Author Topic: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?  (Read 14940 times)

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« on: May 20, 2014, 04:30:27 PM »
Is this common?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUZx0Bno28

"You're my God. You're the best!" *awkward clapping*

Not exactly a traditional communion hymn...

Also make sure to watch until the end when the curtain is closed. It's just so strange to see.

Seems like handing over the keys without a fight.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 04:35:59 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2014, 04:41:19 PM »
They are not Orthodox, as is clear from the name of the video.  This is a recording of part of the Liturgy of the "Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church", which broke away from the Orthodox Church in the 19th century and embraced Protestant theology.  They use a "reformed" version of the West Syrian rite. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 04:44:45 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. The names are all so similar and just different combinations of the same words. I thought this was Malankara Orthodox.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »
They are not Orthodox, as is clear from the name of the video.  This is a recording of part of the Liturgy of the "Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church", which broke away from the Orthodox Church in the 19th century and embraced Protestant theology.  They use a "reformed" version of the West Syrian rite. 

I figured they were something like that when I saw the title of the thread.

So I noticed that they do communion with a spoon - I thought that was primarily a Byzantine/Coptic thing? Well, in the video they just use the spoon for the wine, so maybe that's the difference.

And altar rails? Just seems strange for an Orthodox-turned-Reformed group to have Latinizations on top of everything else.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 04:54:46 PM »
So I noticed that they do communion with a spoon - I thought that was primarily a Byzantine/Coptic thing? Well, in the video they just use the spoon for the wine, so maybe that's the difference.

Except for the Armenians, all of us use the spoon.  But in the Syriac tradition, distributing Communion from the chalice with a spoon is only one way of doing it.  It can be and often is done otherwise.

Quote
And altar rails? Just seems strange for an Orthodox-turned-Reformed group to have Latinizations on top of everything else.

That's an Anglican borrowing.  Generally speaking, Latinisations are more likely to affect the Orthodox than the Protestants, who will have whatever is the Anglican version of a Latinisation. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 04:55:47 PM »
Thanks for clarifying. The names are all so similar and just different combinations of the same words. I thought this was Malankara Orthodox.

Generally, if the group is Orthodox, they will use the word Orthodox somewhere in the official name.  If they are not Orthodox, they're not really interested in being confused for one. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Nephi

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 04:59:16 PM »
Except for the Armenians, all of us use the spoon.  But in the Syriac tradition, distributing Communion from the chalice with a spoon is only one way of doing it.  It can be and often is done otherwise.

My bad, but thanks. I really need to get a handle on all these different traditions.

Quote
That's an Anglican borrowing.  Generally speaking, Latinisations are more likely to affect the Orthodox than the Protestants, who will have whatever is the Anglican version of a Latinisation. 

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I didn't think about them being Reformed vis-a-vis the Anglican Church. When I hear Reformed I always think of groups like the Dutch Reformed. So it's an Anglicization rather than a Latinization. :angel:

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 05:00:48 PM »
This is just a baffling cocktail of Christian religions: Originally Nestorian and East Syriac from first century in India, then changed to West Syriac liturgy and realligned with Jacobite Syrian Patriarchate like 500 years ago, then the British invasion of India brought acceptance of Protestantism via high church Anglicanism, then immigration to the United States added American Evangelical top-40 style songs to the mix? Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

My head is spinning!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 05:02:00 PM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 05:07:20 PM »
This is just a baffling cocktail of Christian religions: Originally Nestorian and East Syriac from first century in India, then changed to West Syriac liturgy and realligned with Jacobite Syrian Patriarchate like 500 years ago, then the British invasion of India brought acceptance of Protestantism via high church Anglicanism, then immigration to the United States added American Evangelical top-40 style songs to the mix? Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

My head is spinning!

Where are you getting your information?  In my experience, Mar Thoma sources (which it seems you have read) are not trustworthy when it comes to their own history before the 19th century because they construct an elabourate mythology to justify their existence.     
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 05:09:09 PM »
Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

No, they practice infant baptism followed by chrismation, just as the Orthodox do.  But they delay Communion until about the age of 13 due to Western influence at the time of their founding. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 05:12:12 PM »
Oh, okay, that makes sense. I didn't think about them being Reformed vis-a-vis the Anglican Church. When I hear Reformed I always think of groups like the Dutch Reformed. So it's an Anglicization rather than a Latinization. :angel:

The word "Reformed" is used differently in India.  It refers to the changes in faith and practice which are deemed to be a return to "original" belief and practice.  It is "reformed" in the sense that we speak of the "Protestant Reformation": not all of those groups are "Reformed" in the "Dutch Reformed" sense. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 05:25:28 PM »
This is just a baffling cocktail of Christian religions: Originally Nestorian and East Syriac from first century in India, then changed to West Syriac liturgy and realligned with Jacobite Syrian Patriarchate like 500 years ago, then the British invasion of India brought acceptance of Protestantism via high church Anglicanism, then immigration to the United States added American Evangelical top-40 style songs to the mix? Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

My head is spinning!

I know we're painting with broad strokes here, but I was always under the impression that it was more like:

*Orthodox and East Syriac from the first century with a Nestorian minority (also East Syriac) after the Nestorian schism

*The Portuguese and the Jesuits show up and use force, bribery and other means to bring a large portion of the population under Rome; Latinizations introduced

*The Orthodox faithful refuse to accept communion with Rome and Latinization and appeal to Alexandria, Antioch and other Orthodox prelates to send them bishops; West Syriac Liturgy introduced, Mar Aithalla murdered by the Catholics, et cetera

*The English and their church show up and the poison of "reformed" theology is introduced, resulting in more schism

*The Orthodox have a beef within their own camp about the role of the Patriarch of Antioch in the local church and an internal schism occurs

*So now a once unified and Orthodox community looks like this:




Honestly, the leading of so many Orthodox Christians into apostasy and heterodoxy by the imperialists and their "missionaries" makes me physically nauseous on occasion.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 05:35:34 PM »
I know we're painting with broad strokes here, but I was always under the impression that it was more like:

*Orthodox and East Syriac from the first century with a Nestorian minority (also East Syriac) after the Nestorian schism

There's no conclusive evidence of which I'm aware which points to a "Nestorian minority" among the Orthodox in India after Ephesus.  And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.  The "first century" references are rather out of place. 

Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 05:48:56 PM »
Also make sure to watch until the end when the curtain is closed. It's just so strange to see.

You watched this from start to finish?  I grimaced after thirty seconds...

Believe it or not, it seems there's been a move toward a more Eastern liturgical style...this set up looks a lot more Orthodox than anything I saw in person the last time I attended one of their Liturgies (maybe about fifteen years ago, give or take?). 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 05:55:18 PM »
I know we're painting with broad strokes here, but I was always under the impression that it was more like:

*Orthodox and East Syriac from the first century with a Nestorian minority (also East Syriac) after the Nestorian schism

There's no conclusive evidence of which I'm aware which points to a "Nestorian minority" among the Orthodox in India after Ephesus.  And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.  The "first century" references are rather out of place. 


True! for all we know it could have been a purely Indian form that is now extinct due to all the missions later on.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2014, 07:48:07 PM »
If you pay attention between minutes four and six, you'll see what I believe (I've never had the opportunity to ask one of their priests for confirmation) is a rather unique, if not unheard of, practice in "traditional liturgy".  For whatever reason, they don't seem to consecrate enough Eucharist for all the communicants, so when they run out the priest goes to the altar, adds to the appropriate vessel more of whatever element has run out, and re-reads the institution and the epiclesis over that element alone in order to consecrate it and distribute it. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Nephi

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2014, 07:53:25 PM »
If you pay attention between minutes four and six, you'll see what I believe (I've never had the opportunity to ask one of their priests for confirmation) is a rather unique, if not unheard of, practice in "traditional liturgy".  For whatever reason, they don't seem to consecrate enough Eucharist for all the communicants, so when they run out the priest goes to the altar, adds to the appropriate vessel more of whatever element has run out, and re-reads the institution and the epiclesis over that element alone in order to consecrate it and distribute it. 

So do they believe in the Real Presence? I assume they affirm the Liturgy as a sacrifice since they still call it a Qurbana and all.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 07:59:58 PM »
There's no conclusive evidence of which I'm aware which points to a "Nestorian minority" among the Orthodox in India after Ephesus.

I didn't mean right after Ephesus, just in the centuries after.  When specifically would you say that the Nestorian Church established itself in Kerala?  It wasn't roughly concurrent with that church's establishment in Persia, et cetera?

And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.

Any educated guesses?

« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 08:19:03 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 08:12:05 PM »


Any educated guesses?



Liturgy/Rite of St. Thomas   ;)

(I'm half-joking though...it would be awesome if we actually unearth liturgical evidence similar to the sort)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 08:12:38 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 08:21:41 PM »
Liturgy/Rite of St. Thomas   ;)

Right, that's what I mean!  Wouldn't it be awesome to have some idea of what that looked like?  Very Judaic, contextualized in a Dravidian culture.  Man, where's Doc Brown with that DeLorean when you need him?  ;)
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 10:12:02 PM »
So do they believe in the Real Presence?

Yes and no. 

Yes, in the sense that, last I checked, there is some language retained in the liturgical texts (which survived the knife), rites preserved in the Liturgy (e.g., repeated consecration of previously unconsecrated bread/wine, as above), and personal piety (e.g., fasting) which could give the impression that there is such a belief. 

No, in the sense that they don't believe in the Real Presence.  At best, they fall on the consubstantiation side of the aisle, but I would say they regard the Eucharist as a memorial the way most Evangelicals in America would consider it a memorial, without even considering trans/con.   

Quote
I assume they affirm the Liturgy as a sacrifice since they still call it a Qurbana and all.

No, they specifically reject the notion that the Eucharist is a sacrifice.  They call it Qurbana because that's what everyone calls it: it is one of several Syriac words which have found their way into the local vernacular.  I've even heard Roman Catholics use it. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Antonis

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 10:28:45 PM »
I found some excellent English-language Syriac Orthodox liturgies on YouTube and I loved them. So nice to have a beautiful Oriental liturgy which can be arcane even to us "Easterners" made understandable in English, and well done too! I was actually surprised how similar it was to Chrysostom's liturgy. It makes sense logically, but there is always a mind impediment for me when there is a difference of aesthetics and language.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 10:29:27 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 10:34:11 PM »
When specifically would you say that the Nestorian Church established itself in Kerala?  It wasn't roughly concurrent with that church's establishment in Persia, et cetera?

I don't think so.  I used to think it was quite early, but there is enough evidence to suggest that a) the Church in Kerala was what we'd call Oriental Orthodox following the East Syriac Liturgy until the advent of the Portuguese, and b) that the establishment of an outright "Nestorian" jurisdiction is a 19th-20th century phenomenon related to jurisdictional squabbles in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  

Quote
And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.

Any educated guesses?

Educated?  No.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say that it was probably the local variant of Jewish synagogue worship (there's been a Jewish community there since before the Incarnation) with the Eucharist and other Christian sacraments adapted to that practice and/or incorporating local non-Jewish practices.  They would've had the OT because of the Jews, and tradition says St Thomas brought with him to India a Hebrew copy of St Matthew's Gospel.  Whether or not any of the other NT writings made it to the region prior to the advent of the East Syriac liturgy I can't say.  
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 10:42:10 PM »
I found some excellent English-language Syriac Orthodox liturgies on YouTube and I loved them. So nice to have a beautiful Oriental liturgy which can be arcane even to us "Easterners" made understandable in English, and well done too! I was actually surprised how similar it was to Chrysostom's liturgy. It makes sense logically, but there is always a mind impediment for me when there is a difference of aesthetics and language.

Well, your Eucharistic Liturgy derives from ours, so some similarity is to be expected, and if you know both well enough, you can see where, apart from the words of the text and certain ritual peculiarities, it is basically the same Liturgy (Armenian Liturgy is like a blend of yours and ours, so it shares in this). 

Coptic Liturgy took some time to get used to because I think it's quite different from Byzantine, Syriac, and Armenian, but even there I'm often surprised at some of the things that are shared between Coptic and Syriac Liturgies. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 10:20:47 AM »
I don't think so.  I used to think it was quite early, but there is enough evidence to suggest that a) the Church in Kerala was what we'd call Oriental Orthodox following the East Syriac Liturgy until the advent of the Portuguese, and b) that the establishment of an outright "Nestorian" jurisdiction is a 19th-20th century phenomenon related to jurisdictional squabbles in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  

I believe you and I'd love to see that substantiated.  Not that I doubt you, but I'd just love to have something approaching solid proof so I could contradict all the Western historians who write otherwise and contend that the Church in India was Nestorian until the hook up with Antioch.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say that it was probably the local variant of Jewish synagogue worship (there's been a Jewish community there since before the Incarnation) with the Eucharist and other Christian sacraments adapted to that practice and/or incorporating local non-Jewish practices.  They would've had the OT because of the Jews, and tradition says St Thomas brought with him to India a Hebrew copy of St Matthew's Gospel.  Whether or not any of the other NT writings made it to the region prior to the advent of the East Syriac liturgy I can't say.  

This is very similar to what H.E. Abune Yesehaq of thrice-blessed memory and other Ethiopian historians have written about the Ethiopian Liturgy prior to the coming of St. Frumentius, who contrary to Western (and unfortunately sometimes Coptic) misconceptions absolutely did not establish Christianity in the country, but merely expanded it and helped the Emperors to make it the official religion of state.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 10:21:41 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 11:59:40 AM »
I don't think so.  I used to think it was quite early, but there is enough evidence to suggest that a) the Church in Kerala was what we'd call Oriental Orthodox following the East Syriac Liturgy until the advent of the Portuguese, and b) that the establishment of an outright "Nestorian" jurisdiction is a 19th-20th century phenomenon related to jurisdictional squabbles in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  

I believe you and I'd love to see that substantiated.  Not that I doubt you, but I'd just love to have something approaching solid proof so I could contradict all the Western historians who write otherwise and contend that the Church in India was Nestorian until the hook up with Antioch.

The same Western historians who say St Thomas never came to India?  :P

This article is certainly not the equivalent of digging up a stone tablet from the seventh century which says "We are not Nestorians", but it presents some interesting facts. 

Certainly it seems to be the case that the Assyrian Church of the East in India was born out of struggles within the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  For the Western historians to be correct, this would mean that

1.  The Indian Church was "Nestorian" for a thousand years or so. 
2.  When the Portuguese came, "Nestorianism" completely disappeared, replaced by Chalcedonian Christianity (specifically, RCism) and Orthodoxy. 
3.  When the British came, Protestantism was introduced. 
4.  And around the same time, a group broke away from the Syro-Malabar Catholics and became "Nestorian". 

Can the Western historians explain how the Church could be "Nestorian" for so long, only to have it disappear so thoroughly for two or three centuries before it came back?  It wasn't like the Christians had no way of getting to Persia if they could get to Antioch, Alexandria, and even Rome. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 12:07:33 PM »
The same Western historians who say St Thomas never came to India?  :P

This article is certainly not the equivalent of digging up a stone tablet from the seventh century which says "We are not Nestorians", but it presents some interesting facts.  

Certainly it seems to be the case that the Assyrian Church of the East in India was born out of struggles within the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  For the Western historians to be correct, this would mean that

1.  The Indian Church was "Nestorian" for a thousand years or so.  
2.  When the Portuguese came, "Nestorianism" completely disappeared, replaced by Chalcedonian Christianity (specifically, RCism) and Orthodoxy.  
3.  When the British came, Protestantism was introduced.  
4.  And around the same time, a group broke away from the Syro-Malabar Catholics and became "Nestorian".  

Can the Western historians explain how the Church could be "Nestorian" for so long, only to have it disappear so thoroughly for two or three centuries before it came back?  It wasn't like the Christians had no way of getting to Persia if they could get to Antioch, Alexandria, and even Rome.  

Thanks, Mor!  I truly appreciate the info!  ;D
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 12:07:50 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 12:34:26 PM »
In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 12:46:00 PM »
I believe you and I'd love to see that substantiated.  Not that I doubt you, but I'd just love to have something approaching solid proof so I could contradict all the Western historians who write otherwise and contend that the Church in India was Nestorian until the hook up with Antioch.
The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 12:51:01 PM »
The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  ;)
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 01:12:48 PM »
In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

In doing that, he simply accepted as a fact the fantastic mythology they have constructed to justify their existence. 

Quote
I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

IMO, there is quite a bit of truth in this. 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 02:22:02 PM »
In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

^ POM
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 06:56:06 PM »
The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  ;)

+1

Yes please! I'm very interested as well!

There is a pretty pricy book that hopefully when I get the money I'll buy, but that looks relevant to the discussion as well:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/3848420058/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=43FQIGFSCU0X&coliid=IE8IR3MD317J7

The author I believe is either Orthodox or Catholic.  I forget.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 06:58:19 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 12:31:20 AM »
In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

In doing that, he simply accepted as a fact the fantastic mythology they have constructed to justify their existence. 

Well, that's what Protestants are known for anyways, they just can't handle the truth.

Quote
I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

IMO, there is quite a bit of truth in this. 

It's quite wellspread based on what I know after viewing some documentaries.
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 12:32:59 AM »
In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

^ POM

what's POM?? ???
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 08:14:44 PM »
The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  ;)

+1

Yes please! I'm very interested as well!

There is a pretty pricy book that hopefully when I get the money I'll buy, but that looks relevant to the discussion as well:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/3848420058/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=43FQIGFSCU0X&coliid=IE8IR3MD317J7

The author I believe is either Orthodox or Catholic.  I forget.

It looks like he is of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church:

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/01/dr-m-kurien-thomas-honored-by-menora-award/
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2014, 11:11:51 PM »
In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

^ POM

Agreed. Good job Sakura. 
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2016, 07:16:42 AM »
The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  ;)

+1

Here is an electronic copy
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3Nhs333DL7JT0VjSDhIZ25pOFpTbzB6YllpVVZNbnh6Mnpr/view?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 07:17:27 AM by dhinuus »
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2016, 01:52:32 PM »
Thank you  :)
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2016, 07:53:16 PM »
If you pay attention between minutes four and six, you'll see what I believe (I've never had the opportunity to ask one of their priests for confirmation) is a rather unique, if not unheard of, practice in "traditional liturgy".  For whatever reason, they don't seem to consecrate enough Eucharist for all the communicants, so when they run out the priest goes to the altar, adds to the appropriate vessel more of whatever element has run out, and re-reads the institution and the epiclesis over that element alone in order to consecrate it and distribute it.

My Coptic Euchologion contains a mini-anaphora called "The Refilling of the Chalice" for that purpose.   I have also seen this in the Anglican BCP, from which I assume the Mar Thoma people (and maybe the Copts) got the idea.
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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2016, 01:18:04 AM »
If you pay attention between minutes four and six, you'll see what I believe (I've never had the opportunity to ask one of their priests for confirmation) is a rather unique, if not unheard of, practice in "traditional liturgy".  For whatever reason, they don't seem to consecrate enough Eucharist for all the communicants, so when they run out the priest goes to the altar, adds to the appropriate vessel more of whatever element has run out, and re-reads the institution and the epiclesis over that element alone in order to consecrate it and distribute it.

My Coptic Euchologion contains a mini-anaphora called "The Refilling of the Chalice" for that purpose.   I have also seen this in the Anglican BCP, from which I assume the Mar Thoma people (and maybe the Copts) got the idea.
There are 2 Coptic rites for the Chalice: 1. Consecration of the Chalice/Vessels and 2. The Rite of the Filling of the Chalice. There is a third rite called "The Rite of the Jar", which is a rite of washing with water for an apostate and one who has sexual relations with a heretic. I don't think you were talking about this rite, nor the rite of consecration of the vessels.

I assume you were talking about #2 above. There are a few manuscripts that contain this rite, none of the instructional rubrics give the reason you quoted. Rafael Tuki's "Missal Copto Arabicum" pp. 352-261 has an Arabic rubric that says "This is the Rite of the Filling of the Chalice, namely, the offering and the consecration of the Precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ...If some accident befall the Chalice which causes what is in it to disappear, i.e., if the Chalice is found to be without wine by reason of a crack or a leak in it, or that water or vinegar or oil or any fatty substance has been poured into it, what is in it shall be poured out, after the body has been covered and placed at the right side of the altar and a priest or a vigilant deacon is allowed to remain on watch, candle in hand...." (Translation by Iris Habib al-Masri's "The Rite of the Filling of the Chalice" BSAC 6, p.85). A similar reason is given in Coptic Museum Lit 330 and Kasriyat ar-Rihan Church in Old Cairo M Lit 79. Ibn Kabar's Lamp of Darkness mentions the rite but does not give a reason for the rite. It is also found in Pope Gabriel V's Order of Rites.

As you can see, no manuscript or ancient writer gives the reason of refilling the chalice when the elements/Blood run(s) out. It has been hypothesized that the Rite of the Filling of the Chalice is a "refurbished" Alexandrian rite of the presanctified liturgy that was repurposed for a specific emergency and nothing else.

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2016, 01:29:31 AM »
As you can see, no manuscript or ancient writer gives the reason of refilling the chalice when the elements/Blood run(s) out. It has been hypothesized that the Rite of the Filling of the Chalice is a "refurbished" Alexandrian rite of the presanctified liturgy that was repurposed for a specific emergency and nothing else.

What is its order?
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2016, 10:24:02 AM »
Is this common?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUZx0Bno28

"You're my God. You're the best!" *awkward clapping*

Not exactly a traditional communion hymn...

Also make sure to watch until the end when the curtain is closed. It's just so strange to see.

Seems like handing over the keys without a fight.
Yes, it is common.  I would call the church a Protestant Eastern-rite church in order to avoid the U word.  Or they are Orthodox in union with Canterbury.

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Re: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2016, 04:00:58 PM »
As you can see, no manuscript or ancient writer gives the reason of refilling the chalice when the elements/Blood run(s) out. It has been hypothesized that the Rite of the Filling of the Chalice is a "refurbished" Alexandrian rite of the presanctified liturgy that was repurposed for a specific emergency and nothing else.

What is its order?
I'm not sure I understand your question. In Copto-Arabic, rite, order and instructional rubrics are basically synonyms.  Are you asking for the specific order in the Rite of the Filling of the Chalice or are you asking for the specific order of the now-extinct Alexandrian pre sanctification rite?  Or are you asking for the full specific instructions for the Filling of the Chalice that I mentioned above? Or are you asking for the prayer text of the Rite of the Filling of the Chalice?