a child. She brought up what was in my own heart - our marriage is ... in the process of working things out. To be completely honest, having a child right now (if it were physically possible) could be a matter of selfishness. There is the chance that a child would magically "make everything better" but ... a very, very, VERY slim chance, and it is not a realistic way of looking at things. Likely there would be more stress and strife. A child ought to be brought into a home that is a secure, safe, loving environment that will give him or her the best spiritual start in life. Right now, as it stands, in all honesty I am not able to offer that. Things are slowly improving though, and I have great hopes that God will work everything out. Smiley
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« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2014, 03:58:47 PM »

That is a factor as well; for some people birth control options are very limited. Hormonal birth control would kill my liver. It is healthier for me to have more children than it is to take hormonal birth control.

As to the possible abortive factors of hormonal birth control; it *could* work in a secondary manner to make the cervical fluids inhospitable to sperm in addition to stopping ovulation. It *could* also work in a secondary manner where the lining of the uterus can't sustain implantation. But those secondary factors would be dependent upon the primary factor not working. The biggest argument against hormonal birth control is the long term effect upon a woman's body. If you take the pill to manage a medical condition, that is one thing. But if your body is otherwise fine, you should take a second look at the potential side effects of taking hormones.
When my wife told me on St. Nicholas day that she was pregnant I was a little shocked and surprised, but I instantly I thought of you Quinault and how God has blessed you with your children and how he will help us through, too. It's an inspiration. Thank you for sharing it with us.

In Christ,
Andrew

Thank you for your kind words. Any parent that isn't scared on at least some level at the arrival of each child is crazy. It is a tremendous responsibility to raise a child, but it is also a blessing beyond my ability to communicate.
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« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2014, 03:11:33 PM »

As far as I can tell, you will not be told that you cannot become Orthodox while holding the view that contraception is a sin. I sympathize with your reservations, OP.

Andrew and Alveus, congratulations.
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« Reply #84 on: June 16, 2014, 03:52:34 PM »

As far as I can tell, you will not be told that you cannot become Orthodox while holding the view that contraception is a sin. I sympathize with your reservations, OP.

Andrew and Alveus, congratulations.

You can become Orthodox while believing that contraception is a sin, as long as you understand that the Church has not spoken decisively on this issue and that your personal opinion is not the official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church. There are Orthodox who agree with you, especially those under heavy monastic influence, but there are also those who do not agree with you. Therefore, you can hold your personal views, but cannot judge others who do not agree with you.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #85 on: June 16, 2014, 07:11:13 PM »

Thank you very much William and Fr. John for your thoughts on this topic. Recently I stopped by a ROCOR church to speak with a priest, he wasn't available at the moment (he was celebrating a  panikhída service), but I am hoping to get to speak to him sometime soon. I am looking forward to seeing where our Lord leads me in this. God bless all of you for your prayers during this time of discernment. I am counting on all of you praying for me!  Smiley
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