Author Topic: Joint Declaration by Pope Francis and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 9111 times)

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Offline Sirach

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"Well aware that unity is manifested in love of God and love of neighbor, we look forward in eager anticipation to the day in which we will finally partake together in the Eucharistic banquet... to prepare to receive this gift of Eucharistic communion... through the confession of the one faith, persevering prayer, inner conversion, renewal of life and fraternal dialogue. By achieving this hoped for goal, we will manifest to the world the love of God by which we are recognized as true disciples of Jesus Christ (cf. Jn 13:35).

"To this end, the theological dialogue undertaken by the Joint International Commission offers a fundamental contribution to the search for full communion among Catholics and Orthodox... the progress of our theological encounters has been substantial... This is no mere theoretical exercise, but an exercise in truth and love that demands an ever deeper knowledge of each other's traditions in order to understand them and to learn from them. Thus we affirm once again that the theological dialogue does not seek a theological lowest common denominator on which to reach a compromise, but is rather about deepening one's grasp of the whole truth that Christ has given to his Church, a truth that we never cease to understand better as we follow the Holy Spirit's promptings. Hence, we affirm together that our faithfulness to the Lord demands fraternal encounter and true dialogue."


Joint Declaration by Pope Francis and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew (25 May, 2014)

The EP and the Pope are obviously very keen on the Joint International Commission.  The JIC has had 12 meetings in 30 years.  Do you have a sense, inkling, or notion of how the other Orthodox Patriarchates feel about the work of the commission?


Offline primuspilus

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Just like I said. Nothing will come of their meeting except feel-good nonsense. The EP has no intention of joining Rome.

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Offline sakura95

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Just as what primuspilus said, there is nothing that would come out of it. This is merely for ecumenical purposes as to reduce tensions between the two communions. There is no doubt the Catholic misconception of the Orthodox Churches being willing to join Rome and form a single church from declarations such as these but overall, there would be no reunion, even if the Ecumenical Patriarch is willing and happy to submit to Rome. I would honestly admit that at a time when I still hold my Roman Catholic beliefs, I have the same impression too, at least until I visited some Orthodox websites myself and get the real picture.

Also, given the context of the declaration, it just simply sums up as "We are willing to talk to each other about our Doctrines and Traditions", nothing more, nothing less. So overall, nothing much would come up from it.  
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 04:04:09 PM by sakura95 »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Just like I said. Nothing will come of their meeting except feel-good nonsense. The EP has no intention of joining Rome.

PP

In reading the published works of the Joint International Commission, one will see that the work of the Commission over the decades has shown that many of the issues which appear to be the basis of deep theological divisions between us are in fact more in the nature of approach, rather than substance BUT that no substantive progress has been made with respect to the deepest of the divisive issues which relate to the nature of the Church and the role of the Papacy. As Pope Emeritus Benedict is reported to have noted, the Orthodox have moved as far as they can with respect to the talks, it is up to Rome to take the next step. To date, there are many platitudes,but little real movement from the Roman side. I suspect that will remain the case absent the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

But Christianity is better served as a whole with respect to standing up to humanists and Islamists if we exchange sincere platitudes with the Romans rather than brickbats. Essentially we are at the 'agree to disagree' stage and likely to remain there.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Is it just me or did somebody, when we weren't looking, change the definition of "anathema" from "accursed" and "condemned" to "Well...we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church, but we can still be BFFs, right?"  ??? ???
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Offline CopticDeacon

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Is it just me or did somebody, when we weren't looking, change the definition of "anathema" from "accursed" and "condemned" to "Well...we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church, but we can still be BFFs, right?"  ??? ???

That is a vague statement without referencing which anathema, but as far as I know all anathemas of the Great Schism were lifted years ago. Anathema's definition is the same, but we aren't dealing with that issue anymore. Its not "we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church" its "We disagree on major issues, therefore we cannot commune together if are separate. Communion is unity into one. Our different views divide us, thus conflicting with Communion."

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Is it just me or did somebody, when we weren't looking, change the definition of "anathema" from "accursed" and "condemned" to "Well...we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church, but we can still be BFFs, right?"  ??? ???

That is a vague statement without referencing which anathema, but as far as I know all anathemas of the Great Schism were lifted years ago. Anathema's definition is the same, but we aren't dealing with that issue anymore. Its not "we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church" its "We disagree on major issues, therefore we cannot commune together if are separate. Communion is unity into one. Our different views divide us, thus conflicting with Communion."

Peace and Love of Jesus Christ.

Rome still has anathema on anyone who denies the supremacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome.
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Is it just me or did somebody, when we weren't looking, change the definition of "anathema" from "accursed" and "condemned" to "Well...we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church, but we can still be BFFs, right?"  ??? ???

That is a vague statement without referencing which anathema, but as far as I know all anathemas of the Great Schism were lifted years ago. Anathema's definition is the same, but we aren't dealing with that issue anymore. Its not "we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church" its "We disagree on major issues, therefore we cannot commune together if are separate. Communion is unity into one. Our different views divide us, thus conflicting with Communion."

Peace and Love of Jesus Christ.

Rome still has anathema on anyone who denies the supremacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome.
Yes, exactly my point, as well as basically all Protestants, probably those who aren't down with the Filioque (not 100% sure), iconoclasts, Origenists, actual monophysites (no offense to OO meant per the rules of this board), Nestorians, Eutychians, and Arians. The terms are pretty clear: If anyone believes/rejects X let him be anathema.

Yet thanks to ecumenism it seems like we're trying to be BFFs with just about every one of those and a few others besides. I'm just not sure what it accomplishes really. Maybe a false peace.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Is it just me or did somebody, when we weren't looking, change the definition of "anathema" from "accursed" and "condemned" to "Well...we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church, but we can still be BFFs, right?"  ??? ???

That is a vague statement without referencing which anathema, but as far as I know all anathemas of the Great Schism were lifted years ago. Anathema's definition is the same, but we aren't dealing with that issue anymore. Its not "we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church" its "We disagree on major issues, therefore we cannot commune together if are separate. Communion is unity into one. Our different views divide us, thus conflicting with Communion."

Peace and Love of Jesus Christ.

Rome still has anathema on anyone who denies the supremacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome.
Yes, exactly my point, as well as basically all Protestants, probably those who aren't down with the Filioque (not 100% sure), iconoclasts, Origenists, actual monophysites (no offense to OO meant per the rules of this board), Nestorians, Eutychians, and Arians. The terms are pretty clear: If anyone believes/rejects X let him be anathema.

Yet thanks to ecumenism it seems like we're trying to be BFFs with just about every one of those and a few others besides. I'm just not sure what it accomplishes really. Maybe a false peace.


I agree. But Rome was the originator of this Ecumenism.
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Offline John Larocque

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The Joint Commision works the same way as ARCIC. The Joint Commission still has some life in it, but ARCIC - the vehicle for full communion between Anglicans and Roman Catholics - however is very much dead. But they've produced a lot of stuff. For example, here's their document on the Eucharist:

http://www.prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/arcic/doc/e_arcic_eucharist.html

The word transubstantiation is an obstacle for union with the Anglicans, so it's relegated to a footnote and no longer anchored to a scholastic understanding of what happens.

Quote
The word transubstantiation is commonly used in the Roman Catholic Church to indicate that God acting in the eucharist effects a change in the inner reality of the elements. The term should be seen as affirming the fact of Christ's presence and of the mysterious and radical change which takes place. In contemporary Roman Catholic theology it is not understood as explaining how the change takes place.

And this is how it goes.

The ARCIC documents on authority in the church are instructive. The Roman bottom line for full communion (with Anglicans) has always been universal primacy exercised by the Bishop of Rome (no matter how it is theologically expressed) and that comes clear in the documents on "authority in the church". It's always been the bottom line.

« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 04:43:07 PM by John Larocque »

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Yeah, lots of documents but the only thing that's really happened is the Anglican Ordinariate for those who wanted to become Catholics but worship like Anglicans, with the necessary corrections. And by nature that's limited to whole parishes that want to convert of their own accord because they're fed up with Anglican shenanigans.

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Offline Papist

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 I suspect that will remain the case absent the intervention of the Holy Spirit.


Yep
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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yeah, that.

And while I'm at it, you guys have Pan-Orthodox things all the time so it's not a problem, but if we're going to practice ecumenism, why don't we start by having some ecumenism between the Roman Catholic parishes and the Ukrainian and the Byzantine and the Syro-Malabar Catholic parishes around here? And I don't mean the Ukrainian parish gets to put a note in the bulletin about its pieroghi and kielbasa sale  ::)
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Offline Nicene

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.
Thank you.

Offline Nephi

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.

But theologians and hierarchs don't debate... They just have committees write and submit papers back and forth.

Offline Nicene

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.

But theologians and hierarchs don't debate... They just have committees write and submit papers back and forth.

How far we have fallen from the example of Patriarch Jeremiah and the scholars of Ausberg.

Thank you.

Offline Balthasar

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness made a statement in the address of the notoriously persecuting Muslims:

--Enough is enough!
--Stop mistreating Christians
--You'll burn in hell if you don't stop
--Jesus is the only way



Offline primuspilus

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.
I'd rather Patriarch Kiril TBH.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness made a statement in the address of the notoriously persecuting Muslims:

--Enough is enough!
--Stop mistreating Christians
--You'll burn in hell if you don't stop
--Jesus is the only way
Never happen. Its too politically inconvenient.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline podkarpatska

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.
I'd rather Patriarch Kiril TBH.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness made a statement in the address of the notoriously persecuting Muslims:

--Enough is enough!
--Stop mistreating Christians
--You'll burn in hell if you don't stop
--Jesus is the only way
Never happen. Its too politically inconvenient.

PP

For the many of you who despise the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such a statement would no doubt solve your problem and dispose of the Patriarch.

Offline primuspilus

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Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.
I'd rather Patriarch Kiril TBH.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness sat down and had a vigorous but respectful debate on the issues which actually divide us? Would that not do more for attempting to bridge the gap than any false platitude.

Could you imagine the worlds reaction if both the Pope and his Holiness made a statement in the address of the notoriously persecuting Muslims:

--Enough is enough!
--Stop mistreating Christians
--You'll burn in hell if you don't stop
--Jesus is the only way
Never happen. Its too politically inconvenient.

PP

For the many of you who despise the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such a statement would no doubt solve your problem and dispose of the Patriarch.
I dont hate him at all. I would be beyond honored to meet him. However, a spade is a spade. It would be a political disaster for him to say that...especially with his current mailing address...

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Peter J

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For the many of you who despise the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such a statement would no doubt solve your problem and dispose of the Patriarch.
I dont hate him at all. I would be beyond honored to meet him. However, a spade is a spade. It would be a political disaster for him to say that...especially with his current mailing address...

PP
Who says you guys aren't capable of dwelling on the negative?
- Peter Jericho

Offline primuspilus

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For the many of you who despise the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such a statement would no doubt solve your problem and dispose of the Patriarch.
I dont hate him at all. I would be beyond honored to meet him. However, a spade is a spade. It would be a political disaster for him to say that...especially with his current mailing address...

PP
Who says you guys aren't capable of dwelling on the negative?
So if the Patriarch started railing against Islam, that would be a good thing for him? Ask that blogger who got arrested for "insulting the prophet".

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Peter J

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For the many of you who despise the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such a statement would no doubt solve your problem and dispose of the Patriarch.
I dont hate him at all. I would be beyond honored to meet him. However, a spade is a spade. It would be a political disaster for him to say that...especially with his current mailing address...

PP
Who says you guys aren't capable of dwelling on the negative?
So if the Patriarch started railing against Islam, that would be a good thing for him?
Do you even need to ask?  :(

Anyhow, seems a rather odd reply to my comment that you and podkarpatska (well, mostly podkarpatska) are dwelling on the negative.
- Peter Jericho

Offline podkarpatska

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For the many of you who despise the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such a statement would no doubt solve your problem and dispose of the Patriarch.
I dont hate him at all. I would be beyond honored to meet him. However, a spade is a spade. It would be a political disaster for him to say that...especially with his current mailing address...

PP
Who says you guys aren't capable of dwelling on the negative?
So if the Patriarch started railing against Islam, that would be a good thing for him?
Do you even need to ask?  :(

Anyhow, seems a rather odd reply to my comment that you and podkarpatska (well, mostly podkarpatska) are dwelling on the negative.

Sorry for the derail, you are correct in bringing that up!

Here is a rather objective commentary from a Priest-monk from Moscow on the declaration.

"The problem of such declarations is that they often remain at the level of the heads of the Churches, in this case on the level of the Pope of Rome and Patriarch of Constantinople. Whether it affects the lives of ordinary believers depends primarily upon us: the hierarchy and clergy, and not on the average believer. Let us hope that these words will not be empty intentions, but a specific program to address the still existing differences between the Catholic West and the Orthodox East.”

Source: http://www.pravmir.com/hieromonk-john-guaita-hope-declaration-pope-patriarch-will-become-empty-words/#ixzz33CnTN7HU

Offline Sirach

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So the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church should become the Joint International Program for Resolving Theological Differences Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Offline jah777

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Is it just me or did somebody, when we weren't looking, change the definition of "anathema" from "accursed" and "condemned" to "Well...we really don't think you should be receiving Communion at our church, but we can still be BFFs, right?"  ??? ???

That is a vague statement without referencing which anathema, but as far as I know all anathemas of the Great Schism were lifted years ago. Anathema's definition is the same, but we aren't dealing with that issue anymore.

The "lifting of the anathemas" of 1054 was a meaningless gesture made by the Ecumenical Patriarch without the consent and agreement of the other Orthodox churches, which is why it has produced no real results in the subsequent five decades.  It is meaningless because an Ecumenical Patriarch does not have the authority to unilaterally remove anathemas that were declared by Pan-Orthodox and Ecumenical Councils and accepted by the entirety of the Church.  It was the First Ecumenical Council that declared anathema against anyone who would add to or alter the Symbol of Faith (Nicene Creed).  The Council in Constantinople under St. Photios in the 9th century likewise anathematized the Filioque, and many Orthodox consider this to be the 8th Ecumenical Council.  The anathemas against the Filioque have been confirmed and reiterated by many Pan-Orthodox Councils since, including that in 1848 which led to the Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs from that year.  Since the Great Schism, the Popes have adopted even more heresies so that the Filioque is now just one among the many heretical teachings that divide Rome from Christ and the truth. 

The anathemas of the Great Schism may be "lifted" in the eyes of the Ecumenical Patriarch, but not in the eyes of the Orthodox Church.     

Offline John Larocque

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