Author Topic: Men and friendship  (Read 2051 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Men and friendship
« on: May 26, 2014, 12:33:25 PM »
The problem is acute enough that I expect my even raising it for discussion will bring some feelings of discomfort -- But here's the issue: In America, men finding and keeping friendships is becoming less and less likely. According to a study from about a year ago, by the time American men reach middle age, almost a majority of them report having no friends at all. (I can't help but then think of the statistics released a few months ago showing the middle aged are now the most likely demographic to commit suicide.) There seems to be something in culture that isolates and fragments men, at last drowning them in a confused depression and aggression only their families can tolerate. Of course this was not always the case in America, and perhaps the problem is growing in countries besides America -- I don't know. What I do know is that I reached out to a bachelor neighbor here not long ago -- he was going through surgery and some other things -- to find him completely socially isolated. He referred to men he knew in school who are now in the same shape. I also was entirely lonely for years before I married late. Yet even as we admitted and discussed the problem, the idea of reaching out to, say, his old schoolmates, or of he and I becoming better acquainted could be felt just to paralyze rather than motivate us.

Does anyone else recognize a problem, or have ideas of its causes? If so, should something be done about it? Can something be done about it?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Luke

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2014, 12:47:24 PM »
^ Some people substitute the Internet for all live conversations -- not good.

Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2014, 02:01:27 PM »
I could speculate that it has to do with an increasing decentralized society and the technologies we've developed to support that. We have cars that allow us to work further from home, TV and computers that allow us to bring the world to our homes rather than ever needing to leave them. Being Orthodox church may be further from home than it would be for the Protestant or Catholic. But even for the Protestant the drive to find the church that's right for "me" may mean passing by multiple neighborhood churches that could serve to unite us with those geographically close to us instead bond us to people that are to far away for frequent contact. At the same time the aforementioned information technology allows us to develop interests that are unique to ourselves because we have access. So two people on the same block who formerly would only be able to access the same information and most of that local can now develop interests that separated by continents and perhaps mutually excluded.
So in short things over which we used to bond close physically proximity and shared interests have been drastically lessened. At least this is what I would suggest.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2014, 03:24:37 PM »
There's far too much truth in everything that has been said to this point. It is important to keep working on those relationships where even only the slightest connections exists.

Porter, keep working on your relationship with your bachelor friend. Do your best to let things develop naturally. Don't try to force something artificial into the mix. Perhaps get him to help you with a project around your house, then finish off with a sit-down time with beverage of choice. Getting him to help you with something (even if slightly contrived) avoids the awkwardness of asking "Is there anything I can do for you?" to which most of us would answer a somewhat untruthful "No".

Church relationships are important. It is true we may not live particularly close to each other, but there are ways of making it work. We don't have a formal "men's group" as such, but on Tuesday evenings (usually) we chanters - all male - meet to prepare for upcoming services. We've let other men know that we are at the church and they're welcome to join us - at least half of our time is spent on non-music matters. Sometimes with just sit and drink coffee while having a good chat, sometimes odd jobs around the building get done, that sort of thing. No structure. We have some who join us somewhat regularly and some occasional drop-ins. We're a small parish - a bit of a struggle to stay above 20 on a Sunday morning. Tuesday evenings we'll have from two to ten, usually four or five. It works for us.

Offline WPM

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2014, 03:43:11 PM »
Seek out working relationships thru your church.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2014, 06:14:17 PM »
I could speculate that it has to do with an increasing decentralized society and the technologies we've developed to support that. We have cars that allow us to work further from home, TV and computers that allow us to bring the world to our homes rather than ever needing to leave them. Being Orthodox church may be further from home than it would be for the Protestant or Catholic. But even for the Protestant the drive to find the church that's right for "me" may mean passing by multiple neighborhood churches that could serve to unite us with those geographically close to us instead bond us to people that are to far away for frequent contact. At the same time the aforementioned information technology allows us to develop interests that are unique to ourselves because we have access. So two people on the same block who formerly would only be able to access the same information and most of that local can now develop interests that separated by continents and perhaps mutually excluded.
So in short things over which we used to bond close physically proximity and shared interests have been drastically lessened. At least this is what I would suggest.

Do you think this decentralization affects men more? Do you think it would be good to get back to proximity's being meaningful in relationships? How do we do that?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2014, 06:15:29 PM »
Seek out working relationships thru your church.

Probably other readers understand what you're advising here, but I'm too new to the Church -- can you give some details?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2014, 06:17:18 PM »
There's far too much truth in everything that has been said to this point. It is important to keep working on those relationships where even only the slightest connections exists.

Porter, keep working on your relationship with your bachelor friend. Do your best to let things develop naturally. Don't try to force something artificial into the mix. Perhaps get him to help you with a project around your house, then finish off with a sit-down time with beverage of choice. Getting him to help you with something (even if slightly contrived) avoids the awkwardness of asking "Is there anything I can do for you?" to which most of us would answer a somewhat untruthful "No".

Church relationships are important. It is true we may not live particularly close to each other, but there are ways of making it work. We don't have a formal "men's group" as such, but on Tuesday evenings (usually) we chanters - all male - meet to prepare for upcoming services. We've let other men know that we are at the church and they're welcome to join us - at least half of our time is spent on non-music matters. Sometimes with just sit and drink coffee while having a good chat, sometimes odd jobs around the building get done, that sort of thing. No structure. We have some who join us somewhat regularly and some occasional drop-ins. We're a small parish - a bit of a struggle to stay above 20 on a Sunday morning. Tuesday evenings we'll have from two to ten, usually four or five. It works for us.

This sounds great, and as though you're really reaching out to solve the problem! Do you notice any difficulties, though? And do you know if any closer friendships have formed from this hanging out?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline genesisone

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 06:29:16 PM »
There's far too much truth in everything that has been said to this point. It is important to keep working on those relationships where even only the slightest connections exists.

Porter, keep working on your relationship with your bachelor friend. Do your best to let things develop naturally. Don't try to force something artificial into the mix. Perhaps get him to help you with a project around your house, then finish off with a sit-down time with beverage of choice. Getting him to help you with something (even if slightly contrived) avoids the awkwardness of asking "Is there anything I can do for you?" to which most of us would answer a somewhat untruthful "No".

Church relationships are important. It is true we may not live particularly close to each other, but there are ways of making it work. We don't have a formal "men's group" as such, but on Tuesday evenings (usually) we chanters - all male - meet to prepare for upcoming services. We've let other men know that we are at the church and they're welcome to join us - at least half of our time is spent on non-music matters. Sometimes with just sit and drink coffee while having a good chat, sometimes odd jobs around the building get done, that sort of thing. No structure. We have some who join us somewhat regularly and some occasional drop-ins. We're a small parish - a bit of a struggle to stay above 20 on a Sunday morning. Tuesday evenings we'll have from two to ten, usually four or five. It works for us.

This sounds great, and as though you're really reaching out to solve the problem! Do you notice any difficulties, though? And do you know if any closer friendships have formed from this hanging out?
I hope you understand that what has happened simply happened pretty much on its own. There was no plan to get anything started beyond the chanting practice. I would say that over time we have gotten to know each other well enough that we know whom we can rely on for various problems. If I'm frustrated with something at home, I can talk to ***; if it's a spiritual issue (not the "talk to your priest" kind) I can run it past @@@, etc.  I rather think others feel much the same way as I know both I and others meet privately at times. Overall, I think it has been quite healthy. Can't really think of any downsides. Weekly attendance is flexible enough that those who join us only on rare occasions aren't left out. Another positive benefit is that we have had a couple of these guys being more committed to Sunday and feast day attendance, and taking on other responsibilities around the parish. I can't say it often enough: minimal structure is better - just let it happen.

Offline Punch

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2014, 08:20:56 PM »
What is this word "friend" that you keep using.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2014, 08:39:42 PM »
^ Some people substitute the Internet for all live conversations -- not good.

Seriously, I agree 10000%.  I am noticing so much family & friends who have quit calling and way less visits the more they get entrenched into facebook.

It's changing humanity - I believe for the worse.   Though it can be handy, I believe it is harming in incredible ways that we don't fully grasp yet.

There are many situations today where invites are over email and take days for people to get back....

Even today, I tried inviting somebody out and just called them like we did in the 1980's.  Phone rang... rang... no answer.   (it was their cell and many folks no longer pick up any more).   So I didn't leave a message.
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Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 01:30:02 AM »
I could speculate that it has to do with an increasing decentralized society and the technologies we've developed to support that. We have cars that allow us to work further from home, TV and computers that allow us to bring the world to our homes rather than ever needing to leave them. Being Orthodox church may be further from home than it would be for the Protestant or Catholic. But even for the Protestant the drive to find the church that's right for "me" may mean passing by multiple neighborhood churches that could serve to unite us with those geographically close to us instead bond us to people that are to far away for frequent contact. At the same time the aforementioned information technology allows us to develop interests that are unique to ourselves because we have access. So two people on the same block who formerly would only be able to access the same information and most of that local can now develop interests that separated by continents and perhaps mutually excluded.
So in short things over which we used to bond close physically proximity and shared interests have been drastically lessened. At least this is what I would suggest.

Do you think this decentralization affects men more? Do you think it would be good to get back to proximity's being meaningful in relationships? How do we do that?
Men more? No idea.

Good to go back? It would have some advantages to be sure, or perhaps we learn to adapt.

I would like to move closer to our parish I know. But, that would pit distance between us and children's friends or my wife's best friend. I don't know. I don't have best friends any more where I used to have two. That is I still have multiple people I think I could turn to in a pinch, but not so many to hang out with. But then I think the hang out with role is taken by my immediate family. I have multiple extended family members in within an hour too though again we don't spend time hanging out much. I get along with my employees well, but they're my employees and I'm the boss.

I guess in the end I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for in a male friendship relationship at the moment. I think I will continue to find it interesting to hear what others say.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 01:34:32 AM »
Two of my 'once' close male friends no longer talk to me.  One of them was my college roommate.  The other was my neighbor.

My college roommate and his wife adopted a second daughter and became too "busy" to talk with me.

My neighbor became a conservative Republican and posted, in jest, some false comments about me on a social networking website.

I also participate in a weekly men's group although I have little if any contact with men outside the group.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2014, 03:39:50 PM »
I don't talk to any of my friends from high school or college.  I have one friend that I talk to and/or hang out with with some frequency.  It also helps that his wife and my wife get along, although it would be a stretch to say that they are friends.  I do not hang out with anyone from work as they are older than me and have families.  After work, I just want to go home and be with my wife and dogs.  Maybe have a beer and read a book.  It was so easy to make friends as a kid, but not so much now.  And I'm ok with that.  I also wished I lived closer to my parish.  I don't go to Liturgy on Sundays, so that cuts out the majority of the people I would possibly come in contact with.

Even on Facebook, I rarely post anything and my "friends" (even ones I classified as "best friends" at one point) don't communicate with me.
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Offline Papist

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 04:27:47 PM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2014, 04:31:00 PM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

I think it has more to do with compartmentalization.  For example, growing up, my neighborhood friends were different from my school friends who were different from my church friends.  People also tend to not live and work in the same place their whole life.  ISTM that it's so much easier nowadays to cut off ties with people.
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Offline WPM

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2014, 04:52:54 PM »
Seek out working relationships thru your church.

Probably other readers understand what you're advising here, but I'm too new to the Church -- can you give some details?

I've been down the exact same path ... Looking for relationships, trying to make friends and etc. It didn't seem to work out that well. Now it is just solitary monasticism
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 04:53:26 PM by WPM »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2014, 06:06:10 PM »
Seek out working relationships thru your church.

Probably other readers understand what you're advising here, but I'm too new to the Church -- can you give some details?

I've been down the exact same path ... Looking for relationships, trying to make friends and etc. It didn't seem to work out that well. Now it is just solitary monasticism

Being solitary and being a monk are two different things.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2014, 01:11:19 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.
Now we're getting some of that great Free-for-All controversy. ;)

Maybe it's a separate topic, but I will say that it seems like over the last decade or two the fear you mention, though unspoken (or maybe joked about), seems to have exploded.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2014, 01:18:18 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

Indeed. There's an Anglo-Saxon culture that seems to suggest any friendly contact between men with other men is homosexual. I witnessed this often when I was in school in my pre-teen years. I usually set the record straight by saying "It's perfectly normal in Iran!"

Many cultures show physical affection for the same sex, that's completely normal; and doesn't suggest any "gay" relationships. Like, Orthodox culture, or like Iranian or Arab cultures.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 01:21:11 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2014, 08:03:09 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

Indeed. There's an Anglo-Saxon culture that seems to suggest any friendly contact between men with other men is homosexual. I witnessed this often when I was in school in my pre-teen years. I usually set the record straight by saying "It's perfectly normal in Iran!"

Many cultures show physical affection for the same sex, that's completely normal; and doesn't suggest any "gay" relationships. Like, Orthodox culture, or like Iranian or Arab cultures.

Giving a man a hug is different from strolling down the street holding hands in the US.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 08:40:10 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

Indeed. There's an Anglo-Saxon culture that seems to suggest any friendly contact between men with other men is homosexual. I witnessed this often when I was in school in my pre-teen years. I usually set the record straight by saying "It's perfectly normal in Iran!"

Many cultures show physical affection for the same sex, that's completely normal; and doesn't suggest any "gay" relationships. Like, Orthodox culture, or like Iranian or Arab cultures.

Giving a man a hug is different from strolling down the street holding hands in the US.
Agreed,  and for my part I've never really been worried about being considered gay in my relationships with other guy despite lots of hugs.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 08:41:08 AM by Maximum Bob »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2014, 09:01:18 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

Indeed. There's an Anglo-Saxon culture that seems to suggest any friendly contact between men with other men is homosexual. I witnessed this often when I was in school in my pre-teen years. I usually set the record straight by saying "It's perfectly normal in Iran!"

Many cultures show physical affection for the same sex, that's completely normal; and doesn't suggest any "gay" relationships. Like, Orthodox culture, or like Iranian or Arab cultures.

Giving a man a hug is different from strolling down the street holding hands in the US.
Agreed,  and for my part I've never really been worried about being considered gay in my relationships with other guy despite lots of hugs.

Same here.  Hugs were never uncommon among my friends and I've had friends from different cultural backgrounds.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline vamrat

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2014, 10:14:04 AM »
Isolationist relationships probably play some role.  I remember back in school a buddy of years would get a girlfriend and then disappear off the face of the earth, get dumped then he'd be back around again, then get a new one and gone again.  Many men seem to get used to being in a relationship or being dead for all intents and purposes. 

I think hitting 21 helps with this somewhat as it opens up a new avenue for finding friends.  The bar can be a wonderful place for men to bond and build friendships.  It is also a place to meet new people.  Drunks are usually friendlier, especially if you are drunk too.  I have had a number of good intoxication-based friendships. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2014, 10:29:32 AM »
^I think for most men, for me anyway, that type of relationship is ok.  I know my friend's wife is pregnant.  We don't hang out as much as before.  To me, that's ok;  I'm not getting my feelings hurt, because he has to do what he has to do as a man.  Does it mean that I didn't wish we'd hang out and get a beer?  Not at all.  I remember in school, too when my friends would get girlfriends and stop hanging out so much.  NBD.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2014, 10:39:02 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

Indeed. There's an Anglo-Saxon culture that seems to suggest any friendly contact between men with other men is homosexual. I witnessed this often when I was in school in my pre-teen years. I usually set the record straight by saying "It's perfectly normal in Iran!"

Many cultures show physical affection for the same sex, that's completely normal; and doesn't suggest any "gay" relationships. Like, Orthodox culture, or like Iranian or Arab cultures.

Giving a man a hug is different from strolling down the street holding hands in the US.

U.S. on average, yes, but I think it depends what your circles are.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2014, 10:40:10 AM »
Isolationist relationships probably play some role.  I remember back in school a buddy of years would get a girlfriend and then disappear off the face of the earth, get dumped then he'd be back around again, then get a new one and gone again.  Many men seem to get used to being in a relationship or being dead for all intents and purposes. 

I think hitting 21 helps with this somewhat as it opens up a new avenue for finding friends.  The bar can be a wonderful place for men to bond and build friendships.  It is also a place to meet new people.  Drunks are usually friendlier, especially if you are drunk too.  I have had a number of good intoxication-based friendships. 

Hardly seems either of these examples could be considered to be of close friendships, though.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2014, 10:44:06 AM »
I sometimes wonder if the fear of appearing "gay" is what discourages men from pursuing close friendships with one another, at least here in the U.S.A.

Indeed. There's an Anglo-Saxon culture that seems to suggest any friendly contact between men with other men is homosexual. I witnessed this often when I was in school in my pre-teen years. I usually set the record straight by saying "It's perfectly normal in Iran!"

Many cultures show physical affection for the same sex, that's completely normal; and doesn't suggest any "gay" relationships. Like, Orthodox culture, or like Iranian or Arab cultures.

Giving a man a hug is different from strolling down the street holding hands in the US.

U.S. on average, yes, but I think it depends what your circles are.

Even if I had held hands with my FOB Arab friends, it would be seen as "gay" by those who knew nothing of that culture, even in my diverse high school.  Even the Arabs I knew that were born and were raised in America and knew it was normal in their parents' countries would have seen it as "gay".

What kind of "circles" are you referring to?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2014, 10:51:09 AM »
I meant the other way around -- circles in which men never hug.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2014, 01:25:21 PM »
Yeah,  there are those kinds of circles.  My circles included lots of bikers, where hugging is almost mandatory.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2014, 02:00:59 PM »
Yeah,  there are those kinds of circles.  My circles included lots of bikers, where hugging is almost mandatory.

I think it's also good to clarify what is meant by the title "friend".  Bikers I know hug each other because they consider themselves as brothers.  The few folks I call friend is because I consider them family.  There are fraternity brothers of mine that I would hug and many others I wouldn't.  In high school, I rarely hugged any of the guys I called "friends".  Personally, as I have grown a little older, the title "friend" is something rarely given or received.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Men and friendship
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2014, 05:02:38 PM »
^ Some people substitute the Internet for all live conversations -- not good.

hey thats me!
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