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Author Topic: Gay family members  (Read 1535 times) Average Rating: 0
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Branthony
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« on: May 22, 2014, 01:07:00 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 01:10:19 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks

I don't know what you should tell your kids but these two things jumped out of me.  Your future sister in law needs to grow up and realize she's no longer going to be the most important person in your future wife's life.  She's angry that her sister found someone she loves and wants to spend her life with?  Nice!  I would have a serious conversation about that if you haven't already.  If she's not willing to accept that, frankly it's her problem.

I'm sure there are more knowledgeable and experienced people here with kids that can answer your actual question.
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 01:14:11 AM »

Easy answer - call off the wedding.

Difficult answer - there's no such thing....
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 01:19:30 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks

I don't know what you should tell your kids but these two things jumped out of me.  Your future sister in law needs to grow up and realize she's no longer going to be the most important person in your future wife's life.  She's angry that her sister found someone she loves and wants to spend her life with?  Nice!  I would have a serious conversation about that if you haven't already.  If she's not willing to accept that, frankly it's her problem.

I'm sure there are more knowledgeable and experienced people here with kids that can answer your actual question.

I would add to this that your fiancee also needs to put her foot down against her domineering sister, and quickly, or your married life will be miserable. If your fiancee isn't willing to do this, calling off the wedding might be the only option.

What God has joined, let no man
(or, indeed, woman) separate. Read Ephesians 5:20-33, it's the epistle used at every Orthodox wedding.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 01:23:10 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 01:23:09 AM »

Like I said, we're dealing with that, the next time the statement is made she's going to have a talk about it, me and my wife talked about it and she realizes that she can't let that statement pass with out being addressed.
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2014, 01:42:25 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks

"A man shall leave his father and mother (and brothers and sisters) and cling to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh."  Honestly, this is just an immature narcissism from your future sister-in-law.  I have dealt with this whole "you are taking him/her from me" many times on a family level and as a priest.  She probably will never like you, so don't try to accomodate the point, but don't draw lines in the sand before you have a stick (i.e. before you are married to your wife).  I have a sister-in-law who has a similar problem.  I don't usually share things like this, but since I was just informed about this a few hours ago, it seems exactly what you are talking about.  They live in a state where "gay marriage" was just legalized.  My sister in law does not want to bring her two young sons to her husband's sister's gay wedding.  This is now causing a quick problem in the marriage.  You (plural, you and your fiancee) have to nip it in the bud before it sprouts.  You (singular) have no rapport so it is your wife-to-be's unpleasant job to set boundaries.  Understand that for a narcissist, they will "blame" the "other person" so that they can justify continuing in a relationship with their sibling.  That will just have to be a sacrifice that you make for your wife if need be.  However, neither of you can sacrifice your children on that altar, and that is a unanimous decision that must be made beforehand.      

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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 01:54:50 AM »

The church doesn't perform weddings between same sex partners.

Having sex outside of marriage is a sin.

Chances are, your child will be exposed to people having obviously sexual relationships outside of marriage unless you live under a rock.

Don't approach this subject as taboo, don't try and make homosexual sex outside of marriage as somehow more sinful than any other sex outside of marriage. Kids are more intuitive that you could imagine. Ultimately, we shouldn't be seeking things to judge other people with. Sex and sexuality don't need to be this secret subject. You don't have to explain every intricate detail of homosexuality, and you don't have to explain every aspect of heterosexuality either. Encourage conversation, don't shut it down. Explain as much as your child can understand in that moment.

Think of it like this advertisement about extra virgin olive oil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd3oYFS9g9I&feature=kp

The child in that video wasn't even THINKING about sex and sexuality. The mother ended up giving far more information than she needed to because she didn't ask enough questions to figure out what the child was really asking. Context is everything. There is a fairly good chance that if your child is raised around homosexuality that they won't really ask many questions. Even if they do, you could find a way to answer that maintains love and respect for your sister-in-law.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 02:00:21 AM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 02:11:03 AM »

I'd define it in terms of 'secular vs religious' in other words. Say, 'this is a free society, therefore they are allowed to do it' and add later, 'but we don't do it because we do not believe in having same sex relationships' etc.

Something that defines the boundary between Church and State on same sex relationships.
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 03:22:38 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old. Giving them a lecture about it often just makes it worse. Chances are your kids will constantly be exposed to fornication--heck, I was born from it and attended my parents' wedding when I was 2--but most parents don't lecture them about that. Just tell them that some people like the same sex instead of the opposite sex and that it's not the best thing to do because God forbids it. Same with fornication. Try not to make it such a big deal. My parents gave me a big homosexuality lecture growing up and I hated it.

I'm not saying you do it, but you want to know what bothers me? Why do some parents single out the sins of other people so much to their children (ie, like homosexuality) and yet blatantly ignore their own sins? Why don't you tell your children about all the times you fornicated in high-school and smoked your brains out with pot in college? Or tell them why you divorced? I think the greatest thing a parent can do is be honest with their kids. I have a lot of problems with my parents, but one thing I highly appreciate about them is that they never lied to me but were always honest, even when it made them look bad and meant dispelling their own sins.
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 09:09:20 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old. Giving them a lecture about it often just makes it worse.

So, you've never been around kids.  They are going to ask why is aunt so and so sucking face with a girl or why doesn't aunt so and so have a boyfriend/husband.  Kids ask questions because they're kids.

I'd just let your future wife handle this one because by the sounds of it, your future in law is going to wait for you to say anything and pounce.
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 09:27:32 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks
My wife and I have several sets of twins in our families, so I very much understand the very close bond that twins have with each other.  My mom is a twin and she and my aunt have always and will always be very close.  Your fiance will clearly have mixed feeling about all this because she has you that she loves and her sister who is in one sense also a soulmate and she does not want to betray either one. What are your fiance's beliefs in regards to her sister's sexuality? Are you planning on living in close proximity to this sister after marriage?

In regards to the children thing, my kids are 5 and 7.  It is not unusual for them to see things that are contrary to how we teach them.  When they ask about such things, we just tell them that not everyone holds to the same values that we do, but it is important to show respect to everyone regardless if we agree with how they live their lives. Consistency with children is really the biggest thing.  If they see you disrespecting others, they will follow your lead. If you kind to those who might not reciprocate, your children will learn that. With children, it is much more important that you model a proper lifestyle than what you tell them. What you tell them goes in one ear and out the other.
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 09:34:34 AM »

You say this: "They're gay." Then you get on with your life.

I have gay relatives. Hasn't hurt me one bit.
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 09:53:59 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks
It would be good if you had marriage counseling before getting married.  The counselor can work with you and your wife with setting boundaries.  That will be something you and your wife will learn, be it a gay twin sister or anything else.
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 09:59:43 AM »

Everybidy has gay relatives. Well except the Romanians. There even men with a passion for making elaborate cakes are still thought of as straight.
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« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 10:07:49 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks
It would be good if you had marriage counseling before getting married.  The counselor can work with you and your wife with setting boundaries.  That will be something you and your wife will learn, be it a gay twin sister or anything else.
"I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin" Yes, marriage does.  Her failure to see that belies this need for the redefinition of marriage (I'm guessing, but somehow I won't be surprised if she is in full support of that as "a human right" "equality" and all that).
Your wife to be-and before she becomes-have to set some boundaries on this.  Iron clad ones, because it seems the sister has already declared war on you.  Your wife is going to have to chose a side, and if it is not you, don't interject yourself into a civil war.

What does your fiancee think on the issue?  I take it that your objection is based on religion (besides, or, better yet, as reality).

I do take it that you would have some explaining to do if your three year old asked "why does auntie's boyfriend live with her when they aren't married."
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:10:26 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 10:08:49 AM »

You say this: "They're gay." Then you get on with your life.

I have gay relatives. Hasn't hurt me one bit.
evidently just warped your views.
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« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 10:11:11 AM »

Everybidy has gay relatives. Well except the Romanians. There even men with a passion for making elaborate cakes are still thought of as straight.
Lesbians dont' count?
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« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 10:14:55 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
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« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2014, 10:17:59 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks

"A man shall leave his father and mother (and brothers and sisters) and cling to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh."  Honestly, this is just an immature narcissism from your future sister-in-law.  I have dealt with this whole "you are taking him/her from me" many times on a family level and as a priest.  She probably will never like you, so don't try to accomodate the point, but don't draw lines in the sand before you have a stick (i.e. before you are married to your wife).  I have a sister-in-law who has a similar problem.  I don't usually share things like this, but since I was just informed about this a few hours ago, it seems exactly what you are talking about.  They live in a state where "gay marriage" was just legalized.  My sister in law does not want to bring her two young sons to her husband's sister's gay wedding.  This is now causing a quick problem in the marriage.  You (plural, you and your fiancee) have to nip it in the bud before it sprouts.  You (singular) have no rapport so it is your wife-to-be's unpleasant job to set boundaries.  Understand that for a narcissist, they will "blame" the "other person" so that they can justify continuing in a relationship with their sibling.  That will just have to be a sacrifice that you make for your wife if need be.  However, neither of you can sacrifice your children on that altar, and that is a unanimous decision that must be made beforehand.      
and before the wedding, Father.  That line should be drawn in cement: the engagement is stick enough.

I found out 5 months after marriage that my wife was self medicating with narcotics.  If I had know that year before, there would have been no wedding.  Not exactly the same, but if a problem of such magnitude (and the situation described thus seems to be: how close does the fiancee feel to the sister?) manifests itself, it had to be cured before malignancy.
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« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2014, 10:20:51 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:22:49 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2014, 10:25:31 AM »

I'd define it in terms of 'secular vs religious' in other words. Say, 'this is a free society, therefore they are allowed to do it' and add later, 'but we don't do it because we do not believe in having same sex relationships' etc.

Something that defines the boundary between Church and State on same sex relationships.
until they go to school and the state cures them of what the Church teaches.
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2014, 10:25:41 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.
Huh not exactly the best example. Obvious things vary by family and educations. So there are no obvious things
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2014, 10:26:57 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

That's just my experience. I didn't see anything strange in the fact that two people of same sex were living together.
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2014, 10:29:30 AM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2014, 10:32:08 AM »

The church doesn't perform weddings between same sex partners.

Having sex outside of marriage is a sin.

Chances are, your child will be exposed to people having obviously sexual relationships outside of marriage unless you live under a rock.

Don't approach this subject as taboo, don't try and make homosexual sex outside of marriage as somehow more sinful than any other sex outside of marriage. Kids are more intuitive that you could imagine. Ultimately, we shouldn't be seeking things to judge other people with. Sex and sexuality don't need to be this secret subject. You don't have to explain every intricate detail of homosexuality, and you don't have to explain every aspect of heterosexuality either. Encourage conversation, don't shut it down. Explain as much as your child can understand in that moment.

Think of it like this advertisement about extra virgin olive oil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd3oYFS9g9I&feature=kp

The child in that video wasn't even THINKING about sex and sexuality. The mother ended up giving far more information than she needed to because she didn't ask enough questions to figure out what the child was really asking. Context is everything. There is a fairly good chance that if your child is raised around homosexuality that they won't really ask many questions. Even if they do, you could find a way to answer that maintains love and respect for your sister-in-law.
LOL.  I see the Vatican would approve of the video.  It actually is pretty good for answering the question the girl didn't ask.  And for that matter, this issue (forcing jigsaw puzzle pieces together never works).
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 10:33:28 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

I suppose your point is that he never explicitly learned what marriage was from any source, but is simply expressing an innate knowledge of what natural marriage is? This would only be convincing if we didn't believe that he had learned what marriage was from you and his religious upbringing. I certainly agree that marriage between two men or two women is not real marriage, but there are several reports of children brought up by same-sex couples who find it completely normal and unobjectionable, which certainly argues for nurture over nature when it comes to attitudes towards homosexuality and gay marriage.
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 10:35:07 AM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....

I agree.

Are the twins identical or fraternal (sororal?)?
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 10:35:43 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

That's just my experience. I didn't see anything strange in the fact that two people of same sex were living together.
I've known children that don't see anything strange with the idea of marrying animals.

I have known children of young age seeing something wrong with people not married living together (where of course, marriage can be seen and experienced).  They are far ahead of many, many adults.
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 10:37:45 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

That's just my experience. I didn't see anything strange in the fact that two people of same sex were living together.
I've known children that don't see anything strange with the idea of marrying animals.

I have known children of young age seeing something wrong with people not married living together (where of course, marriage can be seen and experienced).  They are far ahead of many, many adults.

Then you just prove his point. It's all about what you learn from your elders, which kind of undermines whatever point you were trying to make with that anecdote about your child. He was only expressing what he learned from you and doesn't add any new insight.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2014, 10:41:19 AM »

You seem to have some axe to grind about the issue but I have no slightest idea what it is. Not that I particularly care either. I don't wish to start yet another debate about homosexuality. Just saying to the OP that his kids won't probably notice that his wife's sister is this or that. All they care is that their parents won't let them do anything fun when they drink coffee with their boring relatives.
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2014, 10:42:34 AM »

I think the OP just wanted some input on what to say to his kids if they notice.
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2014, 10:47:30 AM »

I think the OP just wanted some input on what to say to his kids if they notice.
I happened to notice animals mating at a very early age. I even drew at kindergarten a rooster mounting a hen. The teacher laughed at it and so did my father and told me to change drawing subjects. But they didn't tell me why.  at 5 I wasn't aware of what was going on there. They told me you'll find out once you grow up.
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 10:49:14 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

I suppose your point is that he never explicitly learned what marriage was from any source, but is simply expressing an innate knowledge of what natural marriage is? This would only be convincing if we didn't believe that he had learned what marriage was from you and his religious upbringing.
Well, duh.

God doesn't give you children just to leave them off to their own devices, and in my case I had/have had to fight the courts for that right which even the law pays lip service to as a natural right and responsibility.  Either I could have raised them (he has a brother) or the village of idiots could.  I chose me.

It is innate what natural marriage is.  It was the first conversation on homosexuality, although unknown to him he had met homosexuals before (the absence of the partner probably accounts for the absence of a question before them).  The topic did not come up again for years.
I certainly agree that marriage between two men or two women is not real marriage, but there are several reports of children brought up by same-sex couples who find it completely normal and unobjectionable, which certainly argues for nurture over nature when it comes to attitudes towards homosexuality and gay marriage.
There was a famous case of a child kidnapping/molestion case in Belgium: when the authorities found the girl in the hole in the ground that the monster kept here,  they asked her what she was doing there, not expecting the reply "I live here."
Such examples can be multiplied ad infinitum. Almost as many are the stories of those children raised in the situation you describe, who came to realize it was sick (sort of like how Moon Unit Zappa learned that not all kids had to listen to their parents sexual exploits on end).
There's a reason why the agenda is demanding sex education (among other things) in kindergarten. Get 'em young.
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 10:49:55 AM »

I think the OP just wanted some input on what to say to his kids if they notice.
I happened to notice animals mating at a very early age. I even drew at kindergarten a rooster mounting a hen. The teacher laughed at it and so did my father and told me to change drawing subjects. But they didn't tell me why.  at 5 I wasn't aware of what was going on there. They told me you'll find out once you grow up.
LOL. and evidently you still haven't.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 10:53:49 AM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....
since the OP brought this issue up, it would seem that this topic has been brought up as the breach that she is going to attack through "your husband is a such a bigot...."  It works very well for bullies of the gay agenda.

The sister is already an enemy. She has declared war.  She isn't going to wait for him to attack back.  So what she says when her sister has that talk on her comment will tell which way to go.

If that talk doesn't take place, head for the door.
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 11:00:58 AM »

actually....based on what the poster has said...the focus of the 'ememy' is more 'being taken away from the sister'


that part....has NOTHING to do with the gay issue..or agenda......period.

That has to do with the percieved loss of a lifelong companion and best friend, to an outside relationship.



Our intrepid poster has asked about the gay issue, and you have been more than willing to jump on that bandwagon with your pitchfork and torch....

BUT ignore the bigger issue.....the sister is not feeling resentment over the gay issue at all....as they clearly have not yet dealt with it......


its about her feeling like her Twin is being taken from her...that is a much more serious issue emotionally...and needs to be worked out between the twins.

It wouldnt matter -who- the sister was attracted to.....this twin-ness and the issues it raises, would create similar issues even if she was hetero.
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 11:01:58 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

That's just my experience. I didn't see anything strange in the fact that two people of same sex were living together.
I've known children that don't see anything strange with the idea of marrying animals.

I have known children of young age seeing something wrong with people not married living together (where of course, marriage can be seen and experienced).  They are far ahead of many, many adults.

Then you just prove his point. It's all about what you learn from your elders, which kind of undermines whatever point you were trying to make with that anecdote about your child. He was only expressing what he learned from you and doesn't add any new insight.
au contraire.  We hadn't even discussed sex yet (that came soon after, in unrelated circumstances), so we can't even chalk it up to basic biology.  With only the minimum of facts, he deduced the right conclusion.

It's not rocket science: if a child is raised in a house where he is beaten, the boyfriend beats mommy etc.  he's got a good likelihood to think that violence is normal.  Although it isn't.
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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2014, 11:05:06 AM »

OK, this is the deal. me and my wife will be living in the south, in the bible belt, so no matter what I say about it or don't say about homosexuality they will learn it is a sin because it is talked about a lot and in a negative way. Also my wife's sister is very outspoken, she's a feminist and can't wait for someone to say something she can even confuse as an insult to that so she can jump down there throat, my wife included. a few weeks ago she told me she was "meeting another lady" she gave me no context so for all I knew she was meeting someone for a car loan or something when I asked her why she was meeting a lady she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!" all I asked was why she was meeting a lady and she got angry so if my child says anything at all close to gay is bad it will be taken as an insult and as I am already the bad guy I will surly be the one that set this insult in motion in her eyes. If my children ask me anything about homosexuality I have a duty to explain that it's a sin, so I can already hear a child's voice saying to my future sister in law "daddy said that being gay is a sin". this will not help the already bad attitude my future sister in law has toward me. That is the deal, How do I both teach my children that homosexuality is a sin but that there aunt also must be treated with love and respect? How do I teach them this with out them dropping a bomb on there aunt that I will surely be blamed for?
Thanks again everyone
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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2014, 11:07:43 AM »

The level of discourse here disguised as "advice" is somewhere above the National Enquirer and below Chinese fortune cookies.
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2014, 11:08:38 AM »

I think the OP just wanted some input on what to say to his kids if they notice.
I happened to notice animals mating at a very early age. I even drew at kindergarten a rooster mounting a hen. The teacher laughed at it and so did my father and told me to change drawing subjects. But they didn't tell me why.  at 5 I wasn't aware of what was going on there. They told me you'll find out once you grow up.
LOL. and evidently you still haven't.
I'm sure I did find out even more they'd have though it's good to know . I found out among other things that with proper implements even the hen can be on top of the roisters.
Plus we also had two make a bits that were copulating like there was no tomorrow. One learns things on a farm.
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2014, 11:09:48 AM »

actually....based on what the poster has said...the focus of the 'ememy' is more 'being taken away from the sister'


that part....has NOTHING to do with the gay issue..or agenda......period.
Did you read the title?

That has to do with the percieved loss of a lifelong companion and best friend, to an outside relationship.

Our intrepid poster has asked about the gay issue, and you have been more than willing to jump on that bandwagon with your pitchfork and torch....
our intrepid poster told us that the sister brought out her pitchfork and torch, and the bandwagon she was going to run him over with.

Hence the title.
BUT ignore the bigger issue.....
I'm just dealing with the issue the OP brought up.  Are you?

the sister is not feeling resentment over the gay issue at all....as they clearly have not yet dealt with it......
and they should deal with it. Beforehand.

its about her feeling like her Twin is being taken from her...that is a much more serious issue emotionally...and needs to be worked out between the twins.
before one of them gets married.
It wouldnt matter -who- the sister was attracted to.....this twin-ness and the issues it raises, would create similar issues even if she was hetero.
The title isn't "Overly Attached Family members."
Did you read my post?  To the end?

I won't speculate further, until the OP clarifies.

I see now that he has:
OK, this is the deal. me and my wife will be living in the south, in the bible belt, so no matter what I say about it or don't say about homosexuality they will learn it is a sin because it is talked about a lot and in a negative way. Also my wife's sister is very outspoken, she's a feminist and can't wait for someone to say something she can even confuse as an insult to that so she can jump down there throat, my wife included. a few weeks ago she told me she was "meeting another lady" she gave me no context so for all I knew she was meeting someone for a car loan or something when I asked her why she was meeting a lady she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!" all I asked was why she was meeting a lady and she got angry so if my child says anything at all close to gay is bad it will be taken as an insult and as I am already the bad guy I will surly be the one that set this insult in motion in her eyes. If my children ask me anything about homosexuality I have a duty to explain that it's a sin, so I can already hear a child's voice saying to my future sister in law "daddy said that being gay is a sin". this will not help the already bad attitude my future sister in law has toward me. That is the deal, How do I both teach my children that homosexuality is a sin but that there aunt also must be treated with love and respect? How do I teach them this with out them dropping a bomb on there aunt that I will surely be blamed for?
Thanks again everyone
needless to say, no surprise.  At least not to me.

I would suggest some conciliary comments, but I'll skip that because I think you're going to eventually have to lay down the law and simply state that you're sorry she takes that as an insult, but you are raising your children with your Church's values and not with the values of her lesbian feminism. Which raises the question, what if your fiancee has to write her sister off, because she can not sign on as she demands?

As for talking to the children about auntie, by the time that comes up it is almost assured that you are going to have had to discipline your children for something, and you can refer back to that.  You didn't hate them when they did something bad, and you don't hate auntie either.

Auntie will take that as a bomb, but that's auntie's problem, not yours.  Just make sure it isn't your fiancee/their mother's.
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2014, 11:10:58 AM »

actually....based on what the poster has said...the focus of the 'ememy' is more 'being taken away from the sister'


that part....has NOTHING to do with the gay issue..or agenda......period.

That has to do with the percieved loss of a lifelong companion and best friend, to an outside relationship.



Our intrepid poster has asked about the gay issue, and you have been more than willing to jump on that bandwagon with your pitchfork and torch....

BUT ignore the bigger issue.....the sister is not feeling resentment over the gay issue at all....as they clearly have not yet dealt with it......


its about her feeling like her Twin is being taken from her...that is a much more serious issue emotionally...and needs to be worked out between the twins.

It wouldnt matter -who- the sister was attracted to.....this twin-ness and the issues it raises, would create similar issues even if she was hetero.


on that issue, it's being handled, when the "does he know I will always be more important than him, nothing trumps twin" statement was made my wife was a bit shocked, she had heard her say it before but only thought it was a joke, now that she knows her sister was serious she was to surprised to say something then, since the statement was made she has not seen her sister for a long enough time to have such a serious talk. there also may be some point of making excuses to not have the talk on my wife's part because she knows her sister will be angry at the end of the conversation, it isn't uncommon to want to put off things that you know are going to be difficult. however my wife does realize that this talk must take place and so I have no doubt that it will take place. But she also wants to have a good relationship with all of her family and so we don't want to drop any more bombs on this relationship. and my wife also has no idea how to handle this gay issue either.
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2014, 11:11:39 AM »

I think the OP just wanted some input on what to say to his kids if they notice.
I happened to notice animals mating at a very early age. I even drew at kindergarten a rooster mounting a hen. The teacher laughed at it and so did my father and told me to change drawing subjects. But they didn't tell me why.  at 5 I wasn't aware of what was going on there. They told me you'll find out once you grow up.
LOL. and evidently you still haven't.
I'm sure I did find out even more they'd have though it's good to know . I found out among other things that with proper implements even the hen can be on top of the roisters.
to what purpose?
Plus we also had two make a bits that were copulating like there was no tomorrow. One learns things on a farm.
did you have pigs too?  I hear that they are quite entertaining.  My former sister-in-law's father used to charge admission.
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2014, 11:12:38 AM »

... she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"

What about if you had simply said, "I don't have a problem with you. I love you because you are my future wife's sister, and she loves you. We can discuss my religious beliefs later, if you want. Just let me know when is a good time for you."

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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2014, 11:13:35 AM »

actually....based on what the poster has said...the focus of the 'ememy' is more 'being taken away from the sister'


that part....has NOTHING to do with the gay issue..or agenda......period.

That has to do with the percieved loss of a lifelong companion and best friend, to an outside relationship.



Our intrepid poster has asked about the gay issue, and you have been more than willing to jump on that bandwagon with your pitchfork and torch....

BUT ignore the bigger issue.....the sister is not feeling resentment over the gay issue at all....as they clearly have not yet dealt with it......


its about her feeling like her Twin is being taken from her...that is a much more serious issue emotionally...and needs to be worked out between the twins.

It wouldnt matter -who- the sister was attracted to.....this twin-ness and the issues it raises, would create similar issues even if she was hetero.


on that issue, it's being handled, when the "does he know I will always be more important than him, nothing trumps twin" statement was made my wife was a bit shocked, she had heard her say it before but only thought it was a joke, now that she knows her sister was serious she was to surprised to say something then, since the statement was made she has not seen her sister for a long enough time to have such a serious talk. there also may be some point of making excuses to not have the talk on my wife's part because she knows her sister will be angry at the end of the conversation, it isn't uncommon to want to put off things that you know are going to be difficult. however my wife does realize that this talk must take place and so I have no doubt that it will take place. But she also wants to have a good relationship with all of her family and so we don't want to drop any more bombs on this relationship. and my wife also has no idea how to handle this gay issue either.
how soon is the wedding date?

had the "gay issue" come up before with your fiancee (and not just with you)?
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2014, 11:14:34 AM »

... she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"

What about if you had simply said, "I don't have a problem with you. I love you because you are my future wife's sister, and she loves you. We can discuss my religious beliefs later, if you want. Just let me know when is a good time for you."



no I told her that there was no context to her statement and it had nothing to do with her sexuality. she calmed down after I explained that but all I'm saying is her finger is on the trigger ready to fire.
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2014, 11:19:21 AM »


how soon is the wedding date?

had the "gay issue" come up before with your fiancee (and not just with you)?
[/quote]
 

the wedding is September 1st so only 3 months away, and I don't think so this is definitely a weapon she's using to show how awful I am the only thing is she doesn't realize that my wife has the same feelings on the matter as I do. My future wife and I are quite compatible and have much the same beliefs but I guess that last part is expected since we are both Orthodox, however the sister isn't, the sister isn't really a church goer she is one of those I'm a christian but I do what I want and don't go to church but I believe he's there kind of people.   
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2014, 11:21:17 AM »

OK, this is the deal. me and my wife will be living in the south, in the bible belt, so no matter what I say about it or don't say about homosexuality they will learn it is a sin because it is talked about a lot and in a negative way. Also my wife's sister is very outspoken, she's a feminist and can't wait for someone to say something she can even confuse as an insult to that so she can jump down there throat, my wife included. a few weeks ago she told me she was "meeting another lady" she gave me no context so for all I knew she was meeting someone for a car loan or something when I asked her why she was meeting a lady she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!" all I asked was why she was meeting a lady and she got angry so if my child says anything at all close to gay is bad it will be taken as an insult and as I am already the bad guy I will surly be the one that set this insult in motion in her eyes. If my children ask me anything about homosexuality I have a duty to explain that it's a sin, so I can already hear a child's voice saying to my future sister in law "daddy said that being gay is a sin". this will not help the already bad attitude my future sister in law has toward me. That is the deal, How do I both teach my children that homosexuality is a sin but that there aunt also must be treated with love and respect? How do I teach them this with out them dropping a bomb on there aunt that I will surely be blamed for?
Thanks again everyone
Please ignore the crazy ranters who are diverging into the gay marriage debate again.  Roll Eyes

The best way to teach your kids is to just be a good example.  We have many people in our family that live very different lifestyles than what we do. When we are around them, we go out of our way to be as respectful to them as possible. We do not discuss their proclivities (at least not around our children, I do confess to some sarcastic comments when it is just my wife and me). The more important lesson for your children is respect and love for others. If the "gay question" comes up, you explain to them what the Church teaches. You don't need to tell them that "Aunt Jane is a sinner because she likes girls", you just tell them that the Church and the Bible teaches that a Mommy and a Daddy together is the best way to be obedient to God. Most kids are not going to run to someone and tell them that they are a sinner unless you model that in your own lives.  Sure, they will say some embarassing things, all kids do. Obviously your sister-in-law knows your position, so it wouldn't be a suprise even if your child did say something.

At this stage, the most important things I can recommend is: first, make sure that you and your (future) wife are on the same page and are willing to provide a united front regardless of who is arguing with you. Children and marriages need stability. Second, it sounds as if your future sister-in-law is scared because she is alone and she is losing the sister that she has probably confided in since they were babies. Perhaps it would be beneficial for the three of you to sit down (or four if she wants to bring her "friend"), and just tell her that both of you love her and will be there for her even after the marriage.
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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2014, 11:24:18 AM »

... she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"

What about if you had simply said, "I don't have a problem with you. I love you because you are my future wife's sister, and she loves you. We can discuss my religious beliefs later, if you want. Just let me know when is a good time for you."
Was there a reason why you had to ask the nature of the business with the "lady"?  Don't ask questions you do not want answered.
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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2014, 11:27:14 AM »

... she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"

What about if you had simply said, "I don't have a problem with you. I love you because you are my future wife's sister, and she loves you. We can discuss my religious beliefs later, if you want. Just let me know when is a good time for you."
Was there a reason why you had to ask the nature of the business with the "lady"?  Don't ask questions you do not want answered.
It was an example Isa, don't be deliberately obtuse.
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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2014, 11:28:59 AM »

OK, this is the deal. me and my wife will be living in the south, in the bible belt, so no matter what I say about it or don't say about homosexuality they will learn it is a sin because it is talked about a lot and in a negative way. Also my wife's sister is very outspoken, she's a feminist and can't wait for someone to say something she can even confuse as an insult to that so she can jump down there throat, my wife included. a few weeks ago she told me she was "meeting another lady" she gave me no context so for all I knew she was meeting someone for a car loan or something when I asked her why she was meeting a lady she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!" all I asked was why she was meeting a lady and she got angry so if my child says anything at all close to gay is bad it will be taken as an insult and as I am already the bad guy I will surly be the one that set this insult in motion in her eyes. If my children ask me anything about homosexuality I have a duty to explain that it's a sin, so I can already hear a child's voice saying to my future sister in law "daddy said that being gay is a sin". this will not help the already bad attitude my future sister in law has toward me. That is the deal, How do I both teach my children that homosexuality is a sin but that there aunt also must be treated with love and respect? How do I teach them this with out them dropping a bomb on there aunt that I will surely be blamed for?
Thanks again everyone
Please ignore the crazy ranters who are diverging into the gay marriage debate again.  Roll Eyes

The best way to teach your kids is to just be a good example.  We have many people in our family that live very different lifestyles than what we do. When we are around them, we go out of our way to be as respectful to them as possible. We do not discuss their proclivities (at least not around our children, I do confess to some sarcastic comments when it is just my wife and me). The more important lesson for your children is respect and love for others. If the "gay question" comes up, you explain to them what the Church teaches. You don't need to tell them that "Aunt Jane is a sinner because she likes girls", you just tell them that the Church and the Bible teaches that a Mommy and a Daddy together is the best way to be obedient to God. Most kids are not going to run to someone and tell them that they are a sinner unless you model that in your own lives.  Sure, they will say some embarassing things, all kids do. Obviously your sister-in-law knows your position, so it wouldn't be a suprise even if your child did say something.

At this stage, the most important things I can recommend is: first, make sure that you and your (future) wife are on the same page and are willing to provide a united front regardless of who is arguing with you. Children and marriages need stability. Second, it sounds as if your future sister-in-law is scared because she is alone and she is losing the sister that she has probably confided in since they were babies. Perhaps it would be beneficial for the three of you to sit down (or four if she wants to bring her "friend"), and just tell her that both of you love her and will be there for her even after the marriage.
You shouldn't tell them "Aunt Jane is a sinner because she likes girls"-if you have to say anything close to it, be correct "Aunt Jane is sinning in what she does with someone she is not married to."
The rest is basically fine, but the foursome might need a fifth to referee.
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« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2014, 11:32:19 AM »

... she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"

What about if you had simply said, "I don't have a problem with you. I love you because you are my future wife's sister, and she loves you. We can discuss my religious beliefs later, if you want. Just let me know when is a good time for you."
Was there a reason why you had to ask the nature of the business with the "lady"?  Don't ask questions you do not want answered.
It was an example Isa, don't be deliberately obtuse.
no, it was an anecdote.
a few weeks ago she told me she was "meeting another lady" she gave me no context so for all I knew she was meeting someone for a car loan or something when I asked her why she was meeting a lady she jumped on me...
she calmed down after I explained that but all I'm saying is her finger is on the trigger ready to fire.
did you have a point, Trisagion?
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« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2014, 11:35:07 AM »

My point was, he is looking for advice on the over-all situation, not second guessed on every question or statement that he says to her.
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« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2014, 11:39:49 AM »

My point was, he is looking for advice on the over-all situation, not second guessed on every question or statement that he says to her.
cure the disease, not just treat the symptoms.
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« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2014, 11:48:20 AM »

how soon is the wedding date?

had the "gay issue" come up before with your fiancee (and not just with you)?
 

the wedding is September 1st so only 3 months away, and I don't think so this is definitely a weapon she's using to show how awful I am the only thing is she doesn't realize that my wife has the same feelings on the matter as I do. My future wife and I are quite compatible and have much the same beliefs but I guess that last part is expected since we are both Orthodox, however the sister isn't, the sister isn't really a church goer she is one of those I'm a christian but I do what I want and don't go to church but I believe he's there kind of people.   
If she has the same beliefs (and I hope it is belief, not "feelings") as you, and the sister thinks the same (i.e. her sister agrees with her), it would seem to indicate that they are not as close/in sync as the sister thinks.
I don't doubt your word, but I have only your word to go on.  Be VERY sure of it.

If it is as you say, you and your wife to be should be prepared if the sister cuts you off: many such as you describe her can't handle not being judged on their lifestyle by those who do not approve of it.  Too much cognitive dissonance I suppose.  Hence the need to make you into a monster.  It fits the narrative better.

It would be proof positive that your fiancee doesn't approve of the lifestyle but loves her sister, but as you say, the sister is unaware of the disapproval. It is very likely she won't take it as proof once that fact is revealed to her.
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« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2014, 11:54:53 AM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

That's just my experience. I didn't see anything strange in the fact that two people of same sex were living together.
I've known children that don't see anything strange with the idea of marrying animals.

I have known children of young age seeing something wrong with people not married living together (where of course, marriage can be seen and experienced).  They are far ahead of many, many adults.

Then you just prove his point. It's all about what you learn from your elders, which kind of undermines whatever point you were trying to make with that anecdote about your child. He was only expressing what he learned from you and doesn't add any new insight.
au contraire.  We hadn't even discussed sex yet (that came soon after, in unrelated circumstances), so we can't even chalk it up to basic biology.  With only the minimum of facts, he deduced the right conclusion.

It's not rocket science: if a child is raised in a house where he is beaten, the boyfriend beats mommy etc.  he's got a good likelihood to think that violence is normal.  Although it isn't.

Well we'd need to know what "facts" he was exposed to in order to say anything useful about his conclusions. He could simply have never encountered a same-sex couple and reasonably inferred from the couples he has known that they are "supposed" to be opposite-sex couples. But that only demonstrates his powers of induction and doesn't provide evidence for innate knowledge of what is "natural" or "unnatural" marriage, since it appears from the evidence so far that there is no innate knowledge and one's attitude is dependent on one's cultural upbringing.

It would certainly make your argument that gay marriage is unnatural a lot more convincing if we could show that, without exposure to any input that could bias him in one way or another, he still concluded that gay marriage was wrong or unnatural. It would show that the conservatives are indeed on the side of nature and it is the liberals who are fighting against what's natural. But so far it looks like attitudes towards sexuality are culturally contingent, and it's harder to argue that one's own cultural views are inherently superior to another's without some externally based value system like "natural law": all you have are arbitrary cultural prejudices.

Basically your anecdote only convinces those who are already predisposed to agree with you, and I never got the point of preaching to the choir.
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« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2014, 12:13:10 PM »

My point was, he is looking for advice on the over-all situation, not second guessed on every question or statement that he says to her.

Just for the record, Your Honor, and ladies and gentlemen of the court, I was not second guessing his response, but rather suggesting an attitude or response to be used in the future.
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« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2014, 12:19:42 PM »

No kid is going to ask you "why does X have an X instead of a Y?" That's a parenting myth. Most kids are at least aware of the existence of homosexuality by the time they are 8-12 years old.

This. One of my female relatives has had a girlfriend/wife/partner/something (don't know what it is in English) as long as I remember. It never occurred to me that there was anything strange in it. She just happened to live with a woman. Kids don't think that kind of things.
au contraire.

When the San Fran fiasco on wedding licenses was going on, my son (at the time 6) asked me "what are they doing"

"They think they are getting married."

He shook his head with a perplexed look.  "They can't be married.  They're two boys."

Out of the mouths of babes.  Some things are just that obvious, not matter how much people want to cover their eyes to it.

btw, I've known numerous cases of gay "couples" where adults didn't put two and two together as to what was going on.

That's just my experience. I didn't see anything strange in the fact that two people of same sex were living together.
I've known children that don't see anything strange with the idea of marrying animals.

I have known children of young age seeing something wrong with people not married living together (where of course, marriage can be seen and experienced).  They are far ahead of many, many adults.

Then you just prove his point. It's all about what you learn from your elders, which kind of undermines whatever point you were trying to make with that anecdote about your child. He was only expressing what he learned from you and doesn't add any new insight.
au contraire.  We hadn't even discussed sex yet (that came soon after, in unrelated circumstances), so we can't even chalk it up to basic biology.  With only the minimum of facts, he deduced the right conclusion.

It's not rocket science: if a child is raised in a house where he is beaten, the boyfriend beats mommy etc.  he's got a good likelihood to think that violence is normal.  Although it isn't.

Well we'd need to know what "facts" he was exposed to in order to say anything useful about his conclusions. He could simply have never encountered a same-sex couple and reasonably inferred from the couples he has known that they are "supposed" to be opposite-sex couples.
they are supposed to be (no quotation marks).  "Who made them from the beginning made them male and female" (quotation marks because I am quoting the authority on the matter).
He had come across cohabitating opposite sex couples and had reasonably not to mention correctly inferred that that was wrong.
you seem to be unfamiliar with the facts (no quotation marks) of life.

But that only demonstrates his powers of induction and doesn't provide evidence for innate knowledge of what is "natural" or "unnatural" marriage, since it appears from the evidence so far that there is no innate knowledge and one's attitude is dependent on one's cultural upbringing.
Despite the "Blue Lagoon" children have to be taught the facts of life, as there is no innate knowledge.  Zoos have found out that monkeys who don't see mating don't do it.

That doesn't change the facts of life: no mating, no reproduction.
It would certainly make your argument that gay marriage is unnatural a lot more convincing if we could show that, without exposure to any input that could bias him in one way or another, he still concluded that gay marriage was wrong or unnatural. It would show that the conservatives are indeed on the side of nature and it is the liberals who are fighting against what's natural. But so far it looks like attitudes towards sexuality are culturally contingent, and it's harder to argue that one's own cultural views are inherently superior to another's without some externally based value system like "natural law": all you have are arbitrary cultural prejudices.
sorry that I won't put my kids up for your social experimentation to satisfy your curiosity and theories Dr. Money
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money#Sex_reassignment_of_David_Reimer
but I hear CA and elsewhere are turning their schools into laboratories where you can all run amock.

Your "arbitrary cultural prejudices" have been tested and found wanting

Quote
Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065/
Basically your anecdote only convinces those who are already predisposed to agree with you, and I never got the point of preaching to the choir.
sticking your fingers in your ears is a sure way to convince yourself of what you are convinced of.
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« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2014, 12:35:15 PM »

Quote
Despite the "Blue Lagoon" children have to be taught the facts of life, as there is no innate knowledge.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Oh, you were serious?
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« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2014, 12:40:33 PM »

Quote
Despite the "Blue Lagoon" children have to be taught the facts of life, as there is no innate knowledge.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Oh, you were serious?
that is what the evidence reveals.  Your conjecture aside, you have any contrary evidence?
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« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2014, 12:45:30 PM »

Quote
Despite the "Blue Lagoon" children have to be taught the facts of life, as there is no innate knowledge.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Oh, you were serious?
that is what the evidence reveals.  Your conjecture aside, you have any contrary evidence?
The nature vs nurture debate is extensive and well beyond the scope of this thread. Feel free to start a new thread on the topic and I will gladly contribute.
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« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2014, 12:50:38 PM »

Quote
Despite the "Blue Lagoon" children have to be taught the facts of life, as there is no innate knowledge.

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Oh, you were serious?
that is what the evidence reveals.  Your conjecture aside, you have any contrary evidence?
The nature vs nurture debate is extensive and well beyond the scope of this thread. Feel free to start a new thread on the topic and I will gladly contribute.
In the meantime, I came across this comment:
Quote
How did you learn the facts of life?...
My father taught me about sex - no theory just practise.
45 years later I'm still trying to learn about relationships.
Sex, respect for your own body and respect for the bodily integrity of others is too important to be left to parents or chance.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/poll/2012/dec/20/facts-of-life-poll
another case of abnormality dictating the norm?
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« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2014, 12:56:14 PM »

Oh dear. Now we are looking at theguardian's article comment page as a basis for our position.  Sorry OP, the thread is dead. Hopefully you got something of benefit.  Undecided
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« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2014, 01:00:00 PM »

Oh dear. Now we are looking at theguardian's article comment page as a basis for our position.  Sorry OP, the thread is dead. Hopefully you got something of benefit.  Undecided
Who's "we"?
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« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2014, 01:01:38 PM »

Oh dear. Now we are looking at theguardian's article comment page as a basis for our position.  Sorry OP, the thread is dead. Hopefully you got something of benefit.  Undecided
Who's "we"?
Sorry. You.
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« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2014, 01:10:29 PM »

Oh dear. Now we are looking at theguardian's article comment page as a basis for our position.  Sorry OP, the thread is dead. Hopefully you got something of benefit.  Undecided
Who's "we"?
Sorry. You.
Sure the thread is what is dead?
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« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2014, 01:19:07 PM »

RIP thread.
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« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2014, 03:56:39 PM »

On the kids noticing animals mating:

Last week, I took the kids to the zoo. When we were watching the lions, the male decided to mount and mate with the female. I could see what was going to happen, in that moment I decided precisely how to react. I could have dragged the kids away quickly, and they wouldn't have seen a thing. I could have just said that the female was giving the male a "piggyback ride". Instead I decided that I should treat it like no big deal. I answered their questions in the moment, and the subject hasn't come up since then. I want my kids to know that they can ask me anything. I don't want them to be afraid to ask a question because I shrug that subject off with discomfort.

I have a big problem with parents making sex out to be unclean, something to be ashamed of, or taboo. Should sex be a private matter? Absolutely, sex is a private matter between the two parties involved. Society wants to make sex and sexuality out to be a public sport rather than a private relationship function. That doesn't mean that we should shut down all conversation/questions regarding sex and sexuality. Instead, we need to teach our children that sex is a private matter but not something that is shameful. Those lions had sex in front of my kids. I think the college students that saw our kids witness the lions having sex were more disturbed about it than the kids were. Those college students were embarrassed, my kids moved on to looking at the hippos soon afterward.
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« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2014, 04:43:24 PM »

On the kids noticing animals mating:

Last week, I took the kids to the zoo. When we were watching the lions, the male decided to mount and mate with the female. I could see what was going to happen, in that moment I decided precisely how to react. I could have dragged the kids away quickly, and they wouldn't have seen a thing. I could have just said that the female was giving the male a "piggyback ride". Instead I decided that I should treat it like no big deal. I answered their questions in the moment, and the subject hasn't come up since then. I want my kids to know that they can ask me anything. I don't want them to be afraid to ask a question because I shrug that subject off with discomfort.

I have a big problem with parents making sex out to be unclean, something to be ashamed of, or taboo. Should sex be a private matter? Absolutely, sex is a private matter between the two parties involved. Society wants to make sex and sexuality out to be a public sport rather than a private relationship function. That doesn't mean that we should shut down all conversation/questions regarding sex and sexuality. Instead, we need to teach our children that sex is a private matter but not something that is shameful. Those lions had sex in front of my kids. I think the college students that saw our kids witness the lions having sex were more disturbed about it than the kids were. Those college students were embarrassed, my kids moved on to looking at the hippos soon afterward.
Exactly
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« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2014, 12:07:09 AM »

Hi everyone, I'm getting married soon, and my future wife's twin sister is gay. I was wondering how you all would approach that with your children. You obviously can't condone the behavior but when your 3 year old (we don't have children yet just hypothetical) asks you "why does Aunt Jane have a girlfriend instead of a boyfriend" what do you say to them? You have to convey both that that is a sin but also that there aunt should be treated with respect and love. for us in particular, the sister is very close to my future wife. she is angry that I'm "taking" her sister from her. So the moment one of our future children says something negative about the sister's life choice I will surely be blamed and it will be all the more reason to not like me. We are already having to tackle the problem of the sister saying "I hope he knows he will never be as important to you as I am, nothing trumps twin". so the added weight of this will just suck, luckily we have some time to deal with it. But I'm not sure how to handle it and just looking for some advice. thanks

I don't know what to say to you about the twin thing.

But I can tell you that your approach is mature on the gay issue.  Simply address it as a sin to any future children and realize it is a sin.

I will tell you however, this can backfire and the twin later could get very angry with you.   But I think you have a mature approach to the subject.

EDIT - But honestly, I don't think a 3 year old will even understand what gay is... probably won't have to worry about it till later.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 12:08:46 AM by yeshuaisiam » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2014, 04:11:25 PM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....
since the OP brought this issue up, it would seem that this topic has been brought up as the breach that she is going to attack through "your husband is a such a bigot...."  It works very well for bullies of the gay agenda.

The sister is already an enemy. She has declared war.  She isn't going to wait for him to attack back.  So what she says when her sister has that talk on her comment will tell which way to go.

If that talk doesn't take place, head for the door.

Since when are family relations best viewed as war?
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« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2014, 04:14:57 PM »

actually....based on what the poster has said...the focus of the 'ememy' is more 'being taken away from the sister'


that part....has NOTHING to do with the gay issue..or agenda......period.

That has to do with the percieved loss of a lifelong companion and best friend, to an outside relationship.



Our intrepid poster has asked about the gay issue, and you have been more than willing to jump on that bandwagon with your pitchfork and torch....

BUT ignore the bigger issue.....the sister is not feeling resentment over the gay issue at all....as they clearly have not yet dealt with it......


its about her feeling like her Twin is being taken from her...that is a much more serious issue emotionally...and needs to be worked out between the twins.

It wouldnt matter -who- the sister was attracted to.....this twin-ness and the issues it raises, would create similar issues even if she was hetero.

Indeed.  I briefly dated a man who has a twin brother.  They were, of course, very close.  His brother (who was not gay), was always very negative towards me.  I found out from a friend of the man I was dating, that this was what always happened.  His friend told me "You should probably know it's not going to last; his brother runs everyone off."  This isn't an issue about the sister being lesbian or heterosexual or bisexual or tall or short or fat or thin or religious or atheist or anything else, other than a twin.
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« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2014, 05:58:20 PM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....
since the OP brought this issue up, it would seem that this topic has been brought up as the breach that she is going to attack through "your husband is a such a bigot...."  It works very well for bullies of the gay agenda.

The sister is already an enemy. She has declared war.  She isn't going to wait for him to attack back.  So what she says when her sister has that talk on her comment will tell which way to go.

If that talk doesn't take place, head for the door.

Since when are family relations best viewed as war?
In Isa's world, everything is war.  laugh
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« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2014, 06:44:47 PM »

I treat gay family members like family. Because they are.

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« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2014, 07:51:40 PM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....
since the OP brought this issue up, it would seem that this topic has been brought up as the breach that she is going to attack through "your husband is a such a bigot...."  It works very well for bullies of the gay agenda.

The sister is already an enemy. She has declared war.  She isn't going to wait for him to attack back.  So what she says when her sister has that talk on her comment will tell which way to go.

If that talk doesn't take place, head for the door.

Since when are family relations best viewed as war?
In Isa's world, everything is war.  laugh
No, but refusing to see hostility on the march is just asking for trouble.
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« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2014, 07:52:26 PM »

Wow, people are letting their personal crusades get in the way of actually 'giving advice'. 

Not all people are as fortunate as to just be able to cut the gay relative out of their lives, like it appears some would give as advice if they could.

Honestly, the bigger issue here is indeed the 'taking the sister away' and -that- resentment......deal with that first...worry about what the sister in law is doing in her private life after you haven't already made an enemy by taking her sister away from her....
since the OP brought this issue up, it would seem that this topic has been brought up as the breach that she is going to attack through "your husband is a such a bigot...."  It works very well for bullies of the gay agenda.

The sister is already an enemy. She has declared war.  She isn't going to wait for him to attack back.  So what she says when her sister has that talk on her comment will tell which way to go.

If that talk doesn't take place, head for the door.

Since when are family relations best viewed as war?
when they are.
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« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2014, 07:55:52 PM »

actually....based on what the poster has said...the focus of the 'ememy' is more 'being taken away from the sister'


that part....has NOTHING to do with the gay issue..or agenda......period.

That has to do with the percieved loss of a lifelong companion and best friend, to an outside relationship.



Our intrepid poster has asked about the gay issue, and you have been more than willing to jump on that bandwagon with your pitchfork and torch....

BUT ignore the bigger issue.....the sister is not feeling resentment over the gay issue at all....as they clearly have not yet dealt with it......


its about her feeling like her Twin is being taken from her...that is a much more serious issue emotionally...and needs to be worked out between the twins.

It wouldnt matter -who- the sister was attracted to.....this twin-ness and the issues it raises, would create similar issues even if she was hetero.

Indeed.  I briefly dated a man who has a twin brother.  They were, of course, very close.  His brother (who was not gay), was always very negative towards me.  I found out from a friend of the man I was dating, that this was what always happened.  His friend told me "You should probably know it's not going to last; his brother runs everyone off."  This isn't an issue about the sister being lesbian or heterosexual or bisexual or tall or short or fat or thin or religious or atheist or anything else, other than a twin.
Just not going to let the facts spoil your narrative, are you?
OK, this is the deal. me and my wife will be living in the south, in the bible belt, so no matter what I say about it or don't say about homosexuality they will learn it is a sin because it is talked about a lot and in a negative way. Also my wife's sister is very outspoken, she's a feminist and can't wait for someone to say something she can even confuse as an insult to that so she can jump down there throat, my wife included. a few weeks ago she told me she was "meeting another lady" she gave me no context so for all I knew she was meeting someone for a car loan or something when I asked her why she was meeting a lady she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"
this is definitely a weapon she's using to show how awful I am the only thing is she doesn't realize that my wife has the same feelings on the matter as I do. My future wife and I are quite compatible and have much the same beliefs but I guess that last part is expected since we are both Orthodox, however the sister isn't, the sister isn't really a church goer she is one of those I'm a christian but I do what I want and don't go to church but I believe he's there kind of people.  

... she jumped on me "because I'm gay you got a problem with that?!"

What about if you had simply said, "I don't have a problem with you. I love you because you are my future wife's sister, and she loves you. We can discuss my religious beliefs later, if you want. Just let me know when is a good time for you."



no I told her that there was no context to her statement and it had nothing to do with her sexuality. she calmed down after I explained that but all I'm saying is her finger is on the trigger ready to fire.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 07:59:14 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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