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Author Topic: Malankara Church uses Protestant Hymns?  (Read 2379 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: May 20, 2014, 04:30:27 PM »

Is this common?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUUZx0Bno28

"You're my God. You're the best!" *awkward clapping*

Not exactly a traditional communion hymn...

Also make sure to watch until the end when the curtain is closed. It's just so strange to see.

Seems like handing over the keys without a fight.
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2014, 04:41:19 PM »

They are not Orthodox, as is clear from the name of the video.  This is a recording of part of the Liturgy of the "Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church", which broke away from the Orthodox Church in the 19th century and embraced Protestant theology.  They use a "reformed" version of the West Syrian rite. 
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2014, 04:44:45 PM »

Thanks for clarifying. The names are all so similar and just different combinations of the same words. I thought this was Malankara Orthodox.
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »

They are not Orthodox, as is clear from the name of the video.  This is a recording of part of the Liturgy of the "Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church", which broke away from the Orthodox Church in the 19th century and embraced Protestant theology.  They use a "reformed" version of the West Syrian rite. 

I figured they were something like that when I saw the title of the thread.

So I noticed that they do communion with a spoon - I thought that was primarily a Byzantine/Coptic thing? Well, in the video they just use the spoon for the wine, so maybe that's the difference.

And altar rails? Just seems strange for an Orthodox-turned-Reformed group to have Latinizations on top of everything else.
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2014, 04:54:46 PM »

So I noticed that they do communion with a spoon - I thought that was primarily a Byzantine/Coptic thing? Well, in the video they just use the spoon for the wine, so maybe that's the difference.

Except for the Armenians, all of us use the spoon.  But in the Syriac tradition, distributing Communion from the chalice with a spoon is only one way of doing it.  It can be and often is done otherwise.

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And altar rails? Just seems strange for an Orthodox-turned-Reformed group to have Latinizations on top of everything else.

That's an Anglican borrowing.  Generally speaking, Latinisations are more likely to affect the Orthodox than the Protestants, who will have whatever is the Anglican version of a Latinisation. 
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2014, 04:55:47 PM »

Thanks for clarifying. The names are all so similar and just different combinations of the same words. I thought this was Malankara Orthodox.

Generally, if the group is Orthodox, they will use the word Orthodox somewhere in the official name.  If they are not Orthodox, they're not really interested in being confused for one. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2014, 04:59:16 PM »

Except for the Armenians, all of us use the spoon.  But in the Syriac tradition, distributing Communion from the chalice with a spoon is only one way of doing it.  It can be and often is done otherwise.

My bad, but thanks. I really need to get a handle on all these different traditions.

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That's an Anglican borrowing.  Generally speaking, Latinisations are more likely to affect the Orthodox than the Protestants, who will have whatever is the Anglican version of a Latinisation. 

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I didn't think about them being Reformed vis-a-vis the Anglican Church. When I hear Reformed I always think of groups like the Dutch Reformed. So it's an Anglicization rather than a Latinization. angel
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2014, 05:00:48 PM »

This is just a baffling cocktail of Christian religions: Originally Nestorian and East Syriac from first century in India, then changed to West Syriac liturgy and realligned with Jacobite Syrian Patriarchate like 500 years ago, then the British invasion of India brought acceptance of Protestantism via high church Anglicanism, then immigration to the United States added American Evangelical top-40 style songs to the mix? Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

My head is spinning!
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2014, 05:07:20 PM »

This is just a baffling cocktail of Christian religions: Originally Nestorian and East Syriac from first century in India, then changed to West Syriac liturgy and realligned with Jacobite Syrian Patriarchate like 500 years ago, then the British invasion of India brought acceptance of Protestantism via high church Anglicanism, then immigration to the United States added American Evangelical top-40 style songs to the mix? Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

My head is spinning!

Where are you getting your information?  In my experience, Mar Thoma sources (which it seems you have read) are not trustworthy when it comes to their own history before the 19th century because they construct an elabourate mythology to justify their existence.     
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 05:09:09 PM »

Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

No, they practice infant baptism followed by chrismation, just as the Orthodox do.  But they delay Communion until about the age of 13 due to Western influence at the time of their founding. 
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2014, 05:12:12 PM »

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I didn't think about them being Reformed vis-a-vis the Anglican Church. When I hear Reformed I always think of groups like the Dutch Reformed. So it's an Anglicization rather than a Latinization. angel

The word "Reformed" is used differently in India.  It refers to the changes in faith and practice which are deemed to be a return to "original" belief and practice.  It is "reformed" in the sense that we speak of the "Protestant Reformation": not all of those groups are "Reformed" in the "Dutch Reformed" sense. 
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2014, 05:25:28 PM »

This is just a baffling cocktail of Christian religions: Originally Nestorian and East Syriac from first century in India, then changed to West Syriac liturgy and realligned with Jacobite Syrian Patriarchate like 500 years ago, then the British invasion of India brought acceptance of Protestantism via high church Anglicanism, then immigration to the United States added American Evangelical top-40 style songs to the mix? Another video had a "first communion" for teenagers? Perhaps after a believer's baptism?

My head is spinning!

I know we're painting with broad strokes here, but I was always under the impression that it was more like:

*Orthodox and East Syriac from the first century with a Nestorian minority (also East Syriac) after the Nestorian schism

*The Portuguese and the Jesuits show up and use force, bribery and other means to bring a large portion of the population under Rome; Latinizations introduced

*The Orthodox faithful refuse to accept communion with Rome and Latinization and appeal to Alexandria, Antioch and other Orthodox prelates to send them bishops; West Syriac Liturgy introduced, Mar Aithalla murdered by the Catholics, et cetera

*The English and their church show up and the poison of "reformed" theology is introduced, resulting in more schism

*The Orthodox have a beef within their own camp about the role of the Patriarch of Antioch in the local church and an internal schism occurs

*So now a once unified and Orthodox community looks like this:




Honestly, the leading of so many Orthodox Christians into apostasy and heterodoxy by the imperialists and their "missionaries" makes me physically nauseous on occasion.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2014, 05:35:34 PM »

I know we're painting with broad strokes here, but I was always under the impression that it was more like:

*Orthodox and East Syriac from the first century with a Nestorian minority (also East Syriac) after the Nestorian schism

There's no conclusive evidence of which I'm aware which points to a "Nestorian minority" among the Orthodox in India after Ephesus.  And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.  The "first century" references are rather out of place. 

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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2014, 05:48:56 PM »

Also make sure to watch until the end when the curtain is closed. It's just so strange to see.

You watched this from start to finish?  I grimaced after thirty seconds...

Believe it or not, it seems there's been a move toward a more Eastern liturgical style...this set up looks a lot more Orthodox than anything I saw in person the last time I attended one of their Liturgies (maybe about fifteen years ago, give or take?). 
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2014, 05:55:18 PM »

I know we're painting with broad strokes here, but I was always under the impression that it was more like:

*Orthodox and East Syriac from the first century with a Nestorian minority (also East Syriac) after the Nestorian schism

There's no conclusive evidence of which I'm aware which points to a "Nestorian minority" among the Orthodox in India after Ephesus.  And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.  The "first century" references are rather out of place. 


True! for all we know it could have been a purely Indian form that is now extinct due to all the missions later on.
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2014, 07:48:07 PM »

If you pay attention between minutes four and six, you'll see what I believe (I've never had the opportunity to ask one of their priests for confirmation) is a rather unique, if not unheard of, practice in "traditional liturgy".  For whatever reason, they don't seem to consecrate enough Eucharist for all the communicants, so when they run out the priest goes to the altar, adds to the appropriate vessel more of whatever element has run out, and re-reads the institution and the epiclesis over that element alone in order to consecrate it and distribute it. 
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2014, 07:53:25 PM »

If you pay attention between minutes four and six, you'll see what I believe (I've never had the opportunity to ask one of their priests for confirmation) is a rather unique, if not unheard of, practice in "traditional liturgy".  For whatever reason, they don't seem to consecrate enough Eucharist for all the communicants, so when they run out the priest goes to the altar, adds to the appropriate vessel more of whatever element has run out, and re-reads the institution and the epiclesis over that element alone in order to consecrate it and distribute it. 

So do they believe in the Real Presence? I assume they affirm the Liturgy as a sacrifice since they still call it a Qurbana and all.
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2014, 07:59:58 PM »

There's no conclusive evidence of which I'm aware which points to a "Nestorian minority" among the Orthodox in India after Ephesus.

I didn't mean right after Ephesus, just in the centuries after.  When specifically would you say that the Nestorian Church established itself in Kerala?  It wasn't roughly concurrent with that church's establishment in Persia, et cetera?

And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.

Any educated guesses?

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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 08:12:05 PM »



Any educated guesses?



Liturgy/Rite of St. Thomas   Wink

(I'm half-joking though...it would be awesome if we actually unearth liturgical evidence similar to the sort)
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 08:21:41 PM »

Liturgy/Rite of St. Thomas   Wink

Right, that's what I mean!  Wouldn't it be awesome to have some idea of what that looked like?  Very Judaic, contextualized in a Dravidian culture.  Man, where's Doc Brown with that DeLorean when you need him?  Wink
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 10:12:02 PM »

So do they believe in the Real Presence?

Yes and no. 

Yes, in the sense that, last I checked, there is some language retained in the liturgical texts (which survived the knife), rites preserved in the Liturgy (e.g., repeated consecration of previously unconsecrated bread/wine, as above), and personal piety (e.g., fasting) which could give the impression that there is such a belief. 

No, in the sense that they don't believe in the Real Presence.  At best, they fall on the consubstantiation side of the aisle, but I would say they regard the Eucharist as a memorial the way most Evangelicals in America would consider it a memorial, without even considering trans/con.   

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I assume they affirm the Liturgy as a sacrifice since they still call it a Qurbana and all.

No, they specifically reject the notion that the Eucharist is a sacrifice.  They call it Qurbana because that's what everyone calls it: it is one of several Syriac words which have found their way into the local vernacular.  I've even heard Roman Catholics use it. 
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 10:28:45 PM »

I found some excellent English-language Syriac Orthodox liturgies on YouTube and I loved them. So nice to have a beautiful Oriental liturgy which can be arcane even to us "Easterners" made understandable in English, and well done too! I was actually surprised how similar it was to Chrysostom's liturgy. It makes sense logically, but there is always a mind impediment for me when there is a difference of aesthetics and language.
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 10:34:11 PM »

When specifically would you say that the Nestorian Church established itself in Kerala?  It wasn't roughly concurrent with that church's establishment in Persia, et cetera?

I don't think so.  I used to think it was quite early, but there is enough evidence to suggest that a) the Church in Kerala was what we'd call Oriental Orthodox following the East Syriac Liturgy until the advent of the Portuguese, and b) that the establishment of an outright "Nestorian" jurisdiction is a 19th-20th century phenomenon related to jurisdictional squabbles in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  

Quote
And anyway, we have little to no idea about what the liturgy in India looked like before the East Syrian rite entered India roughly around the 4th-5th century.

Any educated guesses?

Educated?  No.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say that it was probably the local variant of Jewish synagogue worship (there's been a Jewish community there since before the Incarnation) with the Eucharist and other Christian sacraments adapted to that practice and/or incorporating local non-Jewish practices.  They would've had the OT because of the Jews, and tradition says St Thomas brought with him to India a Hebrew copy of St Matthew's Gospel.  Whether or not any of the other NT writings made it to the region prior to the advent of the East Syriac liturgy I can't say.  
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 10:42:10 PM »

I found some excellent English-language Syriac Orthodox liturgies on YouTube and I loved them. So nice to have a beautiful Oriental liturgy which can be arcane even to us "Easterners" made understandable in English, and well done too! I was actually surprised how similar it was to Chrysostom's liturgy. It makes sense logically, but there is always a mind impediment for me when there is a difference of aesthetics and language.

Well, your Eucharistic Liturgy derives from ours, so some similarity is to be expected, and if you know both well enough, you can see where, apart from the words of the text and certain ritual peculiarities, it is basically the same Liturgy (Armenian Liturgy is like a blend of yours and ours, so it shares in this). 

Coptic Liturgy took some time to get used to because I think it's quite different from Byzantine, Syriac, and Armenian, but even there I'm often surprised at some of the things that are shared between Coptic and Syriac Liturgies. 
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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 10:20:47 AM »

I don't think so.  I used to think it was quite early, but there is enough evidence to suggest that a) the Church in Kerala was what we'd call Oriental Orthodox following the East Syriac Liturgy until the advent of the Portuguese, and b) that the establishment of an outright "Nestorian" jurisdiction is a 19th-20th century phenomenon related to jurisdictional squabbles in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  

I believe you and I'd love to see that substantiated.  Not that I doubt you, but I'd just love to have something approaching solid proof so I could contradict all the Western historians who write otherwise and contend that the Church in India was Nestorian until the hook up with Antioch.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would say that it was probably the local variant of Jewish synagogue worship (there's been a Jewish community there since before the Incarnation) with the Eucharist and other Christian sacraments adapted to that practice and/or incorporating local non-Jewish practices.  They would've had the OT because of the Jews, and tradition says St Thomas brought with him to India a Hebrew copy of St Matthew's Gospel.  Whether or not any of the other NT writings made it to the region prior to the advent of the East Syriac liturgy I can't say.  

This is very similar to what H.E. Abune Yesehaq of thrice-blessed memory and other Ethiopian historians have written about the Ethiopian Liturgy prior to the coming of St. Frumentius, who contrary to Western (and unfortunately sometimes Coptic) misconceptions absolutely did not establish Christianity in the country, but merely expanded it and helped the Emperors to make it the official religion of state.
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 11:59:40 AM »

I don't think so.  I used to think it was quite early, but there is enough evidence to suggest that a) the Church in Kerala was what we'd call Oriental Orthodox following the East Syriac Liturgy until the advent of the Portuguese, and b) that the establishment of an outright "Nestorian" jurisdiction is a 19th-20th century phenomenon related to jurisdictional squabbles in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  

I believe you and I'd love to see that substantiated.  Not that I doubt you, but I'd just love to have something approaching solid proof so I could contradict all the Western historians who write otherwise and contend that the Church in India was Nestorian until the hook up with Antioch.

The same Western historians who say St Thomas never came to India?  Tongue

This article is certainly not the equivalent of digging up a stone tablet from the seventh century which says "We are not Nestorians", but it presents some interesting facts. 

Certainly it seems to be the case that the Assyrian Church of the East in India was born out of struggles within the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  For the Western historians to be correct, this would mean that

1.  The Indian Church was "Nestorian" for a thousand years or so. 
2.  When the Portuguese came, "Nestorianism" completely disappeared, replaced by Chalcedonian Christianity (specifically, RCism) and Orthodoxy. 
3.  When the British came, Protestantism was introduced. 
4.  And around the same time, a group broke away from the Syro-Malabar Catholics and became "Nestorian". 

Can the Western historians explain how the Church could be "Nestorian" for so long, only to have it disappear so thoroughly for two or three centuries before it came back?  It wasn't like the Christians had no way of getting to Persia if they could get to Antioch, Alexandria, and even Rome. 
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 12:07:33 PM »

The same Western historians who say St Thomas never came to India?  Tongue

This article is certainly not the equivalent of digging up a stone tablet from the seventh century which says "We are not Nestorians", but it presents some interesting facts.  

Certainly it seems to be the case that the Assyrian Church of the East in India was born out of struggles within the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.  For the Western historians to be correct, this would mean that

1.  The Indian Church was "Nestorian" for a thousand years or so.  
2.  When the Portuguese came, "Nestorianism" completely disappeared, replaced by Chalcedonian Christianity (specifically, RCism) and Orthodoxy.  
3.  When the British came, Protestantism was introduced.  
4.  And around the same time, a group broke away from the Syro-Malabar Catholics and became "Nestorian".  

Can the Western historians explain how the Church could be "Nestorian" for so long, only to have it disappear so thoroughly for two or three centuries before it came back?  It wasn't like the Christians had no way of getting to Persia if they could get to Antioch, Alexandria, and even Rome.  

Thanks, Mor!  I truly appreciate the info!  Grin
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 12:34:26 PM »

In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 12:46:00 PM »

I believe you and I'd love to see that substantiated.  Not that I doubt you, but I'd just love to have something approaching solid proof so I could contradict all the Western historians who write otherwise and contend that the Church in India was Nestorian until the hook up with Antioch.
The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 12:51:01 PM »

The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  Wink
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 01:12:48 PM »

In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

In doing that, he simply accepted as a fact the fantastic mythology they have constructed to justify their existence. 

Quote
I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

IMO, there is quite a bit of truth in this. 
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 02:22:02 PM »

In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

^ POM
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 06:56:06 PM »

The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  Wink

+1

Yes please! I'm very interested as well!

There is a pretty pricy book that hopefully when I get the money I'll buy, but that looks relevant to the discussion as well:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/3848420058/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=43FQIGFSCU0X&coliid=IE8IR3MD317J7

The author I believe is either Orthodox or Catholic.  I forget.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 06:58:19 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 12:31:20 AM »

In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

In doing that, he simply accepted as a fact the fantastic mythology they have constructed to justify their existence. 

Well, that's what Protestants are known for anyways, they just can't handle the truth.

Quote
I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

IMO, there is quite a bit of truth in this. 

It's quite wellspread based on what I know after viewing some documentaries.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 12:32:59 AM »

In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

^ POM

what's POM?? Huh
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2014, 12:34:30 AM »


Post of (the) month. Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2014, 08:14:44 PM »

The graduate thesis of Geevarghese Mar Ivanios who left the Malankara Church to join Rome and started the Syro-Malankara RC rite in 1930 is titled "Malankara Church prior to the arrival of the Portuguese was Jacobite and not Nestorian" . It has been a while since I have read it; I will try to find it. In that he gives some good evidence for proving his point.

Is it available online?  Or could it be put online?  Wink

+1

Yes please! I'm very interested as well!

There is a pretty pricy book that hopefully when I get the money I'll buy, but that looks relevant to the discussion as well:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/3848420058/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=43FQIGFSCU0X&coliid=IE8IR3MD317J7

The author I believe is either Orthodox or Catholic.  I forget.

It looks like he is of the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church:

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2014/01/dr-m-kurien-thomas-honored-by-menora-award/
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« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2014, 11:11:51 PM »

In regards to this, I would like to add something I heard in my college Christian Fellowship session once. There was a Baptist Pastor that mentioned something about the St Thomas Christians of India and.....instead of even giving a single mention of the Malankara Orthodox Church, he explicitly mentions the Mar Thoma church which is just a product of Protestant influence during the 19th Century(the Pastor made no mention of this at all) and nonchalantly declared the Mar Thoma church to be the true Church founded by St Thomas the Apostle.

I highly suspect that the Mar Thoma church is really just an imitation of the original Malankara Orthodox church with some Anglicization and Protestant elements added into the mix in order to attract converts from the True St Thomas Christian Churches. If anyone is wondering about my suspicion, it stems from the fact that Protestants would use all sorts of methods to win converts. Just look at what they are doing in South Korea, India(There was a Baptist Church that actually collaborated with a terrorist group!) and just as some members of this forum have mentioned, in Ethiopia as well. So this video is really just the Holy Qurbana being defiled by Protestant heresies to attract the attention of the Malankara Orthodox laity.

^ POM

Agreed. Good job Sakura. 
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