Cross tattoo

[fennik]

You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

[Fr. George]

Yes, I do think its wrong... good intention, bad execution.

[Bogoliubtsy]

You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

Nope.

[fennik]

Well the cross represents Gods love for you and everyone, enough love to have his only son crusified so that we can be saved.

[Robert]

Depends on if you're female, attractive, and if it's in the right location.
 :thumbsup:

[EkhristosAnesti]

Well if you haven't heard the Coptic Orthodox tattoo cross story, here it is succintly:

It was compulsory government (Islamic) policy; that all Egyptian Copts have their right wrist tattood in order that they may be easily identified and distinguished as the kaffirs amongst the Muslims. It replaced a former method whereby the Copts had to wear very large crosses around their necks (weighing up to 50 pounds), which gave them the nickname "blue bones" (3adma zarqa) amongst the Muslims, because the cord of the cross would bruise the clavicle bones.

Whilst the Islamic government's imposition of the cross tattoo was short lived, it became a sign of solidarity, and hence Copts up until today have willingly got them, for the purpose of distinguishing themselves as "kaffirs 4 Christ" in an unfaithful world, and in remembrance of what our ancestors had to go through.

Then again, there are those who simply get it to look "cool".....unfortunately....

Peace

[MsGuided]

Well if you haven't heard the Coptic Orthodox tattoo cross story, here it is succintly:

An Armenian friend of mine has this as well.

[ania]

I think it's fine if done for the right intention.  (Have thought of it myself several times, as I tend to loose the crosses that I wear around my neck.)

[Salpy]

It is customary among Armenians to get cross tattoos when visiting Jerusalem.  M᠍y great grandmother had one on the back of her hand.

There is an interesting story about these religious tattoos in my family:

My grandmother's two first counsins, Zabel and Araxie, had tattoos of the Face of Christ put on their arms as small children when they visited Jerusalem, before the Genocide.  During the Genocide, they were separated after their parents were killed.  Zabel wound up in an orphanage and eventually joined her relatives in the United States as an adult.  Araxie was taken in and adopted by a Turkish family, who did not want to see her killed.

For years after the Genocide people would send letters to Armenian churches all over the world looking for lost relatives. The letters went something like "My name is _______.  My parents' names were _____.  I am from the village of _________. etc."  These letters would be read after the Liturgy and people would stay and listen to them to see if they could find lost relatives.  One day Zabel, who was living in the Eastern United States at the time, heard a letter from a woman who sounded like she could be her sister.  She wrote back to the woman, saying "Tell me nothing else about yourself, just draw a picture of what is on your arm and send it to me."  The woman sent Zabel the picture of the Face of Christ which was on both their arms.  The two of them were thus reunited.

[Justinian]

I have an IC XC NIKA with a cross tattooed on my left arm, a three bar slvonic cross tattooed on my right forearm and a byzantine eagle elbem tattooed on my right shoulder. I also heard somewhere about Russian Orthodox Christians melting down tires and tattooing themselves with religous images with the rubber in the gulags. And St. Czar Nicholas II has dragons tattooed on botha rms. So i cant see it ebing wrong...........

In XC,
Justinian

[Stavro]

It is customary among Armenians to get cross tattoos when visiting Jerusalem.  My great grandmother had one on the back of her hand. 

There is an interesting story about these religious tattoos in my family:

My grandmother's two first counsins, Zabel and Araxie, had tattoos of the Face of Christ put on their arms as small children when they visited Jerusalem, before the Genocide.  During the Genocide, they were separated after their parents were killed.  Zabel wound up in an orphanage and eventually joined her relatives in the United States as an adult.  Araxie was taken in and adopted by a Turkish family, who did not want to see her killed.

For years after the Genocide people would send letters to Armenian churches all over the world looking for lost relatives.  The letters went something like "My name is _______.  My parents' names were _____.  I am from the village of _________. etc."  These letters would be read after the Liturgy and people would stay and listen to them to see if they could find lost relatives.  One day Zabel, who was living in the Eastern United States at the time, heard a letter from a woman who sounded like she could be her sister.  She  wrote back to the woman, saying "Tell me nothing else about yourself, just draw a picture of what is on your arm and send it to me."  The woman sent Zabel the picture of the Face of Christ which was on both their arms.  The two of them were thus reunited.

Very touching story. If you don't mind asking : Was Araxie brought up as a christian after the Turkish family adopted her ?

[Salpy]

Unfortunately no, Araxie was not raised as a Christian.  Her adoptive parents raised her as a Muslim Turk.  From what I understand, by the time she found her sister Zabel she was already married to a Turk and had children by him.  I thus have Turkish relatives who are descended from Araxie.  I have a cousin who keeps up with them and once in a great while they visit.  A few years ago my parents and I took one of them out to a restuarant while she and her husband were visiting my cousin.

The strange thing is, although I was aware that we had Turkish relatives, I never knew the full story until about 10 years ago.

I found out about 10 years ago when Zabel died.  M᠍y mom doesn't like funerals and sent me to go in her stead.  I went, but didn't expect to feel much emotion, as I was not close to Zabel.  In fact, I kind of looked upon her as being a silly woman, a bit of a character.  When I knew her as an old woman, she used to go around in these tall, blond beehive wigs.  She was a bit nosy and I never took her very seriously.

At the funeral, my cousin (the one who keeps in touch with the Turkish relatives) got up and told the story of Zabel's life, including all the horrible things that happened during the Genocide.  She saw her parents die.  Her dad's throat was slit in front of her and her sister by Turkish soldiers after he refused to convert to Islam.  Among other things, my cousin told the story of how Zabel found her sister after so many years.

When I got home from the funeral, I confronted my mother: "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THESE THINGS?"  My mom insisted she never knew and didn't really want to discuss any of it.  It could be that Mom really didn't know.  A lot of the older people in my family didn't like discussing the Genocide or what life was like over there prior to it.  I can't describe the feeling.  It is almost like it was shameful and no one wanted to acknowledge that people in our family were victims.

I wish that I had known all these stories about Zabel before her death.  I would have taken her more seriously and not ridiculed her beehive wig.  After all she went through, she deserved to wear whatever she wanted on her head!  In any case, it taught me to never judge a book by its cover.  If I had taken her seriously and sat down and talked with her, I get the feeling I would have been greatly enriched.

[Stavro]

It is enriching indeed,Salpy. God bless you and your family and all your relatives.

[Quinault]

Wow, that is an amazing story Salpy.

[Irish Hermit]

You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

A streetkid-solvent abuser has lived on our church premises for many years.  It's a long story - a lifetime of physical and sexual abuse from his "fathers" in multiple foster homes.  In other words, more sinned against than sinning.

Some years back I wanted to get him a birthday present - his name is Nicholas and he was born on Saint Nicholas day.  In the past any presents, such as walkmans, have been stolen from him by his street "friends" within a few hours.

He loves Irish things and he is a Christian in his own way, comes to church venerates the icons, says his prayers.  So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

[SolEX01]

So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

[Riddikulus]

So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Why would you assume that the purchase of the cross tattoo excludes Fr Ambrose from also feeding and clothing Nicholas?

[Riddikulus]

You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

No, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[ozgeorge]

^nor do I (but then, I have one!)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11476.msg155633.html#msg155633

[Riddikulus]

^nor do I (but then, I have one!)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11476.msg155633.html#msg155633

I sort of fancy a Celtic Cross tattoo for myself, but as I'm a bit long in the tooth, I feel it might be a bit silly. 

[Quinault]

So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Actually being a former street kid myself I would say a tattoo is ideal. It can't be stolen or sold for drugs. And since it is a cross it is a good reminder of the love of God shown him thru one of God's servants. Street kids are quite adept at getting fed, I know from experience. You would be amazed at what people throw away.

[Quinault]

^nor do I (but then, I have one!)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11476.msg155633.html#msg155633

Did you get your double headed eagle? Do you have pix?

[Irish Hermit]

So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Not at all.  I've fed and clothed and housed Nick for about 2 decades, as well as helping other street people.  I live in the central city in the rundown area and there are lots of needs and demands.  Kind of overwhelming at times.

The cross means a lot to him.  Very few people are kind to him or show him any affection.  The cross is a tangible way of saying that someone cares.

I think we should not apply a too forensic standard to the charitable use of our money.   People will always spend money on Christmas and birthday presents for family and friends.  Many people come to Baptisms with gold crosses for their godchild, purchased at the local Greek shop.  Such crosses can be more expensive that the tattoo. They could feed several families for a fortnight.  But it would be really rude to suggest to them that it would have been a better pastoral use to give the money to the soup kitchen. 

Ditto goes for the enormously expensive vestments and crosses and panagias worn by bishops and priests.  I remember that one set of vestments for a visit to Moscow for Metropolitan Herman cost $23,000 !!  A couple of hundred dollars for a very nice Celtic cross seems quite reasonable.   

[Irish Hermit]

^nor do I (but then, I have one!)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11476.msg155633.html#msg155633

Got a pic?

[Quinault]

Click on the link to see his tattoo.

[Irish Hermit]

Click on the link to see his tattoo.

I saw the IC XC Cross but I was looking for a double-headed eagle?

[ialmisry]

Well if you haven't heard the Coptic Orthodox tattoo cross story, here it is succintly:

It was compulsory government (Islamic) policy; that all Egyptian Copts have their right wrist tattood in order that they may be easily identified and distinguished as the kaffirs amongst the Muslims. It replaced a former method whereby the Copts had to wear very large crosses around their necks (weighing up to 50 pounds), which gave them the nickname "blue bones" (3adma zarqa) amongst the Muslims, because the cord of the cross would bruise the clavicle bones.

Whilst the Islamic government's imposition of the cross tattoo was short lived, it became a sign of solidarity, and hence Copts up until today have willingly got them, for the purpose of distinguishing themselves as "kaffirs 4 Christ" in an unfaithful world, and in remembrance of what our ancestors had to go through.

Then again, there are those who simply get it to look "cool".....unfortunately....

Peace

The Copts had their hands branded with a cross when they paid their jizya poll tax, to show you paid (it also marked you for lynching). When the muslims stopped doing it, the Copts started, of their own volition, tattoo themselves on the hand with a cross. A Copt showing me his Cross pointed out "the muslims some are from Saudi Arabia. They are a foreigner here. Some their grandfather was Copt but converted. They belong here, but they are weak. My grandfather and his grandfather [pointing to the Cross on his own hand] were strong. This is the proof that they were strong. Ever since the time of the Apostles, every generation until today, my ancestors were willing to die for this. I am willing to die for this." Talk about cool.  Not an empty fear in Egypt nowadays.

[SolEX01]

Not at all.  I've fed and clothed and housed Nick for about 2 decades, as well as helping other street people.  I live in the central city in the rundown area and there are lots of needs and demands.  Kind of overwhelming at times.

The cross means a lot to him.  Very few people are kind to him or show him any affection.  The cross is a tangible way of saying that someone cares.

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

I think we should not apply a too forensic standard to the charitable use of our money.   People will always spend money on Christmas and birthday presents for family and friends.  Many people come to Baptisms with gold crosses for their godchild, purchased at the local Greek shop.  Such crosses can be more expensive that the tattoo. They could feed several families for a fortnight.  But it would be really rude to suggest to them that it would have been a better pastoral use to give the money to the soup kitchen.

I don't feel that supporting the poor is a rude idea.  I was in a similar position as Nick and my Priest didn't take me to the local tattoo parlor so I could feel better about myself.  Some times, the little things count more than the big things.  While I admit that we are going to disagree on tattoos, man cannot live on ink alone.   

Ditto goes for the enormously expensive vestments and crosses and panagias worn by bishops and priests.  I remember that one set of vestments for a visit to Moscow for Metropolitan Herman cost $23,000 !!  A couple of hundred dollars for a very nice Celtic cross seems quite reasonable.   

A couple of hundred dollars also purchases warm clothes and a couple of warm meals.

If the cost of making Hierarchical vestments is $23,000, consider the price of gold and the price of the expertise to make such a vestment.  Not many people are making Hierarchical vestments in their homes these days....

[ialmisry]

Not at all.  I've fed and clothed and housed Nick for about 2 decades, as well as helping other street people.  I live in the central city in the rundown area and there are lots of needs and demands.  Kind of overwhelming at times.

The cross means a lot to him.  Very few people are kind to him or show him any affection.  The cross is a tangible way of saying that someone cares.

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

I think we should not apply a too forensic standard to the charitable use of our money.   People will always spend money on Christmas and birthday presents for family and friends.  Many people come to Baptisms with gold crosses for their godchild, purchased at the local Greek shop.  Such crosses can be more expensive that the tattoo. They could feed several families for a fortnight.  But it would be really rude to suggest to them that it would have been a better pastoral use to give the money to the soup kitchen.

I don't feel that supporting the poor is a rude idea.  I was in a similar position as Nick and my Priest didn't take me to the local tattoo parlor so I could feel better about myself.  Some times, the little things count more than the big things.  While I admit that we are going to disagree on tattoos, man cannot live on ink alone.

Or bread alone.

Ditto goes for the enormously expensive vestments and crosses and panagias worn by bishops and priests.  I remember that one set of vestments for a visit to Moscow for Metropolitan Herman cost $23,000 !!  A couple of hundred dollars for a very nice Celtic cross seems quite reasonable.   

A couple of hundred dollars also purchases warm clothes and a couple of warm meals.

If the cost of making Hierarchical vestments is $23,000, consider the price of gold and the price of the expertise to make such a vestment.  Not many people are making Hierarchical vestments in their homes these days....

This is the same mentality I'm afraid that imposed the luxury tax on yachts in the early 90's.  The result?  The industry collapsed, and brought down whole economies in the North East.  In other words, you had more poor to buy warm clothes and warm meals for.

[Irish Hermit]

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

Dear SolEX01,

God knows.    I've given away dozens and dozens of icon prints.  Whether the recipients are brought closer to Christ, I do not know.  But I'll go on giving them out anyway.

[Irish Hermit]

I don't feel that supporting the poor is a rude idea.

I never said that supporting the poor was a rude idea.  What a thought!   What I said was that it would be rude to tell a man who has purchased an expensive gold cross for the baptism of his godchild that he was not showing enough pastoral sense and he should have given the money to the soup kitchen instead.  A bit like you are telling me about this tattoo of Nicholas.

I was in a similar position as Nick and my Priest didn't take me to the local tattoo parlor so I could feel better about myself.  Some times, the little things count more than the big things. 

Nick has lived on church premises for 20 years.    Under the stairs in an old house beside the church which accommodates Russian shipjumpers and refugees.

I don't understand why this matter is of so much concern?   Why are you placing me on the backfoot and implying that I did something wrong and un-Christian and not what your priest would do?  Surely you must have given a person a gift?

[SolEX01]

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

Dear SolEX01,

God knows.    I've given away dozens and dozens of icon prints.  Whether the recipients are brought closer to Christ, I do not know.  But I'll go on giving them out anyway.

Father, tattoos or icon prints or both?

Anyway, my Priest handed my estranged wife and me an icon print as well at the 40 day blessing of our son.  Six months later when I was down and out and despondent, I was ashamed to speak with him.  However, I do not have a permanent mark on my body just as I do not have the icon Print.  I do not understand why there is a need to inflict pain, like the tattooing process, to supposedly bring one closer to Christ?   

[Quinault]

"inflict pain"

He didn't FORCE the kid to have a tattoo, he obviously wanted it.

[Quinault]

Pain is in the body of each person. My septum piercing didn't hurt much to me, but many people think it is awful.

[SolEX01]

I never said that supporting the poor was a rude idea.  What a thought!   What I said was that it would be rude to tell a man who has purchased an expensive gold cross for the baptism of his godchild that he was not showing enough pastoral sense and he should have given the money to the soup kitchen instead.  A bit like you are telling me about this tattoo of Nicholas.

Father, I lost my baptismal cross and it was sterling silver rather than gold on the few occasions that I saw the cross as a child.

While a wooden, marble, etc. baptismal cross would serve the same spiritual purpose as gold or silver, we know that Christ in the manger received gift of gold which is symbolic enough and does not require pastoral concern

Nick has lived on church premises for 20 years.    Under the stairs in an old house beside the church which accommodates Russian shipjumpers and refugees.

I don't understand why this matter is of so much concern?   Why are you placing me on the backfoot and implying that I did something wrong and un-Christian and not what your priest would do?  Surely you must have given a person a gift?

We are on topic discussing the OP's appropriateness of having a tattoo and your admission on buying a tattoo for someone.  All I asked if it was appropriate to purchase a tattoo as a pastoral concern.  Nothing more.

[SolEX01]

"inflict pain"

He didn't FORCE the kid to have a tattoo, he obviously wanted it.

The kid wanted the tattoo and Father Ambrose paid for said tattoo; Hence, Father Ambrose directly financed the infliction of pain on someone else.

Edited for clarification.

[Veniamin]

"inflict pain"

He didn't FORCE the kid to have a tattoo, he obviously wanted it.

The kid wanted the tattoo and Father Ambrose paid for said tattoo; Hence, Father Ambrose directly financed the infliction of pain on someone else.

Edited for clarification.

I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

 

Give it a rest, already.

[Quinault]

My godparents wanted to get me a gold cross. I hate yellow gold so I insisted on a silver one. But even silver crosses for an adult are pretty expensive.

[SolEX01]

I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

Depends on the surgery ... Anyway, nice try.   

Give it a rest, already.

Give it a rest?  Is it OK for Orthodox Clergy to finance the purchase of tattoos, which require the infliction of pain, as part of Orthodox Christian ministry?   

[Quinault]

My good friend finds getting a tattoo relaxing rather than very painful actually.

[Quinault]

Did I not get the edict on how pain is un-Orthodox in nature?

[Quinault]

I would say that Orthodox clergy need to look at each person as an individual. Fr. Ambrose did exactly that. It isn't like he said he takes every young man to the tattoo parlor at the age of "x" and gives them a tattoo as a gift.

Really, give it a rest. This is looking more like a vendetta than a concern to  me.

[Veniamin]

I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

Depends on the surgery ... Anyway, nice try.   

Give it a rest, already.

Give it a rest?  Is it OK for Orthodox Clergy to finance the purchase of tattoos, which require the infliction of pain, as part of Orthodox Christian ministry?   

Since when is anything involving pain automatically evil?  Surgery involves pain.  Healing often involves pain.  Growing involves pain.  Why are you on a witch-hunt over something as trivial as a tattoo?  If that's what Irish Hermit believed would connect with the man in question and it apparently did reach him, why are you wasting time attacking him for it?  Aren't there more pressing things to be concerned with?

[ozgeorge]

^And don't knock Cross tattoos 

[zoarthegleaner]

Why not add skull at the bottom of the Cross Tattoo? 

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