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Author Topic: Only one Partiarchate in the West?  (Read 579 times) Average Rating: 0
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icecreamsandwich
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« on: May 23, 2014, 10:30:31 AM »

My knowledge of Late Antiquity is rather sketchy, unfortunately, but I still can't seem to figure this one out.

How come there ended up being 4 in the East, but only Rome in the West? Yes Rome had a lot of influence, but there were several other cities that would've been important, and closer to their neighboring areas. Like Carthage for example, which was restored to a rather high level of wealth and prosperity. A city in Spain for example to serve that area. Something in the more northern areas of Gaul. If the maps posted here are to be believed, there was *some* influence in such areas around 300AD.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,58509

I hope this makes sense? 
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 10:52:27 AM »

At the time of Pentarchy was established there wasn't much of a West yet.  Most of what we now call the "West" both geographically and philosophically did not "exist" yet.  I think that if the schism had not occured you'd probably have more partriarchs in the West.  And remember the 5 is mostly symbolic anyway.  All Bishops are equal in any meaningful sense.
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 10:59:41 AM »

These are the maps you should be looking at to see your explanation:


« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 11:01:48 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 11:18:33 AM »

At the time of Pentarchy was established there wasn't much of a West yet.  Most of what we now call the "West" both geographically and philosophically did not "exist" yet.  I think that if the schism had not occured you'd probably have more partriarchs in the West.  And remember the 5 is mostly symbolic anyway.  All Bishops are equal in any meaningful sense.

Might you elaborate on there "not being much of a West yet"? After all, the empire had been split administratively just before 300 AD, and again, while it wasn't a literal split, it does help to explain the situation. Not to mention it appears that the cities in the Pentarchy (the 5) are either ecclesiastically, or administratively important, and there is a heavy emphasis on tying them to the administrative structure of the Empire which then comes back to the point that there were other cities besides Rome that were important - not *as* important, but important still.

These are the maps you should be looking at to see your explanation:



Thanks this makes a bit more sense. Still, that last map kind of confuses me. That's what, 500 AD, and even then (actually more so after the establishment of the Pentarchy) you have Rome as one of the 5. If I understand the point correctly, it's saying that by 500 AD, Rome itself and most of the Gothic kingdoms were under Arian control? IIRC Arianism in very large part died off, though once those groups adopted Nicene Christianity or got deposed.

Alternatively that the Eastern Empire was more stable through the tumult of the time?

You also have Carthage listed on that map (of course it fell later) and Toulouse (Roman Tolosa),  A lot of those cities (especially in modern day France) would have remained Christian at least until the split, and I figure would've been closer to their neighboring areas than Rome would've been.

I'm still rather lost :s
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 12:44:58 PM »

During the beginning of the final escalation of papal claims, the Bishop of Santiago de Compostela duely reminded the Pope that being the See of St. James, Santiago de Compostela was an autocephalous apostolic see on its own right. Eventually him and the see were conquered by papal reformists.


Quote
Cresconius (Bishop of Iria)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cresconius (Spanish: Cresconio) (c. 1036 – 1066) was an 11th-century bishop of Iria Flavia and Santiago de Compostela in Spain who succeeded Vistruarius.

Cresconius was a supporter of King Ferdinand I of Castile and educated Ferdinand's son, García II of Galicia and Portugal, who would later be crowned by Cresconius himself as king of Galicia, Spain.

Like his contemporary Odo of Bayeux, Cresconius was a "warrior bishop" and during a Viking invasion of Galicia, he gathered an army and defeated the invaders. He fortified Castellum Honesti ‒ a castle known today as Torres do Oeste which once stood in Catoira, Spain ‒ with the goal of blocking future invasions via the estuary, Ría de Arousa, and also built the city walls of Santiago de Compostela.

Cresconius and the Primacy of Santiago
Cresconius believed that because Santiago was the burial place of Saint James the Greater, his see naturally occupied a superior place amongst the dioceses of the West as an "apostolic see." To this end, he proclaimed himself Episcopus Iriensis et Apostolicae Sedis. However, this assumption was not supported by Rome and Pope Leo IX excommunicated him at the Council of Rheims (1049). Nevertheless, Cresconius continued using this title, and the bishops of Lugo, Dumio, Oviedo, and Oporto acknowledged his authority and primacy.

In 1060, he presided over the Council of Compostela where he prohibited the use of weapons by clerics, and also forbade that clerics be married. He opened parochial schools and fought pagan superstitions in existence even before the Roman conquest of Galicia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cresconius_(bishop_of_Iria)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 12:45:24 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 01:24:18 PM »

There were patriarchs in Aquileia and Grado
Their titles were inherited by Venice iirc
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 01:48:23 PM »

At the time of Pentarchy was established there wasn't much of a West yet.  Most of what we now call the "West" both geographically and philosophically did not "exist" yet.  I think that if the schism had not occured you'd probably have more partriarchs in the West.  And remember the 5 is mostly symbolic anyway.  All Bishops are equal in any meaningful sense.

Might you elaborate on there "not being much of a West yet"? After all, the empire had been split administratively just before 300 AD, and again, while it wasn't a literal split, it does help to explain the situation. Not to mention it appears that the cities in the Pentarchy (the 5) are either ecclesiastically, or administratively important, and there is a heavy emphasis on tying them to the administrative structure of the Empire which then comes back to the point that there were other cities besides Rome that were important - not *as* important, but important still.

These are the maps you should be looking at to see your explanation:



Thanks this makes a bit more sense. Still, that last map kind of confuses me. That's what, 500 AD, and even then (actually more so after the establishment of the Pentarchy) you have Rome as one of the 5. If I understand the point correctly, it's saying that by 500 AD, Rome itself and most of the Gothic kingdoms were under Arian control? IIRC Arianism in very large part died off, though once those groups adopted Nicene Christianity or got deposed.

Alternatively that the Eastern Empire was more stable through the tumult of the time?

You also have Carthage listed on that map (of course it fell later) and Toulouse (Roman Tolosa),  A lot of those cities (especially in modern day France) would have remained Christian at least until the split, and I figure would've been closer to their neighboring areas than Rome would've been.
Carthage and the rest of North Africa were the real cradle of the Latin patriarchate.  Tertullian became the first Latin father there, the Vetus Latina Itala, the old Latin translation of the Old Testament, seems to have been produced there, and St. Victor the first Latin speaking archbishop of Rome introduced the Latin mass from there.  And of course, it was the homeland of Augustine.

Yes, the Eastern Empire was more stable, and continued on without much change.  In the West, the vestiges of the old Roman world gravitated towards centralizing in Italy (although not really in Rome, which by then became a clump of huts around St. Peter's and the ruins of the fallen empire).
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 09:18:58 PM »

As I recall some Archbishoprics in the west bear the title of Patriarch but they were all subservient to the Patrirach of the West, The Pope of Rome. They seem to be down played later  in an effort to make the historic Patriarchates of the East less important amd to enforce the Doctrine of the Roman Pontiff.
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2014, 05:54:36 PM »

I don't know if this is strictly related, but when did the Latin culture diverge into "Vulgar Latin" and blend with the Germanic barbarians? When do we see the absolute first vestiges of early Spanish, Italian, etc.?

Particularly I always wondered how the "-us" Latin ending became "-o" in Romance.
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 07:48:48 PM »

I don't know if this is strictly related, but when did the Latin culture diverge into "Vulgar Latin" and blend with the Germanic barbarians? When do we see the absolute first vestiges of early Spanish, Italian, etc.?

Particularly I always wondered how the "-us" Latin ending became "-o" in Romance.
The dative/ablative ending was combined with the accusative -um into an oblique case, and eventually the nominative (<-us) passed out of use.

not strictly related, but here are some maps.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 07:49:20 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 09:05:28 PM »

The other Latin Patriarchates beyond the  Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem are/were:
Patriarch of Venice
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of the East Indies
Patriarch of Aquileia (extinct)
Patriarch of Grado (merged with the office of the Bishop of Castello to become the Patriarch of Venice)
Patriarch of Carthage (extinct)
Patriarch of the West Indies (extinct)
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2014, 10:40:30 PM »

The other Latin Patriarchates beyond the  Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem are/were:
Patriarch of Venice
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of the East Indies
Patriarch of Aquileia (extinct)
Patriarch of Grado (merged with the office of the Bishop of Castello to become the Patriarch of Venice)
Patriarch of Carthage (extinct)
Patriarch of the West Indies (extinct)


There also used to be Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch.
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2014, 11:09:12 PM »

The other Latin Patriarchates beyond the  Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem are/were:
Patriarch of Venice
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of the East Indies
Patriarch of Aquileia (extinct)
Patriarch of Grado (merged with the office of the Bishop of Castello to become the Patriarch of Venice)
Patriarch of Carthage (extinct)
Patriarch of the West Indies (extinct)


There also used to be Latin patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch.
not exactly the same, as they were supposed to be replacements for the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch.  during the Great Western Schism, each of the three popes had a set of these "patriarchs."
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« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2014, 12:32:15 AM »

I don't know if this is strictly related, but when did the Latin culture diverge into "Vulgar Latin" and blend with the Germanic barbarians? When do we see the absolute first vestiges of early Spanish, Italian, etc.?

Particularly I always wondered how the "-us" Latin ending became "-o" in Romance.
The dative/ablative ending was combined with the accusative -um into an oblique case, and eventually the nominative (<-us) passed out of use.

not strictly related, but here are some maps.



Dative? Ablative? What? I tried looking it up but I don't understand well, please help ;_; I'm really interested.
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2014, 07:55:49 PM »

There were patriarchs in Aquileia and Grado
Their titles were inherited by Venice iirc

Thanks!

Carthage and the rest of North Africa were the real cradle of the Latin patriarchate.  Tertullian became the first Latin father there, the Vetus Latina Itala, the old Latin translation of the Old Testament, seems to have been produced there, and St. Victor the first Latin speaking archbishop of Rome introduced the Latin mass from there.  And of course, it was the homeland of Augustine.

Yes, the Eastern Empire was more stable, and continued on without much change.  In the West, the vestiges of the old Roman world gravitated towards centralizing in Italy (although not really in Rome, which by then became a clump of huts around St. Peter's and the ruins of the fallen empire).

And there was also St. Cyprian from there, as well as some others (St. Julia comes to mind) and several councils. So I guess it sort of was a contender but then got absorbed like the other areas?

Yeah that's the thing - it seems Rome itself ended up being a lot smaller in later years and it looks like there was a need for centralized authority from the Church. Could there really have been no other city that could've competed with the influence of Rome? Aquileia was mentioned and if I remember correctly the city got sacked by the Huns.

As I recall some Archbishoprics in the west bear the title of Patriarch but they were all subservient to the Patrirach of the West, The Pope of Rome. They seem to be down played later  in an effort to make the historic Patriarchates of the East less important amd to enforce the Doctrine of the Roman Pontiff.

Which then continues to support the whole "absorbed by Rome" theory.

The other Latin Patriarchates beyond the  Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem are/were:
Patriarch of Venice
Patriarch of Lisbon
Patriarch of the East Indies
Patriarch of Aquileia (extinct)
Patriarch of Grado (merged with the office of the Bishop of Castello to become the Patriarch of Venice)
Patriarch of Carthage (extinct)
Patriarch of the West Indies (extinct)

By the looks of it most of those would've come into being rather late on, or were absorbed.

Well, thank you all. This has been really informative. Surprising, but informative nonetheless.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 08:02:31 PM by icecreamsandwich » Logged

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