Congregational plainchant?

[Hesychios]

Greetings all,
I live near Chicago and have been searching around for an Orthodox (OCA or ACROD) parish that still does congregational chant with a cantor. So far no luck, almost every parish seems to prefer Russian style choirs. The parish I have been attending most frequently is very much the same, and the congregation is mute.

I know that a lot of these parishes have a Carpatho-Rusyn heritage, most of them make it very explicit in their published histories. But I miss the prostopinje chant that they have seemed to discard.

Is this the common situation around the country?

Does anyone know of an OCA parish in Chicagoland that has retained the congregational plainchant?

In the Theotokos
Michael

[Anastasios]

I agree with you that it is a darned shame that prostopinije is so neglected. It is my second favorite form of chant after Byzantine.  I use it in my private prayers quite often.  I don't know any parishes in your area using it though.

[Elisha]

Greetings all,
I live near Chicago and have been searching around for an Orthodox (OCA or ACROD) parish that still does congregational chant with a cantor.

Michael,
I thought this would seem rather obvious, but the big clue here is your OCA/ACROD stipulation. The liklihood of finding a single (or few) chanters with congregation plainchant singing with your OCA/ACROD stipulation is probably even less likely than finding a GOA or byzantine style parish that doesn't employ single/few chanters and uses only full choir. Different traditions.

[Elisha]

I agree with you that it is a darned shame that prostopinije is so neglected. It is my second favorite form of chant after Byzantine. I use it in my private prayers quite often. I don't know any parishes in your area using it though.

So what really is "prostopinije"?

[Αριστοκλής]

I know I'm out of my depth here, only having attended services in 4 ACROD parishes (all using plainchant), but this might be a compromise:

http://www.stmichaelniles.org/history.html

The ACROD website has several parishes listed in your area. Have you checked them all?

[Hesychios]

Michael,
I thought this would seem rather obvious, but the big clue here is your OCA/ACROD stipulation. The liklihood of finding a single (or few) chanters with congregation plainchant singing with your OCA/ACROD stipulation is probably even less likely than finding a GOA or byzantine style parish that doesn't employ single/few chanters and uses only full choir. Different traditions.

I am more at home in the Byzantine-Slav tradition, I identify with it.

I realize that these are different traditions today, but as I stated several of the parishes in my area were originally Carpathian, and congregational prostopinje chant is definately part of their original tradition. I was hoping to find something similar to my old parish where the tradition is still strong. I feel that when everyone sings they cease to be spectators and become more active participants.

I guess that they have all become Russified over the years.

I did find one OCA parish that has introduced the congregational singing, but it is not traditional chant. They have chosen to hand out polyphonic musical scores to the whole congregation. It sounded odd to me. It is a relatively new parish composed mostly of converts and they opted for a "multi-traditional" or "non-traditional" American blend approach. Anyway I don't follow written musical scores very well and chanting is more to my ability.

For more info on prosopinje chant see http://www.acrod.org/znamennyj.html

I visited the ACROD parish in Niles Illinois, and they have a choir. I am not sure if they alternate between choir and cantoring but the time I was there they used a choir. I should probably call. In any case for a Chicagoland location they are probably as far as any parish could possibly be from my residence and I definately got a cold (or should I say disinterested) reception. It was quite discouraging, if you know what I mean.

+T+
Michael

[Αριστοκλής]

Well, Michael, in the ACROD parishes I have worshipped with, the only difference (again, in my experience) is whether a choir is chanting, the congregation chants with the choir, or no choir - as in my wife's parish. All had chanters in any case.
But perhaps I am just confused, not unusual.

[Anastasios]

Prostopinije is a chant form indigenous to the Carpathians and in a related form in use in Galicia.  It is congregationally sung with a cantor led, either in monophony or natural harmony of 3rds.  It is quite beautiful and is a complete system that can be used by itself for all Orthodox hymns.  It fell into disuse in America because when the Byz Catholics went Orthodox they were russified.  Some ACROD parishes still have it and limited arrangements of prostopinije show up in OCA parishes from time to time.

[Αριστοκλής]

Thanks, Anastasios,
Yes, what you describe is what we have here in Clymer and Homer City, PA. Our version of "harmony" might vary a little bit on any given Sunday, however. 

[Elisha]

Prostopinije is a chant form indigenous to the Carpathians and in a related form in use in Galicia. It is congregationally sung with a cantor led, either in monophony or natural harmony of 3rds. It is quite beautiful and is a complete system that can be used by itself for all Orthodox hymns. It fell into disuse in America because when the Byz Catholics went Orthodox they were russified. Some ACROD parishes still have it and limited arrangements of prostopinije show up in OCA parishes from time to time.

[Rilian]

Does anyone know where some good examples of prostopinije might be online?

[Αριστοκλής]

Does anyone know where some good examples of prostopinije might be online?

Try here:

http://www.acrod.org/music.html

for starters.

[Deacon Lance]

The Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Cantor Institue is online at:
http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org

They have several mp3s of the various services.  Currently available is the entire Paschal Matins. Polyeleos, Hosts of Angels, Gradual Hymn Tone 4, Magnificat, and Great Doxology for Sunday Matins, and the Stichera at Psalm 140 in all 8 tones for Great Vespers.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[Anastasios]

http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/index.html

Some hymns are prostopinije, some are Russian. You can tell the difference if you know some Russian chant.

My favorite being: http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/tropkr.mp3 ---> A little too harmonized for my taste but still good.
http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/trop8hl.mp3 ---> very cheery
http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/zbors17.mp3 ---> majestic sounding
http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/sl09.mp3  ---> I can guarantee you would never hear this in America but it still sounds nice.

[Rilian]

Thanks guys.

[TonyS]

http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/sl09.mp3 ---> I can guarantee you would never hear this in America but it still sounds nice.

Anastasios,

This is tone 5 irmos "Rejoice oh Isaiah" and is sung thus by a few yet (Fr. Jack Custer comes to mind) at ordinations. I was at more than one ordination in the Pittsburgh area where he lead this.

Perhaps Deacon Lance will recall it. I could probably get the notation for you if you are interested.

TonyS

[Tikhon29605]

I am both fascinated and intrigued by this discussion of Carpatho Rusyn prostopinije plainchant. The little bit I have studied about the Carpatho Rusyn and Galician musical traditions has been fascinating and enriching. I truly love their melodies, esp. the litanies. Does anyone know where I could purchase a CD of a Divine Liturgy sung in the Prostopinije chant? It would not matter if it were Slavonic or English. I'd really like to become more familiar with this music.

[Tikhon29605]

WOW!  I just listened to some of those examples of the Carpatho Rusyn music. I knew not whether I was in heaven or on earth! I was very very favorably impressed.

[TonyS]

Does anyone know where I could purchase a CD of a Divine Liturgy sung in the Prostopinije chant? It would not matter if it were Slavonic or English. I'd really like to become more familiar with this music.

http://www.byzantines.net/byzantinepress/cd_video.htm

[Anastasios]

Anastasios,

This is tone 5 irmos "Rejoice oh Isaiah" and is sung thus by a few yet (Fr. Jack Custer comes to mind) at ordinations.  I was at more than one ordination in the Pittsburgh area where he lead this. 

Perhaps Deacon Lance will recall it.  I could probably get the notation for you if you are interested.

TonyS

Really, when I heard it sung it sounded diffrently. It almost sounds like they were putting an ison in...?

[TonyS]

Really, when I heard it sung it sounded diffrently. It almost sounds like they were putting an ison in...?

Anastasios,

Really. Perhaps they are putting an ison in it. IIRC it is harmonized and the Bokshaj-Malinich Prostopinije is written in one voice, as is the later Papp Irmologion, that may account for the different sound.

In any event I called up a friend and he heard it over the phone and agreed, so it is not my imagination.

At the ordination you accompanied me to in 2002 in Passaic, apparently that was sung with the accompanying tropars to the regular tone 7 (the others are in tone 7). Tone 7 is much easier than this piece.

Not all is lost in the world of Prostopinije. Some would like it lost no doubt. It is however alive and well in many places and many people care enough to try to sing it well.

TonyS

Just a note:  This is also sung at weddings IIRC just in another order.

[Anastasios]

Tony,

Thanks for the info. I rather like this composition, actually.  I am glad to hear it is more common than I had been led to believe.

Anastasios

[Lemko Rusyn]

Does anyone know of an OCA parish in Chicagoland that has retained the congregational plainchant?

It seems terribly odd that there would be not even one, since His Grace, Bishop Job of Chicago, is of Rusyn background and is a lover of prostopinije.  When he was pastor of St. John the Baptist Church in Black Lick, Pa., his parish choir recorded a Paschal Divine Liturgy LP that was about 1/2 in prostopinije, in both English and Church Slavonic.  I believe some of the prostopinije was his own arrangement for choir.

[Hesychios]

It seems terribly odd that there would be not even one, since His Grace, Bishop Job of Chicago, is of Rusyn background and is a lover of prostopinije...

There may be one or two around, but I have not come across them yet. I might start visiting the Ukrainians to see what they do.

I agree with your comment about how odd it is, and Ss Peter and Paul parish (his original home) is where I have been attending. That makes it ironic.

Ss Peter and Paul was established by parishioners from my old parish where they sing Prostpinije so beautifully, which makes it doubly ironic.

The parish today is mute. They just stand and listen to the choir.

+T+
Michael

[stephen.r]

Carpatho-Rusyn immigrants arrived in America as Greek Catholics. They had bad relations with the Hungarian Roman Catholic bishops in the old country, and soon discovered that the Irish bishops in the USA were going to be even worse, so a movement arose to return to Orthodoxy; both Carpatho-Rusyns and Galicians participated in this movement, thus providing the demographic backbone of the Russian jursidictions in the northeastern US when  jursidictional pluralism arose after the First World War.

However, almost immediately these congregations transferred their allegiance to Russian bishops, their own traditional religious culture began to be undermined. The process intensified with the arrival of a new wave of immigrants from Russia, refugees from the Bolsheviks. The Rusyns were uneducated peasants who became coal miners and steel mill laborers, and spoke an old-fashioned dialect in some respects antedating the split between Russian and Ukrainian and decorated by words of German, Hungarian, Romanian, and even Arabic origin; the new refugees were aristocrats and intellectuals (who had the resources to escape the Bolsheviks), and had nothing in common with the Rusyns culturally. So the Rusyn culture was suppressed on the pretext that any differences between it and Russian culture were Latinisms, corruptions that had arisen in the Unia.

In truth, there *were* a number of such Latin corruptions; there were also many elements representing old Orthodox traditions that had been lost by the Russians centuries earlier. Almost no one had the knowledge to discriminate between these, and so all the 'Rusyn peculiarities' were replaced by 'correct' Russian practice.

One result of this was the many Uniates who might otherwise have joined the move back to Orthodoxy preferred to stay where they were so as not to lose their ancestral traditions (and subsequently were subjected to much worse latinization than anyone dreamed of in the 1920s).

Another is that the second wave of Rusyns to return to Orthodoxy, in the 1930s, avoided Russian bishops and instead took refuge under the omophorion of the Patriarch of Constantinople. When the cultural traditions that they sought to preserve in this way are mentioned, Prostopinije always stands high on the list.

Recordings of Prostopinije are limited. The most readily available are those of English settings by Prof. J. Michael Thompson of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan Cantor Intstitute. Prof Thompson uses the Bokshai collect of 1905 as his source, and steers a middle course between watering down the melodies to accommodate the English text easily (as was done several decades ago) on the one hand, and preserving the melodies at the expense of ignoring the stress accents of the English text (as was done in reaction to the oversimplified versions formerly in circulation). These are professional choral setting sung by trained choirs, and not documentary recordings of congregational singing.

Some decades ago, a 10-inch 78 rpm record of the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic was issued by Michael Hilko, the cantor and choir director of St Peter and Paul Church in Passaic. Prof Hilko was a Russian patriot politically and had thorough professional musical training, but unlike most Russian choir directors he recognized the value of Prostopinije and arranged it for his choir, using the version preserved in the oral tradition of his parish.

A set of instructional records, also in 10-inch 78 rpm format, was issued in then Czechoslovakia, along with the Papp Irmologion of 1970 (a revision of the Bokshai book of 1906). These have a *lot* of Prostopinije sung solo by a Greek Catholic cantor of Preshov, Nikifor Petrashevich. They were reissued in the United States.

Traditionally, Prostopinije is sung 1) in unison (of course, a real congregation of men, women, and children is not singing literally in unison);

2) in two parts, in parallel thirds--what is called _samojilka_ singing in its simplest form;

3) in so-called 'natural harmony,' which however does not have here the textbook meaning of triadic harmony in accord with Western musical theory. Recently, transcriptions of such singing have been posted to the Prostopinije list (Yahoo Groups), made from tapes of a Pascal service in Slavonec by the daughter of the cantor who was leading the singing recorede on the tapes. There are four parts: the upper two are in parallel thirds, as described above; the third is almost all on the key note, and this may be what sounded like ison as described in this thread; the fourth was a simple bass employing only a few notes. There is no useful discussion of this sort of singing as far as I know, and these new transcriptions are the first I have encountered made from documentary recordings.

Related to Prostopinje: the Galician chant, which is better provided with notated books; and the Bukovina chant, with one book and that entirely unobtainable. But manuscript irmologia containing a related repertory show that the Prostopinije is part of a tradtion once prevalent in all of Ukraine and Biealrus'; in most of its former territory, this tradition has suffered the same fate as the Prostopinije in Russian jursidictions in the USA.

Stephen

[stephen.r]

PS--both Prostopinije and Galician chant can be found on Deacon Silouan (Sloan) Rolando's "Unmercenary" web site. Have a look!

Stephen

[stephen.r]

A correction: Michael Hilko's chuch in Passaic was not SS Peter & Paul but St John's.  He served there for over 40 years.

Stephen

[Elisha]

http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/index.html

http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/zbors17.mp3  ---> majestic sounding
http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/sl09.mp3 ---> I can guarantee you would never hear this in America but it still sounds nice.

No way, man!  My parish would so break your guarantee.  Listen to a few tracks from our CD http://glendi.net/cd/playlist.html (of which you should scold Prof. David Drillock if it isn't in your bookstore on campus, since our priest was one of his favorite students 20+ years ago).  I'm thinking that some of the hymns listed as Carpatho-Russian are actually forms of....what ever that word is.  We do almost all types...if we like it.

[Hesychios]

Thanks to all! Especially to Stevn.r for his outstanding write up.

I am a musical dunderhead myself, but I love the prostopnije. If the church doesn't make a serious effort to recover this in the parishes it will be a great loss. I really think it makes the liturgy more attractive to visitors who can sing along easily and feel involved right away. Children like it too, from my observation even four year old children will sing if the rest of the congregation is singing. When a choir is the source of the responses, children want to play in the pews with mom's purse!

+T+
Michael

[Elisha]

Anastastios, you are so wrong!  http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/sl04.mp3 is the same track as: “Turn Not Thy Countenance”
Prokeimenon of Forgiveness Vespers, Tone 8, Carpatho-Russian Chant from our cd!   :booty: :headbang:

[Anastasios]

Anastastios, you are so wrong! http://www.grkat.nfo.sk/hudba/sl04.mp3 is the same track as: “Turn Not Thy Countenance”
Prokeimenon of Forgiveness Vespers, Tone 8, Carpatho-Russian Chant from our cd! :booty: :headbang:

Is your parish Carpatho-Rusyn?  Or does it just pick out neat arrangements? My point which I should have elucidated better was that in an American Carpatho-Ruysn parish that arrangement is NOT common.  But I am glad that your parish does it as it is such a beautiful melody.

Anastasios

[Lemko Rusyn]

Some decades ago, a 10-inch 78 rpm record of the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic was issued by Michael Hilko, the cantor and choir director of St Peter and Paul Church in Passaic. Prof Hilko was a Russian patriot politically and had thorough professional musical training, but unlike most Russian choir directors he recognized the value of Prostopinije and arranged it for his choir, using the version preserved in the oral tradition of his parish.

Dear Prof. Reynolds,
Hilko's Divine Liturgy (Slu++ba Bo++ija Uhorskaho Prostopinija) was a 33 1/2 rpm record.

A set of instructional records, also in 10-inch 78 rpm format, was issued in then Czechoslovakia, along with the Papp Irmologion of 1970 (a revision of the Bokshai book of 1906). These have a *lot* of Prostopinije sung solo by a Greek Catholic cantor of Preshov, Nikifor Petrashevich. They were reissued in the United States.

Nykyfor Petrashevych (1915-?) was actually a Greek Catholic priest (ord. 1941).

[Elisha]

Is your parish Carpatho-Rusyn? Or does it just pick out neat arrangements? My point which I should have elucidated better was that in an American Carpatho-Ruysn parish that arrangement is NOT common. But I am glad that your parish does it as it is such a beautiful melody.

Anastasios

Nah, were OCA, but our Priest is of Carpatho descent, although I don't think that influences that music that much as we do a lot of Znammeny.  David Drillock seems to think we do the most of any parish in the country (Znammeny).

[choirfiend]

The musical traditions are so fascinating to me. It might have been said already spread throughout the thread, but does anyone have CDs or resources to which I might be pointed?

My parish does a "variety" of musics. I say this because, supposedly to increase congregational participation, the choir was reduced to doing a single set of music for the Liturgy several years ago. They're slowing adding things back in (like now they have 3 Holy Gods to choose from) but while the music vacillates between Obikhod and byzantine, romanian, etc, it's not the really varied presentation of music that changes every week with the tones that I am normalized to. They also started doing Kievan Vespers a few years ago b.c the priest decided it as well. It's quite pretty, just always the same. There's a real dislike of Obikhod and there's too little confidence in the ability of the congregation to learn music by hearing it, IMHO, so while I'd love to see some plainchant incorporated into the parish, I dont think that will happen.

Oh, someday, when I move somewhere, a church will ask me to direct, and I'll try my best to do so with extreme musicality in the praising of God.

[stephen.r]

Dear Lemko,

Thanks for the corrections; of course, you are right; the Hilko record isn't *that* old, and is 33 1/3 and not 78. I may have heard that N. P. was an ordained priest long ago, but if so I forgot it. The records issued with the Papp book are 33 1/3 rpms too.

Stephen

[stephen.r]

Nah, were OCA, but our Priest is of Carpatho descent, although I don't think that influences that music that much as we do a lot of Znammeny.  David Drillock seems to think we do the most of any parish in the country (Znammeny).

But note that Znamenny is also present in Prostopinije. Except for Nativity, Theophany, and Meeting of the Lord, the irmosy are mostly either straight Znamenny or in some cases a somewhat simplified Znamenny, and there are some other instances. The sticheral doxastika and theotokia were formerly also sung in Znamenny chant, which can be found in old manuscript irmologia (and in the printed Irmologion form L'viv), but these seem to have dropped out of CR usage in the 19th century, before notated prostopinije began to appear in printed books.

The Russian Znamenny is a different recension, but most of the melodies are quite recognizable and differ only in details. The main difference is the "new repertory" composed by the Russian chant masters of the 16th / early 17th centuries, which of course the Galicians and Carpatho-Rusyns never had.

Stephen

[Tikhon29605]

I am so favorably impressed by both the Galician and Carpatho Rusyn musical traditions. While I cannot define exactly why I like their music, I really enjoy it. It seems so lively and based on folk melodies. I wish its use were more widespread.  Does anyone know if ACROD has published a Carpatho Rusyn or Galician setting of the Divine Liturgy?

[stephen.r]

Dear Tikhon,

They do indeed. Just go to their web site and contact them about the Liturgy book.

You can also get a Prostopinije liturgy from the Byz. Catholic Seminary in Pittsburgh. I might be interesting to compare them.

Stephen

[admiralnick]

Michael,

I go to St. Michael's in Niles, IL. And I also happen to be the Son of the Cantor of the Church. Its funny that you mention that you came on a Sunday when the Choir sang since they pretty much only sing 16 Sundays out of the year at most. The choir director, you see, doesn't like to come to church in the summer because it's "too hot". So my Dad, myself, my mom, and an older woman sing 4 person Prostopinije chant. During the winter months, we are supposed to alternate Sundays, but the choir usually likes to sing for any major feast days, mothers day, graduate sunday, first confession, etc. The even sang Palm Sunday, Pascha, and Thomas Sunday (Mother's Day) this year not giving us a chance to sing. We don't harmonize or any such, we simply all sing the chant music as written in the diocesan book. However, my father has written all of the Prostopinije chant for just about any feast day in the Church. And we use his writings every Sunday for Tropar, Kondak, etc. I apologize for the reception you received when you visited, the church there is quite family political orientated and isn't very open to outsiders. If I would have seen you visiting, I would've invited you over to my table with the rest of us who have no family members and consequently no political interests for Coffee Hour (I don't tend to meet many visitors since I'm usually in the choir loft and not paying attention to the main floor) and I usually sing the Panachida service with my father afterwards before coming down for coffee. I apologize on behalf of my parish that you got such a poor reception. I promise that if you let me know when you are coming, I will make sure that your visit is much more rewarding. If you would like to, i'm sure you could join us upstairs and offer your voice to sing as we need all the help we can get. For the most part, the chant group should be singing untill Middle of September.

If you are interested in giving my parish another chance, I'm sure that you will be in for a treat.

Nick

[username!]

Prostopijne, Carpathian Plain Chant is beautiful.  The cantor sits with the people.  In my experiences there isn't a choir.  There is the cantor and a few people that could pass as cantors as well.
You'll actually hear the cantor start a certain part and the people come right in behind once she/he has set the tone.  Everyone sings.  It is a moving experience.  You won't hear beautiful arranged choral pieces, which are awesome as well.  You'll hear a chant and style that everyone can sing.
This link takes a while to load.  It is a great resource to hear prostopijne in some English and Church Slavonic. 
http://www.patronagechurch.com/Divine_Liturgy_1966/Divine_Liturgy_Kocisko_1966.htm

[username!]

In the link I provided, listen to the Litany.  It is in English, but I think it provides the best everyday Protospijne.  This is the chant you would hear the priest sing and the way Carpathian Chant intones the Lord Have Mercy and Amen.
Also, you'll have people in the congregation that will 1/3rd the scale (I think that is how you would put it).  That is, they will sing on their own a 1/3rd higher or lower than what the main congregation is singing. 

[Silouan]

You'll hear a chant and style that everyone can sing.

If that is what is desired why not use Byzantine Chant?  Why is there a need to inovate when the Church already has a well established chanting tradition?

[username!]

I think the thread originated with the Carpatho-question.  Prostopijne is a Carpatho-Rusyn (Ruthenian) style of music.  No one is arguing which is better or what not.  We were discussing one of the styles of congregational singing, particulary the one originally found amoung the hills of what is now Western Ukraine, Southeastern Poland, and Eastern Slovakia (have I missed any geographical locations?).  This style just happens to be called prostopijne.  I am aware there are other styles of congregational singing.  If the thread were about byzantine chanting, then I would have discussed Byzantine chanting.
But it wasn't about it.  So, I find your comment out of topic and condescending.

[username!]

And, it isn't innovating the church.ÂÂ  I never suggested changing singing styles in any church.ÂÂ  I just offered my personal experiences from parishes under a certain jurisdiction that use prostopijne in almost every service.ÂÂ  If I went into a GOA church I would not expect them to change to Carpathian Plain Chant and vice versa.ÂÂ  It is just a decent conversation on the various ethnic customs and cultures that exist in what is a rather large and diverse Orthodox world, with this thread being focused on prostopijne.
Also, the thread also touched on how the Carpathian people/Ruthenian people lost their unique ethnic way of prostopijne when those that switched from Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic to ACROD.ÂÂ  And lost one of their unique Ruthenian (Rusyn, lemko) customs..  prostopijne.ÂÂ  

[anncatherine]

On the original topic: I believe St. Joseph's in Wheaton uses primarily congregational singing, there is no choir.  However it is not chant, but is congregational singing based on choral music.  Fr. John Matusiak is the priest there.  I was there with a traveling choir from St. Vlad's and it was a bit of a shock to all of them not to sing all of the liturgy themselves.  However, they were extremely kind and hospitable to all of us while we were there.  Good luck.

Ann

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