Author Topic: Gay Marriage...I don't care.  (Read 3444 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,759
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #135 on: June 30, 2014, 09:39:39 AM »
Quote
Anyway, my question still remains, if there is any verse in the Old Testament, specially the Torah, that say female-female sexual relations is an abomination and both should be put to death. please share it with us.
Thou shalt not eat human flesh....oh wait.....

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #136 on: June 30, 2014, 09:46:26 AM »
Given also that a man is equivalent to a woman as well, the Old Testament Laws may also take this equality into account and it would be understandable that lesbianism which is simply the sexual feelings between two females would be the same as a man having sexual feelings for another man. Given this, it logically coincides with the perspective that the anti homosexual laws in the Old Testament are also directed towards women given the equality. Unless a male is superior to a female, then the the rule does not apply to lesbianism but that would simply just be sexist wouldn't it?


Given that the idea of "sexism" (whatever that means) being wrong is a modern phenomenon, it really shouldn't enter our minds when considering the intended meaning of ancient texts.

This is perhaps true but there are always exceptions to the rule. The Old Testament have numerous examples of women being in authority and even in the Book of Judith, being the heroine(Judith) that saves the day. So it should be noted that the Sacred Scriptures are not being sexist at all. Even if the New Testament mentions that wives must submit to their husbands, the husband must also submit to the wife by loving her and treating her as his own flesh and surely no sane person would simply treat their own flesh with disregard and inflict pain on it.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #137 on: June 30, 2014, 09:51:17 AM »
This is perhaps true but there are always exceptions to the rule. The Old Testament have numerous examples of women being in authority and even in the Book of Judith, being the heroine(Judith) that saves the day. So it should be noted that the Sacred Scriptures are not being sexist at all. Even if the New Testament mentions that wives must submit to their husbands, the husband must also submit to the wife by loving her and treating her as his own flesh and surely no sane person would simply treat their own flesh with disregard and inflict pain on it.

It's a ridiculous strawman to suppose that opposing feminism means supporting wife-beating.
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,245
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #138 on: June 30, 2014, 09:57:28 AM »
Quote
I'm not dismissing the testimony of the NT.

Oh yes you are. You're doing all you can to ignore, dismiss, or downplay what the book of Romans has to say on the matter.

I already said my opinion on Romans 1. Go check it out.

Folks, I'm going to wait for Kelly to say why she thinks I want homosexuality to be alright. I'm really looking forward to know what she thinks the reason is.

I don't want to convince anyone to believe what I and many Christians already believe regarding the Bible and homosexuality. However, I had to say what I believe so other people see that there are two opinions on the issue, not just one.

Peace.



It's obvious you are trying to justify your internet search history.  Just let it go. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,110
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: canonical
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #139 on: June 30, 2014, 10:00:51 AM »
Quote
I'm not dismissing the testimony of the NT.

Oh yes you are. You're doing all you can to ignore, dismiss, or downplay what the book of Romans has to say on the matter.

I already said my opinion on Romans 1. Go check it out.

Folks, I'm going to wait for Kelly to say why she thinks I want homosexuality to be alright. I'm really looking forward to know what she thinks the reason is.

I don't want to convince anyone to believe what I and many Christians already believe regarding the Bible and homosexuality. However, I had to say what I believe so other people see that there are two opinions on the issue, not just one.

Peace.



It's obvious you are trying to justify your internet search history.  Just let it go. 

ding ding ding
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,759
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #140 on: June 30, 2014, 10:05:44 AM »
So I guess because of pais, Raylight thinks pederasty is ok as well.....

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,245
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #141 on: June 30, 2014, 10:06:49 AM »
Given also that a man is equivalent to a woman as well, the Old Testament Laws may also take this equality into account and it would be understandable that lesbianism which is simply the sexual feelings between two females would be the same as a man having sexual feelings for another man. Given this, it logically coincides with the perspective that the anti homosexual laws in the Old Testament are also directed towards women given the equality. Unless a male is superior to a female, then the the rule does not apply to lesbianism but that would simply just be sexist wouldn't it?


Given that the idea of "sexism" (whatever that means) being wrong is a modern phenomenon, it really shouldn't enter our minds when considering the intended meaning of ancient texts.

This is perhaps true but there are always exceptions to the rule. The Old Testament have numerous examples of women being in authority and even in the Book of Judith, being the heroine(Judith) that saves the day. So it should be noted that the Sacred Scriptures are not being sexist at all. Even if the New Testament mentions that wives must submit to their husbands, the husband must also submit to the wife by loving her and treating her as his own flesh and surely no sane person would simply treat their own flesh with disregard and inflict pain on it.

I swear, first you translate pais as "young male lover".  It's "boy" or "youth".  I am sure that it was used as a euphemism at times (most naughty words in most languages tend to be) but I would prefer to just use the primary translation rather than trying to slander our Lord as some kind of sodomite.  Then you start throwing words into the blessed St. Paul's mouth.  No where does he say for men to submit to their wives.  You can love without submission.  Christ does not obey the Church.  He'll die for it, yes, but not submit.

One more distortion of scripture and I will restart the Inquisition.  You have been warned.  
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 10:07:59 AM by vamrat »
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The Purple Demon is gonna get you if you don't watch out!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,132
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #142 on: June 30, 2014, 10:12:36 AM »
To listen to gay advocates, you would think that the entire Bible has a massive gnostic homoerotic subtext to everything. Everyone in Scripture is secret gay marriage advocate, and all the Apostles and Jesus were plotting a massive gay uprising until Paul came along and dashed their hopes and dreams.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #143 on: June 30, 2014, 10:18:30 AM »
I swear, first you translate pais as "young male lover".  It's "boy" or "youth".  I am sure that it was used as a euphemism at times (most naughty words in most languages tend to be) but I would prefer to just use the primary translation rather than trying to slander our Lord as some kind of sodomite.  Then you start throwing words into the blessed St. Paul's mouth.  No where does he say for men to submit to their wives.  You can love without submission.  Christ does not obey the Church.  He'll die for it, yes, but not submit.

One more distortion of scripture and I will restart the Inquisition.  You have been warned.  

1 Corinthians 7:
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that."

It's specifically regarding intercourse, though. He places authority only on the man in all other situations. Just throwing that out there for completeness' sake.
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,245
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #144 on: June 30, 2014, 10:56:05 AM »
I swear, first you translate pais as "young male lover".  It's "boy" or "youth".  I am sure that it was used as a euphemism at times (most naughty words in most languages tend to be) but I would prefer to just use the primary translation rather than trying to slander our Lord as some kind of sodomite.  Then you start throwing words into the blessed St. Paul's mouth.  No where does he say for men to submit to their wives (except when he is withholding whoopie from her...which one would suspect never happens unless he is some kind of toolbag or closet homo).  You can love without submission.  Christ does not obey the Church.  He'll die for it, yes, but not submit.

One more distortion of scripture and I will restart the Inquisition.  You have been warned.  

1 Corinthians 7:
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that."

It's specifically regarding intercourse, though. He places authority only on the man in all other situations. Just throwing that out there for completeness' sake.

Thanks.  Has been corrected.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #145 on: June 30, 2014, 11:13:39 AM »
We should first note that "young gay lover" is just a possible definition of the word "Pais" besides "Servant" or "children". We cannot simply make the assumption that the use of the word "pais" everywhere in Sacred Scriptures as being "young gay lover" especially when the word itself have multiple definitions.

And yet that's the one you jumped for. 

Quote
Hence, we must utilize the definition that is most suitable to the context of the verse. The two verses that refers to Jesus as "pais" simply translates as "child" because it is reference of Jesus being the Son of God, who is the Father. This natural as the Son is the child of the Father and the main context of the two verses is that they are praying to God. This would render the "Young gay lover" usage in this context as ridiculous and absurd, hence we know it cannot be the case and it must be either "servant" or "child" which both have a better fit. Some translations render "Pais" in the two verses as "Servant", the KJV renders it as "child".

OK...

Quote
In the context of the Centurion, while it may be argued that it could simply be his servant which in such an era, is simply a slave. Why would a Centurion who could easily find replacements request Jesus to heal his "Pais"? It would be more logical if that person is someone whom he love hence the appropriate attribution of the person the Centurion requested for Jesus to heal to be his lover given that the term, "young gay lover" is a possible meaning of "Pais". Despite this, it shouldn't be used as grounds to accept homosexuality, rather it should be used to accept the fact that Jesus loves all people regardless of sexual orientation.

So every time a man has "love" for another man, it's because they have sex.  Well, I would have you know that I was never molested by my father. 

Aren't you the fellow agonising in another thread about being coerced into buying a Protestant study Bible?  Under such circumstances, you are in no place to attempt theology.   
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #146 on: June 30, 2014, 11:14:45 AM »
Quote
Anyway, my question still remains, if there is any verse in the Old Testament, specially the Torah, that say female-female sexual relations is an abomination and both should be put to death. please share it with us.
Thou shalt not eat human flesh....oh wait.....

PP

 ;)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #147 on: June 30, 2014, 11:17:07 AM »
Quote
I'm not dismissing the testimony of the NT.

Oh yes you are. You're doing all you can to ignore, dismiss, or downplay what the book of Romans has to say on the matter.

I already said my opinion on Romans 1. Go check it out.

Folks, I'm going to wait for Kelly to say why she thinks I want homosexuality to be alright. I'm really looking forward to know what she thinks the reason is.

I don't want to convince anyone to believe what I and many Christians already believe regarding the Bible and homosexuality. However, I had to say what I believe so other people see that there are two opinions on the issue, not just one.

Peace.



It's obvious you are trying to justify your internet search history.  Just let it go. 

ding ding ding

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,241
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #148 on: June 30, 2014, 11:18:06 AM »

However, we must be clear that homosexuals are still human beings and remember that they still have sexual urges just as we do but simply towards members of the same gender. Hence, we must be careful to not support laws or initiatives that segregate or breach their rights as human beings or "second class" simply because of their sexual inclinations.

For the purposes of having rights and protections equal to those enjoyed by married folks, I do not mind legalizing homosexual unions. They could be called several names other than marriage: larriage for lesbians, harriage or garriage for gay men, quarriage for those who are questioning, tarriage for the transexual, etc... There was no reason to insist on a word that means something very specific to most of us--a union of a man and a woman. The point was not about equal rights, the point was and is about gay folks demanding approval and even kudos not for their orientation but for their homsexual activities. I do not think that legalizing homosexual activities is such a great step in our evolution as human beings; this opens up the door to decriminalizing all other sexual orientations and their respective sexual activities. In the West, we have done a good job of factoring out adultery out of the civil and criminal laws. Now that that we have factored out homosexual activities, why not do the same with polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia? I do think that folks could use the same sort of reasoning that "liberated" adultery and homosexual sex from legal consequences.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:19:19 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #149 on: June 30, 2014, 11:18:22 AM »
Given also that a man is equivalent to a woman as well, the Old Testament Laws may also take this equality into account and it would be understandable that lesbianism which is simply the sexual feelings between two females would be the same as a man having sexual feelings for another man. Given this, it logically coincides with the perspective that the anti homosexual laws in the Old Testament are also directed towards women given the equality. Unless a male is superior to a female, then the the rule does not apply to lesbianism but that would simply just be sexist wouldn't it?


Given that the idea of "sexism" (whatever that means) being wrong is a modern phenomenon, it really shouldn't enter our minds when considering the intended meaning of ancient texts.

This is perhaps true but there are always exceptions to the rule. The Old Testament have numerous examples of women being in authority and even in the Book of Judith, being the heroine(Judith) that saves the day. So it should be noted that the Sacred Scriptures are not being sexist at all. Even if the New Testament mentions that wives must submit to their husbands, the husband must also submit to the wife by loving her and treating her as his own flesh and surely no sane person would simply treat their own flesh with disregard and inflict pain on it.

I swear, first you translate pais as "young male lover".  It's "boy" or "youth".  I am sure that it was used as a euphemism at times (most naughty words in most languages tend to be) but I would prefer to just use the primary translation rather than trying to slander our Lord as some kind of sodomite.  Then you start throwing words into the blessed St. Paul's mouth.  No where does he say for men to submit to their wives.  You can love without submission.  Christ does not obey the Church.  He'll die for it, yes, but not submit.

One more distortion of scripture and I will restart the Inquisition.  You have been warned.  

Now, if you do theology, I don't mind so much.  :)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2014, 11:31:44 AM »
We should first note that "young gay lover" is just a possible definition of the word "Pais" besides "Servant" or "children". We cannot simply make the assumption that the use of the word "pais" everywhere in Sacred Scriptures as being "young gay lover" especially when the word itself have multiple definitions.

And yet that's the one you jumped for. 

Quote
Hence, we must utilize the definition that is most suitable to the context of the verse. The two verses that refers to Jesus as "pais" simply translates as "child" because it is reference of Jesus being the Son of God, who is the Father. This natural as the Son is the child of the Father and the main context of the two verses is that they are praying to God. This would render the "Young gay lover" usage in this context as ridiculous and absurd, hence we know it cannot be the case and it must be either "servant" or "child" which both have a better fit. Some translations render "Pais" in the two verses as "Servant", the KJV renders it as "child".

OK...

Quote
In the context of the Centurion, while it may be argued that it could simply be his servant which in such an era, is simply a slave. Why would a Centurion who could easily find replacements request Jesus to heal his "Pais"? It would be more logical if that person is someone whom he love hence the appropriate attribution of the person the Centurion requested for Jesus to heal to be his lover given that the term, "young gay lover" is a possible meaning of "Pais". Despite this, it shouldn't be used as grounds to accept homosexuality, rather it should be used to accept the fact that Jesus loves all people regardless of sexual orientation.

So every time a man has "love" for another man, it's because they have sex.  Well, I would have you know that I was never molested by my father. 

Aren't you the fellow agonising in another thread about being coerced into buying a Protestant study Bible?  Under such circumstances, you are in no place to attempt theology.   

Yes, that's me.

Please understand that I'm not trying to attempt theology but I feel that homosexuality is an issue that we must address. If we don't, there would be those that would seek to take advantage of 'obscure' passages and verses of Sacred Scriptures for their own gain. Just as Luther and the Reformers had done so, we must not allow those that advocate homosexual unions to use our own Scriptures against us. This is why we need to clear some misunderstandings up and make sure that they are in line with Patristical Thought. I acknowledge that the Church Fathers unanimously disapprove of homosexuality. I do too, I just do not advocate for their discrimination and the passing of laws that breach their rights as human beings. I understand that Sacred Scripture is very clear on homosexuality be it gay or lesbian. However, my view on Jesus healing the Centurion's "Pais" is not one that shows that Jesus is cool with homosexuality, it shows that Jesus would love each one of us regardless of our Sins. We can agree on this point I think, remember, He died for our sake, so that we may be free of our disease of Sin that includes dying for each and every single one of us regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation.

I never said that when there is "love" between two men, there is "Sex", it is simply what the definition of "pais" is and the context of the situation that leads to my conclusion that is the person that is requested to be healed by Jesus is the "Young gay lover" of the Centurion. The Centurion would also done that out of this form of love which he and the person shared. It shouldn't be looked as I stressed out again as an excuse to accept gay marriage, Jesus never blessed their union, he simply wanted to heal the "pais" of the Centurion which would save his life.

Again, I stress out that "pais" could mean "Young gay lover" which is simply a definition of the other possible definition of the term. This is why while I did focus on this definition I said, "Can actually mean", I didn't say that it is the sole definition of the term. Also, I do not affirm or condone homosexual unions. I simply respect them as human beings. All human beings are sinful after all due to the Sinful nature inherited from the Fall.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #151 on: June 30, 2014, 11:37:27 AM »
This is perhaps true but there are always exceptions to the rule. The Old Testament have numerous examples of women being in authority and even in the Book of Judith, being the heroine(Judith) that saves the day. So it should be noted that the Sacred Scriptures are not being sexist at all. Even if the New Testament mentions that wives must submit to their husbands, the husband must also submit to the wife by loving her and treating her as his own flesh and surely no sane person would simply treat their own flesh with disregard and inflict pain on it.

It's a ridiculous strawman to suppose that opposing feminism means supporting wife-beating.


I would not say that I'm a feminist, but I affirm that women should be treated as equal to men. Since when did I said that anyways? I simply pointed to parts of Sacred Scriptures that affirm gender equality and nowhere did I ever mention anything about wife-beating. Just because one does not support feminism does not mean one would degrade or beat up women. While perhaps I may have made allusions to wife-beating in the last part of my point, I would say that I do not mean that an opposition of feminism is a supporter of wife-beating. Sacred Scriptures in nowhere affirms "Wife-Beating", yet it is definitely not feminist in nature.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:39:15 AM by sakura95 »
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,399
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2014, 11:41:07 AM »
Anyway, my question still remains, if there is any verse in the Old Testament, specially the Torah, that say female-female sexual relations is an abomination and both should be put to death. please share it with us.
Many parts of the Torah begin with the phrase, "Speak to the sons of Israel"; therefore, here are the passages that apply only to men.  The women are exempt:  http://legacy.biblegateway.com/keyword/?version=NASB&search=speak+to+the+sons+of+israel&searchtype=phrase&language1=en&spanbegin=1&spanend=73&resultspp=100&displayas=long&sort=bookorder
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:45:35 AM by Gamliel »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2014, 11:44:33 AM »
Please understand that I'm not trying to attempt theology but I feel that homosexuality is an issue that we must address. If we don't, there would be those that would seek to take advantage of 'obscure' passages and verses of Sacred Scriptures for their own gain. Just as Luther and the Reformers had done so, we must not allow those that advocate homosexual unions to use our own Scriptures against us. This is why we need to clear some misunderstandings up and make sure that they are in line with Patristical Thought.

Yes, clear up misunderstandings, not create them where they are not.  Addressing homosexuality does not require us to make up stuff about Scripture.

Quote
I acknowledge that the Church Fathers unanimously disapprove of homosexuality. I do too, I just do not advocate for their discrimination and the passing of laws that breach their rights as human beings. I understand that Sacred Scripture is very clear on homosexuality be it gay or lesbian.

OK.

Quote
However, my view on Jesus healing the Centurion's "Pais" is not one that shows that Jesus is cool with homosexuality, it shows that Jesus would love each one of us regardless of our Sins. We can agree on this point I think, remember, He died for our sake, so that we may be free of our disease of Sin that includes dying for each and every single one of us regardless of gender, race or sexual orientation.

But you are reading homosexuality and/or sin into the centurion's relationship with his servant.  Is that necessary, or just convenient?   

Quote
I never said that when there is "love" between two men, there is "Sex", it is simply what the definition of "pais" is and the context of the situation that leads to my conclusion that is the person that is requested to be healed by Jesus is the "Young gay lover" of the Centurion. The Centurion would also done that out of this form of love which he and the person shared. It shouldn't be looked as I stressed out again as an excuse to accept gay marriage, Jesus never blessed their union, he simply wanted to heal the "pais" of the Centurion which would save his life.

Again, I stress out that "pais" could mean "Young gay lover" which is simply a definition of the other possible definition of the term. This is why while I did focus on this definition I said, "Can actually mean", I didn't say that it is the sole definition of the term. Also, I do not affirm or condone homosexual unions. I simply respect them as human beings. All human beings are sinful after all due to the Sinful nature inherited from the Fall.

Sorry, buddy.  You seized on "one possible definition" as "simply what the definition of 'pais' is".  If you're going to play that fast and loose with Scripture, then read II Kings 2.23-25 and give thanks to God that he allows bears to be lesbians and even employs them, though they're active homosexuals, to eat the village children when they make fun of his friends. 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:45:50 AM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2014, 11:48:30 AM »
I would not say that I'm a feminist, but I affirm that women should be treated as equal to men. Since when did I said that anyways? I simply pointed to parts of Sacred Scriptures that affirm gender equality and nowhere did I ever mention anything about wife-beating. Just because one does not support feminism does not mean one would degrade or beat up women. While perhaps I may have made allusions to wife-beating in the last part of my point, I would say that I do not mean that an opposition of feminism is a supporter of wife-beating. Sacred Scriptures in nowhere affirms "Wife-Beating", yet it is definitely not feminist in nature.

Brother, if you believe that improvements in gender relations have been past in the past two hundred years, you're a feminist.
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2014, 11:50:34 AM »
Given also that a man is equivalent to a woman as well, the Old Testament Laws may also take this equality into account and it would be understandable that lesbianism which is simply the sexual feelings between two females would be the same as a man having sexual feelings for another man. Given this, it logically coincides with the perspective that the anti homosexual laws in the Old Testament are also directed towards women given the equality. Unless a male is superior to a female, then the the rule does not apply to lesbianism but that would simply just be sexist wouldn't it?


Given that the idea of "sexism" (whatever that means) being wrong is a modern phenomenon, it really shouldn't enter our minds when considering the intended meaning of ancient texts.

This is perhaps true but there are always exceptions to the rule. The Old Testament have numerous examples of women being in authority and even in the Book of Judith, being the heroine(Judith) that saves the day. So it should be noted that the Sacred Scriptures are not being sexist at all. Even if the New Testament mentions that wives must submit to their husbands, the husband must also submit to the wife by loving her and treating her as his own flesh and surely no sane person would simply treat their own flesh with disregard and inflict pain on it.

I swear, first you translate pais as "young male lover".  It's "boy" or "youth".  I am sure that it was used as a euphemism at times (most naughty words in most languages tend to be) but I would prefer to just use the primary translation rather than trying to slander our Lord as some kind of sodomite.  Then you start throwing words into the blessed St. Paul's mouth.  No where does he say for men to submit to their wives.  You can love without submission.  Christ does not obey the Church.  He'll die for it, yes, but not submit.

One more distortion of scripture and I will restart the Inquisition.  You have been warned.  

Please, just because the "Pais" is a "young male lover" doesn't mean that just because Jesus healed him, He is a Sodomite. If anyone is sick and asked for my help, I would try to help that person to the best of my ability. It doesn't matter whether that person is a homosexual or not. My main point on that translation is simply to show that Jesus Loves us all despite our shortcomings and traits. I do not condone or advocate homosexuality through adopting this interpretation which is just only a possible interpretation of many out there. Maybe the Centurion is a compassionate guy at heart, maybe since "Pais" can mean "Child", it could simply be the Centurion worried about his son. The "Young male lover" is simply one of the possible definitions out there for "pais".

Christ also loves humanity to the point of willingly lowering himself to its level and dying and suffering for it. Jesus also loves His Church but the Church submits to Him but that doesn't mean that the Church is being "degraded", it is because the Church is a created entity, created and founded by God Himself which is why Christ does not submit to it because by nature, He is superior as the Creator, yet, He still loves the Church, guides it and would even willingly give His own life up for it.

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue for homosexual unions or its acceptance, I'm only for the rights of not discriminating them simply because of a disorder they have to suffer from.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,759
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2014, 11:51:36 AM »
Just because Christ forgave a whore doesnt mean He enjoys Miley Cyrus' "music".

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #157 on: June 30, 2014, 11:53:08 AM »
Please, just because the "Pais" is a "young male lover" doesn't mean that just because Jesus healed him, He is a Sodomite. If anyone is sick and asked for my help, I would try to help that person to the best of my ability. It doesn't matter whether that person is a homosexual or not. My main point on that translation is simply to show that Jesus Loves us all despite our shortcomings and traits. I do not condone or advocate homosexuality through adopting this interpretation which is just only a possible interpretation of many out there. Maybe the Centurion is a compassionate guy at heart, maybe since "Pais" can mean "Child", it could simply be the Centurion worried about his son. The "Young male lover" is simply one of the possible definitions out there for "pais".

Christ also loves humanity to the point of willingly lowering himself to its level and dying and suffering for it. Jesus also loves His Church but the Church submits to Him but that doesn't mean that the Church is being "degraded", it is because the Church is a created entity, created and founded by God Himself which is why Christ does not submit to it because by nature, He is superior as the Creator, yet, He still loves the Church, guides it and would even willingly give His own life up for it.

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue for homosexual unions or its acceptance, I'm only for the rights of not discriminating them simply because of a disorder they have to suffer from.

Do you really not see it?
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #158 on: June 30, 2014, 12:01:19 PM »
I would not say that I'm a feminist, but I affirm that women should be treated as equal to men. Since when did I said that anyways? I simply pointed to parts of Sacred Scriptures that affirm gender equality and nowhere did I ever mention anything about wife-beating. Just because one does not support feminism does not mean one would degrade or beat up women. While perhaps I may have made allusions to wife-beating in the last part of my point, I would say that I do not mean that an opposition of feminism is a supporter of wife-beating. Sacred Scriptures in nowhere affirms "Wife-Beating", yet it is definitely not feminist in nature.

Brother, if you believe that improvements in gender relations have been past in the past two hundred years, you're a feminist.

There is an improvement whether you like it or not. I would admit that prior to this, I'm not familiar with "feminism", it is something I didn't bother to look into since I didn't have an interest in the topic. If however, I by believing that there have been improvement in gender relations then I would actually say yes, women are granted rights that men wouldn't normally have such as "education" or "voting", so I suppose you can call me that but only in the sense that I advocate that men and women are equal and should have equal rights. I do not believe in either gender having more rights over the other. while technically, male and female are seen as equals, there is still room for improvement. We still hear plenty of degrading jokes about women "belonging in the kitchen" or "women not supposed to drive". I have seen a couple of these on the Internet with hardly negative comments about them and their nature. In this aspect, I say that we have to let go of that impression as a society and acknowledge that women are able to be of any profession not just confined in the kitchen.

Henceforth, I suppose I'm a feminist but only in terms of gender equality and the belief of men and women having equal rights. Nothing more, nothing less.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,939
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #159 on: June 30, 2014, 12:04:08 PM »
Please, just because the "Pais" is a "young male lover" doesn't mean that just because Jesus healed him, He is a Sodomite. If anyone is sick and asked for my help, I would try to help that person to the best of my ability. It doesn't matter whether that person is a homosexual or not. My main point on that translation is simply to show that Jesus Loves us all despite our shortcomings and traits. I do not condone or advocate homosexuality through adopting this interpretation which is just only a possible interpretation of many out there. Maybe the Centurion is a compassionate guy at heart, maybe since "Pais" can mean "Child", it could simply be the Centurion worried about his son. The "Young male lover" is simply one of the possible definitions out there for "pais".

Christ also loves humanity to the point of willingly lowering himself to its level and dying and suffering for it. Jesus also loves His Church but the Church submits to Him but that doesn't mean that the Church is being "degraded", it is because the Church is a created entity, created and founded by God Himself which is why Christ does not submit to it because by nature, He is superior as the Creator, yet, He still loves the Church, guides it and would even willingly give His own life up for it.

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue for homosexual unions or its acceptance, I'm only for the rights of not discriminating them simply because of a disorder they have to suffer from.

Do you really not see it?


fun with synonyms in translation.....

 :laugh:

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #160 on: June 30, 2014, 12:05:48 PM »
Please, just because the "Pais" is a "young male lover" doesn't mean that just because Jesus healed him, He is a Sodomite. If anyone is sick and asked for my help, I would try to help that person to the best of my ability. It doesn't matter whether that person is a homosexual or not. My main point on that translation is simply to show that Jesus Loves us all despite our shortcomings and traits. I do not condone or advocate homosexuality through adopting this interpretation which is just only a possible interpretation of many out there. Maybe the Centurion is a compassionate guy at heart, maybe since "Pais" can mean "Child", it could simply be the Centurion worried about his son. The "Young male lover" is simply one of the possible definitions out there for "pais".

Christ also loves humanity to the point of willingly lowering himself to its level and dying and suffering for it. Jesus also loves His Church but the Church submits to Him but that doesn't mean that the Church is being "degraded", it is because the Church is a created entity, created and founded by God Himself which is why Christ does not submit to it because by nature, He is superior as the Creator, yet, He still loves the Church, guides it and would even willingly give His own life up for it.

Please understand, I'm not trying to argue for homosexual unions or its acceptance, I'm only for the rights of not discriminating them simply because of a disorder they have to suffer from.

Do you really not see it?

Again, I do get your point, but I would acknowledge that I cannot say for certain that this is the correct definition and context for the use of the word "pais" as I have mentioned and explained in that statement I was making. I would admit that there is a significant possibility of me being wrong on this but if I'm right, it cannot be seen as Jesus being totally fine with homosexual unions and should be interpreted as Jesus loving and reaching out to each and every one of us, despite our sinful nature. Homosexuality is after all, the product of the Fall.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #161 on: June 30, 2014, 12:06:36 PM »
There is an improvement whether you like it or not. I would admit that prior to this, I'm not familiar with "feminism", it is something I didn't bother to look into since I didn't have an interest in the topic. If however, I by believing that there have been improvement in gender relations then I would actually say yes, women are granted rights that men wouldn't normally have such as "education" or "voting", so I suppose you can call me that but only in the sense that I advocate that men and women are equal and should have equal rights. I do not believe in either gender having more rights over the other. while technically, male and female are seen as equals, there is still room for improvement. We still hear plenty of degrading jokes about women "belonging in the kitchen" or "women not supposed to drive". I have seen a couple of these on the Internet with hardly negative comments about them and their nature. In this aspect, I say that we have to let go of that impression as a society and acknowledge that women are able to be of any profession not just confined in the kitchen.

Henceforth, I suppose I'm a feminist but only in terms of gender equality and the belief of men and women having equal rights. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you really believe that nearly 1800 years of Christians were wrong about the proper relations between the genders, and a pack of anti-Christian revolutionaries were needed to enlighten the Church about the matter, then I'm really not sure what to say to you. But I suppose that's pretty much everyone these days.
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #162 on: June 30, 2014, 12:08:18 PM »
Just because Christ forgave a whore doesnt mean He enjoys Miley Cyrus' "music".

PP

Exactly and just because Jesus healed a "Young male Lover" doesn't make him a supporter of homosexuality. As I make this statement, I acknowledge that I could be wrong about the whole "Pais" thing since there are other different definitions of the term.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2014, 12:11:02 PM »
Again, I do get your point, but I would acknowledge that I cannot say for certain that this is the correct definition and context for the use of the word "pais" as I have mentioned and explained in that statement I was making. I would admit that there is a significant possibility of me being wrong on this but if I'm right, it cannot be seen as Jesus being totally fine with homosexual unions and should be interpreted as Jesus loving and reaching out to each and every one of us, despite our sinful nature. Homosexuality is after all, the product of the Fall.

Surely you can highlight this message without bastardising Scripture.  There are plenty of great passages from which to pick.  The Reformation Study Bible just might prove helpful in your search.  
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The Purple Demon is gonna get you if you don't watch out!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,132
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2014, 12:20:38 PM »
Before everyone continues to murder sakura, I think what he is trying to say is that even though there is no proof that the centurion's "pais" was, in fact, a homosexual, and even if he was, Christ demonstrated His love toward him. I see no controversy in that position.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2014, 12:25:54 PM »
Before everyone continues to murder sakura, I think what he is trying to say is that even though there is no proof that the centurion's "pais" was, in fact, a homosexual, and even if he was, Christ demonstrated His love toward him. I see no controversy in that position.

I see no controversy in that.  I see controversy in intentionally misrepresenting Scripture to make a point that can be gleaned from an authentic representation of Scripture.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,939
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2014, 12:33:34 PM »
Indeed. There are enough examples of the mercy shown to sinful people, that forcing a particular translation of a word, in order to show one more....is un-needed and thus one of those cases where people started that interpretation because it supports a cause.


Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2014, 12:35:10 PM »
There is an improvement whether you like it or not. I would admit that prior to this, I'm not familiar with "feminism", it is something I didn't bother to look into since I didn't have an interest in the topic. If however, I by believing that there have been improvement in gender relations then I would actually say yes, women are granted rights that men wouldn't normally have such as "education" or "voting", so I suppose you can call me that but only in the sense that I advocate that men and women are equal and should have equal rights. I do not believe in either gender having more rights over the other. while technically, male and female are seen as equals, there is still room for improvement. We still hear plenty of degrading jokes about women "belonging in the kitchen" or "women not supposed to drive". I have seen a couple of these on the Internet with hardly negative comments about them and their nature. In this aspect, I say that we have to let go of that impression as a society and acknowledge that women are able to be of any profession not just confined in the kitchen.

Henceforth, I suppose I'm a feminist but only in terms of gender equality and the belief of men and women having equal rights. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you really believe that nearly 1800 years of Christians were wrong about the proper relations between the genders, and a pack of anti-Christian revolutionaries were needed to enlighten the Church about the matter, then I'm really not sure what to say to you. But I suppose that's pretty much everyone these days.

I would argue that Christianity is actually responsible for improved gender relations. Many of our Saints are women, even our greatest Saint is a woman. Also women have played a significant role in Christianity's survival and growth since Apostolic Times. It is through the establishment of the monastic tradition in Christianity that women are able to gain access to education and literacy. Despite these achievements though, it should be noted that there are Church Fathers who have a negative view of women though this could simply stem from the fact that Eve was the one who ate from the Tree in the Garden of Eden, hence the negative reception.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,658
    • Alaska Volcanoes
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2014, 12:37:18 PM »
Don't forget, girls have cooties.
He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

--

And if I seem a little strange, well, that's because I am

--

If you wish to contact me, please use the information in my profile.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • The Purple Demon is gonna get you if you don't watch out!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,132
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2014, 12:38:04 PM »
Don't forget, girls have cooties.
+1
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2014, 12:39:51 PM »
Again, I do get your point, but I would acknowledge that I cannot say for certain that this is the correct definition and context for the use of the word "pais" as I have mentioned and explained in that statement I was making. I would admit that there is a significant possibility of me being wrong on this but if I'm right, it cannot be seen as Jesus being totally fine with homosexual unions and should be interpreted as Jesus loving and reaching out to each and every one of us, despite our sinful nature. Homosexuality is after all, the product of the Fall.

Surely you can highlight this message without bastardising Scripture.  There are plenty of great passages from which to pick.  The Reformation Study Bible just might prove helpful in your search.  

Yes there are plenty of others. But I acknowledge that I can be wrong about my interpretation of that passage in Sacred Scripture. However, if I'm right, we definitely cannot immediately rush to the conclusion of homosexuality being accepted by Jesus.

I would have to close my eyes at some points in the Reformation Study Bible since it is heretical at parts.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2014, 12:45:18 PM »
Before everyone continues to murder sakura, I think what he is trying to say is that even though there is no proof that the centurion's "pais" was, in fact, a homosexual, and even if he was, Christ demonstrated His love toward him. I see no controversy in that position.

I see no controversy in that.  I see controversy in intentionally misrepresenting Scripture to make a point that can be gleaned from an authentic representation of Scripture.

If I have created the impression that I'm misrepresenting Scripture or is doing so then I apologize for my mistake. It is not my intention to alter the Truth contained in Scripture after all. We can all agree that Scripture is mysterious and deep. It is not some shallow piece of literature one can just read through and understand just as the Protestants do. Given this, there would be many confusing things and aspects of Scripture which we are unsure of. I would admit that I myself is unsure of the use of the word "Pais" but given the multiple definitions of it including one being "Young male lover", I would stress that it could simply be reference of the person being the Centurion's own child given that this is also a definition of "Pais". End of the day though, I can't be too sure but what I can be certain of is that if "Pais" do mean "Young Male Lover" in that context, it does not mean Jesus being totally cool with homosexuality.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2014, 12:53:28 PM »
I would argue that Christianity is actually responsible for improved gender relations. Many of our Saints are women, even our greatest Saint is a woman. Also women have played a significant role in Christianity's survival and growth since Apostolic Times. It is through the establishment of the monastic tradition in Christianity that women are able to gain access to education and literacy. Despite these achievements though, it should be noted that there are Church Fathers who have a negative view of women though this could simply stem from the fact that Eve was the one who ate from the Tree in the Garden of Eden, hence the negative reception.

I completely agree with you here. Women were often treated very poorly in pagan cultures (with the notable exception of certain Germanic tribes, according to Tacitus), and they still often are in Islam. Christianity got it right. Where we differ is that you think the logical conclusion of this noble Christian idea is equality, which is an idea which came out of non-Christian and frequently anti-Christian philosophy not more than 250 years ago, while I am in favour of respecting and loving women as women, as distinct and separate from men, with a different set of rights and duties. I firmly believe in precisely what St Paul says about gender relations (though I will grant that it is not always shameful for a woman to speak in church  ;) ).
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,135
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2014, 01:13:09 PM »
I would argue that Christianity is actually responsible for improved gender relations. Many of our Saints are women, even our greatest Saint is a woman. Also women have played a significant role in Christianity's survival and growth since Apostolic Times. It is through the establishment of the monastic tradition in Christianity that women are able to gain access to education and literacy. Despite these achievements though, it should be noted that there are Church Fathers who have a negative view of women though this could simply stem from the fact that Eve was the one who ate from the Tree in the Garden of Eden, hence the negative reception.

I completely agree with you here. Women were often treated very poorly in pagan cultures (with the notable exception of certain Germanic tribes, according to Tacitus), and they still often are in Islam. Christianity got it right. Where we differ is that you think the logical conclusion of this noble Christian idea is equality, which is an idea which came out of non-Christian and frequently anti-Christian philosophy not more than 250 years ago, while I am in favour of respecting and loving women as women, as distinct and separate from men, with a different set of rights and duties. I firmly believe in precisely what St Paul says about gender relations (though I will grant that it is not always shameful for a woman to speak in church  ;) ).

While perhaps this is true, we must admit that women deserve education and the right to vote as well. Generally, in the secular sense, equal rights as men. In the religious sense such as Christianity, their roles and rights are equal but their duties are different. We can indeed accept what St Paul have to say on gender relations but in church.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,245
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2014, 01:35:52 PM »
Don't forget, girls have cooties.

I will never forget the victims of the cootiecaust.  Some of my best friends have fallen victim to the Waffen-NagNag and their honey-do gas chambers.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2014, 01:38:17 PM »
While perhaps this is true, we must admit that women deserve education and the right to vote as well. Generally, in the secular sense, equal rights as men. In the religious sense such as Christianity, their roles and rights are equal but their duties are different. We can indeed accept what St Paul have to say on gender relations but in church.

I don't think it's right to separate church and the world outside church like that, brother. While I agree that there is a certain separation in the sense that not every sin should be illegal (what good does it do to punish drug addicts? and how do you ban pride?  ;D), we are Christians everywhere, not just in church. Why would we encourage secular law to discourage Christian behaviour, as it does now in so many ways, but particularly as regards gender relations? If we're to go with St Paul and say women should have no authority over men, why should this end at the door of the church or the Christian home?

Further, it's entirely possible to make purely secular and pragmatic arguments against equality. This business of women voting, having careers instead of children, "sexual liberty", and so on, goes inseparably hand in hand with abortion, divorce, the raising of children without their fathers, sexual promiscuity, and all manner of other social ills which cause strife and suffering between the genders. Take note that all of these things come from one and the same movement, and that that movement itself proudly trumpets that they are inseparable.
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,759
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #176 on: June 30, 2014, 02:18:42 PM »
Don't forget, girls have cooties.

I will never forget the victims of the cootiecaust.  Some of my best friends have fallen victim to the Waffen-NagNag and their honey-do gas chambers.
Circle-circle-dot-dot, fools. Im safe.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Porter ODoran

  • Erst Amish Appalachian
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,149
  • Faith should; hope could; love would
    • Facebook page
  • Faith: GOAA
  • Jurisdiction: Catechumen
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #177 on: June 30, 2014, 10:30:46 PM »
This thread started crazy and got crazier, and then crazier.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

Offline Raylight

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,842
  • Faith: Christian.
  • Jurisdiction: Anglican.
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #178 on: June 30, 2014, 10:39:13 PM »
This thread started crazy and got crazier, and then crazier.

You are in OC.net, duuuuh.
I gave it another chance but it failed. I'm no longer posting on this forum.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Section Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,116
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
Re: Gay Marriage...I don't care.
« Reply #179 on: June 30, 2014, 11:09:03 PM »
This thread started crazy and got crazier, and then crazier.

You are in OC.net, duuuuh.

And also with you.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.