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Peter J
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« on: June 01, 2014, 07:11:07 AM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 11:49:48 AM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?

It's not just the disputes over property, though in most eparchies the trials are still ongoing. Things will never be the way they once were (before the arrival of Communism) between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics here. The latter are very proud and claim they were the only ones to endure persecution under the former regime, whereas the Orthodox plotted with the authorities to strip them of their property and steal their flock.

With rather few exceptions, they heavily modernized/latinized their liturgy (priests facing the people at the consecration, no iconostases in newly built churches, guitar accompanied songs instead of chant, Matins routinely omitted, etc.). They strive to be as different from the Orthodox as possible, both in the language they use and in their spirituality.

Here's the website of one of their churches in my town, where our Metropolitan infamously communed with them. The priest there is a big fan of Medjugorje, pro-life activism and the Charismatic movement.     
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 12:18:48 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2014, 01:32:30 PM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?

It's not just the disputes over property, though in most eparchies the trials are still ongoing. Things will never be the way they once were (before the arrival of Communism) between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics here. The latter are very proud and claim they were the only ones to endure persecution under the former regime, whereas the Orthodox plotted with the authorities to strip them of their property and steal their flock.

With rather few exceptions, they heavily modernized/latinized their liturgy (priests facing the people at the consecration, no iconostases in newly built churches, guitar accompanied songs instead of chant, Matins routinely omitted, etc.). They strive to be as different from the Orthodox as possible, both in the language they use and in their spirituality.

Here's the website of one of their churches in my town, where our Metropolitan infamously communed with them. The priest there is a big fan of Medjugorje, pro-life activism and the Charismatic movement.      

Trying to define "Eastern" Catholicism is perplexing. If they want to distinguish themselves in Romania so fervently from us, just "do it" honestly and become RC.

 If they did this in Transcarpathia or Slovakia, Greek Catholic people there would rebell. I don't get it, except that it proves that the big bad Vatican (which "outlawed" such abominations post Vatican 2 )has no real control at all. Clown masses next anyone? Yikes.
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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2014, 01:59:56 PM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?

It's not just the disputes over property, though in most eparchies the trials are still ongoing. Things will never be the way they once were (before the arrival of Communism) between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics here. The latter are very proud and claim they were the only ones to endure persecution under the former regime, whereas the Orthodox plotted with the authorities to strip them of their property and steal their flock.

With rather few exceptions, they heavily modernized/latinized their liturgy (priests facing the people at the consecration, no iconostases in newly built churches, guitar accompanied songs instead of chant, Matins routinely omitted, etc.). They strive to be as different from the Orthodox as possible, both in the language they use and in their spirituality.

Here's the website of one of their churches in my town, where our Metropolitan infamously communed with them. The priest there is a big fan of Medjugorje, pro-life activism and the Charismatic movement.     

Lord have mercy. The Romanian Greek Catholics sound more like rebellious teenagers who want to distance themselves further from their Orthodox roots and be more acceptable to Rome. This is bound to happen.
Vatican II actually compelled the Greek Catholics around the globe to return to their roots. In the USA, the Melkites and the Ruthenians (Byzantine Catholics) did away with a lot of latinizations. Why are the Romanians allowed to keep their latinizations and become even more western?
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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2014, 02:03:48 PM »

If they did this in Transcarpathia or Slovakia, Greek Catholic people there would rebell. I don't get it, except that it proves that the big bad Vatican (which "outlawed" such abominations post Vatican 2 )has no real control at all. Clown masses next anyone? Yikes.

The younger generation of Greek Catholics (born after the 50's) grew up with the Roman Novus Ordo Mass and clandestine GC Divine Liturgies, celebrated by older priests in private homes - that is, in improper liturgical settings. The only way they could stay Catholic was attending Latin rite churches, which is what they did. 

Some ten years ago, my devout Greek Catholic friends had all been through Confirmation and first Communion in the Latin rite, attended mostly Roman masses (it took less time and seemed more convenient, for some reason) and completely ignored the meaning of words like Triodion, Menaion or Compline. They prayed the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross, not Akathists or the Jesus prayer, and considered Orthodox practices like venerating the relics of the Saints/icons, fasting, prostrations or long services to be obsolete and superstitious. 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:11:32 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2014, 02:36:09 PM »

Why are the Romanians allowed to keep their latinizations and become even more western?

Romanians have been striving to become "more Western" for the last couple of centuries. The eminent scholars of the so-called "Transylvanian School", who also happened to be Greek Catholic, advocated a return to our Latin roots and tried to "purify" the language of most non-Latin words (Romanian Greek Catholics would say "spirit", not "duh", for instance). This later became the national ideology of modern unified Romania. We're supposed to strive for European integration and do away with our Balcanic, Slavic/Byzantine inheritance, which the "founding fathers" of modern Romania saw as retrograde and shameful.   
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2014, 02:53:57 PM »

Why are the Romanians allowed to keep their latinizations and become even more western?

Romanians have been striving to become "more Western" for the last couple of centuries. The eminent scholars of the so-called "Transylvanian School", who also happened to be Greek Catholic, advocated a return to our Latin roots and tried to "purify" the language of most non-Latin words (Romanian Greek Catholics would say "spirit", not "duh", for instance). This later became the national ideology of modern unified Romania. We're supposed to strive for European integration and do away with our Balcanic, Slavic/Byzantine inheritance, which the "founding fathers" of modern Romania saw as retrograde and shameful.   

Sounds pretty much like Finland. This is basically why we are part of EP instead of MP.
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2014, 03:22:08 PM »

Sounds pretty much like Finland. This is basically why we are part of EP instead of MP.
Do you remember the MP was under the commies?
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2014, 03:27:37 PM »

Sounds pretty much like Finland. This is basically why we are part of EP instead of MP.
Do you remember the MP was under the commies?

It was, but the original idea was to switch back to MP once the situation calmed. We never did despite the fact that situation calmed.
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2014, 03:29:14 PM »

A lot of former GCC churches are now OC. People in Transylvania country side still have GCC icons in their homes.
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2014, 03:30:58 PM »

It was, but the original idea was to switch back to MP once the situation calmed. We never did despite the fact that situation calmed.

I guess that's subjective... details would need to be discussed in the politics forum. However, I dont think Finland wille ver return to the MP.
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2014, 03:38:01 PM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?

It's not just the disputes over property, though in most eparchies the trials are still ongoing. Things will never be the way they once were (before the arrival of Communism) between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics here. The latter are very proud and claim they were the only ones to endure persecution under the former regime, whereas the Orthodox plotted with the authorities to strip them of their property and steal their flock.

With rather few exceptions, they heavily modernized/latinized their liturgy (priests facing the people at the consecration, no iconostases in newly built churches, guitar accompanied songs instead of chant, Matins routinely omitted, etc.). They strive to be as different from the Orthodox as possible, both in the language they use and in their spirituality.

Here's the website of one of their churches in my town, where our Metropolitan infamously communed with them. The priest there is a big fan of Medjugorje, pro-life activism and the Charismatic movement.     

Lord have mercy. The Romanian Greek Catholics sound more like rebellious teenagers who want to distance themselves further from their Orthodox roots and be more acceptable to Rome. This is bound to happen.
Vatican II actually compelled the Greek Catholics around the globe to return to their roots. In the USA, the Melkites and the Ruthenians (Byzantine Catholics) did away with a lot of latinizations. Why are the Romanians allowed to keep their latinizations and become even more western?


Romania is a Latin country we are more than just dull slavic/balkanik people.
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2014, 03:47:29 PM »

Romania is a Latin country we are more than just dull slavic/balkanik people.

Talk about clichés...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2014, 03:50:44 PM »

If they did this in Transcarpathia or Slovakia, Greek Catholic people there would rebell. I don't get it, except that it proves that the big bad Vatican (which "outlawed" such abominations post Vatican 2 )has no real control at all. Clown masses next anyone? Yikes.

The younger generation of Greek Catholics (born after the 50's) grew up with the Roman Novus Ordo Mass and clandestine GC Divine Liturgies, celebrated by older priests in private homes - that is, in improper liturgical settings. The only way they could stay Catholic was attending Latin rite churches, which is what they did.  

Some ten years ago, my devout Greek Catholic friends had all been through Confirmation and first Communion in the Latin rite, attended mostly Roman masses (it took less time and seemed more convenient, for some reason) and completely ignored the meaning of words like Triodion, Menaion or Compline. They prayed the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross, not Akathists or the Jesus prayer, and considered Orthodox practices like venerating the relics of the Saints/icons, fasting, prostrations or long services to be obsolete and superstitious.  

What was the liturgy like of the older generation of Greek Catholic before the 50's (I have my grandparents in mind when I ask this)?
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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2014, 03:53:17 PM »

Romania is a Latin country we are more than just dull slavic/balkanik people.

Talk about clichés...  Roll Eyes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRHKkYrXSjM
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2014, 04:00:30 PM »

What was the liturgy like of the older generation of Greek Catholic before the 50's (I have my grandparents in mind when I ask this)?

I was born much later, but I imagine it was pretty close to the contemporary Transylvanian Orthodox usage, except for their linguistic idiosyncracies. I guess they had already imported Latin devotions like the Rosary (which they prayed with "Nascatoare de Dumnezeu, Fecioara"/Theotoke parthene instead of "Hail Mary"), the Sacred Heart and the Stations of the Cross, which were depicted in their churches.   
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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2014, 04:06:02 PM »

What was the liturgy like of the older generation of Greek Catholic before the 50's (I have my grandparents in mind when I ask this)?

I was born much later, but I imagine it was pretty close to the contemporary Transylvanian Orthodox usage, except for their linguistic idiosyncracies. I guess they had already imported Latin devotions like the Rosary (which they prayed with "Nascatoare de Dumnezeu, Fecioara"/Theotoke parthene instead of "Hail Mary"), the Sacred Heart and the Stations of the Cross, which were depicted in their churches.   

Roman Novus Order mass or... ?
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2014, 04:18:37 PM »

What was the liturgy like of the older generation of Greek Catholic before the 50's (I have my grandparents in mind when I ask this)?

I was born much later, but I imagine it was pretty close to the contemporary Transylvanian Orthodox usage, except for their linguistic idiosyncracies. I guess they had already imported Latin devotions like the Rosary (which they prayed with "Nascatoare de Dumnezeu, Fecioara"/Theotoke parthene instead of "Hail Mary"), the Sacred Heart and the Stations of the Cross, which were depicted in their churches.   

Roman Novus Order mass or... ?

No, sorry: the Roman Novus Ordo Mass is what Greek Catholics of my age (~30-40) grew up with, since they weren't able to attend Greek Catholic churches under Communism. Latin rite Catholics in Romania switched to the Novus Ordo pretty late (late 70's/80's), because liturgical books couldn't be smuggled inside the country and translated/published very easily - the Communist authorities saw the Roman Mass in Romanian as an attempt of the Vatican to proselytize Romanians. That's why the pre-Vatican II Latin liturgy lasted longer behind the Iron Curtain than it did elsewhere. 
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Peter J
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2014, 04:23:32 PM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?

It's not just the disputes over property, though in most eparchies the trials are still ongoing.

 Embarrassed That's really sad.  Embarrassed

Things will never be the way they once were (before the arrival of Communism) between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics here. The latter are very proud and claim they were the only ones to endure persecution under the former regime, whereas the Orthodox plotted with the authorities to strip them of their property and steal their flock.

With rather few exceptions, they heavily modernized/latinized their liturgy (priests facing the people at the consecration, no iconostases in newly built churches, guitar accompanied songs instead of chant, Matins routinely omitted, etc.). They strive to be as different from the Orthodox as possible, both in the language they use and in their spirituality.

Here's the website of one of their churches in my town, where our Metropolitan infamously communed with them. The priest there is a big fan of Medjugorje, pro-life activism and the Charismatic movement.      

Thanks for the link. I can't say I saw anything triumphalistic or anti-Orthodox on that page, but I only spent a few minutes looking at it so it's possible I missed something.
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2014, 04:34:55 PM »

Thanks for the link. I can't say I saw anything triumphalistic or anti-Orthodox on that page, but I only spent a few minutes looking at it so it's possible I missed something.

Oh, no! Romanian Greek Catholics have adopted the ecumenically-correct language. They refer to us as 'our Orthodox brothers', but the condescending if not hostile attitude is hardly dissimulated when you speak to them in person. 

That link was meant as an illustration of how far removed an average Romanian Greek Catholic parish is from the Byzantine/Eastern ethos/spirituality. They're all about Medjugorje, Fatima, the Sacred Heart, Western Saints, the Rosary, Novenas and Eucharistic Adoration...
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2014, 05:01:31 PM »

What was the liturgy like of the older generation of Greek Catholic before the 50's (I have my grandparents in mind when I ask this)?

I was born much later, but I imagine it was pretty close to the contemporary Transylvanian Orthodox usage, except for their linguistic idiosyncracies. I guess they had already imported Latin devotions like the Rosary (which they prayed with "Nascatoare de Dumnezeu, Fecioara"/Theotoke parthene instead of "Hail Mary"), the Sacred Heart and the Stations of the Cross, which were depicted in their churches.   

Roman Novus Order mass or... ?

No, sorry: the Roman Novus Ordo Mass is what Greek Catholics of my age (~30-40) grew up with, since they weren't able to attend Greek Catholic churches under Communism. Latin rite Catholics in Romania switched to the Novus Ordo pretty late (late 70's/80's), because liturgical books couldn't be smuggled inside the country and translated/published very easily - the Communist authorities saw the Roman Mass in Romanian as an attempt of the Vatican to proselytize Romanians. That's why the pre-Vatican II Latin liturgy lasted longer behind the Iron Curtain than it did elsewhere. 

So what type of Liturgy was there used before the 50's in the GCC's?
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2014, 05:19:55 PM »

So what type of Liturgy was there used before the 50's in the GCC's?

If you mean the liturgical texts, it was and is the same liturgy as the Orthodox use, albeit in an artificially latinized Romanian language and with added commemorations of the Pope.

If you take into account liturgical art, church architecture, para-liturgical devotions, spirituality, clerical dress & beard/lack thereof, then you begin to grasp the differences...

I don't know of any pre-1950 recordings of the GC liturgy. IIRC Radio Europa Libera used to broadcast the Greek Catholic DL on Sundays from abroad. But that was during the last years of Communism.

You're better off asking your own granny (assuming she was GC)... I only spoke with an octogenarian Jesuite brother once in Iasi who was Greek Catholic. I asked him whether he didn't miss the Greek Catholic liturgy, since the Jesuites there served in the Roman rite, and he said he sometimes missed it, but that he had grown used to the new Roman Mass. He then gave me a card with a devotion to the Sacred Heart in Italian as a souvenir...   
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2014, 05:31:09 PM »

So what type of Liturgy was there used before the 50's in the GCC's?

If you mean the liturgical texts, it was and is the same liturgy as the Orthodox use, albeit in an artificially latinized Romanian language and with added commemorations of the Pope.

If you take into account liturgical art, church architecture, extra-liturgical devotions, spirituality, clerical dress & beard/lack thereof, then you begin to grasp the differences...

I don't know of any pre-1950 recordings of the GC liturgy. IIRC Radio Europa Libera used to broadcast the Greek Catholic DL on Sundays from abroad. But that was during the last years of Communism.



The basic liturgy of the OC of St John Chrysostomus and/or St Basil the Great? Nothing of the Catholics? I am an ignorant when it comes to catholic liturgies.
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2014, 05:40:42 PM »

The basic liturgy of the OC of St John Chrysostomus and/or St Basil the Great? Nothing of the Catholics? I am an ignorant when it comes to catholic liturgies.

Yes, basically Eastern Catholics share the same liturgy with the Orthodox. Some differ from us in the way they celebrate it (liturgical setting/context, popular devotions imported from the Latin rite and so on) and that is the case in Romania more than in other places, where they tend to stick to their Byzantine roots (e.g. the Melkites or the Ukrainians).

Before the 50's, though, the Orthodox and GCs of Transylvania were pretty close, so much so that my Father used to tell me that, when more priests were needed to celebrate an Anointment for the sick (Maslu/Euchelaion), the Greek Catholic priest was always invited.
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2014, 06:17:22 PM »

Thanks for the link. I can't say I saw anything triumphalistic or anti-Orthodox on that page, but I only spent a few minutes looking at it so it's possible I missed something.

Oh, no! Romanian Greek Catholics have adopted the ecumenically-correct language. They refer to us as 'our Orthodox brothers', but the condescending if not hostile attitude is hardly dissimulated when you speak to them in person. 

That link was meant as an illustration of how far removed an average Romanian Greek Catholic parish is from the Byzantine/Eastern ethos/spirituality. They're all about Medjugorje, Fatima, the Sacred Heart, Western Saints, the Rosary, Novenas and Eucharistic Adoration...

Well, I definitely know what you mean there, as that phenomenon is not limited to the RGCC. I could relate many experiences I've had with Catholics (many of them Latin) who are big on that kind of language-manipulation ... or just read the recent thread Greek-Catholics teaching "no-need-to-convert" for a good example.

BTW, something I'd like to ask to avoid possible misunderstanding: Would it be fair to say that you Orthodox look for a return/reunion of the RGCC to Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2014, 06:30:10 PM »

BTW, something I'd like to ask to avoid possible misunderstanding: Would it be fair to say that you Orthodox look for a return/reunion of the RGCC to Orthodoxy?

For better or worse, that's what happened in 1948, when the Communists abolished the RGCC. It's not realistic to assume the remnant which stayed Catholic will ever want to be reunited with the Romanian Orthodox Church. What the Communists did to them forever poisoned the relations between the two Churches and cancelled any prospects of reunion.

I remember when Pope John Paul II came to Bucharest, some GCs felt frustrated and betrayed because he didn't take up their cause and scold the Orthodox for what "they" had done to them.   
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2014, 07:59:33 PM »

BTW, something I'd like to ask to avoid possible misunderstanding: Would it be fair to say that you Orthodox look for a return/reunion of the RGCC to Orthodoxy?

For better or worse, that's what happened in 1948, when the Communists abolished the RGCC. It's not realistic to assume the remnant which stayed Catholic will ever want to be reunited with the Romanian Orthodox Church.

FWIW, I wish everyone were as realistic as you are. I've gotten rather tired of explaining to fellow Catholics that the dialogue and the Pope-Patriarch meetings do not mean that hundreds-of-millions of Orthodox will suddenly decide to enter Catholicism.
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« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2014, 06:10:52 AM »

Do any of you have much expertise on the subject of Romania? I would like to understand the situation there better.

For one thing, I recall that 20 years ago or so there was a great deal of tension between the Romanian OC and the Romanian GCC (because of the disputes over property). But is there much tension there nowadays?

It's not just the disputes over property, though in most eparchies the trials are still ongoing. Things will never be the way they once were (before the arrival of Communism) between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics here. The latter are very proud and claim they were the only ones to endure persecution under the former regime, whereas the Orthodox plotted with the authorities to strip them of their property and steal their flock.

With rather few exceptions, they heavily modernized/latinized their liturgy (priests facing the people at the consecration, no iconostases in newly built churches, guitar accompanied songs instead of chant, Matins routinely omitted, etc.). They strive to be as different from the Orthodox as possible, both in the language they use and in their spirituality.

Here's the website of one of their churches in my town, where our Metropolitan infamously communed with them. The priest there is a big fan of Medjugorje, pro-life activism and the Charismatic movement.     

Lord have mercy. The Romanian Greek Catholics sound more like rebellious teenagers who want to distance themselves further from their Orthodox roots and be more acceptable to Rome. This is bound to happen.
Vatican II actually compelled the Greek Catholics around the globe to return to their roots. In the USA, the Melkites and the Ruthenians (Byzantine Catholics) did away with a lot of latinizations. Why are the Romanians allowed to keep their latinizations and become even more western?

Maybe that's the problem.
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« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2014, 09:06:54 AM »

BTW, something I'd like to ask to avoid possible misunderstanding: Would it be fair to say that you Orthodox look for a return/reunion of the RGCC to Orthodoxy?

For better or worse, that's what happened in 1948, when the Communists abolished the RGCC. It's not realistic to assume the remnant which stayed Catholic will ever want to be reunited with the Romanian Orthodox Church. What the Communists did to them forever poisoned the relations between the two Churches and cancelled any prospects of reunion.

I remember when Pope John Paul II came to Bucharest, some GCs felt frustrated and betrayed because he didn't take up their cause and scold the Orthodox for what "they" had done to them.   

That is true in Slovakia and Ukraine as well. It's eighty years in America since the last great schisms took place in the Greek Catholic community over latinizing and celibacy and only in recent years are relations in families and towns more civil, even congenial. It's only twenty years since communism fell so I guess it will be another generation or two before Eastern European Greek Catholics and as Orthodox can view the communist era with dispassion and introspection.
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« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2014, 07:17:13 PM »

On a side note, do either of you guys happen to know/recall what the RGCC was called before Transylvania was incorporated into Romania?
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2014, 08:22:55 PM »

On a side note, do either of you guys happen to know/recall what the RGCC was called before Transylvania was incorporated into Romania?
It is called, "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" or RCUR,GC, not RGCC. Really BRU[cR,GC].  It was called "the Greek Uniate" church, or the "Rumanian Catholic Church." Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2014, 08:38:13 PM »

Sounds pretty much like Finland. This is basically why we are part of EP instead of MP.
Do you remember the MP was under the commies?
And the EP was under Turkish Nationalists and Islamists.  Your point?
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« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2014, 09:19:50 PM »

On a side note, do either of you guys happen to know/recall what the RGCC was called before Transylvania was incorporated into Romania?
It is called, "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" or RCUR,GC, not RGCC. Really BRU[cR,GC]. 

IC. I knew that "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" was the more official name, but I thought it was also called "Romanian Greek-Catholic Church". I guess I was misremembering.

It was called "the Greek Uniate" church, or the "Rumanian Catholic Church." Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."

Alright. A tad surprising -- I would have thought that e.g. in the early 20th century when Transylvania was still part of the Kingdom of Hungary, it might have been called something different e.g. Transylvanian. (But of course it makes sense if they called it "Rumanian" because the people were Rumanian -- not unlike how we now have the Ruthenian Church.)
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« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2014, 09:28:42 PM »

Sometimes they were called " greco-orientali Uniți" " united greco-Orientals", whereas the Orthodox were " NON-united greco- orientals"
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« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2014, 09:59:10 PM »

Sometimes they were called " greco-orientali Uniți" " united greco-Orientals", whereas the Orthodox were " NON-united greco- orientals"

That makes sense. In fact, the term "non-uniat" was in the old New Catholic Dictionary,

Quote
Non-Uniat Churches

Eight groups of schismatical or heretical Churches, which separated from Rome at various periods since the 4th century.
Abyssinian Church
Armenian Church
Bulgarian Church (considers itself part of the "Orthodox" Church, but is not so considered by some bodies of the Orthodox Church)
Coptic Church (Egypt)
Jacobite Church (Syria)
Malabar Christians (India)
Nestorian Church (Persia)
The "Orthodox" Church (with 17 subdivisions)
See also the article on the Uniat Churches.
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« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2014, 10:00:53 PM »

On a side note, do either of you guys happen to know/recall what the RGCC was called before Transylvania was incorporated into Romania?
It is called, "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" or RCUR,GC, not RGCC. Really BRU[cR,GC]. 

IC. I knew that "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" was the more official name, but I thought it was also called "Romanian Greek-Catholic Church". I guess I was misremembering.

It was called "the Greek Uniate" church, or the "Rumanian Catholic Church." Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."

Alright. A tad surprising -- I would have thought that e.g. in the early 20th century when Transylvania was still part of the Kingdom of Hungary, it might have been called something different e.g. Transylvanian. (But of course it makes sense if they called it "Rumanian" because the people were Rumanian -- not unlike how we now have the Ruthenian Church.)

Neither the Ukrainian Galicians , the Slovak Rusyns, the Magyar Rusyns nor the Polish Lemkos ever self identified as "Ruthenian." That was a  term used primarily by Rome to lump them together, which backfired on Rome when they tried to have one Galician Bishop (+Soter Ortynsky) administer the diaspora "Ruthenians"  as one unit in America prior to World War One.
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« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2014, 10:22:01 PM »

On a side note, do either of you guys happen to know/recall what the RGCC was called before Transylvania was incorporated into Romania?
It is called, "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" or RCUR,GC, not RGCC. Really BRU[cR,GC]. 

IC. I knew that "Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic" was the more official name, but I thought it was also called "Romanian Greek-Catholic Church". I guess I was misremembering.

It was called "the Greek Uniate" church, or the "Rumanian Catholic Church." Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."

Alright. A tad surprising -- I would have thought that e.g. in the early 20th century when Transylvania was still part of the Kingdom of Hungary, it might have been called something different e.g. Transylvanian. (But of course it makes sense if they called it "Rumanian" because the people were Rumanian -- not unlike how we now have the Ruthenian Church.)
btw, the old, pre-Communist, Constitution declared that "the Orthodox Christian Church and the Greek Catholic church are Romanian churches.  The Romanian Orthodox Church being the religion of the great majority of Romanians it is the dominant Church in the Romanian State, while the Greek-Catholic Church has primacy before other faiths." (Article 22).
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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2014, 12:10:11 AM »

Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."
Alba Iulia-Fagaras Eparchy was erected 1700.  Oradea Mare Eparchy was erected 1777.  When Alba-Iulia was raised to an Archeparcy in 1853, Cluj-Gherla and Lugoj Eparchies were erected.
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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2014, 01:35:02 AM »

Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."
Alba Iulia-Fagaras Eparchy was erected 1700.  Oradea Mare Eparchy was erected 1777.  When Alba-Iulia was raised to an Archeparcy in 1853, Cluj-Gherla and Lugoj Eparchies were erected.


Are you romanian? Good romanian Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2014, 04:00:10 PM »

No, sorry: the Roman Novus Ordo Mass is what Greek Catholics of my age (~30-40) grew up with, since they weren't able to attend Greek Catholic churches under Communism.. 
I know of a Greek Catholic family who attended the Orthodox Church under Communism, but reverted back to the Greek Catholic Church after the fall of communism.
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« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2014, 08:31:09 PM »

BTW, something I'd like to ask to avoid possible misunderstanding: Would it be fair to say that you Orthodox look for a return/reunion of the RGCC to Orthodoxy?

For better or worse, that's what happened in 1948, when the Communists abolished the RGCC. It's not realistic to assume the remnant which stayed Catholic will ever want to be reunited with the Romanian Orthodox Church.

FWIW, I wish everyone were as realistic as you are. I've gotten rather tired of explaining to fellow Catholics that the dialogue and the Pope-Patriarch meetings do not mean that hundreds-of-millions of Orthodox will suddenly decide to enter Catholicism.

P.S. At the risk of sounding wishy-washy, it occurs to me that the first sentence might make it sound like I'm completely in agreement with your view. I'm not; I find it a bit pessimistic.
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2014, 07:08:37 PM »

Neither the Ukrainian Galicians , the Slovak Rusyns, the Magyar Rusyns nor the Polish Lemkos ever self identified as "Ruthenian." That was a  term used primarily by Rome to lump them together, which backfired on Rome when they tried to have one Galician Bishop (+Soter Ortynsky) administer the diaspora "Ruthenians"  as one unit in America prior to World War One.

"Ruthenian" is the latinised form of "Rusyn". Btw, the term "Ukrainian" only started to become common in the 19th century. In Austria-Hungary, Ruthenian/Rusyn was the official term for all of them. Both the Rusyns of the Hungarian crown (now Carpatho-Rusyns) and those in the Austrian part of the empire (Galicia and Bukovina).
Btw, 3 years ago, a man from the Romanian part of Bukovina referred to himself as Rusyn, according to Asutrian usage. Even though they are officially called the Ukrainian minority in Romania.
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2014, 08:41:25 PM »

Or "the Archdiocese of Fogaras," as that constituted the whole of the "Greek-Rumanian rite."
Alba Iulia-Fagaras Eparchy was erected 1700.  Oradea Mare Eparchy was erected 1777.  When Alba-Iulia was raised to an Archeparcy in 1853, Cluj-Gherla and Lugoj Eparchies were erected.

as always, the maps don't lie:
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« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2014, 10:19:03 PM »

I'm not a big map maker, but here's a little something I made earlier this year, to see the locations of GC eparchies in Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, and Serbia, plus Mukacheve. (There's also a small eparchy in Brataslava, not shown in the map.)

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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2014, 07:59:00 PM »

BTW, something I'd like to ask to avoid possible misunderstanding: Would it be fair to say that you Orthodox look for a return/reunion of the RGCC to Orthodoxy?

For better or worse, that's what happened in 1948, when the Communists abolished the RGCC. It's not realistic to assume the remnant which stayed Catholic will ever want to be reunited with the Romanian Orthodox Church.

On a[nother] side note, I'll be interested to find out -- assuming we can someday -- how large that remnant actually is. (The two sides disagree widely in their estimates, which was mentioned even in
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2005/51575.htm :

Quote
According to the 2002 census, the Romanian Orthodox Church had 18,817,975 members (86.8 percent of the population). The Roman Catholic Church had 1,026,429 members. The Catholic Church of Byzantine Rite (Greek Catholics or Uniates) had 191,556 members. This figure is disputed by the Greek Catholic Church, which claims that there were many irregularities such as census takers refusing to note Greek Catholic affiliation and automatically assuming Orthodox affiliation, which led to an inaccurate result. The Greek Catholic Church estimated in 2003 that its adherents numbered more than 790,000.
)
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2014, 09:17:09 PM »

For better or worse, that's what happened in 1948, when the Communists abolished the RGCC.  
BTW, when this occurred, there were many adherents of the RGCC who simply attended the Orthodox services, which were held in Churches which were once RGC. Were there any conversion requirements, or did these RGC people simply attend the EO services and receive the EO Sacraments with no questions asked?
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2014, 09:21:51 PM »

as always, the maps don't lie:
Yes, the map shows the one archeparchy and three eparchies that constituted the Romanian Greek Catholic Church of the time.  Had you said Romanian Greek Catholic Metropolia of Fagaras and Alba Iulia I would have agreed.  The Romanian Greek Catholic Church is bigger than one archeparchy since 1777.
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2014, 09:27:10 PM »

It was the latter. I met a ninety something year old Romanian man here in Chicago who Said they just switched between the GC and Orthodox Liturgies ( ie the small linguistic quirks that differentiated the two recensions of the same rite) depening on who they knew to be attending. Like spies, police, party officials.
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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2014, 09:31:28 PM »

as always, the maps don't lie:
Yes, the map shows the one archeparchy and three eparchies that constituted the Romanian Greek Catholic Church of the time.  Had you said Romanian Greek Catholic Metropolia of Fagaras and Alba Iulia I would have agreed.  The Romanian Greek Catholic Church is bigger than one archeparchy since 1777.
It's all the same color for a reason.
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« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2014, 08:38:12 AM »

as always, the maps don't lie:
Yes, the map shows the one archeparchy and three eparchies that constituted the Romanian Greek Catholic Church of the time.  Had you said Romanian Greek Catholic Metropolia of Fagaras and Alba Iulia I would have agreed.  The Romanian Greek Catholic Church is bigger than one archeparchy since 1777.
It's all the same color for a reason.
Yes, they are the Romanian Greek Catholic eparchies.  .
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« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2014, 08:32:07 PM »

Here's something I read recently:

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It is here that the question of the establishment of Catholic diocesan structures in the former communist countries comes in. When Catholic hierarchies were re-established there, the local Russian and Romanian Orthodox churches protested strongly not only that the new structures exceeded the pastoral needs of the local Catholic faithful, but also that they had been presented with a fait accompli, not having been consulted in the decision-making process. Many Orthodox feared that this indicated the beginning of renewed Catholic proselytism in their countries. I believe that the reality was precisely the opposite: the setting in place of Catholic bishops with pastoral authority was intended partially as a way of stemming the enthusiasm of certain Catholic freelance groups who were intent on evangelizing the East, groups who either were not aware of the new attitudes towards the Orthodox or who simply disregarded them. The guidelines of the «Pro Russia» document hint that this is the case. Nevertheless, the time when the Catholic Church can make major decisions concerning its activity in an Orthodox country without input from the local Orthodox Church is over. If these are truly churches in the theological sense of the term, they must at least be consulted before such decisions are taken.

Granted that's two decades old (from Catholic-Orthodox Relations in Post-Communist Europe: Ghosts from the Past and Challenges for the Future) but it seems worthwhile nevertheless.
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« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2014, 11:45:37 AM »

It's not realistic to assume the remnant which stayed Catholic will ever want to be reunited with the Romanian Orthodox Church.

I was thinking about this comment this morning (yes, yes, I realize it was posted over a month ago).

One of the things that seems to me the most important of all is that the Orthodox must at some point be willing to (at the risk of sounding quaint or trite) let it go. I'm not, necessarily, saying that we are at that point already -- heck, for all I know I could live to see a wave of Romanian-Catholic-to-Orthodox conversions, though I'd be surprised. But I think that eventually there must come a point when the Orthodox take-no-for-an-answer, so to speak.

Just my 1.5 cents.  Smiley
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