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Riddikulus
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« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2009, 07:22:42 PM »

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

Dear SolEX01,

God knows.    I've given away dozens and dozens of icon prints.  Whether the recipients are brought closer to Christ, I do not know.  But I'll go on giving them out anyway.

Father, tattoos or icon prints or both?


Sol,

You don't seem to be following this thread very well. Father Ambrose not only gave this man a tattoo and icons, but also food and clothing. Time to back off, I think as you have become emotional about this issue. Just my thoughts on it.

Quote
Anyway, my Priest handed my estranged wife and me an icon print as well at the 40 day blessing of our son.  Six months later when I was down and out and despondent, I was ashamed to speak with him.  However, I do not have a permanent mark on my body just as I do not have the icon Print.  I do not understand why there is a need to inflict pain, like the tattooing process, to supposedly bring one closer to Christ?   Huh

The tattoo was given so that Nicholas wouldn't lose the gift; the pain of the gift he chose of his own freewill; no one forced him. And why do you seem to doubt that a tattoo could bring someone closer to Christ?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 07:26:22 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2009, 07:29:30 PM »

I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

Depends on the surgery ... Anyway, nice try.   Grin

Roll Eyes

Give it a rest, already.

Give it a rest?  Is it OK for Orthodox Clergy to finance the purchase of tattoos, which require the infliction of pain, as part of Orthodox Christian ministry?   Huh

I would say, yes it is. Nicholas got want he wanted; he's happy with his *painful* tattoo, so why are you exhibiting so much angst?
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« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2009, 07:57:55 PM »

Vendetta & witch-hunt....

A lot of strong words are being thrown around this thread and not one word has deviated from the thread's topic.

So, I keep the angst to myself and try to understand why a tattoo is appropriate when purchased by a clergyman.

Quote from: Veniamin
Since when is anything involving pain automatically evil?  Surgery involves pain.  Healing often involves pain.  Growing involves pain.  Why are you on a witch-hunt over something as trivial as a tattoo?  If that's what Irish Hermit believed would connect with the man in question and it apparently did reach him, why are you wasting time attacking him for it?  Aren't there more pressing things to be concerned with?

When did I say that anything involving pain was automatically evil?  In a prior response, I was going to mention the pain of childbirth until I realized that seeing the joy of a woman holding a newborn baby exceeds the pain experienced by the woman to give birth to said baby.

Of course there are more pressing things which merit concern and angst.  I am only one person; I find Father Ambrose's purchase of a tattoo troubling.  Since the rest of you apparently agree that there is no problem, I am saddened.   Sad  The following passage from the Thoughts in Christ Bulletin parallel my sentiments on this thread:

Quote
....We can go on indefinitely ignoring, justifying, and living with what conflicts with our consciences.  Never before has a civilization provided as many gadgets that draw us away from our scruples.  We have electronic and chemical devices which will put us in touch with anywhere on the planet except with that nook in our hearts that whispers to us who we really are and who we ought to be.

"Many passions lie hidden in our souls," writes St. Maximus (4:52).  Just to live in these times of confusion, turmoil and ongoing reevaluation of values is to appreciate how difficult it is for any of us to hold fast to the gospel teachings of Jesus Christ and to live by them.  There are those putting on all the trappings of a civilization out to scandalize traditional values -- the wild hair, the tattoos, the body pierced in so many areas, the raucous syncopated noise and bizarre costumes passing for clothing -- all of it demeaning, banal and all so obvious that what they intend to be shocking is but the uniform of a herd mentality for those without originality.  It causes me to cherish all the more those who have the soundness of mind to resist all of that.

Precious to me are those who serve as humble role models for others, who by their life styles, attitudes, courtesies and kindness make clear their intentions to cherish their brief years on earth serving the God who creates and sustains them by doing His will in His world.
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« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2009, 08:05:37 PM »

And that has what to do with yet another of your bizarre crusades?
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« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2009, 08:14:40 PM »

And that has what to do with yet another of your bizarre crusades?

What have you established by referring to my content as a "bizarre crusade?"
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« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2009, 08:16:36 PM »

And that has what to do with yet another of your bizarre crusades?

What have you established by referring to my content as a "bizarre crusade?"

What have you established by conducting said bizarre crusade?
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« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2009, 08:19:41 PM »

Vendetta & witch-hunt....

A lot of strong words are being thrown around this thread and not one word has deviated from the thread's topic.

So, I keep the angst to myself and try to understand why a tattoo is appropriate when purchased by a clergyman.

Quote from: Veniamin
Since when is anything involving pain automatically evil?  Surgery involves pain.  Healing often involves pain.  Growing involves pain.  Why are you on a witch-hunt over something as trivial as a tattoo?  If that's what Irish Hermit believed would connect with the man in question and it apparently did reach him, why are you wasting time attacking him for it?  Aren't there more pressing things to be concerned with?

When did I say that anything involving pain was automatically evil?  In a prior response, I was going to mention the pain of childbirth until I realized that seeing the joy of a woman holding a newborn baby exceeds the pain experienced by the woman to give birth to said baby.

Of course there are more pressing things which merit concern and angst.  I am only one person; I find Father Ambrose's purchase of a tattoo troubling.  Since the rest of you apparently agree that there is no problem, I am saddened.   Sad 

Sol,

I don't understand why you would be saddened that people are disagreeing with you; unless you are placing more importance upon one opinion over the other. What we have here is nothing more than a group of people with different concepts of what is acceptable. This conflict of opinion is nothing to get excited about, as far as I can see. Unless, of course, one is unable to allow people the freedom to do what they believe is acceptable even if one disagrees.
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« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2009, 08:21:27 PM »

What have you established by saying that I have allegedly conducted said bizarre crusade?

Friend, you don't like me for whatever reasons, my content, my Jurisdiction, my appearance, my presence on this board.  That's OK.  May God Bless You and sanctify you in all that you do.  Amen!
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« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2009, 08:23:03 PM »

May God Bless You and sanctify you in all that you do.  Amen!

Sweet!  I'm going to get a priest to pay for me to get a tattoo! laugh
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« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2009, 08:25:20 PM »

Sol,

I don't understand why you would be saddened that people are disagreeing with you; unless you are placing more importance upon one opinion over the other. What we have here is nothing more than a group of people with different concepts of what is acceptable.

Well, different concepts of what is acceptable has resulted in big trouble for some people here.  When content is referred to as a "bizarre crusade" then I have to draw the line somewhere.

This conflict of opinion is nothing to get excited about, as far as I can see. Unless, of course, one is unable to allow people the freedom to do what they believe is acceptable even if one disagrees.

Each is responsible for his/her actions.  Some have learned the hard way.  I am one of those people.
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« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »

May God Bless You and sanctify you in all that you do.  Amen!
Sweet!  I'm going to get a priest to pay for me to get a tattoo! laugh

Me, a Priest?   Huh  Shocked  Roll Eyes

You may not like me but you're funny.   Grin
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« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2009, 08:39:20 PM »

SolEX, there's more to it than the pain. There was more to Christ's suffering and dying on a Cross than the pain. It has to do with what is behind the action, and the intent of Fr. Ambrose's action was love. He stated that Nicholas' a-hole friends stole any presents of his within even a few hours. I believe a tattoo of the symbol of Christ's love from a priest who has given his own love for 2 decades is an appropriate priestly gesture of love because Fr. Ambrose was not acting in the role of a priest, but a Christian brother. Perhaps he has helped bring Nicholas closer to Christ by giving him a constant visible reminder of the One who has given the Ultimate Love through the Cross. It's kinda like the Catholic gesture of marking one's forehead, lips and heart with the sign of the Cross. Only in this case, Nicholas got a mark on the wrist! Grin
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« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2009, 11:21:45 PM »


Just to remark that part of our lack of mutual understanding may be cultural.  I live in the South Pacific where tattoos are a significant part of the local cultures, whether Maori or Samoan or other Polynesian cultures.   They are very common.  Nobody is offended by them and they do not denote that one is a member of the underworld or of the criminal classes.   Smiley

Here is a tattoo very similar to Nick's, except his is smaller and on his forearm.


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« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2009, 11:34:03 PM »

You may not like me but you're funny.   Grin

I don't dislike you personally.  I just don't put much stock in a lot of what you have to say.  There's a difference there.
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« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2009, 11:49:29 PM »

Cool tattoo Fr. Ambrose.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:49:47 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2009, 12:04:01 AM »

I am impressed OzGeorge you surprised me. Smiley

Nice tattoo..

I might also get one similar to yours in the near future.


God willing of course Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2009, 12:15:40 AM »

closer to Christ by giving him a constant visible reminder of the One who has given the Ultimate Love through the Cross.

Yes, Myrrh, you're right.  Nick had a Christian upbringing in one of his foster homes (Anglican).    He has been known to break into tears when he looks at the crosses in the church... "They pinned him up on a cross.  He died for us.  We ignore him."
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« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2009, 12:33:41 AM »

I don't dislike you personally.  I just don't put much stock in a lot of what you have to say.  There's a difference there.

I wish some of the people in my fraternal organization felt the same way you do.   Grin  Perfect reason for me to walk away.  Alas, that is not possible.   Sad

We come from different backgrounds.  To remain on point, while some cultures (as mentioned by Father Ambrose) view tattoos, piercings and body art as acceptable, I see it differently.  Does that disagreement justify referring to what I said as a bizarre crusade?

I respect you as a military attorney (Forgive me if I'm incorrect); Try not to malign everything I say just because you don't agree with it.   angel
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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2009, 12:42:34 AM »

We come from different backgrounds.  To remain on point, while some cultures (as mentioned by Father Ambrose) view tattoos, piercings and body art as acceptable, I see it differently.  Does that disagreement justify referring to what I said as a bizarre crusade?
I can understand that.
One of the Security Guards at the hospital where I sometimes work is Romanian and Orthodox, and he spotted my tattoo. He seemed to be in two minds about it. He liked the fact that it was an Orthodox Cross, but culturally for him "only criminals have tattoos". "Well", I said, "in the eyes of God, I am a criminal, so may be it is fitting that I should be branded as one!".
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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2009, 12:54:35 AM »

I can understand that.

Forgive me if I appear obstinate.   angel

One of the Security Guards at the hospital where I sometimes work is Romanian and Orthodox, and he spotted my tattoo. He seemed to be in two minds about it. He liked the fact that it was an Orthodox Cross, but culturally for him "only criminals have tattoos". "Well", I said, "in the eyes of God, I am a criminal, so may be it is fitting that I should be branded as one!".

While we may be all sinners, next month, people will be crucifying themselves in the Philippines to re-enact the Crucifixion of Christ.  Another example of how deliberate self-inflicting of pain is not quite what the Orthodox Praxis had in mind.   Huh

My estranged wife has two tattoos (all of her children are named on the tattoos); My sister's ex-boyfriend has tons of piercings and tattoos.  I can easily look past the tattoo, the piercing and never hold it against a person.   Smiley  Because I live with a family which is conservative and frowns upon tattoos, piercings and the like, I have resisted taking their views and developed my own view that the person is more important than the body art.

The difference occurs when an Orthodox clergyman admits to purchasing a tattoo regardless of cultural acceptance, et al.  If I were homeless and my Priest invited me into his House, he would expect me to get my act together and ultimately move out.  Edited at Poster's request.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:39:48 AM by ozgeorge » Logged
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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2009, 01:13:02 AM »

Edited at Poster's request.
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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2009, 01:19:52 AM »

SolEX01,
were you insinuating what Irish Hermit thinks you were insinuating?
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« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2009, 01:22:08 AM »

SolEX01,
were you insinuating what Irish Hermit thinks you were insinuating?


ABSOLUTELY, 100% NO!!
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« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2009, 01:22:56 AM »

Father, I pray you don't talk to your parishioners the way you talked to me.  The example I cited merely explained the escalation of a simple gift.  There was no accusation made nor any insinuation.  By completing and magnifying my post, you shined a purple demon on both of us.  My intent was to discuss; your intent apparently is to inflame.  Forgive me if you even thought for a nanosecond that I was trying to shed a negative light on you for I was talking only about myself....
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« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2009, 01:33:45 AM »

SolEX01,
were you insinuating what Irish Hermit thinks you were insinuating?


Dear George,

May I ask that in charity you delete this sentence from the end of Sol's post Edited at Poster's request.

and delete my scandalised reaction to it as well.

Sol speaks of escalation; in mind mind the escalation took place with that sentence of his.....  The clergy have to be always alert for this kind of innuendo.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:41:09 AM by ozgeorge » Logged
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« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2009, 01:34:46 AM »

SolEX01,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think we need to be careful how we word things. The typed word is quite unforgiving and lacks the nuances of the spoken word and body language.

Are we all agreed that the edits be made?
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« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2009, 01:37:14 AM »

SolEX01,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think we need to be careful how we word things. The typed word is quite unforgiving and lacks the nuances of the spoken word and body language.

Are we all agreed that the edits be made?

I am sorry Father Ambrose.

I am sorry George.

I meant no ill will.  Please make the necessary edits.
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« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2009, 01:41:03 AM »

SolEX01,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think we need to be careful how we word things. The typed word is quite unforgiving and lacks the nuances of the spoken word and body language.

Are we all agreed that the edits be made?

I am sorry Father Ambrose.

I am sorry George.

I meant no ill will.  Please make the necessary edits.

A cyber prostration.  Maybe I am too sensitive to what people say on this Forum.  Forgive me.
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« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2009, 01:43:00 AM »

All done!
Let's get back on track, and chase those Purple demons off!
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« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2009, 01:43:52 AM »

A cyber prostration.  Maybe I am too sensitive to what people say on this Forum.  Forgive me.

May God forgive us all.  Amen!
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« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2010, 10:12:56 PM »

Back when I was anti-Christian, I used to throw scriptures at Christians with tattoos like:

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD. Leviticus 19:28
and
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?  You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price.  Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

One response I found funny was "Yea my body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and these tattoos are the stained glass windows!" To which I replied, "Yea and this cigarette I'm smoking is the incense?"  Cheesy

Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.
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« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2010, 10:41:03 PM »

Quote
Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.

But why the perceived "need" to get a tattoo? (I'm not talking about the wrist or forehead tattoos of crosses of the Copts, which were, historically, done out of dire and genuine necessity). Is it not sufficient that Orthodox Christians wear a baptismal cross on their body? Maybe I'm getting old, but the push for "Orthodox tattoos" is a symptom at best of youthful exuberance; at worst, hubris. Ask the 18-25-year-olds in ten or twenty years' time who get themselves tattooed this: Are you still part (taking an active part) of the Orthodox Church? I suspect that a good number of folks who want to get "Orthodox tattoos" are subject to the phenomenon of "convertitis".
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« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2010, 12:13:22 AM »

Quote
Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.

But why the perceived "need" to get a tattoo? (I'm not talking about the wrist or forehead tattoos of crosses of the Copts, which were, historically, done out of dire and genuine necessity). Is it not sufficient that Orthodox Christians wear a baptismal cross on their body? Maybe I'm getting old, but the push for "Orthodox tattoos" is a symptom at best of youthful exuberance; at worst, hubris. Ask the 18-25-year-olds in ten or twenty years' time who get themselves tattooed this: Are you still part (taking an active part) of the Orthodox Church? I suspect that a good number of folks who want to get "Orthodox tattoos" are subject to the phenomenon of "convertitis".
All the better if they aren't: the tattoo remains as a sign calling them back.
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« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2010, 03:39:35 AM »

Quote
Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.

But why the perceived "need" to get a tattoo? (I'm not talking about the wrist or forehead tattoos of crosses of the Copts, which were, historically, done out of dire and genuine necessity). Is it not sufficient that Orthodox Christians wear a baptismal cross on their body? Maybe I'm getting old, but the push for "Orthodox tattoos" is a symptom at best of youthful exuberance; at worst, hubris. Ask the 18-25-year-olds in ten or twenty years' time who get themselves tattooed this: Are you still part (taking an active part) of the Orthodox Church? I suspect that a good number of folks who want to get "Orthodox tattoos" are subject to the phenomenon of "convertitis".
All the better if they aren't: the tattoo remains as a sign calling them back.

Agreed Smiley

I believe I will get a small one after my monastery trip and hopefully stay.
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"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved."
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